Affordable Housing Apartments Near The Katy Mills Mall

[usc619]

Here's the story

This is not good news for the Katy area, I think this may be the start of another Greenspoint and Sharpstown. I'm noticing alot of apartments going up around that area.....Harris co. zoning sucks

Edited March 24, 2010 by usc619

[porTENT]

Entropy exists.

You should fight this Katy residents.

[JLWM8609]

Low income apartments? OMG! That's going to ruin the beautiful landscape of Katy! The beigeness of the new strip centers and box stores sprouting up along the feeder roads, the cookie cutter subdivisions, the sloppy homemade signs on the roadsides, all ruined!

[usc619]

We already know Houston's zoning is crap(they don't have one), my point is it gets worse onces you're in unincorporated Harris co. It's bad enough that I have to see trash, homemade signs , trailer homes, warehouses and strip malls all over the place, but now I can add apartments to the list of my drive through Katy

One of the main reasons I'm always talking up Sugarland is because the Ft.Bend/Sugarland folks actually take pride in what goes in their area and how it's kept up.

The bottom line is you can't put a bunch of apartments in a concentrated area and think all of those renters are going to give a rats ass about what's going on with the care of our community

Greenspoint and Sharpstown are great examples......Sugarland on the other hand has done a great job with the First colony mall area

[kylejack]

The poors should come from distant locales to work in the food court at our fair mall and then immediately leave!

[AtticaFlinch]

It's bad enough that I have to see trash, homemade signs , trailer homes, warehouses and strip malls all over the place, but now I can add apartments to the list of my drive through Katy

That is terrible. Not as terrible as being poor, but still...

Obviously your aesthetic sensibilities are far more important than the rights of other people to live where they please in the manner they choose.

[kylejack]

They're going to completely ruin our empty field!

[jgriff]

That is terrible. Not as terrible as being poor, but still...

Obviously your aesthetic sensibilities are far more important than the rights of other people to live where they please in the manner they choose.

I don't think think not wanting to see trashy neighborhoods means that you want to tell people they can't live where they want to. I chose where I live purposely to avoid being near apartment complexes, freeways with billboards, car dealerships, convenience stores, etc... I don't like to see ugly parts of Houston when I'm driving home everyday. That doesn't mean that I think I should be able to stop someone from building apartments on their land or that I think I should be able to tell people that they can't live in my neighborhood. Pointing out that low income apartments are coming to Katy doesn't necessarily mean that you don't like poor people. It can help people make informed decisions on what neighborhood to live in.

[AtticaFlinch]

I don't think think not wanting to see trashy neighborhoods means that you want to tell people they can't live where they want to. I chose where I live purposely to avoid being near apartment complexes, freeways with billboards, car dealerships, convenience stores, etc... I don't like to see ugly parts of Houston when I'm driving home everyday. That doesn't mean that I think I should be able to stop someone from building apartments on their land or that I think I should be able to tell people that they can't live in my neighborhood. Pointing out that low income apartments are coming to Katy doesn't necessarily mean that you don't like poor people. It can help people make informed decisions on what neighborhood to live in.

From the article:

“Many of them aren’t even American citizens,” Elder added.

Elder's the Katy mayor, btw.

I think it's pretty clear his reason for opposing the complex, and I'm pretty sure you and I can agree that it's not because it'll ruin the pristine prarie landscape. That said, at least he's honest with his bigotry. I always prefer an honest bigot to a closeted bigot. Most (though undoubtably not all) of those other concerns are just word dressing to disguise the disgusting nature of dishonest bigotry. The real reason people oppose this apartment is because it's for poor people, and the likelihood is greater that a poor person won't be white, and there's a possibility that non-white people won't "even [be] American citizens".

[Jeebus]

Low income apartments? OMG! That's going to ruin the beautiful landscape of Katy! The beigeness of the new strip centers and box stores sprouting up along the feeder roads, the cookie cutter subdivisions, the sloppy homemade signs on the roadsides, all ruined!

I love the replies to threads like these. You should take the time using HAR.com's map search to see the median income of all the new homes being built around there and you'll see why low income apartments aren't welcome. I'd also invite you to show this forum where low income apartments in a middle (to upper middle class) suburban neighborhood in this metro HAVE actually worked.

The real reason people oppose this apartment is because it's for poor people, and the likelihood is greater that a poor person won't be white, and there's a possibility that non-white people won't "even [be] American citizens".

This is what it ALWAYS reverts to. The funniest part about your statement is the ignorance you yourself show by just assuming that Katy is "Aryan exclusive", and that the "coloreds" still aren't welcome.

ULTIMATELY, it has to do with money, and not race or ethnicity.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Jeebus

[kylejack]

ULTIMATELY, it has to do with money, and not race or ethnicity.

Then the mayor shouldn't be complaining about "many aren't even legal" when referring to residents of a housing complex that doesn't even exist yet.

[Jeebus]

Then the mayor shouldn't be complaining about "many aren't even legal" when referring to residents of a housing complex that doesn't even exist yet.

Elder said the housing complex could end up becoming a “slum area” because of poor maintenance and “transient” residents.

“Many of them aren’t even American citizens,” Elder added.

Where does he say "illegal" in the provided statements? I too agree with your inferrance, but who knows what the writer left out that would add context to a seemingly out of context statement like:

“Many of them aren’t even American citizens,” Elder added.

No matter his choice of words, it comes down to money. Apartments = turnover. Low Rent Apartments = higher turnover. Turnover = No pride in ownership. No pride in ownership = Little to no care for the community. Little to no care for the community = Decrease in property values.

Sharpstown, Gulfton, Greenspoint, Cypress Station, Hollister Crossing, Desoto, Gulfbank, Westwood, Clubcreek, Forum Park, ALL of Fondren, and the list goes on. How many failed examples of low rent apartment living must be provided before some of you in this forum can finally see the concern of politicians who represent those in neighborhood with a majority of 200K+ homes?

Edited March 24, 2010 by Jeebus

[AtticaFlinch]

Then the mayor shouldn't be complaining about "many aren't even legal" when referring to residents of a housing complex that doesn't even exist yet.

Maybe it's the all the Canadian and European immigrants he finds so loathesome. Maybe I was wrong to assume he was speaking of the majority of non-American people who live in low-income housing. Maybe it isn't about color...

[kylejack]

If Katy residents didn't want the wide open plains to be developed by someone else, they should have bought that land and put what they want on it.

[AtticaFlinch]

The funniest part about your statement is the ignorance you yourself show by just assuming that Katy is "Aryan exclusive", and that the "coloreds" still aren't welcome.

I didn't say that, but I'm sure the mayor thinks that. Perhaps it's you who shows his ignorance by assuming the mayor's innocence with such obviously racially-charged words.

[Jeebus]

I didn't say that, but I'm sure the mayor thinks that. Perhaps it's you who shows his ignorance by assuming the mayor's innocence with such obviously racially-charged words.

Racially charged words? I bet you must scream and writhe in agony every time you rip a band-aide off.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Jeebus

[AtticaFlinch]

Racially charged words? I bet you must scream and writhe in agony every time you rip a band-aide off.

How do you figure that? Band-aids have nothing to do with overt racism. I question your ability to draw rational conclusions.

Edit: No matter his choice of words, it comes down to money. Apartments = turnover. Low Rent Apartments = higher turnover. Turnover = No pride in ownership. No pride in ownership = Little to no care for the community. Little to no care for the community = Decrease in property values = Band-Aid ripping = Band-Aid screaming...

Edited March 24, 2010 by AtticaFlinch

[Jeebus]

If Katy residents didn't want the wide open plains to be developed by someone else, they should have bought that land and put what they want on it.

If life were so simple, right? I'm sure the complaint would then be that the residents of Katy, and all other places for that matter, are hogging up all the land in a monopoly.

How do you figure that? Band-aids have nothing to do with overt racism. I question your ability to draw rational conclusions.

Overt racism? Where does he make any reference to any race? Or are you just insinuating that since he's referencing poor people and illegals, then he must be a racist. Perhaps because this is the conclusion you drew when you read his statement?

[AtticaFlinch]

Overt racism? Where does he make any reference to any race? Or are you just insinuating that since he's referencing poor people and illegals, then he must be a racist. Perhaps because this is the conclusion you drew when you read his statement?

Am I going to have to break out some statistics showing that most poor immigrants are Hispanic in our fair city, or can you just take me on my word with this one?

[Jeebus]

Am I going to have to break out some statistics showing that most poor immigrants are Hispanic in our fair city, or can you just take me on my word with this one?

Ahhh, so because you know the statistical make up of the majority of the poor in Houston, you now have the ability to interpret the mindset and context of all that refer to said poor? If this were not Katy, or Tomball, or Conroe, I would have bowed out long ago - but considering the number of poor WHITE people in the rural areas adjacent to Katy and other predominantly white suburban areas, I simply can not.

[kylejack]

Maybe we could turn Brookshire into a poor colony or something, there's got to be somewhere that our food court and retail employees can work.

[kylejack]

I love the replies to threads like these. You should take the time using HAR.com's map search to see the median income of all the new homes being built around there and you'll see why low income apartments aren't welcome.

A word to the wise: Don't build an expensive house a stone's throw from the mall if you care about property values. If Estates at Grand Harbor want to play the boohoo my property values game they shouldn't have built their houses barely outside the Katy Mills ring road. What's on mall ring roads? Apartment complexes and fast food restaurants.

[Jeebus]

A word to the wise: Don't build an expensive house a stone's throw from the mall if you care about property values. If Estates at Grand Harbor want to play the boohoo my property values game they shouldn't have built their houses barely outside the Katy Mills ring road. What's on mall ring roads? Apartment complexes and fast food restaurants.

So now you're going to jump on the assumption bus too that all apartments built around malls are low-rent and that fast food restaurants are equated to bringing down a commercial areas property values as well? If so, then why are fast food restaurants always the first to be desired, requested, and then eventually built in almost EVERY new sub division, no matter the average home cost - especially in this city where people of all wealth levels live practically in the cars they commute in, and depend on drive-thru services for the majority their needs to be quickly met.

[august948]

So now you're going to jump on the assumption bus too that all apartments built around malls are low-rent and that fast food restaurants are equated to bringing down a commercial areas property values as well? If so, then why are fast food restaurants always the first to be desired, requested, and then eventually built in almost EVERY new sub division, no matter the average home cost - especially in this city where people of all wealth levels live practically in the cars they commute in, and depend on drive-thru services for the majority their needs to be quickly met.

Do the flies flock to the honey on their own or does the honey have to request that the flies swoop down on it?

[jgriff]

From the article:

Elder's the Katy mayor, btw.

I think it's pretty clear his reason for opposing the complex, and I'm pretty sure you and I can agree that it's not because it'll ruin the pristine prarie landscape. That said, at least he's honest with his bigotry. I always prefer an honest bigot to a closeted bigot. Most (though undoubtably not all) of those other concerns are just word dressing to disguise the disgusting nature of dishonest bigotry. The real reason people oppose this apartment is because it's for poor people, and the likelihood is greater that a poor person won't be white, and there's a possibility that non-white people won't "even [be] American citizens".

Your post that I was responding to seemed to be accusing another poster on this site of wanting to tell people where they can live. I was pointing out that he didn't say that.

Elder is another story.

[AtticaFlinch]

Ahhh, so because you know the statistical make up of the majority of the poor in Houston, you now have the ability to interpret the mindset and context of all that refer to said poor? If this were not Katy, or Tomball, or Conroe, I would have bowed out long ago - but considering the number of poor WHITE people in the rural areas adjacent to Katy and other predominantly white suburban areas, I simply can not.

I am then to assume that those po' white folks are not Americans?

I don't know why you're having a problem recognizing the racism in Elder's statement. Also, I don't take his view to be the view of all Katydids - just the 51% or more who voted him into office.

Your post that I was responding to seemed to be accusing another poster on this site of wanting to tell people where they can live. I was pointing out that he didn't say that.

Elder is another story.

Understood. And to clarify, I was telling him that his sensibilities don't outweigh the rights of other people.

[Jeebus]

Do the flies flock to the honey on their own or does the honey have to request that the flies swoop down on it?

I don't see many [flies] around Willowbrook, Baybrook, Deerbrook, Memorial City, or First Colony mall...

I am then to assume that those po' white folks are not Americans?

I don't know why you're having a problem recognizing the racism in Elder's statement. Also, I don't take his view to be the view of all Katydids - just the 51% or more who voted him into office.

Low-rent apartments are where most illegals are found, are they not? The problem I have in not being able to see the racism in his comment is the same as yours that seems to be stuck on it: perspective.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Jeebus

[AtticaFlinch]

Low-rent apartments are where most illegals are found, are they not?

I guess, I don't know. They might be in low-rent houses for all I know. The only place I know for sure where you can easily find illegals is in a Home Depot parking lot.

That said, now I'd like to bring up an interesting point. You chastised me for making several fact based assumptions, and now you've done the same but worse. You see, you just assumed the non-Americans were illegal, and that's not based on fact but hearsay. You made an assumption based on another assumption.

Also, even if most illegals are found in low-rent apartments, that doesn't mean all low-rent apartments have illegals. Surely you recognize that. The po' white folks in the surrounding backwoods may step away from their moonshine stills to become the only residents of this new complex. It's retarded to continue to make assumptions about who's going to live there at this point, and doing so highlights the assumer's ingrained biases.

The problem I have in not being able to see the racism in his comment is the same as yours that seems to be stuck on it: perspective.

If you say so. I personally think the difference is that you base your conclusions on denial and equivocation. It's not so much a difference in perspective as it is you're closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and loudly exclaiming, "La-la-la! I can't hear you! La-la-la!"

[kylejack]

I don't know why you're having a problem recognizing the racism in Elder's statement. Also, I don't take his view to be the view of all Katydids - just the 51% or more who voted him into office.

These days ol' Don runs unopposed, so we can't blame it on Katy majority anymore.

Low-rent apartments are where most illegals are found, are they not? The problem I have in not being able to see the racism in his comment is the same as yours that seems to be stuck on it: perspective.

Except the article says this is a public housing project, and to qualify for Section 8 and etc. you have to be a citizen or legal resident with path to citizenship.

Am I eligible? Eligibility for a housing voucher is determined by the PHA based on the total annual gross income and family size and is limited to US citizens and specified categories of non-citizens who have eligible immigration status.

http://www.hud.gov/offices/pih/programs/hcv/about/fact_sheet.cfm

Edited March 24, 2010 by kylejack

[AtticaFlinch]

These days ol' Don runs unopposed, so we can't blame it on Katy majority anymore.

In that case, I blame every resident of Katy who meets the criteria to run for office but didn't. That probably pushes the percentage of Katydids I blame up to 60 or 70%.

In the Senate they call those numbers a supermajority (unless the Democrats are in charge...).

[kylejack]

Would you want to run that place? I sure wouldn't!

[ricco67]

I don't know, I say we start a shanty town out by Cleveland, have it surrounded by troops and then have a high speed rail network to make sure they are able to work (if they do) in the city and leave promptly when their various shifts end.

[AtticaFlinch]

I don't know, I say we start a shanty town out by Cleveland, have it surrounded by troops and then have a high speed rail network to make sure they are able to work (if they do) in the city and leave promptly when their various shifts end.

I'm with you on everything but the high speed rail. The time of poor people isn't important. Let them walk to work. It may take a couple days, but hey, they're poor so who cares about them.

[usc619]

ABC13 news story

I thinks it's funny when people who don't even own a home in the area, have the nerves to pass judgment on why homeowners don't want the apartments built......Why don't you show up to the meeting and volunteer your neighborhood?

Edited March 25, 2010 by usc619

[VicMan]

I'll say the same thing I said on City Data - Because outsiders can rationally determine what is best not just for that neighborhood, but for the city as a whole - Homeowners in that area may be too emotionally involved (having a fear of losing property values, however unjustified, or however justified)

ABC13 news story

I thinks it's funny when people who don't even own a home in the area, have the nerves to pass judgment on why homeowners don't want the apartments built......Why don't you show up to the meeting and volunteer your neighborhood?

Let's look at this from an infrastructure standpoint.

1. What is the exact plot of land proposed for the new development?

2. What is the capacity of the proposed complex?

3. Will the roads be overcome with traffic?

4. Will the schools be overcrowded?

The intersection is Katy Fort Bend Road at Grand Harbor Drive, and it is outside of the Katy city limits. See the map - I don't know if it will be built to the north of Katy Fort Bend or to the south of Katy Fort Bend.

EDIT: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7348297 It will be east of Katy Fort Bend and north of Grand Harbor

EDIT: According to http://apps.katyisd.org/public/katyisdcampusmap/Default.aspx The proposed site will be zoned to West Memorial Elementary School, West Memorial Junior High School, and Katy High School - Of the schools only KHS serves portions of the City of Katy

In regards to all three schools, what is the building utilization like? How many people is this complex supposed to hold? About how many of them are supposed to be children?

Here are school population statistics of the schools that would take children from this complex:

* Katy High School: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/TX/schools/2517002809/school.aspx

* West Memorial Junior High School: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/TX/schools/2517002813/school.aspx

* West Memorial Elementary School: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/TX/schools/2517002812/school.aspx

I don't know the exact capacity of West Memorial Junior High School - Many middle schools are around 1200, but WM JH as about 800. I wonder if it can more easily take an increase in population.

Another point is that this complex is in proximity to the Energy Corridor, a major business district - One could say that one needs to have another Section 8 complex within a reasonable distance to the Energy Corridor.

Edited March 25, 2010 by VicMan

[usc619]

I'll say the same thing I said on City Data - Because outsiders can rationally determine what is best not just for that neighborhood, but for the city as a whole - Homeowners in that area may be too emotionally involved (having a fear of losing property values, however unjustified, or however justified)

Let's look at this from an infrastructure standpoint.

1. What is the exact plot of land proposed for the new development?

2. What is the capacity of the proposed complex?

3. Will the roads be overcome with traffic?

4. Will the schools be overcrowded?

The intersection is Katy Fort Bend Road at Grand Harbor Drive, and it is outside of the Katy city limits. See the map - I don't know if it will be built to the north of Katy Fort Bend or to the south of Katy Fort Bend.

EDIT: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7348297 It will be east of Katy Fort Bend and north of Grand Harbor

EDIT: According to http://apps.katyisd.org/public/katyisdcampusmap/Default.aspx The proposed site will be zoned to West Memorial Elementary School, West Memorial Junior High School, and Katy High School - Of the schools only KHS serves portions of the City of Katy

In regards to all three schools, what is the building utilization like? How many people is this complex supposed to hold? About how many of them are supposed to be children?

Here are school population statistics of the schools that would take children from this complex:

* Katy High School: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/TX/schools/2517002809/school.aspx

* West Memorial Junior High School: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/TX/schools/2517002813/school.aspx

* West Memorial Elementary School: http://www.schooldigger.com/go/TX/schools/2517002812/school.aspx

I don't know the exact capacity of West Memorial Junior High School - Many middle schools are around 1200, but WM JH as about 800. I wonder if it can more easily take an increase in population.

Another point is that this complex is in proximity to the Energy Corridor, a major business district - One could say that one needs to have another Section 8 complex within a reasonable distance to the Energy Corridor.

I responded on city-data

[AtticaFlinch]

ABC13 news story

I thinks it's funny when people who don't even own a home in the area, have the nerves to pass judgment on why homeowners don't want the apartments built......Why don't you show up to the meeting and volunteer your neighborhood?

If you just wanted this to be about you and your neighbors, then why'd you post this on a Houston board and City-Data, a national board. It seems to me you're not upset because we've passed judgement, but because the judgement we've passed doesn't mirror your own judgement.

[august948]

ABC13 news story

I thinks it's funny when people who don't even own a home in the area, have the nerves to pass judgment on why homeowners don't want the apartments built......Why don't you show up to the meeting and volunteer your neighborhood?

If you don't want the possibility of living near poor people then you had best buy your house deep in the heart of a large master plan community. It should be no surprise to homeowners not in cinco ranch that these things will get built.

[august948]

I don't see many [flies] around Willowbrook, Baybrook, Deerbrook, Memorial City, or First Colony mall...

Actually, I was referring to your comment about fast food restaurants and high end subdivisions. The flies will land (build) right outside the confines if that's where the money is at. A request or permission from the residents of the subdivisions in question isn't required.

[ricco67]

If you just wanted this to be about you and your neighbors, then why'd you post this on a Houston board and City-Data, a national board. It seems to me you're not upset because we've passed judgement, but because the judgement we've passed doesn't mirror your own judgement.

Isn't that basically human nature, to seek people that are like minded to and validate their own beliefs, morals, and ethics?

He simply doesn't want to post here because he has a cause (as self absorbed as it may be), but rather, hoping to be able to find someone that is sympathetic to him and his plight.

We all do that to a certain extent.

I say we build a shantytown.

But I think it should be in the outskirts of Sealy, that way they can just travel down I-10 to be able to deliver his pizza.

USC, I am curious to know if your prejudice would include luxury apartments as well?

[VicMan]

One of the things he said on city-data is that West Memorial elementary and junior high are relatively small for their size

I would like to see building utilization figures or capacity figures for the campuses. That way we can figure out if they can take more students easily.

West Memorial Elementary opened in 1973: http://web.archive.org/web/20060116130144/schools.katyisd.org/Portal/Default.aspx?tabid=60&campus=wme

The junior high opened in 1976: http://web.archive.org/web/20050206042956/schools.katyisd.org/Portal/Default.aspx?tabid=62&campus=wmjh

As I said earlier, being fairly close to the Energy Corridor may be a plus for the complex. After all someone needs to man the Energy Corridor sandwich shops, gas stations, retail stores, etc., and being close to work will be a plus for the residents.

[Fringe]

What if Asians moved into these apartments?  That would pose a driving risk for all Katians. 

[august948]

What if Asians moved into these apartments? That would pose a driving risk for all Katians.

Asians wouldn't move in. All the good Asian food and shopping is on Bellaire.

[LTAWACS]

From the article:

Elder's the Katy mayor, btw.

I think it's pretty clear his reason for opposing the complex, and I'm pretty sure you and I can agree that it's not because it'll ruin the pristine prarie landscape. That said, at least he's honest with his bigotry. I always prefer an honest bigot to a closeted bigot. Most (though undoubtably not all) of those other concerns are just word dressing to disguise the disgusting nature of dishonest bigotry. The real reason people oppose this apartment is because it's for poor people, and the likelihood is greater that a poor person won't be white, and there's a possibility that non-white people won't "even [be] American citizens".

So he doesn't like illegals. Boo hoo. Neither do many other Citizens.

[VicMan]

Elder's quote was “Many of them aren’t even American citizens,” -- had nothing to do with illegals

So he doesn't like illegals. Boo hoo. Neither do many other Citizens.

[LTAWACS]

Elder's quote was “Many of them aren’t even American citizens,” -- had nothing to do with illegals

I was quoting AtticaFinch who said:

Elder's the Katy mayor, btw.

I think it's pretty clear his reason for opposing the complex, and I'm pretty sure you and I can agree that it's not because it'll ruin the pristine prarie landscape. That said, at least he's honest with his bigotry. I always prefer an honest bigot to a closeted bigot. Most (though undoubtably not all) of those other concerns are just word dressing to disguise the disgusting nature of dishonest bigotry. The real reason people oppose this apartment is because it's for poor people, and the likelihood is greater that a poor person won't be white, and there's a possibility that non-white people won't "even [be] American citizens".

[AtticaFlinch]

I was quoting AtticaFinch who said:

Is the L invisible in my nom de internet? Does neither your keyboard nor Gary's keyboard have an L key?

Also, I never mentioned illegals. You may have quoted my post, but you weren't responding to it.

[Fringe]

Getting back on topic: Apartments may actually save the mall. It started out with a bang but went downhill quickly. (Unless things have drastically changed in the last year or two since I was there.). Only decent store is Bass Pro Shop. I wouldn't be surprised to see them leave when their lease is up. 

[LTAWACS]

Is the L invisible in my nom de internet? Does neither your keyboard nor Gary's keyboard have an L key?

Also, I never mentioned illegals. You may have quoted my post, but you weren't responding to it.

You have an L in your name? Strange... Gary cant see his posts - presumably because he blocked himself somehow - and I dont see an L in your user name. Interesting.

Yes, I did quote your post. I was adding that so what if Elder does not like illegals. Neither do many others.

[VicMan]

Yes, I did quote your post. I was adding that so what if Elder does not like illegals. Neither do many others.

So you inferred that Elder likely would not like illegals, but that was not directly supported by what Elder said. Next time, please make it clear and say "Based on what he said about non-Americans above, I would imagine that Elder would not like illegals either" or something like that.