Another Light Rail Train Hit By A METRO Bus

[kylejack]

I commute from downtown.

[tierwestah]

I'm completely agree with Citykid on this issue. For the past 6 or so years this train has been in operation, the only thing i've seen being done by METRO is them playing the blame game. Same thing after every crash, "It was the driver's fault". "It was the bus driver". It's obviously a poorly-designed system if so many people are having so much trouble.

The sad part is, the problem is only going to get worse when they add the new lines, especially the University Line. They need to build a grade-seperated system to prevent these things from happening. The man who ran the stop light and was killed by the metro train about 5 years ago may have been his fault, but that's still no excuse. Metro did the best they could to put Houston on the LRT map, but what i see happening now is just insanity, which is rightfully the definition: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

We need a new transportation agency. The people Metro ain't got a clue!

[JamesL]

What has it improved, speaking strictly statistically and nothing of aesthetics, about our public transportation infrastructure?

Well, it has resulted in many more people riding transit. Surveys have indicated that about 40% of METRORail riders are new to transit, i.e. they did not use METRO services before the rail opened.

And, although it is not true rapid transit, it has significantly sped up transit service in the corridor. The 1 bus takes 24 minutes to travel from Preston to what is now Cambridge, also along Fannin and Main. METRORail takes 18.

Its high capacity also greatly eases transportation to major events.

Just a few off the top of my head.

[houstonmacbro]

The sad part is, the problem is only going to get worse when they add the new lines, especially the University Line. They need to build a grade-seperated system to prevent these things from happening.

When I visited San Jose a couple of years back, I was amazed by their trains, which run AT STREET LEVEL. I am not sure of their accident rate, but it seems like people (pedestrian, bike, and car) watch where they are going and don't run into the trains. I think I remember seeing barricades of some sort, but can't really remember them being like that throughout the city.

[AtticaFlinch]

Since you claim to speak for the "rest of [the] workin' folk" in Houston, I assume you have a pretty good pulse on the city. So, I'd like to know what YOUR "realistic" expectation of what a city, Houston in particular, is supposed to be. (This should be good)

Why should I be called to task about my opinion? I'm not the one complaining that the city doesn't fit into my vision of what it should be versus what it actually is. That's in yours and citykid's purview, not mine. As such, your desire to want to know (and it should be oh so good) what my definition of a "realistic" (your quotes) expectation is for Houston is a specious diversionary tactic, another cheap rhetoric device and bordering on an ad hominem attack.

And, where did I claim to speak for all the workin' folk? You took an awfully broad interpretation of my words and twisted them in an effort to belittle me. That's weak.

And, so you know, I actually like Dallas. It must drive you nuts to know there are people who happen to like both cities and appreciate them for what they are, but you are delusional to think Dallas is a vastly superior place to Houston.

[citykid09]

Why should I be called to task about my opinion? I'm not the one complaining that the city doesn't fit into my vision of what it should be versus what it actually is. That's in yours and citykid's purview, not mine. As such, your desire to want to know (and it should be oh so good) what my definition of a "realistic" (your quotes) expectation is for Houston is a specious diversionary tactic, another cheap rhetoric device and bordering on an ad hominem attack.

And, where did I claim to speak for all the workin' folk? You took an awfully broad interpretation of my words and twisted them in an effort to belittle me. That's weak.

And, so you know, I actually like Dallas. It must drive you nuts to know there are people who happen to like both cities and appreciate them for what they are, but you are delusional to think Dallas is a vastly superior place to Houston.

I don't think anyone said that Dallas was superior to Houston. As far as living an actual urban life I believe Dallas is better. And even when METRO builds out all of the rail lines, METRO will still be inferior to DART no matter how many more people ride it. And if you are going to claim that more people are riding METRO rail than DART rail then why wouldn't you think that a higher capacity system work for Houston? After all it does have one of the highest rider-ships per mile in the US for a Light Rail System.

We can argue back and forth forever, but you can never be an Alpha world-class city without a world-class transit system and what METRO is building is not world class. Houston may be one of the fastest growing cities now, but in the future when a time comes when people don't drive as much, Houston will be left out and people will migrate to cities where they can get around without a car.

[kylejack]

I don't want to be an alpha city, seems like they're pretty expensive to live in.

[713 To 214]

Why should I be called to task about my opinion?

Well, I'll explain why. . . It's called a discussion.

discussion - (noun) an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate.

1. This discussion began by examining why a 2nd METRO Bus, in as many months, hit another METRO Rail car (at the exact same intersection). Out of that examination, the discussion moved to reasons why Houston METRO doesn't have, nor is planning, a grade separated rail system. It was pointed out that the current system, and planned expansion, is flawed in this regard (a belief widely shared on and outside this forum).

2. "editor" stated that "not enough people [in Houston] think it's worth the money" to have a grade separated/subway/elevated system. AND In an effort to show that other cities don't mind investing in their transit systems, "editor" went on to compare Houston to a much smaller city (approx 100,000 pop.) he's moving to, which has by contrast, voted to invest 2 billion in an underground light rail alignment in its Downtown.

3 citykid then suggested that "editor's" comments underscored his point that Houstonians haven't been willing to spend the money [to build a better rail system]. citykid then, by holding his point up as evidence, further suggested that if Houstonians felt slighted compared to other cities, then Houstonians only had themselves to blame because they haven't been willing to make the necessary investment [in rail, among other things].

4. You then challenged citykid's assertion by accusing citykid of not taking Houston "serious enough," and suggested his view of Houston falling short as a city, including Houston's lack of investment in a grade separated rail system, was "some goofy pie-in-the-sky expectation of what a city is supposed to be."

Now, in an effort to determine where you are coming from, and assuming you really believe that citykid's view is "some goofy pie-in-the-sky expectation of what a city is supposed to be," I simply ask you (again) what you think is a "realistic expectation" for Houston, specifically with regard to rail. AND, In light of the progression of this discussion, I don't think that's an unusual request nor diversionary in any way.

[citykid09]

And the stupidest thing I have seen yet is in this video. Whose idea was it to put a rail in the middle of a suburban style neighborhood. Is that supposed to be Richmond Ave. I don't blame the residents of that street for complaining. I have seen cities in 3rd world countries do better than this. You know I think a big problem is that most Houstonians don't have a clue whats going on with METRO thats why you don't hear all the people complaining about what is getting built.

[Highway6]

And the stupidest thing I have seen yet is in this video. Whose idea was it to put a rail in the middle of a suburban style neighborhood. Is that supposed to be Richmond Ave. I don't blame the residents of that street for complaining. I have seen cities in 3rd world countries do better than this. You know I think a big problem is that most Houstonians don't have a clue whats going on with METRO thats why you don't hear all the people complaining about what is getting built.

Are you suggesting that there is no need to waste stations that cater to 'residents only'?

Are you suggesting there is no need to waste stations on residents that can't bother to live in urban environments?

Are you suggesting that even in residential areas where there is plenty ROW for a street station, we should waste money,and increase construction time just to have an elevated or submerged station?

Be clear.. Why is it stupid?

Your suburban station in question ( Moody Park station ) is less than 2 miles north of downtown (Nowhere near Richmond). It's one of the poorer parts of town, vastly minority residents that rely on public transportation. It's laughable that some kid from the suburbs has deemed this neighborhood not urban enough to deserve rail.

In case you havent realized it yet, Houston doesnt have any Bronx style poorer neighborhoods. No 4 story tenements. Sorry.

And the fact that you phrased your complaint - " middle of a suburban style neighborhood" speaks volumes about where your head is at. It's all about image to you. It's all about what looks urban to you. Put advertisements and graffiti on the side of a horse drawn carriage, put it on an elevated guideway, and you'd be on the cloud 9 of urban ecstasy.

[JamesL]

I don't blame the residents of that street for complaining. I have seen cities in 3rd world countries do better than this. You know I think a big problem is that most Houstonians don't have a clue whats going on with METRO thats why you don't hear all the people complaining about what is getting built.

METRO provides plenty of information on their projects and initiatives if people cared to look. Unfortunately, most people get their exposure to METRO on the evening news when the story is about a crash or inappropriate relationship.

For everyone's information:

http://www.ridemetro.org/

http://www.metrosolutions.org/

http://www.gometrorail.org/

http://www.railmeansbusiness.com/

http://www.blogs.ridemetro.org/

These light rail lines will cut transit commute times to downtown in half for a lot of neighborhoods. Maybe that's why you don't hear them complaining.

[editor]

The people have not wanted to spend the money. Yet they complain that their city is not taken serious or looked at the same as the Chicagos, NYCs,or the LAs, its because you don't take your own city serious enough.

I think you're talking about two different groups of people there. There is a group who believes that Houston isn't as metropolitan as it should be. There is also a very strong, vocal, and intensely local group who love Houston the way it is, warts and all.

I don't think the two groups overlap all that much, though sometimes I'm of two minds.

When I lived in Houston, sometimes I would wish for a modern subway that would whisk me from downtown to the Galleria. And then I'd see (and photograph) someone riding a horse along 288, and think, "This is a perfect moment. Don't change anything, Houston."

[kylejack]

In related news, some drunk tow truck driver rammed some light rail poles and took out the rail service around the Museum District. The jerk made me late for work.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7339124

[AtticaFlinch]

I don't think anyone said that Dallas was superior to Houston. As far as living an actual urban life I believe Dallas is better.

Have you ever been to Dallas??? You have zero credibility with anything pertaining to urbanity.

We can argue back and forth forever, but you can never be an Alpha world-class city without a world-class transit system and what METRO is building is not world class. Houston may be one of the fastest growing cities now, but in the future when a time comes when people don't drive as much, Houston will be left out and people will migrate to cities where they can get around without a car.

One, who gives a crap about alpha? Save that discussion for the other thread exactly about that. Two, people are migrating here regardless of your pie-in-the-sky ideas of what a city should be. You know why?? It's not the rail, and it's not the density, and it's not the neat-o tall buildings... in the phrasing so popular with former president Bill Clinton, "It's the economy, stupid."

Well, I'll explain why. . . It's called a discussion.

discussion - (noun) an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate.

Great... beginning a retort with a dictionary definition. Now I know I'm talking with an expert.

I tell you what... rather than chase this bunny all the way into Wonderland, how about I just defer to you and your particular brand of self-loathing? Frankly, I don't want to participate in a discussion with you. If you were to offer helpful criticisms of the system in place, or if you were to make astute observations beyond the ridiculously subjective comments that seem to spew forth from your fingertips like vomit, then perhaps we could talk. You see, I recognize the system isn't perfect, but it's not a polarized issue like you and citykid are so intent on framing it either. If you wish to have a rational discussion, we can. But I will not be baited into some insipid off-topic tangent about what my idea is of a city-sized utopia. I don't care how impressive your copy/paste skills are. I won't be hoodwinked into buffoonery simply because you have mad linking skillz.

[Fringe]

I like Dallas.  I would like it even more if it was in Texas and not Oklahoma. 

[editor]

Whose idea was it to put a rail in the middle of a suburban style neighborhood.

Isn't putting trains where people are a good thing? It's an LRT vehicle, not a commuter rail train.

I have seen cities in 3rd world countries do better than this.

I doubt you've been to any third world countries.

[editor]

We can argue back and forth forever, but you can never be an Alpha world-class city without a world-class transit system and what METRO is building is not world class. Houston may be one of the fastest growing cities now, but in the future when a time comes when people don't drive as much,

Brussels is a world-class city, and what Metro is building is nearly identical to the Brussels Metro. Ditto for Amsterdam, another world-class city. And Seattle, though I'm not entirely convinced that Seattle qualifies as "world class."

Istanbul's metro is virtually identical to what Metro is doing, except that it has a couple of underground funicular railways for the big hills, and also has a modern subway network. Perhaps one day when the people are ready for it, Metro will add a subway component like Istanbul did. That's what happened in Vienna (another world class city). It started out with surface vehicles like Metro's and expanded into subways when the demand was high enough.

I think it's folly to assume that the Houston Metro system you see today is going to be identical to the Houston Metro system 50 years from now.

Houston will be left out and people will migrate to cities where they can get around without a car.

Well, at least that much I'll agree with you on. When I made my list of cities I was considering moving to this year, the finalists were Houston, San Francisco, Boston, and Seattle. Boston was eliminated because of weather. San Francisco was eliminated because of taxes. Houston was eliminated because its public transit system isn't mature enough.

A few years from now I'll put together another list when I decide to move again. I'm sure Houston will be a finalist again.

[713 To 214]

I think you're talking about two different groups of people there. There is a group who believes that Houston isn't as metropolitan as it should be. There is also a very strong, vocal, and intensely local group who love Houston the way it is, warts and all.

I don't think the two groups overlap all that much, though sometimes I'm of two minds.

When I lived in Houston, sometimes I would wish for a modern subway that would whisk me from downtown to the Galleria. And then I'd see (and photograph) someone riding a horse along 288, and think, "This is a perfect moment. Don't change anything, Houston."

Which group do you think is winning the debate over how Houston should be shaped/developed in the future, and specifically how the rail system should be designed? It seems that the car culture is still pretty dominant in Houston, and Houstonians are more willing to invest hundreds of millions in stadiums before rail.

[AtticaFlinch]

Which group do you think is winning the debate over how Houston should be shaped/developed in the future, and specifically how the rail system should be designed? It seems that the car culture is still pretty dominant in Houston, and Houstonians are more willing to invest hundreds of millions in stadiums before rail.

Neither group is winning. It's been a process of compromises. Perhaps this is where our disconnect lies. You see this as a competition, and you shouldn't.

[713 To 214]

Brussels is a world-class city, and what Metro is building is nearly identical to the Brussels Metro. Ditto for Amsterdam, another world-class city. And Seattle, though I'm not entirely convinced that Seattle qualifies as "world class."

To what part of Brussels METRO are you referring? I've ridden the system a number of times, and I can tell you first hand that most of the Brussels METRO is heavy rail/subway (4 lines). Even the 2 light rail lines in the system run mostly underground, and as I understand, were built to be convertible over to heavy rail in the future. I think the systems are very different.

[editor]

To what part of Brussels METRO are you referring? I've ridden the system a number of times, and I can tell you first hand that most of the Brussels METRO is heavy rail/subway (4 lines). Even the 2 light rail lines in the system run mostly underground, and as I understand, were built to be convertible over to heavy rail in the future. I think the systems are very different.

I'm talking about the portions that are streetcars that go both above and below ground. The lines I used most ended at Brussels Midi, and up on the hill by the big city park and the palace. I have pictures, but I'm not at home so here's some from the interweb:

I'm not sure it's correct to say that Brussels metro is mostly heavy rail. According to wikimopedia, Brussels has one of the ten largest tram systems in the world.

While they certainly do run underground in the heart of the city, most of what I've ridden is above ground, and mingles with traffic like Houston's light rail. I don't think it would be easily converted to heavy rail without getting rid of all the cars.

[citykid09]

I want to thank the editor for his constructive criticism of my replies. You and a few others are some of the only ones who are willing to go against the other side. I also want to say that I have looked up Brussels METRO and can see no similarities what so ever to Houston's rail. I see they have a full fledged subway system and I also see that they have a newer light rail as well but the way they implement it is nothing like what you see in Houston. Take a look at this video of their light rail:

You know you could also say that San Fransisco, and LA have light rail, but its in addition to their heavy rail and its implemented more like heavy rail.

You almost had me on Amsterdam, their light rail in certain parts travel completely in the road with cars, people, and bikes (it acts as more of a street car). But then i noticed that it also goes into underground subways. But thats not the good part! Amsterdam not only has light rail, it has many different types of heavy rail, take a look at this video:

Lets see if we can find some world class metros without a world class rail network.

FYI: I posted this before I knew you posted the post above me editor.

[kylejack]

I wonder why a city founded over 1000 years ago has a more developed transit system than a city founded 270 years ago.

[VicMan]

I wonder why a city founded over 1000 years ago has a more developed transit system than a city founded 270 years ago.

...especially a city which began to expand rapidly in 1950s, which was an era when freeways were built and public transit was not as prevalent in urban development. It is understandable why Houston is where it is now.

[ricco67]

according to the census data, Houston didn't become a top 10 city until the 1960's with a population of 938K.

<link>

[Jeebus]

I wonder why a city founded over 1000 years ago has a more developed transit system than a city founded 270 years ago.

It probably has NOTHING to do with post WW2 growth.

[samagon]

I wonder why a city founded over 1000 years ago has a more developed transit system than a city founded 270 years ago.

how old is their tram/metro/rail system compared with ours?

[kylejack]

Its not really even comparable because they have different market pressures. In particular, Europe's massive gas taxes make ridership much higher. We can't implement that on a localized scale in Houston because people will just gas up in Spring or whatever. Besides, I'm not even sure it would be legal...

[C2H]

I don't think anyone said that Dallas was superior to Houston. As far as living an actual urban life I believe Dallas is better.

Citykid09 are you kidding me? You've become quite the downer lately. I agree with most your points on Houston's current rail system but to say Dallas is more urban than Houston tells me that you haven't spent much time in Dallas. Houston's core is denser as far as people and restaurants, but lacking on Light rail (AT THE MOMENT)

Dallas may be ahead as far as urban developments like rail and TODS but that doesn't make it more urban because it these two things going for it. Most of the time when i visit Dallas, it feels like an empty movie set that has all these cool urban developments, but not very many people actually walking the streets using them.

You need to learn the definition of URBAN. Sorry buddy!

[editor]

I see they have a full fledged subway system and I also see that they have a newer light rail as well but the way they implement it is nothing like what you see in Houston.

You are looking at one station in a vast network. The majority of Brussels metro is above ground, runs on streets next to traffic, and looks very similar to Houston's light rail. There is a small portion which runs underground in the downtown section and ties into the subway system. This is also the case for Amsterdam's metro. And Vienna's. And the SLUT in Seattle.