George HW Bush Heckled in Houston Restaurant

[ricco67]

It was an inappropriate display whether or not you care for the Bush family. Bush 41 is a very kind person, and was a decent president. Bush 43 - strayed from core values to appease liberals, and as a result he ended up being disliked by all. But not even Bush 43 deserves to be treated like this.

Obama will (opinion now, soon to be fact) go down in history as the worst president this country ever elected, and even I, with my absolute contempt of the man, would never speak to him like that.

To be fair, many thought Clinton was going to be the worst president ever and I was one of them. I'm glad that I was proven wrong and looking back he turned out to be one of our better ones.

Only history can show how well a president does.

[IronTiger]

Marksmu put it well: even if you totally hate a former president's politics, you just shouldn't do things like that. At all.

[N Judah]

It was an inappropriate display whether or not you care for the Bush family. Bush 41 is a very kind person, and was a decent president. Bush 43 - strayed from core values to appease liberals, and as a result he ended up being disliked by all. But not even Bush 43 deserves to be treated like this.

I disagree...it was fine. Sometimes you have to take the bad with the good...even when "taking the bad" means eating pizza and letting the SS do the talking for you. If it makes you feel better, I'm sure he cried himself to sleep on top of piles and piles of money.

Obama will (opinion now, soon to be fact) go down in history as the worst president this country ever elected, and even I, with my absolute contempt of the man, would never speak to him like that.

Hey, good for you!

[kylejack]

Marksmu put it well: even if you totally hate a former president's politics, you just shouldn't do things like that. At all.

I disagree, you should say what you think.

[TJones]

Legislation (enacted in 1997) limits SS protection for former Presidents to 10 years after leaving office. "W" will be the first one to be affected by this. This seems to be a really really bad idea. I hope they re-think this. The "HW" incident shows they need the protection for life.

HW Bush can just hire some Blackwater folks and I am SURE that there will never be another incident of heckling, at least no videotaped evidence of it from the heckler themselves. Or, even a heckler to speak of.

[N Judah]

Would the heckler have been so bold if he had not filmed his interaction?

I think he was making a movie or something. But it's good to film it just in case one of the SS guys did something stupid.

[AtticaFlinch]

HW Bush can just hire some Blackwater folks and I am SURE that there will never be another incident of heckling, at least no videotaped evidence of it from the heckler themselves. Or, even a heckler to speak of.

Don't you think the crime of murder is a bit over the top in dealing with a heckler? And, don't you think murder is a bit worse than heckling? When Joe Wilson heckled Obama, Fox News pundits were calling him a hero. When some unknown yahoo heckles George I, some HAIFers are demanding blood in return. Is heckling noble or not? Is it a crime punishable by death? Why didn't the same people here calling for Blackwater and the Secret Service to commit a capital crime also call for Joe Wilson to die under mysterious circumstances? If you're going to demand draconian justice, you need to be consistent. Otherwise, it just sounds like more partisan bluster.

[AtticaFlinch]

I don't think it's fair to try to characterize past Presidents on a generalized good/bad or success/failure spectrum. It's oversimplistic.

And when you're posting on an internet forum where people tend not to read the entire post if it extends beyond a second paragraph, simplicity can be a thing of beauty. I could go through a list of Bush I's accomplishments and detail the nuances of his character traits to paint a portrait of a complex man who occupied a high-pressure position at a transition point in human history, and I could spend hours doing that, ensuring all my facts are correct and cited properly (as otherwise, since this is the internet, some hack would write "fail" if I don't), or I could just say history will view the man indifferently.

I took the path of least resistance.

[TheNiche]

And when you're posting on an internet forum where people tend not to read the entire post if it extends beyond a second paragraph, simplicity can be a thing of beauty. I could go through a list of Bush I's accomplishments and detail the nuances of his character traits to paint a portrait of a complex man who occupied a high-pressure position at a transition point in human history, and I could spend hours doing that, ensuring all my facts are correct and cited properly (as otherwise, since this is the internet, some hack would write "fail" if I don't), or I could just say history will view the man indifferently.

I took the path of least resistance.

Then why bother at all?

[IronTiger]

I disagree, you should say what you think.

Sure, but in his face? In public?

(Also remember that "free speech" doesn't include libel/slander)

[kylejack]

Sure, but in his face? In public?

He was not in his face, he was about 30 feet away. In public is fine.

(Also remember that "free speech" doesn't include libel/slander)

It was a matter of his opinion, not slander.

[TheNiche]

When Joe Wilson heckled Obama, Fox News pundits were calling him a hero. When some unknown yahoo heckles George I, some HAIFers are demanding blood in return.

So you're comparing two different situations, one in which some talking heads that get paid to deliberately stir the pot made a comment pertaining to an situation involving a sitting president, to another in which **you perceive** that some relatively anonymous person on the internet is emoting an opinion over a situation involving a powerless old man. How insightful.

Frankly, what TJones said was also the very first thing that popped into my mind when I read that George W. Bush wouldn't be receiving Secret Service protection. And it's probably true...he'll hire private security contractors. It's what I'd do if I were him. Blackwater came to mind as an appropriate candidate. And given Blackwater's past, I didn't think it unreasonable to expect that they might use excessive force to deal with a heckler. Depending on how you read into TJones' post, it seems just as reasonable to believe that he's supportive of Blackwater's reputation as that he's critical of them.

[AtticaFlinch]

Then why bother at all?

Why not? I'm occupying downtime while in the office, not writing a masters thesis. When I have more time (and concern for the subject matter), I'll give the post more thought. As it stands, my workload has steadily been picking up and my concern for the topics have waned. Theres an inverse relationship between the two.

[TheNiche]

Why not?

Wonderful, you're answering a question with a question.

[AtticaFlinch]

So you're comparing two different situations, one in which some talking heads that get paid to deliberately stir the pot made a comment pertaining to an situation involving a sitting president, to another in which **you perceive** that some relatively anonymous person on the internet is emoting an opinion over a situation involving a powerless old man. How insightful.

I will not get baited into a long conversation about this (I hope), but to call the former president a "powerless old man" isn't exactly being truthful. George I, even though no longer the president, is hardly powerless (though I'll concede "old man").

Also, you're either wrong about what I was comparing, or you're now taking the opportunity to make the oversimplistic statement. The public outcries, while not secondary, are the results of the comparisons, not the meat. The comparison was between two incidents where American statesmen were heckled. If you can think of a more recent example to compare this Bush situation to that's more relevant, I'd be happy to hear it. As it stands, this is what I'm working with as it's what I've got to work with. And, this comparison was intended to highlight the hypocrisy inherent in insipid partisanship. If anything, the average American should be more incensed Obama, our sitting president and our mouthpiece to the rest of the world, one of the most powerful men in the world, was heckled than a simple "powerless old man." Heckling Obama is demeaning to our country at large. Heckling Bush I... it speaks to the character of the heckler, and little else. The heckler obviously lacks class, but considering he was voicing his disapproval of Bush I and not threatening his life, I think it's irresponsible to suggest the heckler's murder is an appropriate punishment.

[kylejack]

I always liked this one after Katrina [adult language again]

[TheNiche]

I will not get baited into a long conversation about this (I hope), but to call the former president a "powerless old man" isn't exactly being truthful. George I, even though no longer the president, is hardly powerless (though I'll concede "old man").

Also, you're either wrong about what I was comparing, or you're now taking the opportunity to make the oversimplistic statement. The public outcries, while not secondary, are the results of the comparisons, not the meat. The comparison was between two incidents where American statesmen were heckled. If you can think of a more recent example to compare this Bush situation to that's more relevant, I'd be happy to hear it. As it stands, this is what I'm working with as it's what I've got to work with. And, this comparison was intended to highlight the hypocrisy inherent in insipid partisanship. If anything, the average American should be more incensed Obama, our sitting president and our mouthpiece to the rest of the world, one of the most powerful men in the world, was heckled than a simple "powerless old man." Heckling Obama is demeaning to our country at large.

I'm sorry, but yours was just a weak analogy. There's a big difference between criticism leveled by a pundit against a sitting president and the heckling of a person that holds no political office. And just because you (or the general public) aren't aware of a more comparable situation that you can use in an analogy that supports your opinion doesn't make this situation workable to that end.

Heckling Bush I... it speaks to the character of the heckler, and little else. The heckler obviously lacks class, but considering he was voicing his disapproval of Bush I and not threatening his life, I think it's irresponsible to suggest the heckler's murder is an appropriate punishment.

Nobody in this thread suggested that the murder of a heckler is an appropriate punishment. You read something into what TJones said that wasn't there.

[kylejack]

Perhaps "we want a batter, not a broken ladder" would be a more apt comparison.

[Fringe]

Nobody in this thread suggested that the murder of a heckler is an appropriate punishment. You read something into what TJones said that wasn't there.

Actually I did but don't pay any attention to me. I'm just a firm believer in "thinning the herd" and don't believe some people should be allowed to breed. This includes people who drive slow in the left lane.

 

[N Judah]

If anything, the average American should be more incensed Obama, our sitting president and our mouthpiece to the rest of the world, one of the most powerful men in the world, was heckled than a simple "powerless old man." Heckling Obama is demeaning to our country at large. Heckling Bush I... it speaks to the character of the heckler, and little else. The heckler obviously lacks class, but considering he was voicing his disapproval of Bush I and not threatening his life, I think it's irresponsible to suggest the heckler's murder is an appropriate punishment.

And it's not like Obama's heckler couldn't have just contacted him personally/privately to voice his opinion, gone through traditional party methods of communication, or even gone on Fox News for a good old fashioned rant. But for GHW Bush's heckler this was probably the only way he would ever be able to ask the questions he thought needed asking.

[Marksmu]

The big difference between what Joe Wilson did and what this low life piece of trash did is that Bush 41 was just sitting there in a restaurant minding his own business. With the Joe Wilson "you lie" comment, Obama was standing on stage, talking to Congress, and the entire world, lieing to everyone that Illegal Immigrants would not be covered, when it was clear as day in the then current text that was being discussed that they indeed would be covered. In fact, the evil republicans attempted to insert a single sentence that made explicit, instead of implied, that illegals would not be covered, and it was immediately rejected.

The real difference is Bush was sitting down minding his own business and Obama was addressing the world. Bush was not actively lieing, and Obama was. When a person is standing in front of you, lieing to your face, its not unheard of to call them out and say, "hey dumb turd you are lieing". That is what happened. I dont think what Wilson did was necessarily appropriate and it was certainly rude, but given the inclusiveness and openness of the Democrats throughout the health care debate, it was probably the only time they listened to what the opposition had to say.

[ricco67]

The big difference between what Joe Wilson did and what this low life piece of trash did is that Bush 41 was just sitting there in a restaurant minding his own business. With the Joe Wilson "you lie" comment, Obama was standing on stage, talking to Congress, and the entire world, lieing to everyone that Illegal Immigrants would not be covered, when it was clear as day in the then current text that was being discussed that they indeed would be covered. In fact, the evil republicans attempted to insert a single sentence that made explicit, instead of implied, that illegals would not be covered, and it was immediately rejected.

The real difference is Bush was sitting down minding his own business and Obama was addressing the world. Bush was not actively lieing, and Obama was. When a person is standing in front of you, lieing to your face, its not unheard of to call them out and say, "hey dumb turd you are lieing". That is what happened. I dont think what Wilson did was necessarily appropriate and it was certainly rude, but given the inclusiveness and openness of the Democrats throughout the health care debate, it was probably the only time they listened to what the opposition had to say.

What Joe Wilson did was inexcusable and uncalled for. There is a time and place to call out the president, particularly if you're in the political process. To do so in a public chamber being broadcast over the entire world, shows a complete lack of respect for the office.

And you have to remember, *I* am not a fan of Obama.

[AtticaFlinch]

The big difference between what Joe Wilson did and what this low life piece of trash did is that Bush 41 was just sitting there in a restaurant minding his own business. With the Joe Wilson "you lie" comment, Obama was standing on stage, talking to Congress, and the entire world, lieing to everyone that Illegal Immigrants would not be covered, when it was clear as day in the then current text that was being discussed that they indeed would be covered. In fact, the evil republicans attempted to insert a single sentence that made explicit, instead of implied, that illegals would not be covered, and it was immediately rejected.

The real difference is Bush was sitting down minding his own business and Obama was addressing the world. Bush was not actively lieing, and Obama was. When a person is standing in front of you, lieing to your face, its not unheard of to call them out and say, "hey dumb turd you are lieing". That is what happened. I dont think what Wilson did was necessarily appropriate and it was certainly rude, but given the inclusiveness and openness of the Democrats throughout the health care debate, it was probably the only time they listened to what the opposition had to say.

A public figure is a public figure. When you get into the line of work both Bush I and Obama had/have gotten themselves into, you open yourself up to the public for the rest of your life. Don't confuse the aging Bush with your own grandfather. They operate on two totally different planes, and made much different life choices. Bush and Obama chose the life, and they both chose the public scrutiny that came along with it. No one is more innocenter than the other. Neither heckle is more justifiable than the other. If one is bad and horrible and tasteless, they're both bad and horrible and tasteless. You can't sugarcoat one event simply because you agree with the perpetrator and decry the other because you disagree. If you do, it makes you a hypocrite, and that's the entire point I was trying to make.

For the record, I think both hecklers are classless idiots, though neither one moreso than the other.

[Marksmu]

A public figure is a public figure. When you get into the line of work both Bush I and Obama had/have gotten themselves into, you open yourself up to the public for the rest of your life. Don't confuse the aging Bush with your own grandfather. They operate on two totally different planes, and made much different life choices. Bush and Obama chose the life, and they both chose the public scrutiny that came along with it. No one is more innocenter than the other. Neither heckle is more justifiable than the other. If one is bad and horrible and tasteless, they're both bad and horrible and tasteless. You can't sugarcoat one event simply because you agree with the perpetrator and decry the other because you disagree. If you do, it makes you a hypocrite, and that's the entire point I was trying to make.

For the record, I think both hecklers are classless idiots, though neither one moreso than the other.

Im not sure it shows a lack of respect for the office, as much as a lack of respect for the individual holding the office. And I certainly agree that both acts are classless...the difference is one was actively lieing - the other was not doing or saying anything. A person is much more prone to call out a lie as it is occurring and in the heat of the moment. I excuse one SLIGHTLY more than the other, though both are classless.

I am not pretending to sugar coat one, I think one is more reprehensible....It is hard to sit back and be lied too - I do not like Obama, and I dont agree with what Joe Wilson did, but I understand.

[kylejack]

If you don't like a guy, feel free to tell him so.

[AtticaFlinch]

Im not sure it shows a lack of respect for the office, as much as a lack of respect for the individual holding the office. And I certainly agree that both acts are classless...the difference is one was actively lieing - the other was not doing or saying anything. A person is much more prone to call out a lie as it is occurring and in the heat of the moment. I excuse one SLIGHTLY more than the other, though both are classless.

I am not pretending to sugar coat one, I think one is more reprehensible....It is hard to sit back and be lied too - I do not like Obama, and I dont agree with what Joe Wilson did, but I understand.

So, by that very same logic, while you may disagree with that Iraqi guy who threw his shoe at Bush 2.0, you understand it?

[Marksmu]

So, by that very same logic, while you may disagree with that Iraqi guy who threw his shoe at Bush 2.0, you understand it?

Dont know if Bush was lying when the shoe was thrown, but if he was mid lie then I absolutely understand it...though getting physical is certainly stepping it up a notch.

[AtticaFlinch]

Dont know if Bush was lying when the shoe was thrown, but if he was mid lie then I absolutely understand it...though getting physical is certainly stepping it up a notch.

So... only in mid-lie is it ok to heckle? Is there a grace period before and after the lie in which it's still ok to heckle? If so, what's the time limit? If there's a precise time limit (or even a socially acceptable range), how did we arrive at that number? By consortium? A panel of experts? Maybe the president sets the acceptable standard?

I don't know these things, that's why I'm asking.

[24zulu]

Actually I did but don't pay any attention to me. I'm just a firm believer in "thinning the herd" and don't believe some people should be allowed to breed. This includes people who drive slow in the left lane.

Fringe, I'm with you 100%, but in your extinction manifesto, you've neglected ( I'm sure it was just an over-sight ) to mention the road-cyclists who own the roads ( And dare you to hit them ), and wear those very sexy skin tight outfits that show off their ham & gut deformities that we all hoard ( hor-ed, whor'd, ...sp ) photos of. Amid their intellectually heated discussions of better water bottle technologies, and surface tire pressures, I doubt they would ever heckle a former president.

By the way Attica, Joe the Plumber was killed by ( Then ) candidate Obama's security forces. Blackwater had a look-a-like ready to be paraded around to cover it up.

[VicMan]

One interesting fact about the Persian Gulf War is that we basically invited Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait. There was an American diplomat named April something who told Hussein's people that America had no interest in Iraq's dispute with Kuwait prior to the invasion. To Hussein it must have seemed like a green light.

In a book I read, Saddam knew that the U.S. wasn't going to be happy about Iraq invading, and that Saddam knew that what Glaspie was saying was just standard diplomat stuff. He didn't get any wrong signals from the Glaspie meeting. AFAIK the book was House of Bush, House of Saud, but I forget the page number.