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Oak Forest Information & Developments


Orikal

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The Real Estate forum didn't seem quite appropriate, but please feel free to move if need be.

We've put an offer on a home in Oak Forest priced around $140 sq/ft. Our realtor emailed us a list of all homes in sold in the area over the past couple months, and it appears most homes have gone for about 97-98% of their asking price. The average price per sq/ft seems to be $115-120 for that neighborhood. Using that calculation, the home appears to be priced roughly $15K too high, although it is on a nice street, doesn't need a lot of work, has a nice big lot, but the house is small.

The seller's agent has already let ours know that they previously declined a higher offer.

For those familiar with the market in that area; what are your thoughts? How do you feel about value enhancement in that neighborhood? We love the house, and may be willing to pay a little more than we perhaps should if we think we can get a decent return on our money 8-10 years down the road.

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The Real Estate forum didn't seem quite appropriate, but please feel free to move if need be.

We've put an offer on a home in Oak Forest priced around $140 sq/ft.  Our realtor emailed us a list of all homes in sold in the area over the past couple months, and it appears most homes have gone for about 97-98% of their asking price.  The average price per sq/ft seems to be $115-120 for that neighborhood.  Using that calculation, the home appears to be priced roughly $15K too high, although it is on a nice street, doesn't need a lot of work, has a nice big lot, but the house is small.

The seller's agent has already let ours know that they previously declined a higher offer.

For those familiar with the market in that area; what are your thoughts?  How do you feel about value enhancement in that neighborhood?  We love the house, and may be willing to pay a little more than we perhaps should if we think we can get a decent return on our money 8-10 years down the road.

I live in Garden Oaks, but I hear that a lot of people are moving into Oak Forest who are priced out of my neighborhood. Seems like the area is improving. We have lived here about six years and expect to list our house about 45 percent more than we bought it for. Not exactly like the west coast, but not bad either. However, it seems that houses in the neighborhood are moving pretty slow now. Some have been on the market for a few months. I don't sense that there are many bidding wars going on, but I may be wrong. I think you definitely would get a good return down the road, as prices of Garden Oaks homes skyrocket. I would expect some more tear downs, however, since many basic ranchers there are not in the best shape. Your lot value alone may be worth something.

Good luck!

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If the size of the home is smaller than the median size, then the psf should be a little higher if it is in average or better condition.

There is another hurdle to consider. Will it appraise for what you want to pay? If the comps are not there to support the price, then it may not appraise causing the deal to fall apart if you are not able/willing to bring the difference between sales price and appraisal to the closing table.

If you love the house and plan on being there a while,(& can get it to appraise) then go for it. You may indeed be paying a little more than what people have been paying. If no one EVER did that, then prices would never move up. Judging by how much prices have/are moving up, clearly you are not alone in that boat.

Oak Forest is a strong area now, fueled by those priced out of Garden Oaks. It is definitely a good location to buy in.

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To compare Garden Oaks with Oak Forest would be a mistake. They might be right next to each other, but they're worlds apart. Also, I don't think OF will become teardown central like GO because of the prevailingly stingy lot sizes in OF (yes, some are pretty big, but that's the exception rather than the rule). Granted, there are some new McMansions in OF, but not like there are in GO.

Now, as to the house you're planning on offering $15k over what the comps are going for...I wouldn't (and didn't) do it. I put in a few offers on some houses in there...each carefully calculated so that once I had bought the house and done repairs I'd have roughly market value invested in it. None of them went through for one reason or another. Since then, the market over there appears to have slowed. If you *REALLY* have to buy in Oak Forest, I suggest you wait a bit and see what prices do....espescially since it sounds like you have a greedy seller. You might also look at Shepherd Forest...closer to town and the prices are better.

If you do decide to buy in for $15k more than its worth, you'll probably be able to sell it in 8-10 years and get back what you put in it, but I wouldn't expect any huge leaps in value over that time....I can't think of any good reason for values to dramatically increase. We're certainly not out of space here, closer in, to put up new townhouses, and the lots really aren't big enough to draw a big crowd of McMansion builders.

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I'm completely unfamiliar with Oak Forest, but I think Jm1fd's advice is sound: NEVER pay significantly over what you feel the property's value to be. Don't throw away $15K. You never know what the future holds. Housing prices could be stagant in upcoming years. Operate under the notion that you could be transferred or accept a job offer in Seattle in a year from now. Do you have $15K you're ready to part with in that scenario? Don't do it. If the seller is greedy, they're going to sit and wait. And wait. And wait. That seller is just going to waste more and more of his valuable time. He may eventually wise up and reduce the price. Or he may not. But there are plenty of other fish in the sea for you. Don't go throwing money away. You never know when you'll need it. Even if some feel that the housing prices in Oak Forest are about to skyrocket, that's never guaranteed.

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I'm completely unfamiliar with Oak Forest, but I think Jm1fd's advice is sound: NEVER pay significantly over what you feel the property's value to be.  Don't throw away $15K.  You never know what the future holds.  Housing prices could be stagant in upcoming years.  Operate under the notion that you could be transferred or accept a job offer in Seattle in a year from now.  Do you have $15K you're ready to part with in that scenario?  Don't do it.  If the seller is greedy, they're going to sit and wait.  And wait.  And wait.  That seller is just going to waste more and more of his valuable time.  He may eventually wise up and reduce the price.  Or he may not.  But there are plenty of other fish in the sea for you.  Don't go throwing money away.  You never know when you'll need it.  Even if some feel that the housing prices in Oak Forest are about to skyrocket, that's never guaranteed.

OF is a great just-outside-610 neihborhood. It has a decent shopping center on 43rd-Kroger, Palais Royal, CVS, Walgreens. Brand new OF Elementary School on 43rd. If you work downtown, T.C. Jester takes you all the way to Washington for a straight shot. LOTS of trees, decent size lots...did I mention LOTS of trees???

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I'm completely unfamiliar with Oak Forest, but I think Jm1fd's advice is sound: NEVER pay significantly over what you feel the property's value to be.  Don't throw away $15K.  You never know what the future holds.  Housing prices could be stagant in upcoming years.  Operate under the notion that you could be transferred or accept a job offer in Seattle in a year from now.  Do you have $15K you're ready to part with in that scenario?  Don't do it.  If the seller is greedy, they're going to sit and wait.  And wait.  And wait.  That seller is just going to waste more and more of his valuable time.  He may eventually wise up and reduce the price.  Or he may not.  But there are plenty of other fish in the sea for you.  Don't go throwing money away.  You never know when you'll need it.  Even if some feel that the housing prices in Oak Forest are about to skyrocket, that's never guaranteed.

Concur! I have a cousin who lives in Oak Forest who got a home for a fairly good price. They were all prepared for some minor remodelling (<$20k). after doing some plumbing work in bathroom, they discovered the galvanized pipes were in worse shape and had to spend some bucks to get them replaced. The galvanized pipes and cast iron drains are starting to get notice from insurance companies who won't always insure homes with galvanized pipes. Homes from the 50's and earlier are getting harder to insure. You just NEVER know what might have to be done.

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I'm completely unfamiliar with Oak Forest, but I think Jm1fd's advice is sound: NEVER pay significantly over what you feel the property's value to be.  Don't throw away $15K.  You never know what the future holds.  Housing prices could be stagant in upcoming years.  Operate under the notion that you could be transferred or accept a job offer in Seattle in a year from now.  Do you have $15K you're ready to part with in that scenario?  Don't do it.  If the seller is greedy, they're going to sit and wait.  And wait.  And wait.  That seller is just going to waste more and more of his valuable time.  He may eventually wise up and reduce the price.  Or he may not.  But there are plenty of other fish in the sea for you.  Don't go throwing money away.  You never know when you'll need it.  Even if some feel that the housing prices in Oak Forest are about to skyrocket, that's never guaranteed.

This is dead on advice, given the ups and downs of the economy recently. Actually, the prices in OF have already skyrocketed a bit. In the summer of '99, I almost put an offer on a typical 1000 sq ft house there on a good street, which was listed for about 78K. I didn't buy it, but just looked up the house and the Tax market value now stands at around 126K, which is probably about right given the avg. $/sq ft. mentioned before (even though many are currently listed for much, much more than that).

Even at 126K, that's a pretty big jump over 6 years for small houses that weren't anything special when new. I question whether the value is there, and I have realtor friends who have said that a lot of the listings there are overpriced.

But it is a nice neighborhood (at least east of TC Jester), and it's in a great location. It has an interesting small town feel to it, and also has the advantage (for Houston) of having very little mixed use retail around it.

Good luck! :)

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Wow, thanks for all the great info everyone.

After posing the question of price per sq/ft to our realtor, she stated (at least in that neighborhood) that it was like comparing apples and oranges. We've looked A LOT in Oak Forest, and this honestly appears to be the best candidate we've found. We've seen many homes in the area priced a few thousand below this home which needed much, much more work. Our realtor claims she is working on a contract for a teardown a couple blocks away for almost $100K. Similar sized lot.

Albeit the house is on the smaller side (but appears to be on par with the area), with the exception of updating there is precious little to do to the home. We looked at a 30 page inspection done on the home 2 years ago, and except for some very minor issues, the house is in fantastic shape for it's age. Obviously if we put in an agreeable offer, we'll have our own done as well.

The lot is relatively big at just over 7K sq/ft (well, maybe not compared to Garden Oaks), so I would think it would be a decent candidate for someone wanting to build a bigger house at some point in the future; not a McMansion.

Basically, our realtor (and our experience) is leading us to believe that this home may be priced about right, due to it's condition.

Does it sound like I'm trying to convince myself? :(

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Basically, our realtor (and our experience) is leading us to believe that this home may be priced about right, due to it's condition.

Does it sound like I'm trying to convince myself?  :(

Yes it does. Because you don't know what the condition of the other properies are in the area compared to this one. Also because that inspection report is 2 years old, and every inspector will potentially find a different set of problems. And not to mention that a realtor's primary interest is to CLOSE A SALE, not make an intelligent long-term financial investment for you. If you don't have hard numbers supporting the notion that this property is really worth $15K more than you first thought it was, then you'd probably be throwing that $15K away.

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Sounds like you really like this house. The question I would ask myself is whether you could see yourself being happy living there for 8 to 10 years, whether or not the value of your home increases.

We bought a home way below the value of other homes on our street in GO, but it required quite a bit of work. That can really wear you down after awhile, unless you are a dedicated do-it-yourselfer, or have a lot of spare money to spend. Sometimes I wish we had paid more and had less work....but hindsight is 20/20.

About the teardowns...does lot size really matter? I have seen them starting to crop up in OF. Many of the houses take up the entire lot.

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Sounds like you really like this house. The question I would ask myself is whether you could see yourself being happy living there for 8 to 10 years, whether or not the value of your home increases.

We bought a home way below the value of other homes on our street in GO, but it required quite a bit of work. That can really wear you down after awhile, unless you are a dedicated do-it-yourselfer, or have a lot of spare money to spend. Sometimes I wish we had paid more and had less work....but hindsight is 20/20.

About the teardowns...does lot size really matter? I have seen them starting to crop up in OF. Many of the house take up the entire lot.

Yeah, I think we've become emotionally attached to the home, and I know that's not a good thing. But we've been seriously looking since the beginning of April, and this is the first home we could actually see ourselves living in, raising children, etc. We could definitely see ourselves happily living there for any given length of time.

As far as the price, I think the average price per sq ft in OF is due to the fact that the majority of homes are approximately 100-300 sq ft larger, but are selling lower per sq ft since they typically need work. This one's smaller, but needs VERY little work, with the exception of updating (per the previous inspection), which drives up the price.

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Yeah, I think we've become emotionally attached to the home, and I know that's not a good thing.  But we've been seriously looking since the beginning of April, and this is the first home we could actually see ourselves living in, raising children, etc.  We could definitely see ourselves happily living there for any given length of time.

As far as the price, I think the average price per sq ft in OF is due to the fact that the majority of homes are approximately 100-300 sq ft larger, but are selling lower per sq ft since they typically need work.  This one's smaller, but needs VERY little work, with the exception of updating (per the previous inspection), which drives up the price.

I think it is natural to get at least somewhat emotionally attached to a home. It is more than just an investment. Like you said, you could see yourself raising children there, etc. Good luck with your decision. We have enjoyed living in the area.

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As far as the price, I think the average price per sq ft in OF is due to the fact that the majority of homes are approximately 100-300 sq ft larger, but are selling lower per sq ft since they typically need work.

Actually, the larger a house is, the lower PSF it will probably sell for, espescially if a large amount of value is in the lot.

When I was looking over there, I got a nice big fat list of comps from my realtor, put 'em in a spreadsheet, then went looking at the pictures of the house on the web. I rated the condition of everything, and took that into consideration when comparing prices. There are plenty enough sales over there to reach a very firm conclusion as to what the house is worth.

Your realtor is trying to convince you so that she can collect her commission check and move on with things.

Keep looking. I looked for over a year, and finally gave up and just bought something.

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There is a wide range of housing stock in Oak Forest. Since the first of the year more than a dozen homes have sold for $135 pf or more within OF. Some reaching into the $160's & $170 psf range. None of these were new construction.

When looking at comparables, make sure you are looking at homes of similiar size, and condition. The homes at the $135+ psf range represent the top of the market. There is a difference between the top of the market and above the market. If the house you like is smaller than average, and in top notch condition, then it should be at the top of the market on a price per foot basis, not the middle. When comparing to really similiar product rather than the neighborhood as a whole, you may find it is more in line than you first thought.

I would recommend really pouring over some comparables.

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Orikal, you said earlier about the quality of the properties: "We've seen many homes in the area priced a few thousand below this home which needed much, much more work." I assumed this meant your realtor walked through these homes with you and said things like: "ooh, water stains on the ceiling of that room - THAT could be expensive" and so on. My point is: your realtor is NOT a qualified home inspector, nor has he or she observed these properties in anything more than a superficial manner. For example, it could very well be that this "better condition" property simply had its water stains painted over! Or this "better condition" property could have insect damage on 99% of its interior walls, costing 10 times the amount to repair than all the cosmetic problems seen on the other properties combined. Bottom line: I believe you should get hard data. Impressions of a realtor can be useful, but I wouldn't trust them exclusively when you're talking about $15K of your money.

Others are suggesting comps, and I think that's the kind of hard data that makes for a more informed investment decision. If your realtor says the comps are still "apples and oranges", then it would be nice to see hard data why. I've seen realtor pull factors out of thin air to justify why a certain comp was priced more than a given property. I'm not saying comps are gospel, but they're substantiated, which is more than the fluff you'll hear spouted by realtors and everyone else.

As for an emotional attachment you're developing to this property, that's SALES, my good man! Your realtor is doing probably the only thing she knows anything about: how to SELL YOU. Probably 99% of bad investment decisions come because of emotions clouding good judgement. You can form an emotional attachment to another property that costs $15K less. It might just take more time and work than your realtor wants to spend on you right now. I think Jm1fd said it well: "Your realtor is trying to convince you so that she can collect her commission check and move on with things." When you wake up a month from now and the emotion has all worn off, you'll want your $15K back.

Summary:

1) Never let emotion get in the way of your judgement.

2) The more hard numbers you have, the better you'll be.

3) Never trust your realtor unconditionally.

4) Never judge a book by its cover: it's in the seller's interest to hide the property's true condition.

5) People regularly pay stupid prices for things, but don't ever count on them doing so (this goes for looking at comps as well as sale/resale of your own property).

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  • 2 weeks later...
So, what happened?  Did you buy it?  Find something else?  Get 'em down on the price?  ????

Well, we thought long and hard, talked with an awful lot of people, and looked really hard at our feelings vs. reality. We put in a total of 3 offers, but the seller wasn't willing to budge much. They did come down a little though, and based on a lot of factors, we felt comfortable with the situation, so we've currently got an option pending.

We did look at another house the day we put in our offer to compare "apples to apples." The home's features were as close as we could get to the one we're interested in, and was priced about $5K over ours. The home had some HUGE water issues, had some terrible tile in the living room, and just didn't flow well at all. So that set our decision in concrete.

We had the inspection done last weekend, and the inspector was surprised the good condition of the home for being almost 60 years old. Some very minor issues, but based on the last inspection done 2 years ago there were no bad surprises. Good surprises were the A/C unit, the huge water heater, and most electrical were updated in 1996. Some extremely minor water flow issues in the back yard about 3 feet from the foundation, but easily fixed. The attic needs about 50% more insulation, as well as some soffits (sp?) added. Inspector broke the garage door after failing to check if the door was locked before pressing the open button. We'll get reimbursed, so no worries, but the look on his face was priceless. :lol:

I'm glad we decided to move when we did. The seller's agent stated that they had a lot of activity on the home, and we thought she was bluffing. But while the inspection was going on, a woman came up and mentioned that she was going to put in an offer, but her agent was out of town that week. She then asked our Realtor if she could represent her on a counter offer. She was dead serious.

Our immediate neighbors came over to talk for a while. They're extremely nice, about our age, and have a 10-month old boxer. I'm a boxer fanatic, so when I get one soon after moving in he'll have a playmate.

We're waiting for the lender to get off their backside and complete an appraisal. We're crossing our fingers it will be done this weekend so we can get moving. Closing date is tentative at mid-September.

Thanks for asking, and thanks to all for your advice. This really is a fantastic site.

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I'd recommend having hydrostatic testing* done on any house with galvanized pipes.  I had an as-is contract on a house in Maplewood: I made a low-ball bid that the sellers accepted, on the condition that they would make no repairs (or allowances for repairs).  The hydrostatic test revealed that there was a major leak that they were going to have to tunnel under the slab to fix.  Estimated cost: $13,500.  Needless to say, I walked, since the house needed all kinds of other work done as well.

I also had hydrostatic testing done on the house I ended up buying in Westbury.  There was a minor leak that cost "only" about $2500 to fix.  The sellers were kind enough to give us an allowance for that.

*there are a number of companies out there who do hydrostatic testing.  I used Herndon/Muncey, which someone recommended to me.  I was happy with the work they did.  (This is not a paid endorsement, btw.  ;) )

Boy, can I attest to the value of a hydro test! I'm trying to buy a 45 year old house right now, and after having TWO hydro tests performed ($585 total and one more test to go), we've confirmed a major leak. Due to the layout of this 1800 sf house, a lot of tunnelling is involved; the two bids I've received so far average about $17,000 (which doesn't include patching up holes in walls or concrete to get access).

Most older houses are going to run into this issue sooner or later; although I've been told a very minor leak doesn't always cause foundation isssues, I'd rather be safe than sorry so I'm not on the hook for the repairs when I go to sell it.

A word of advice for this test; make SURE that your plumbing inspector checks the water flow from each point in the house (ie each sink, tub, shower) before the hydro test. The first guy I hired didn't do that and so didn't know I had a two-trunk drain system. He only tested one leg, so now I have to pay the initial rate again to test the other leg. <_<

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I live in Garden Oaks, but I hear that a lot of people are moving into Oak Forest who are priced out of my neighborhood.

I had an uncle who lived at 714 Garden Oaks Blvd in the late '40s - '60's. His house was on a huge lot about a half block west of Shepherd. It was a large 2-story with white siding and an attached garage on the west side of the house. He and my aunt were living there when he died. Can you tell me if it's still there? If not..what is there now?

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Boy, can I attest to the value of a hydro test!  I'm trying to buy a 45 year old house right now, and after having TWO hydro tests performed ($585 total and one more test to go), we've confirmed a major leak.  Due to the layout of this 1800 sf house, a lot of tunnelling is involved; the two bids I've received so far average about $17,000 (which doesn't include patching up holes in walls or concrete to get access). 

Wish I had know about this before I bought my house....sounds like a worthwhile expenditure.

After going through two inspections, I firmly believe that the normal type of inspection is a waste of money....I found more things wrong than the inspector did.

So how exactly do they do these hydrostatic tests? This is for the sewage lines, right?

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  • 1 month later...

Just remember most people selling their houses are prepared to negotiate a little bit. If a seller is not willing to budge on any part of the deal, you need to walk. Don't give a ridiculously low-ball offer though. Be reasonable, as much as you want to buy the house, they want to sell the house. In this day and age of people "flipping" houses for a quick buck, you are probably gonna get what you want in the end, at the least a decent compromise. :D

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I'm curious, did you buy the house? I live in OF and have for 45+ years...and I LOVE it!

Yes, we closed on the house 9/16 and "moved in" (I use that term loosely) about a week ago. We had all the wood floors refinished, and are now painting. I borrowed a pressure washer from a family member and thoroughly cleaned the exterior. Next step is to replant the flower beds out front and in the back yard, which should be completed this weekend.

The kitchen's absolutely horrendous, and will be the biggest project. It's all original cabinetry from the 50's, and I took one cabinet door off and began stripping it to see what treasures lie beneath. The floors are all white oak, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed the cabinets hold the same, which I'll stain and laquer once stripped. We've got major plans for the kitchen, essentially gutting it. But that's WAY in the future.

All appliances are barely in working order, so we purchased a new stove. Everything else needs to be replaced, but money is limited. :( Next big project is repainting the exterior.

I love the neighborhood, and it'll be a fantastic area to raise a family. We moved from Midtown though, and it's definitely an adjustment to having so much quiet and the neighbors turning in at 10 pm. :P

All in all, I think we got the house for a more than fair price, and I'm happy we made the plunge. It's an awful lot of work, but I think it will be a beautiful home that we'll enjoy for many years.

Thanks for asking. :)

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LOL LOL From your prior descriptions, I thought the house didn't need much of anything and was ready to move in. Guess not....

Yes, we closed on the house 9/16 and "moved in" (I use that term loosely) about a week ago. We had all the wood floors refinished, and are now painting. I borrowed a pressure washer from a family member and thoroughly cleaned the exterior. Next step is to replant the flower beds out front and in the back yard, which should be completed this weekend.

The kitchen's absolutely horrendous, and will be the biggest project. It's all original cabinetry from the 50's, and I took one cabinet door off and began stripping it to see what treasures lie beneath. The floors are all white oak, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed the cabinets hold the same, which I'll stain and laquer once stripped. We've got major plans for the kitchen, essentially gutting it. But that's WAY in the future.

All appliances are barely in working order, so we purchased a new stove. Everything else needs to be replaced, but money is limited. :( Next big project is repainting the exterior.

I love the neighborhood, and it'll be a fantastic area to raise a family. We moved from Midtown though, and it's definitely an adjustment to having so much quiet and the neighbors turning in at 10 pm. :P

All in all, I think we got the house for a more than fair price, and I'm happy we made the plunge. It's an awful lot of work, but I think it will be a beautiful home that we'll enjoy for many years.

Thanks for asking. :)

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LOL LOL From your prior descriptions, I thought the house didn't need much of anything and was ready to move in. Guess not....

It was move-in ready, and would have sufficed just fine leaving everything as is. But once you get in you really see where changes need to be made, so aside from the kitchen and the floors (already done), we've just got a million little things to do. It's kind of fun though! :)

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I don't really have the technical expertise to give you a satisfying explanation of what's involved, but here's a summary of a speech given by the guy whose firm (Herndon/Muncey) I used: http://www.foundationperformance.org/archi...nuary_2005.html

They were able to show me the locations of the leaks using a tiny camera that was at the end of a "snake" inserted into the pipes. Pretty cool.

I live in Robindell which is near the same area...most homes are from the 50's early 60's. Herndon & Muncy is coming by next Friday to do the hydrostatic testing as well as some pressure type tests and another one that involves a ball they send down the pipes to check for blockages. Luckily they are only charging $350 for the initial testing. I have a home waranty company (that really sucks: First American Home Buyers Protection--what a joke) that I'm using that only pays $450 for the entire job! Since I'm reading your posts it sounds like that will only cover the upfront price for the tests and the actual tunneling under the home and pipe replacement will be in the tens of thousands??? We have only owned the home for 4 months. Ouch. Thats a hefty price. I did get a bid for about $2000 to replace the entire line, and $450 to replace only the broken piece. I'm hoping the tests wolnt reveal more pipes that need replacement.

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