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The Way Houston's METRO Light Rail Should Have Been


citykid09

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No... dont think we should have the Berlin wall put up around wheeler... or metal detectors. That would be why i sued the word "Example"

I think Wheeler is incredibly open now and that is its problem. Seems like you can approach the actual platform from 360 degrees. Which isnt the best thing if you're surrounded by a poor neighborhood.

Throw up natural and manmade barriers to approach to limit the access to a handful of points.

Put up more security cameras, including overtly obvious ones at those access points.

I think at a minimal level, that could do wonders for increasing perception of security at the station, but also increase deterrence for unauthorized access by those who aren't there to ride transit and deterrence for possible crime.

You left me no choice but to turn it on you since you were the first to call others a racist. I'm not a racist, nor do i take kindly to being called one.

And unless you're talking about "Breakfast Klub"... I had no clue there were NAACP offices or any other magnet for CP right around that intersection. I've been to Breakfast Klub... its pricey enough its not going to attract the homeless or really poor and I have no problem eating there with the family despite the fact that I'd be in the less than %5 of white people there at any given time. That Jack in the Box there though is another isue... I certainly wouldnt let my wife eat there by herself.

What's the difference between the two places? It surely isnt the dominant racial identity of the majority of users.. its the perception of who is welcome there based on income levels. I guarantee you more homeless and poor people will be using that Jackin the Box over the Breakfast Klub at any given time.... therefore, from a potential crime or harrassment standpoint, the Jack in the Box is much more risky.

Hey.. great parable. But while I live a mile from Wheeler station, I live a mile to the west in a neighborhood I most certainly could not expect to actually buy a home in anytime soon. Ergo.. not a scorpion den. But where I live, and where you live is besides the point because we are talking about a transit station, and soon to be important transit junction... meaning it will be used by people that live all over.

Would you let your wife wait at Wheeler station for an hour by herself? No. And that's a shame.. because your tax dollars helped build it, so you should certainly be able to do so.

Ok, there we have it! Transit should only be provided in rich neighborhoods, since our wives might not feel safe in poor ones!

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Uh, dude. You compared the Gold Line depicted in citykid's post to Houston's Red Line. I quoted YOUR post, and highlighted YOUR post. The Gold Line pictures show subway stations and elevated tracks, while Wheeler Station is at street level. I never brought up skin color or snobbishness. I merely commented on your claim that the Gold Line was easier to use than the Red Line. You may believe that the subway stations LOOK better, and I would agree with you in many cases. But, nothing is easier to use than a street level station.

If you are concerned about others pointing out the flaws in your argument, you should reconsider posting on a public forum.

There is more to ease of use than whether the stations are at street level or not.

The Union Station is the juncture of multiple rail lines, and I am sure represents an ease of use for passengers transferring.

To me, ease of use also includes ability to access and drop off passengers by car, protection from the elements, and effects on other area transportation. Ease of use was also merely one of the criteria identified. At Wheeler transfer from bus to rail is easy, I agree, as rail runs often enough where the wait is short. Transfer from rail to bus often involves longer waits and exposure to the elements.

(Skin color and snobbishness comments were not directed at you - my post was aimed at more than one poster)

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There is more to ease of use than whether the stations are at street level or not.

The Union Station is the juncture of multiple rail lines, and I am sure represents an ease of use for passengers transferring.

To me, ease of use also includes ability to access and drop off passengers by car, protection from the elements, and effects on other area transportation. Ease of use was also merely one of the criteria identified. At Wheeler transfer from bus to rail is easy, I agree, as rail runs often enough where the wait is short. Transfer from rail to bus often involves longer waits and exposure to the elements.

(Skin color and snobbishness comments were not directed at you - my post was aimed at more than one poster)

At those stations where multiple lines meet, I would expect more than exists at Wheeler, also. But, only one line runs through Wheeler. And, I also agree that the train runs often enough to make it easy to use (why Highway6's wife would let 10 trains come by before boarding one an hour later is beyond me). I only highlighted 'ease of use' because I agree that there are no aesthetic values to Wheeler. It is simply a functional station.

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No... dont think we should have the Berlin wall put up around wheeler... or metal detectors. That would be why i sued the word "Example"

I think Wheeler is incredibly open now and that is its problem. Seems like you can approach the actual platform from 360 degrees. Which isnt the best thing if you're surrounded by a poor neighborhood.

Throw up natural and manmade barriers to approach to limit the access to a handful of points.

Put up more security cameras, including overtly obvious ones at those access points.

I think at a minimal level, that could do wonders for increasing perception of security at the station, but also increase deterrence for unauthorized access by those who aren't there to ride transit and deterrence for possible crime.

You left me no choice but to turn it on you since you were the first to call others a racist. I'm not a racist, nor do i take kindly to being called one.

And unless you're talking about "Breakfast Klub"... I had no clue there were NAACP offices or any other magnet for CP right around that intersection. I've been to Breakfast Klub... its pricey enough its not going to attract the homeless or really poor and I have no problem eating there with the family despite the fact that I'd be in the less than %5 of white people there at any given time. That Jack in the Box there though is another isue... I certainly wouldnt let my wife eat there by herself.

What's the difference between the two places? It surely isnt the dominant racial identity of the majority of users.. its the perception of who is welcome there based on income levels. I guarantee you more homeless and poor people will be using that Jackin the Box over the Breakfast Klub at any given time.... therefore, from a potential crime or harrassment standpoint, the Jack in the Box is much more risky.

Hey.. great parable. But while I live a mile from Wheeler station, I live a mile to the west in a neighborhood I most certainly could not expect to actually buy a home in anytime soon. Ergo.. not a scorpion den. But where I live, and where you live is besides the point because we are talking about a transit station, and soon to be important transit junction... meaning it will be used by people that live all over.

Would you let your wife wait at Wheeler station for an hour by herself? No. And that's a shame.. because your tax dollars helped build it, so you should certainly be able to do so.

Let me start first by saying that I don't let my wife do anything. She's more than capable of making her own decisions about places that she finds appropriate or inappropriate for herself. Besides that, she's from a city with much worse crime than Houston so I'm fairly confident she can handle herself. Her home town Memphis can make Mogadishu look like the Woodlands at times. While I'd hope she doesn't wait at Wheeler station for an hour, that's more because trains go through every six minutes, not because I fear for her safety. If she's there for an hour, that means she's sat back and watched at least nine trains go by. That's irresponsible behavior, and that sort of thing is what makes a person a target, not merely being white in a black neighborhood.

Another funny thing is I've eaten at that Jack in the Box several times in the past and never once encountered a problem. Not once. Despite the income level of the people who eat there or their skin tone, most people the world over want to live in peace and aren't looking for trouble. Just simply because the Wheeler station is in a neighborhood with a variable demographic, this does not mean anyone is in any way facing any greater danger than a station in Downtown or the TMC. As to your idea that I should take a leisurely stroll through the poorest neighborhood in Houston as if that somehow proves Wheeler is itself crawling with criminal vermin, all I can do is sit back dumbfounded and ask, "What? What does that have to do with anything being discussed here?"

I just don't understand this irrational fear so many people burden themselves with. Not every person out there is out to get you. While I readily admit the crime around Wheeler station is higher than the areas around some park and rides in lpaces like Kingwood, you must admit Midtown never had any pretensions of being Kingwood. One is an urban area and has all the trappings that go along with urban life, and the other is decidedly suburban and is as safe and bland and cloistered as any 'burb should expect to be. If RocketSci doesn't like the urban lifestyle, then he shouldn't live there. It's really that simple. His bad decision making skills aren't METRO's fault. That's the gist.

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Ok, there we have it! Transit should only be provided in rich neighborhoods, since our wives might not feel safe in poor ones!

Yeah.. Cuz I havent been fighting for rail expansion on HAIF as long as you have, right.

Both you and Attica have the same problem... you confuse the the neighborhoods of my residence, and attica's residence, and transit user's residences with that of the neighborhood at this station location. Wheeler isnt just any station.. its a current transit station and future rail junction. When the system gets built out, it will be one of maybe 5 most important and active stations. Wheeler station happens to live in a dodgy neighborhood. People from Uptown, Downtown, Northline, Sunnyside will be passing through it.

If NY's Union Station was in in the middle of the worst part of Harlem, it would be expected that everything possible to make that station secure, should be done to protect transit users.

Red... Despite wherever you may live.. would you drop your wife at Wheeler station to fend for herself for an hour as its current security level ??

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Yeah.. Cuz I havent been fighting for rail expansion on HAIF as long as you have, right.

Both you and Attica have the same problem... you confuse the the neighborhoods of my residence, and attica's residence, and transit user's residences with that of the neighborhood at this station location. Wheeler isnt just any station.. its a current transit station and future rail junction. When the system gets built out, it will be one of maybe 5 most important and active stations. Wheeler station happens to live in a dodgy neighborhood. People from Uptown, Downtown, Northline, Sunnyside will be passing through it.

If NY's Union Station was in in the middle of the worst part of Harlem, it would be expected that everything possible to make that station secure, should be done to protect transit users.

Red... Despite wherever you may live.. would you drop your wife at Wheeler station to fend for herself for an hour as its current security level ??

I'm not married, but if I were, my wife would have no reason to wait an hour at Wheeler, when the trains come by every 6 minutes.

You are complaining of Wheeler's current layout when future lines are built. That makes no sense whatsoever. When the U Line is built, Wheeler will get redone. Rather than argue that the current Wheeler is insufficient to handle future expansion, I suggest that you post the future expansion plans, so that we can debate reality. Claiming that a current configuration will not work in the future is rather...umm...silly.

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Yeah.. Cuz I havent been fighting for rail expansion on HAIF as long as you have, right.

Both you and Attica have the same problem... you confuse the the neighborhoods of my residence, and attica's residence, and transit user's residences with that of the neighborhood at this station location. Wheeler isnt just any station.. its a current transit station and future rail junction. When the system gets built out, it will be one of maybe 5 most important and active stations. Wheeler station happens to live in a dodgy neighborhood. People from Uptown, Downtown, Northline, Sunnyside will be passing through it.

If NY's Union Station was in in the middle of the worst part of Harlem, it would be expected that everything possible to make that station secure, should be done to protect transit users.

Red... Despite wherever you may live.. would you drop your wife at Wheeler station to fend for herself for an hour as its current security level ??

Wheeler station ain't exactly in the Houston equivalent of the worst part of Harlem, and I'm talking about 2009 Harlem, not 1980s Harlem.

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Let me start first by saying that I don't let my wife do anything. She's more than capable of making her own decisions about places that she finds appropriate or inappropriate for herself. ..... While I'd hope she doesn't wait at Wheeler station for an hour, that's more because trains go through every six minutes, not because I fear for her safety. If she's there for an hour, that means she's sat back and watched at least nine trains go by.

Okay.. Stop circling around the issue with train times and female independence ... Would you be comfortable with her decision if she chose to wait at Wheeler station for an hour?

Another funny thing is I've eaten at that Jack in the Box several times in the past and never once encountered a problem.

Me neither.. but you and I aren't 100 lb women. I think we can both agree from a common sense standpoint that women are more likely to be assaulted than men and smaller weaker people are more likely to be assaulted than bigger stronger looking people.

And as my "walk though the poorest neighborhood example" was meant to demonstrate.... the poorer an area is, the more chance of desperation, the more chance of crime.

And you keep bringing back up skin tone.. not me.

I just don't understand this irrational fear so many people burden themselves with. Not every person out there is out to get you. While I readily admit the crime around Wheeler station is higher than the areas around some park and rides in lpaces like Kingwood, you must admit Midtown never had any pretensions of being Kingwood.

Nor have i mentioned Kingwood or other suburbia even once. We could just as easily compare Wheeler to the two stations to the north and two stations to the south. McGowan station may only be a platform... but it is both more isolated in its access but surrounded by eyes (cameras and places of business and residences) and the perception of safety, and deterrence for crime, is greater there than at Wheeler.

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I'm not married, but if I were, my wife would have no reason to wait an hour at Wheeler, when the trains come by every 6 minutes.

You are complaining of Wheeler's current layout when future lines are built. That makes no sense whatsoever. When the U Line is built, Wheeler will get redone. Rather than argue that the current Wheeler is insufficient to handle future expansion, I suggest that you post the future expansion plans, so that we can debate reality. Claiming that a current configuration will not work in the future is rather...umm...silly.

You're right.. lets talk only current..

Busses dont come by every 6 minutes...

Hypothetical Mrss Red gets off the rail to catch a bus that runs every 15 minutes and is 10 minutes late....

Would you be comfortable with hypothetical Mrs. Red waiting at current Wheeler station for 25 minutes without you ?

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Not really sure what you're so afraid of. Its not a high crime area.

Here's the beat report for September, most recent available: http://www.houstontx.gov/police/cs/stats2009/sep09/sep0910h40.htm

There's nothing on that block on Fannin or even all that close on Fannin. On Main Street there's an Aggravated Assault, a Theft, and an Auto Theft. Might be at that VA living quarters place? There are no rapes or homicides. Many beats cannot say that, including River Oaks, where a son shot and killed his dad.

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Okay.. Stop circling around the issue with train times and female independence ... Would you be comfortable with her decision if she chose to wait at Wheeler station for an hour?

Me neither.. but you and I aren't 100 lb women. I think we can both agree from a common sense standpoint that women are more likely to be assaulted than men and smaller weaker people are more likely to be assaulted than bigger stronger looking people.

And as my "walk though the poorest neighborhood example" was meant to demonstrate.... the poorer an area is, the more chance of desperation, the more chance of crime.

And you keep bringing back up skin tone.. not me.

Nor have i mentioned Kingwood or other suburbia even once. We could just as easily compare Wheeler to the two stations to the north and two stations to the south. McGowan station may only be a platform... but it is both more isolated in its access but surrounded by eyes (cameras and places of business and residences) and the perception of safety, and deterrence for crime, is greater there than at Wheeler.

Yoo ask a lot of hypotheticals and then get annoyed that we're conditionalizing them? You're not asking about any kind of real world scenario that would ever actually take place. If you don't want me to dance, don't take me to the club.

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You're right.. lets talk only current..

Busses dont come by every 6 minutes...

Hypothetical Mrss Red gets off the rail to catch a bus that runs every 15 minutes and is 10 minutes late....

Would you be comfortable with hypothetical Mrs. Red waiting at current Wheeler station for 25 minutes without you ?

Well, for your hypothetical to occur, I would have had to get married, AND Mrs. Red and I would have made the decision to move to the area. Since we would not have decided to move there if we were terrified to go outside, and considering my experience in criminal matters (including how not to make yourself a victim), and considering my general non-interest in bimbos (meaning my wife would know how to stay safe), my belief is that I would be aware but not overly concerned if my wife were at Wheeler Station waiting for the bus. However, in the interest of getting off of a topic that has little chance of ever occurring, if I concede that I would be terrified, and that I would beat my wife before I let her wait for the bus at Wheeler, could we move onto something else? Might I also suggest that your tax dollars allow you to ride the train, not demand that it be built to your specs? Might I also point out that you and others seem to have expensive solutions to the "problems" of METRO, yet also seem to complain a lot about tax money to pay for it?

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Well, for your hypothetical to occur, I would have had to get married, AND Mrs. Red and I would have made the decision to move to the area. Since we would not have decided to move there if we were terrified to go outside, and considering my experience in criminal matters (including how not to make yourself a victim), and considering my general non-interest in bimbos (meaning my wife would know how to stay safe), my belief is that I would be aware but not overly concerned if my wife were at Wheeler Station waiting for the bus. However, in the interest of getting off of a topic that has little chance of ever occurring, if I concede that I would be terrified, and that I would beat my wife before I let her wait for the bus at Wheeler, could we move onto something else? Might I also suggest that your tax dollars allow you to ride the train, not demand that it be built to your specs? Might I also point out that you and others seem to have expensive solutions to the "problems" of METRO, yet also seem to complain a lot about tax money to pay for it?

Oh thank God.. you're saying only dumb bimbos get assaulted, raped, and harassed by homeless. Okay.. no longer an issue then.

I just suggested fencing and landscaping... not that pricey a solution.

Nor have i ever complained about metro and our tax money.

Wheeler station is in the middle of a open superblock surrounded by, except for the Sears, majority open blocks. It's isolated and isolation is an ingredient for crime.

It's also accessible from all sides.

I just think its a poorly designed station. I think If the whole block were more of a destination with 2-4 access points, that would do wonders.

Use landscaping and ornamental fencing to define the block. Right there, psychologically, that would set up boundary..

You need to use transit? Come on in. You don't need to use transit, please stay out or walk around.

As it is now, there is zero boundary, zero buffer. It is designed to be usable by anyone regardless if they are there for the site's intended purpose or not.... Basic security, not there.

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Oh thank God.. you're saying only dumb bimbos get assaulted, raped, and harassed by homeless. Okay.. no longer an issue then.

I just suggested fencing and landscaping... not that pricey a solution.

Nor have i ever complained about metro and our tax money.

Wheeler station is in the middle of a open superblock surrounded by, except for the Sears, majority open blocks. It's isolated and isolation is an ingredient for crime.

It's also accessible from all sides.

I just think its a poorly designed station. I think If the whole block were more of a destination with 2-4 access points, that would do wonders.

Use landscaping and ornamental fencing to define the block. Right there, psychologically, that would set up boundary..

You need to use transit? Come on in. You don't need to use transit, please stay out or walk around.

As it is now, there is zero boundary, zero buffer. It is designed to be usable by anyone regardless if they are there for the site's intended purpose or not.... Basic security, not there.

Yes, if you're going to go the helpless bimbo route, I'm going to call out the bimbo post. People use Wheeler every single day without problem. Granted, few of them are bimbos, and that is probably a good thing. Only one post has contained actual crime stats, and they showed none. All other posts contain unsupported fears of crime. Let's stick to reality, shall we?

Your "solution" of fencing around a PUBLIC transit station is window dressing. It will not make the station any safer, though it might make you and a few others feel safer. I'm not a fan of apparent safety. Again, I like reality. Reality says that you are a potential victim ANYWHERE. Ask the mayor of Sugarland. Closing off the station, or hiding it underground or behind walls or fences make it LESS safe, not more.

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Your "solution" of fencing around a PUBLIC transit station is window dressing. It will not make the station any safer, though it might make you and a few others feel safer. I'm not a fan of apparent safety. Again, I like reality. Reality says that you are a potential victim ANYWHERE. Ask the mayor of Sugarland. Closing off the station, or hiding it underground or behind walls or fences make it LESS safe, not more.

Not really sure what you're so afraid of. Its not a high crime area.

Again, I contend this "safety" issue is a ruse to disguise other latent fears, specifically racism. But, I've repeatedly been told that my assumption there was wrong, and considering the crime data doesn't support a fear of assault or any other such crime, I'd like to know what the issue actually is. RocketSci, Highway6, I'd like you to get to the root of the issue. What's the real deal? If it's not racism and it's not about safety, then what is it? I really am curious. Perhaps it's something I haven't considered, but surely, hopefully it's not just because there isn't any public art on the property.

I thought they weren't even done with Wheeler Station. Won't it be expanded once the Richmond line is built?

Yep. See above. The station is only half complete.

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Your "solution" of fencing around a PUBLIC transit station is window dressing. It will not make the station any safer, though it might make you and a few others feel safer. I'm not a fan of apparent safety. Again, I like reality. Reality says that you are a potential victim ANYWHERE. Ask the mayor of Sugarland. Closing off the station, or hiding it underground or behind walls or fences make it LESS safe, not more.

Yes, crime can happen anywhere. But all security measures offer a degree of real and imagined security. Even a fake security camera in a retail store will deter some from shoplifting.

I'm not saying put the place underground. Metro owns the whole block.. then claim the whole block. Define the whole block as yours. Whether you put up a moat, the Berlin wall, or a 3' hedge row around the entire superblock... psychologically speaking.. that defines the block, defines the use for the block. If a 3' hedgerow makes it considerably less likely that non-transit users will traverse the site or homeless people from loitering on the site.. then that window dressing/ imagined security will lead to less potential for crime.

I like reality too.. my reality tells me that while crime can happen anywhere, there are some places its more likely to happen and others its less likely to happen.

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Yes, crime can happen anywhere. But all security measures offer a degree of real and imagined security. Even a fake security camera in a retail store will deter some from shoplifting.

I'm not saying put the place underground. Metro owns the whole block.. then claim the whole block. Define the whole block as yours. Whether you put up a moat, the Berlin wall, or a 3' hedge row around the entire superblock... psychologically speaking.. that defines the block, defines the use for the block. If a 3' hedgerow makes it considerably less likely that non-transit users will traverse the site or homeless people from loitering on the site.. then that window dressing/ imagined security will lead to less potential for crime.

I like reality too.. my reality tells me that while crime can happen anywhere, there are some places its more likely to happen and others its less likely to happen.

Well, its less likely to happen here where stats do not seem to indicate a significant crime problem. This low crime bubble area is likely caused by measures that Metro has taken, including cameras on the platforms and frequent passes by HPD and Metro Police, as well as fare checkpoints. It is required to have a fare to even stand on the platform, and Metro Police checks to ensure people have these fares fairly regularly.

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Again, I contend this "safety" issue is a ruse to disguise other latent fears, specifically racism. But, I've repeatedly been told that my assumption there was wrong, and considering the crime data doesn't support a fear of assault or any other such crime, I'd like to know what the issue actually is. RocketSci, Highway6, I'd like you to get to the root of the issue. What's the real deal? If it's not racism and it's not about safety, then what is it? I really am curious. Perhaps it's something I haven't considered, but surely, hopefully it's not just because there isn't any public art on the property.

My children are not as well informed to know that the stinking ranting people (who are of all colors and ages, though 99% adult men) who occupy the area immediately surrounding the transit station, and who occasionally confront their friends nearby, do not represent a threat to their safety according to the neighborhood crime statistics.

They do not understand that just because there are overgrown weed covered foundations of wrecked buildings in sight with sleeping people on it during mid day, or who bathe shirtless in the nearby fountains in the mornings, that the neighborhood is really very safe.

They do not understand that few neighborhood businesses, no homes, torn-up sidewalks, and urban-prairie is just "what makes Houston Houston" and that they should just learn to accept that.

That the Sears bricked up the windows of their building due to repeated break-ins, and closes early due to lack of customers out of fear to be in the area at night is not noticed by my children, but that has nothing do with the safety of the area but is only a matter of perception.

That the station sits in the middle of this area, open on all sides, witness to it all, offering no refuge from real or imagined threats, and with no where or no one to run to... could that be the issue?

And yet, there are easy and relatively inexpensive solutions, as Highway6 has stated, which can improve real and perceived safety.

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Myth. (Highway6's fence solution)

Problem: Red you own a house on a corner lot and kids constatly cut across that corner and have worn a path in your grass.

A psychological barrier is just as effective as a physical barrier.

A small row of hedges or a planting bed at the corner may be perfectly scalable by the kids.. but the majority wont bother. That row of hedges defines that corner as part of your property and will solve the vast majority of kids cutting across your lawn. It wont cut down on all kids.. but enough that you wont have the problem of worn grass.

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Well in My humble opinion, i think the city of Houston should've followed Chicago's direction and done elevated trains. At least there wouldn't've been as much as a hassle and fuss over it with worrying about how the congestion and construction or tearing streets and putting businesses and homes out to pasture in the process.

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Well in My humble opinion, i think the city of Houston should've followed Chicago's direction and done elevated trains. At least there wouldn't've been as much as a hassle and fuss over it with worrying about how the congestion and construction or tearing streets and putting businesses and homes out to pasture in the process.

In many ways I agree, but thinking back to the blood feud that was the approval for making a rail line, there was no way in hell a much more expensive elevated train plan would have passed, so its kind of a moot point.

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