IronTiger Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 If only they had widened 610 before the ROW got cramped with the tall buildings in the Uptown area. They could've have an entirely grade-separated freight train running in the median... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citykid09 Posted May 6, 2014 Author Share Posted May 6, 2014 Its weird that I can't find any images of it online other then this, but here is what the Villa Maria/Welbron Road/Rail Road crossing looks like. Its not the best image, but it give you an idea of what can be done at Westheimer and the train crossing. If a city the size of Bryan can do it, why can't Houston on its premier street? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 A lot of reasons. I've driven under that Villa Maria underpass many, many times. For one, there was generous right of way for a detour on the road and rail part, with the detour Villa Maria on the golf course. Explain how that could be done on Westheimer without major ROW demolition. Secondly, the railroad there parallels a recently closed-in drainage ditch, something that could make an underpass problematic at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Ah... Afton Oaks. Screwing themselves over since the 1980s. How unfortunate if they actually did fight to keep the rail from being lowered! Why? Why would they fight against that? I just don't understand it. Now there will always be a big, loud, potentially dangerous (remember the chemical spill near West U about a decade ago?) train track on grade with most of the homes in that neighborhood. A shame. It can still be trenched, though I suspect the costs would be a lot higher than in the 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakota79 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 For some reason Afton Oaks has always been against anything to improve mobility. One thing I remember them saying was they were afraid it would increase traffic without the train to stop people approx 28-32 times a day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Wow. I would rather have steadily moving traffic than have traffic back ups down Richmond due to the train! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nativehoustonion Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 They will get what they asked for. Afton Oaks will be surrounded by mid rises and high rises. They did not want the light rail, so thank Culberson. They should of have overpasses at Westheimer, San Felipe, and Richmond. Now they are squired in. Within 10 years the population will be almost 5 hundred thousands within 10 miles. I'm happy I live in Upper Kirby District. I walk everywhere no need to drive. Everyone will drive through Afton Oaks because of the traffic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 If the idea were to build an underpass under the tracks, is it not the case now that the required length of approach ramps would cut off much of the new developments from traffic on Westheimer? Not only residents in Afton Oaks, but wouldn't developers also fight to stop an underpass? Besides, having cars stuck in traffic presents an opportunity for bored passengers to inspect the nearby shopping opportunities. I can easily see a convergence of interests to ever do anything along here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 If the idea were to build an underpass under the tracks, is it not the case now that the required length of approach ramps would cut off much of the new developments from traffic on Westheimer? Not only residents in Afton Oaks, but wouldn't developers also fight to stop an underpass? Besides, having cars stuck in traffic presents an opportunity for bored passengers to inspect the nearby shopping opportunities. I can easily see a convergence of interests to ever do anything along here. An underpass for the train. Not the cars. At least that's what I'm curious about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 An underpass for the train. Not the cars. At least that's what I'm curious about. The drainage ditch complicates things. If it were completely removed and not just open for years and recently covered over, then it would worth be discussing. That or moving the tracks (which is why a "median in 610" would've been pretty swell had they been able to implement that). The "comparison", a sunken intersection of two farm to market roads, has two things that this doesn't: some ROW to spare, and no water connections. Finfeather and the connection road not withstanding, the fact that the area to the north was a golf course was a good thing (you can see where the detour road went). You cannot do a railroad project ANYWHERE along that railroad corridor without some ROW demolition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Ok. So... that leaves a tunnel option for the vehicular traffic. Put the tunnel entrance heading west at Edloe Street, place the exit a 1000' east of Chimney Rock. Traffic problems for people wanting to travel through that area without intentions of stopping would be eliminated. Thoughts on that idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Ok. So... that leaves a tunnel option for the vehicular traffic. Put the tunnel entrance heading west at Edloe Street, place the exit a 1000' east of Chimney Rock. Traffic problems for people wanting to travel through that area without intentions of stopping would be eliminated. Thoughts on that idea?So, a giant tunnel bypassing not only the rail but also the Galleria area and 610 as well? That sounds like a bit much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Yep. Think of it as a pass-through for buses and through traffic. It is a bit much (I realize), but it would ease traffic congestion in that area. Since all of this is hypothetical any way - why not envision something grand? Why not tunnel under some of the most heavily congested areas in Houston to alleviate traffic issues when that is absolutely possible? Since the option of building a road overpass tall enough to clear the train tracks would be an eyesore and cause additional traffic headaches, why not tunnel below? There wouldn't need to be any road closures (except at the tunnel entrances) and the retail in the area wouldn't be harmed by construction and the visual blight of a big TexDot style road overpass (replete with Texas states stamped into the pre-cast concrete). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 That would muck with a "Westheimer subway" but whatevs. I was thinking in more in-line with those other 1960s-style underpasses you'll occasionally see in Houston (Medical Center and areas around it) where you have a few lanes intersecting with the road with some lanes going under. Maybe starting just east of Suffolk (two lanes descending, two lanes remaining), then re-emerging on the other side of Mid Lane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 ^eventually a traffic lane could be taken and used for lightrail? I moved the distances back so far on this tunnel because I don't want to have any issues with the major retail centers that are around and under construction. I think Mid Lane and Suffolk as the entrances to the underpass would be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Well, the way I see it, for the sunken pathway, it is one lane each way, with the two lanes on the surface to serve as turn lanes for barriers/left turn lanes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) ^I would do the opposite I think. 2 lanes sunken, with 1 lane for the shopping center traffic not much different from major "life style" centers these days any way. Though I don't know if there is room? Maybe a 1 lane (each way) sunken portion, and a 1 lane ground portion (each way) with widened sidewalks and landscaping - though I don't know if going to a 4 lane road here from a 5/6 lane road would be good? I know how tight things are in this area with traffic - hence my suggestion for a larger/longer tunnel option. Edited May 7, 2014 by arche_757 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 From what I see, there's six lanes of Westheimer with no median. West of the railroad, there's three westbound, two eastbound, and a central turn lane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 So a great conversation in this thread! I love it It's great that I stumbled upon this forum and see people just as passionate about the built environment. I was beginning to go crazy lol. Ok anyway......westheimer. Historically, Westheimer for some strange reason has always received very little attention in regards to its overall infrastructure. It was always at the edge of two different areas and remains a demarcation between "River Oaks" and "Everything else" (till a better description comes to mind). It's a very strange case where a road is used as a main thoroughfare, but it neither reads or is treated as one by the city. Just notice how Westheimer is treated once you get inside the loop. It is neither celebrated, loved, or treated as a main thoroughfare into the city (when we all know it to be). My observation is because there are competing interests in how people think it should be handled, and I'm talking about who should be responsible for it. Now the railroad tracks themselves. It's clear it was put there because nobody at the time wanted to do the work to divert the stream or creek which runs right beside it and has become the main stream that helps divert all drainage from this part of town to Buffalo Bayou! It seems the city could have fixed this a long time ago, but again no political will or city density to both divert the stream or trench the rail line near it. Now we have this incredibly awkward condition with a road that is vastly overused/deteriorated yet is a main thoroughfare into the city (but oddly not treated as such by the city), an underground stream that is vital to draining water from this part of town that nobody was willing to fix pre-densification, and a very inefficiently used rail that would be hard for the city to take back now since the costs would be astronomical. Thats the current situation. The result will be that this current generation that is in power in all parties will not have the political will to fix this and will most likely fall on the lap of my generation or the generation after that (like most problems in this city and country) to bite the built and fix it. First you would have to divert the stream! That is very important and should be done first. You wouldn't even be able to trench the railroad or even build underpasses for the roads anyway before accomplishing this. Second, by the time this major project will HAVE to be done I would hope we are also building commuter rail or multiple layers of rail in this city and this rail line through this part of town would be a major line for a commuter rail with a central hub station probably in the area of Westheimer. You would trench the whole thing and move it below grade while also installing multiple rail tracks and stations (probably a hub at Westheimer and smaller ones at San Felipe and Richmond. Third will be to have streets at level grade passing over this new trenched rail line. With the rail line also below grade you can now build separate pedestrian bridges to improve connectivity on both sides. Fourth, will be to completely redo Westheimer from the loop till 527. You would widen it as much as possible. Have either BRT or lightrail in the middle (connected with the new hub mentioned before). Entirely re-imagined streetscape/sidewalks and clear signage/graphics creating a sense of place for that whole district kinda like how they do it in Uptown. Finally, a place where I can unload thoughts I have had circling my mind for a long time now lol. Just an opinion, but I think it could work. You have to establish some kind of political will first and most likely grab investment from the private sector as our taxes in this city are so low we would never be able to afford stuff like this as a city gov. alone! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollusk Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Luminare, I agree with you about the problem of political will - though that's not just a Houston problem, though we certainly have the whole "good for bidness" mantra. We've had thirty years plus of either outright tax cuts or erosion by failing to keep pace with inflation, a prime example of which is the gas tax which in constant terms collects about half of what it did the last time it was raised roughly twenty years ago, and infrastructure rotting left and right. You are also correct that this will have to be dealt with sooner or later, and that waiting is likely to be expensive. That is in effect a huge tax increase for our children, all because there are a bunch of people who can't seem to distinguish between spending and investment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I think again, that if they were redo 610 west loop, the rail would go IN the median, as there's no spurs down that section. That way, there's no need for an overpass/underpass. I wonder if BRT could work on right of way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) @IronTiger While your logic is sound and has been done in other cities. I would also look at those cities and data will tell you that commuter rail which is attached onto highways like that under performs because they are out of the way from people who will use them most. You need to look at this from an out of the box point of view. Commuter rail is suppose to bring people straight to the heart of the city or straight to main districts of a city not to circle it like a highway and be as far away from people who would be able to access it. Not to mention putting it next to highways is making a statement saying "yeah we are doing rail, but it still subservient to cars!" When implementing any kind of rail program you have to make it it's own distinguish entity. One thing which is going to convince people to take public transit is for the city to make a statement that they are dead serious about it! In fact there have been numerous studies on this including our own lightrail system! Currently our Redline lightrail is the best performing lightrail in the nation because it is integrated with the fabric of the urban environment and doesn't just go from park and ride to park and ride (which you still need a car to get too....so whats the point of rail at that point -.- ). There is no easy way out of this. It has to be tackled head on. Rail has to be woven into the fabric of the city not elevated or embedded in a highway. BRT can not be a replacement for commuter rail. Like everything else it is but a cog in the whole machine. An efficient well performing public transportation system has LAYERS! Its like this: High speed rail: services interstate travel or super fast (premium) intercity travel Intercity rail: services travel between cities. It is a tad slower than high speed rail and makes more stops inbetween. Regional rail: services (in our case) All of Harris county and surrounding counties and facilities travel in our region and gets people into the main areas of houston and other places for that matter Lightrail: because of the type of ground we have under us. Subway would be here but we simply can't do it unless we encase the whole dame thing in concrete and have enormous bell piers under it. LightRail should service inter-district or inter-area needs with many stops so it can service as many people as possible. Its local rail and eventually there should be many of these at least lightrail on major streets. BRT: essentially a trojan horse to bringing better transit to areas of town. BRT can be a permanent or temp solution where you are trying to build a reliable public transportation base. Buses: services neighborhoods and is gets people from the inner parts of neighborhoods, districts, or even suburbs and towns, and gets them to the options above. Layers in Transportation is important which is why we fail at it so hard! We try to find the easy quick solution and this isnt the case. You have to create an ecosystem that draws people to the service Edited May 12, 2014 by Luminare 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Rail in the middle of the freeway wouldn't be for passenger--the rail services freight and that's what it would continue to do. No spurs, no stations. I think that "easy quick solution" is "adding LRT down major roads" which is a bad idea in many aspects as it slows down light rail, screws up traffic patterns, and throttles major thoroughfares. The reason why it's done this way is primarily because the ROW is cheap (not ridership numbers--that's just an estimated number to bring in funding). As for "comprehensive transit system" that's been discussed many many times and has been decided that at best, a traditional system that would funnel into downtown wouldn't work because Houston is spread out. However, this not the space to discuss it. The original topic was if an underpass or overpass for Westheimer could be done, and NO, the way the OP is describing it will NOT work for this purpose: A lot of reasons. I've driven under that Villa Maria underpass many, many times. For one, there was generous right of way for a detour on the road and rail part, with the detour Villa Maria on the golf course. Explain how that could be done on Westheimer without major ROW demolition. Secondly, the railroad there parallels a recently closed-in drainage ditch, something that could make an underpass problematic at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luminare Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with many of your points. All completely valid. Definitely not an overnight thing. With the densification of the city its something that should be revisited. ----back on topic---- Yes underpasses wouldn't work because of the situation I stated previously not to mention the grade separation the road the slope needed to achieve this would be very disruptive to street level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plumber2 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Afton Oaks, I should have known. Those folks fighting the Ashby Highrise should have engaged the Afton Oaks peeps. Maybe the outcome would have been different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citykid09 Posted May 3, 2021 Author Share Posted May 3, 2021 All these years later, I wonder if opinions have changed on this topic with all of the development that has happened in the area. I was just in the area admiring all of the new developments then I looked over and see a a train stretching across Westheimer. That really ruined the vibe, I don’t care what anyone says, the train needs to go. The 4th largest city in America deserves better then to have a small town train crossing that goes through one of its premier streets in one of its premier areas. Just my opinion. Don’t hate me for speaking the truth. Come on Houston! Fix this! 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 4 hours ago, citykid09 said: All these years later, I wonder if opinions have changed on this topic with all of the development that has happened in the area. I was just in the area admiring all of the new developments then I looked over and see a a train stretching across Westheimer. That really ruined the vibe, I don’t care what anyone says, the train needs to go. The 4th largest city in America deserves better then to have a small town train crossing that goes through one of its premier streets in one of its premier areas. Just my opinion. Don’t hate me for speaking the truth. Come on Houston! Fix this! The only way that's going to get fixed is if they rip up that section of track. Truth be told, I like seeing trains in an urban environment. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citykid09 Posted May 3, 2021 Author Share Posted May 3, 2021 15 hours ago, august948 said: The only way that's going to get fixed is if they rip up that section of track. Truth be told, I like seeing trains in an urban environment. I like trains in urban environments as well, just not country a** Union Pacific trains. I like subway trains. Lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 12 minutes ago, citykid09 said: I like trains in urban environments as well, just not country a** Union Pacific trains. I like subway trains. Lol Freight trains are much more interesting to watch. Not sure what's particularly country about a freight train, though. After all.... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLWM8609 Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 26 minutes ago, citykid09 said: I like trains in urban environments as well, just not country a** Union Pacific trains. I like subway trains. Lol Country a** Union Pacific trains help move and make this city. I guess we ought to keep freight trucks off of pretty Westheimer too? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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