Could An Over Or Underpass For Westheimer At Railroad Crossing?

[citykid09]

I was just wondering if there where any plans in place for the railroad crossing at Westheimer near Highland Village? The city of Bryan finished an underpass for one of its major streets that cross railroad tracks (Villa Maria Road)a while back and I was wondering where their any plans for Westheimer? Is that something the citizens of Houston would like to see happen in the near future?

For more of what it looks like click on the first link

http://www.bryantx.gov/departments/default.asp?name=vm_road_info

http://www.theeagle.com/local/Underpass-above-and-beyond2008-05-28T04-19-57

[AtticaFlinch]

I was just wondering if there where any plans in place for the railroad crossing at Westheimer near Highland Village? The city of Bryan finished an underpass for one of its major streets that cross railroad tracks (Villa Maria Road)a while back and I was wondering where their any plans for Westheimer? Is that something the citizens of Houston would like to see happen in the near future?

For more of what it looks like click on the first link

http://www.bryantx.g...me=vm_road_info

http://www.theeagle....-05-28T04-19-57

It's been done at Yale and Studemont before. The only problem I see with it, besides the construction making me take an alternate route to and from work, would be making room if side lanes are necessary to access the shopping centers, which I would imagine they would be. I think, as the innerloop continues to get denser, either the tracks will need to be abandoned or a tunnel will need to be built.

[Highway6]

You're comparing apples to oranges... grapes to watermelons

Look at the villa maria site plan in the link you posted... then go to google maps and look at the westheimer intersection.

Scale and context of the two locations is night and day.

We know what underpasses look like.. we have them all over the city. Whether the westheimer location is a good candidate for an underpass is certainly something that can be debated.. but for you to highlight essentially a rural underpass as backup for why an underpass would work in a dense urban setting is ridiculous.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Highway6

[citykid09]

You're comparing apples to oranges... grapes to watermelons

Look at the villa maria site plan in the link you posted... then go to google maps and look at the westheimer intersection.

Scale and context of the two locations is night and day.

We know what underpasses look like.. we have them all over the city. Whether the westheimer location is a good candidate for an underpass is certainly something that can be debated.. but for you to highlight essentially a rural underpass as backup for why an underpass would work in a dense urban setting is ridiculous.

Have you ever been to that intersection (Villa Maria @ Wellborn)? Its not rural at all. And the image that Google maps shows of it is at least 3 years old. I was just comparing the area to Westheimer because I wanted to know if the city was planning any kind of separation for that Westheimer, because I have seen how bad it gets backed up when a train comes through. The reason the city of Bryan did it was because traffic was backing up so bad and it was slowing emergency vehicles from getting to locations on the other side. It just seems kind of crazy that on a major road like Westheimer in the 4th largest city in America still has railroad crossings.

[AtticaFlinch]

Have you ever been to that intersection (Villa Maria @ Wellborn)? Its not rural at all. And the image that Google maps shows of it is at least 3 years old. I was just comparing the area to Westheimer because I wanted to know if the city was planning any kind of separation for that Westheimer, because I have seen how bad it gets backed up when a train comes through. The reason the city of Bryan did it was because traffic was backing up so bad and it was slowing emergency vehicles from getting to locations on the other side. It just seems kind of crazy that on a major road like Westheimer in the 4th largest city in America still has railroad crossings.

Again, they've retrofitted an underpass at Studemont, Yale and now that I think about it, Houston Ave. Studemont stays busy, but neither Yale nor Houston really warrant the underpasses, so economics and traffic flow are probably not the biggest reasons for getting this done. I can't fathom why Yale has the underpass, but neither Heights Blvd, Durham nor Shepherd have it. Also (and again now that I think about it), if they were to build any tunnels from the Galleria area to the innerloop bypassing the train tracks, it would make much more sense to do it on Richmond and San Felipe. There's already considerably less traffic that would be displaced by the construction, and the land is considerably less congested with development currently. But, if this wasn't built on all three roads, including Westheimer, I could foresee the residential neighborhoods separating the streets would become high speed racing paths as impatient people would try to avoid waiting by taking the backroads to get around the train. There is no good solution unless it's a complete solution.

[Highway6]

Have you ever been to that intersection (Villa Maria @ Wellborn)? Its not rural at all. And the image that Google maps shows of it is at least 3 years old. I was just comparing the area to Westheimer because I wanted to know if the city was planning any kind of separation for that Westheimer..

I lived in BCS for over 5 years including less than a 500' from the intersection in question for one summer.

'Rural' may have been an exaggeration, but there is no intersection in BCS with the minimal ROW and surrounding density combination of the westheimer intersection in question.

Wellborn, Finfeather, and the RR combine for a ROW of 300'. VillaMaria, at this intersection is next to a city owned golf course, and they have chipped away from the city land to increase the Villa Maria ROW to almost 200'.

Compared to Westheimer having a ROW of about 60-65' and the RR having a ROW of 100'.

90% of the residential development at that Villa Maria intersection wasn't there 10 yrs ago. All the development that has gone up is typical suburban development with access roads well isolated from the intersection of the two major ROWs.

Compared to Westheimer that has commerical access 50' from the tracks.

You could have just contributed to the existing threads on grade separation at that intersection. Starting a brand new thread to compare two intersections that have a difference in ROW by 2-3x, and significant differences in surrounding land density, use, and access is asinine.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Highway6

[Porchman]

Link to Chronicle article about a study on area railroad crossings

To calculate benefits, the study looked at costs an overpass or closure would eliminate. Those costs include delays for motorists waiting for a train to pass, the resulting emissions, the fuel wasted by idling engines and the costs to motorists involved in collisions...

.....Those who have waited for a train to pass on

Westheimer near the upscale Highland Village

shopping area may be interested to learn that crossing

ranked only 38th in ratio of benefits to cost

from adding an overpass.

[plumber2]

I seem to remember Cathy Whitmire promising grade separations at both the Westheimer and Richmond railroad crossings. Of course she only promised this until she got elected.

[RedScare]

Have you ever been to that intersection (Villa Maria @ Wellborn)? Its not rural at all. And the image that Google maps shows of it is at least 3 years old. I was just comparing the area to Westheimer because I wanted to know if the city was planning any kind of separation for that Westheimer, because I have seen how bad it gets backed up when a train comes through. The reason the city of Bryan did it was because traffic was backing up so bad and it was slowing emergency vehicles from getting to locations on the other side. It just seems kind of crazy that on a major road like Westheimer in the 4th largest city in America still has railroad crossings.

We're big enough to have emergency vehicles on both sides of our railroad crossings.

[editor]

Lots of cities are replacing their at-grade crossings with underpasses. Canadian National Railroad recently bought a big regional railroad in Chicago. In order to get the towns involved to approve (and thus win Federal Railroad Administration approval) CN had to agree to build overpasses at a bunch of intersections.

My understanding of the law is that the railroads are under no ordinary obligation to build over/underpasses. The railroads have legal priority, and the roadway is technically the interloper.

Also, the big logistical challenge isn't keeping the cars moving, it's keeping the trains moving.

[citykid09]

Lots of cities are replacing their at-grade crossings with underpasses. Canadian National Railroad recently bought a big regional railroad in Chicago. In order to get the towns involved to approve (and thus win Federal Railroad Administration approval) CN had to agree to build overpasses at a bunch of intersections.

My understanding of the law is that the railroads are under no ordinary obligation to build over/underpasses. The railroads have legal priority, and the roadway is technically the interloper.

Also, the big logistical challenge isn't keeping the cars moving, it's keeping the trains moving.

Redscare, we now have them on both sides.

Editor, do you see railroad track crossings in Chicago city limits like in Houston? Any other cities this size?

[samagon]

Los Angeles has a corridor that goes all the way from the port to the west side of town, this corridor is underground, but uncovered.

Houston should take a look at this, and choose a few of the freight lines that are heavily trafficked in heavily populated areas and consider this.

Not only do the trains get to go like 55mph through residential areas, and cars don't have to stop. I'm sure they've considered this as a possibility though.

[kylejack]

Redscare, we now have them on both sides.

Editor, do you see railroad track crossings in Chicago city limits like in Houston? Any other cities this size?

Heh, in Chicago the trains go on top of the roads.

[IronTiger]

Nope. Not gonna work. Having seen the Villa Maria overpass...it was a mess. They had to move the tracks, cut off businesses from good access (how the Citgo on Finfeather continues to exist eludes me). They also had to move the road, which was convenient for Villa Maria (a kind of run-down golf course was on one side) but no so much for Westheimer (it would require major demolition of homes and businesses). The only other method is to close off the area all together, which will seriously inconvenience people for years to come (the overpass at Harvey Mitchell in C.S. is bad enough, I know inconvenience).

Yeah, the aerial photo is about three years old.

Oh, and citykid: for "dangerous railroad intersections" in College Station/Bryan, check out West 27th Street. Wow.

[editor]

Redscare, we now have them on both sides.

Editor, do you see railroad track crossings in Chicago city limits like in Houston? Any other cities this size?

Yeah, I see them in lots of cities. They're just a fact of life. Railroads built the cities, people moved in and found themselves next to the railroads. Growing pains. In fact, I'd say Houston has a lot fewer problem freight lines than most cities I've been to, especially when you include the suburbs.

[gto250us]

Here is a side branch to this thread.

How about putting the Pierce Elevated underground, a la Boston's Big Dig? I would cost a ton of money, which would all be phoney since it could be stimulus money, and it would probably flood 2 to 3 times a year, but what the hell.

[Highway6]

How about putting the Pierce Elevated underground, a la Boston's Big Dig? I would cost a ton of money, which would all be phoney since it could be stimulus money, and it would probably flood 2 to 3 times a year, but what the hell.

And mess up all our scenic drive-by views and covered parking ??

There's a whole thread on this... knock yourself out.

[ricco67]

Los Angeles has a corridor that goes all the way from the port to the west side of town, this corridor is underground, but uncovered.

Houston should take a look at this, and choose a few of the freight lines that are heavily trafficked in heavily populated areas and consider this.

Not only do the trains get to go like 55mph through residential areas, and cars don't have to stop. I'm sure they've considered this as a possibility though.

They could do something like that, but they'd have to shut down that section and reroute while the digging is done, then there is a matter of potential flooding. With a little contingency planning I'm sure they can work around the matter, along with some healthy pumps. The Railroad is fanatical about construction speed, so I would imagine the whole thing can be done relatively quickly once the engineering is done.

Rerouting would involve cutting it off from near Washington @ I-10 to Main street @ Holmes Rd, which is a healthy reroute through the east side and THAT route is already clogged. From what I've been able to see, the nearest turn to the north is in RICHMOND up to Katy, and I gave up from there. Once I saw that, I realize why the railroad would NEVER give up that stretch of roadway.

[IronTiger]

Alternatively, we could abandon the whole stretch altogether, but that a host of problems on its own (increase travel times and fuel usage for trains, increase railroad traffic, etc.). Ignoring those problems, we'd have a great right-of-way for light rail and bikes.

[editor]

Alternatively, we could abandon the whole stretch altogether, but that a host of problems on its own (increase travel times and fuel usage for trains, increase railroad traffic, etc.). Ignoring those problems, we'd have a great right-of-way for light rail and bikes.

Considering that trains move about 80% of everything in this country, you'd gain bike trails, but have to get used to empty store shelves.

[IronTiger]

Considering that trains move about 80% of everything in this country, you'd gain bike trails, but have to get used to empty store shelves.

Well, of course. I don't want to abandon railroad tracks and was merely noting that in a semi-idealistic world, we'd abandon that segment. That and lower the Houston temperature by about 15°, on average.

[citykid09]

All these years later, I still say that Westhimer needs an over or underpass of the rail road. Its Houston's signature street and its the trains go right through a highend area. Have any of you changed your opinions about this since 2009? http://www.bryantx.gov/departments/?id=447

[mfastx]

I agree.  Eliminating at-grade crossings will also help improve on-time peformance for buses as well. 

[ArchFan]

Alternatively, how about putting the rail line in a trench?  It will probably never happen, for various reasons.  But, it seems like it would be an aesthetically attractive solution if the owners of the tracks would agree and some entity (dunno who) would cover the cost.  The main technical problem I see would be how to dig a trench in the limited right-of-way while allowing the rail traffic to continue during construction.

 

Different topic:  now that they (Harris Co. Flood Control District?) have replaced the adjacent ditch with a buried culvert, there is now some additional ground space that runs parallel to the train tracks.  I wonder if it could be put to use in some way, like a bike trail.

 

 

[SkylineView]

Can't do an underpass on Westheimer due to the flood control stuff (which they have been working to box and cover for the last year).  Could do an overpass, though would wreck the feel of Highland village.  As an example of the up & down distance required, check out this study for the 1960 rail over/under pass up north (just east of 249)... specifically Exhibits A and E.

 

It's a good question though... maybe easier on Richmond?  it looks like there is extra ROW on the east side of the tracks.

 

http://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/studies/houston/fm1960-bnsf-exhibits.html

[Montrose1100]

The only situation that would not hurt the retail close to the tracks would be moving the line below grade. Creating a bridge over would help ease the through traffic but not the vehicles immediately turning left or right on the east side of the line. The same if the road went under the line.

[citykid09]

With the new Mid Lane Mixed-Use going up, I figured that I should bring this topic back up. I just don't see how a highend area like this would not be pushing for the tracks to be burried.

[arche_757]

Why wouldn't a rail underpass work here?  I would think a sunken rail here - with park space atop would be a plus for River Oaks, Highland Village, Westheimer and every where else.  Perhaps THIS should be Houston's "big dig" - rather than some far fetched (though interesting and doable) I-45 tunnel between I-10 and I-69 @ Downtown.

Edited May 5, 2014 by arche_757

[ArchFan]

I like the idea of trenching the RR, tho' I don't know how easy it would be now that the adjacent drainage canal is trenched.   However, I'm sure the RR would not want to pay for it and I doubt the taxpayers would want to pay the whole cost, either.  So, as much as I hate to say it, I expect we'll be stuck in the usual Houston conundrum ... i.e., we'll suffer through it, and after decades, we'll wish we had bitten the bullet and done it now.

[Dakota79]

They had planned that in the eighties and Afton Oaks fought it successfully. Now they will be trapped with all the mid lane commercial etc.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Dakota79