sevfiv Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 The Rice University Police Department has learned that over the holiday weekend five people, including one Rice student, have been shot at with an air-powered weapon (possibly a BB gun) while they were walking or running on the soft sidewalk that loops around the campus. They experienced only minor injuries and did not seek medical treatment. In four of the incidents, the shooting was done from a moving vehicle, but the Rice student was shot in the arm by assailants on foot and was also pushed to the ground. RUPD is urging the Rice community to be cautious around the perimeter of campus and to report any similar incidents. The first two incidents occurred between 2 and 2:15 p.m. Sunday. A woman who was shot on the sidewalk between entrances 3 and 4 along South Main observed a white pickup truck occupied by two males headed south on Main. A man who was shot along Rice Boulevard between Greenbriar Drive and Entrance 17 also described a white pickup truck, but with three occupants. The other three incidents occurred on Labor Day between 1:20 and 1:35 p.m. A man who was shot on Rice Boulevard near Hazard Street said the shooter was in the back seat of a gray SUV, possibly a Jeep Grand Cherokee, occupied by three to four white males; the vehicle had a Texas license plate, but the victim did not see the license number. A female Rice student reported that she was shot in the arm on University Boulevard near Morningside by one of two men on foot; one of the assailants was black and pushed her to the ground before both assailants ran away. A female jogger was shot in the arm near Greenbriar Drive and Rice Boulevard by a suspect in a small gray SUV occupied by three white males. The shooter was in the right rear seat. If you have information that could help RUPD with the investigation of these incidents, call 713-348-6000. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Holy moly, I was bike riding there this weekend. Lucky me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 This is why I stopped jogging there. No thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fringe Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 South Main is getting to be a dangerous place. The Metro shooting a few months ago, this BB gun incident and this morning a jumper of 6410 Main. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barracuda Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 This is why I stopped jogging there. No thanks.As of 2pm Sunday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20thStDad Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 This is the Ashby High Rise's fault!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Timmy Chan's Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I'll stick to the 3rd Ward, thank you very much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 Regarding the suicide:The Houston Police Department has shut down a portion of Main Street, due to an apparent suicide on the Texas Medical Center side of the street at 6410 South Main. This is likely to slow traffic around Entrance 4 [of Rice University]. Please use extra caution or avoid the area if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 As of 2pm Sunday?Yes. I can't take it anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Regarding the suicide:I guess depression really does hurt. ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I wonder if it was a Red Ryder BB gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NenaE Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 South Main is getting to be a dangerous place. The Metro shooting a few months ago, this BB gun incident and this morning a jumper of 6410 Main. I don't think South Main has been particularly safe for quite a while. A German Shepherd might be a good jogging partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Forget the German Shepherd and get a CHL and carry a handgun. That way when the morons shoot you with a BB gun, you escalate to a real one that does permanent, serious damage. I guarantee the idiots will stop bothering people after that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 The jumper was Charles Rosenkrans, an ex-conductor of the Houston Grand Opera:Charles Rosekrans, who conducted the Houston Grand Opera in its early years, died Tuesday after a plunge from a Texas Medical Center building. He was 75.Houston Police Department investigators are treating the death as an apparent suicide. HPD spokesman John Cannon said Rosekrans jumped from the eighth floor of the UT Professional Building Garage at 6414 Fannin.Rosekrans was a prominent figure in opera and chamber music, said Jim Bernhard, a former general manager of the Society for the Performing Arts and Theater Under The Stars.“I think for Houston arts, he was certainly a major influence on our development and growth,” Bernhard said.Rosekrans was recruited to the HGO by its founding general director, Walter Herbert, for the 1958-59 season, the opera's records indicate. He served as chorus master, assistant and associate conductor and music director, performing with stars such as Cornell MacNeil and James McCracken. He conducted the company's world premier of Thomas Pasatieri's The Seagull.Rosekrans left the Houston opera in 1975.http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/deaths/6611128.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Why did he do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fringe Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Why did he do it?Wouldn't it be nice to know. Seemed like he was a popular dude. Maybe he got some real bad medical news and decided to take the easy way out. I often wonder if I would have the guts to do the same in that situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Wouldn't it be nice to know. Seemed like he was a popular dude. Maybe he got some real bad medical news and decided to take the easy way out. I often wonder if I would have the guts to do the same in that situation. Jumping from a building is a pretty dramatic way to off one's self. I wouldn't expect a peaceful suicide from ODing on oxycontin for someone who formerly led the Houston Grand Opera. Those theater folks, they're all about the drama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 Yeah, I don't know much about him but it is sure a dramatic way to go. There's just something creepy about wanting to make a psychologically damaging scene on your way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marmer Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I didn't know him but I had heard the name around. I don't think he had been active in the Houston musical community for quite a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Perhaps a more fitting location would have been somewhere in the theater district? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Perhaps a more fitting location would have been somewhere in the theater district?From that Wortham Center balcony that faces Jones Plaza, definitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 From that Wortham Center balcony that faces Jones Plaza, definitely.Ah yes. Even the new Hobby Center would do. The only question is: On which night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) South Main is getting to be a dangerous place. The Metro shooting a few months ago...I couldn't find the original thread about the Metro shooting, but the details were that a man was allegedly harassing people at the Dryden station, when Metro police showed up he ran over to the jogging trail and pulled a knife, and the Metro cop tasered and then shot him with a real gun, killing the suspect and injuring a nanny who was on the trail. Anyway, that's my little recap, because the officer involved has killed himself.An unidentified male's body was discovered at 3:45 a.m. September 5 in a car in the 9300 block of Richmond."Patrolofficers responded to a shooting-in-progress call and found the victimsitting in the driver's seat of his vehicle with a gunshot wound to thehead," HPD said at the time. HPD spokesman Victor Senties tells Hair Balls, "The case has been closed out as a suicide."http://blogs.houston...cop_suicide.php Edited September 22, 2009 by kylejack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 My guess is Caitlin didn't show up for class today Four people have been charged in connection with BB gun shootings around Rice University and along the Gulf Freeway, KPRC Local 2 reported Thursday.Rice University and Houston police said Caitlin Barnett, 19, John Michael Chargois, 22, Paul Helton, age unknown, and Bonnie Mugg, 21, have been charged with felony aggravated assault. Chargois, Helton and Mugg have been arrested. A warrant has been issued for the arrest of Barnett, who is a Rice University student. Barnett and Chargois are the only two suspected to be involved in all of the shootings. Four people were wounded by BBs while running on the soft city sidewalk around Rice University's perimeter on Sept. 6 and 7. Two of the shootings happened near South Main at Campus Entrances No. 3 and No. 4. Other shootings occurred near Greenbriar Drive at Rice Boulevard. One of the victims was shot then knocked to the ground as she walked on University Boulevard near Rice Village. The BBs were fired from passing vehicles, police said. The victims suffered minor injuries and did not seek medical treatment. Police said other BB shootings were reported on Bissonnet Street and two were reported on the Gulf Freeway. The BBs were allegedly fired from a white Ford Ranger owned by Barnett and a gray Ford Escape owned by Mugg, police said. http://www.click2houston.com/news/21103820/detail.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) Heh, she's on the debate team. I guess she's exploring new methods of persuasion. Looks like she also competed in a college forensics tournament. For someone apparently studying criminology she didn't cover her tracks well. Edited September 24, 2009 by kylejack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Found all 3 of the apprehended ones on Facebook, they all look pretty young. Can't be sure about which Caitlin is the right Caitlin, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NenaE Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 A "Rice" owl was involved in this crime? ...I'm speechless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Yeah, and her arrest is still "pending" while two remain in jail and one posted bond...Chargois and Helton remain in the Harris County Jail with bail set at $30,000 each. Mugg was released Thursday after her bail was posted.Barnett's arrest is still pending, Rice University officials said.http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6635836.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Heh, she's on the debate team. I guess she's exploring new methods of persuasion. Looks like she also competed in a college forensics tournament. For someone apparently studying criminology she didn't cover her tracks well.Forensics is another term for a speech and debate squad as well as the science of criminology. It's sorta confusing, I know, but forensics tournaments have nothing to do with giving awards, judging speed and accuracy for teams and individuals, for analyzing dead bodies to determine time and cause of death. The reality of a forensics tournament is considerably less exciting than that.In other words, the student may not have been trained to cover her tracks, but she'd be trained to convince others she had nothing to do with the crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Forensics is another term for a speech and debate squad as well as the science of criminology. It's sorta confusing, I know, but forensics tournaments have nothing to do with giving awards, judging speed and accuracy for teams and individuals, for analyzing dead bodies to determine time and cause of death. The reality of a forensics tournament is considerably less exciting than that.In other words, the student may not have been trained to cover her tracks, but she'd be trained to convince others she had nothing to do with the crime.Haa, well that makes more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTAWACS Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Haa, well that makes absolutely no sense.I fixed it. Ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 I fixed it. Ugh.I've got a high school letter jacket in "forensics." I don't think I've ever worn it, not even once. It was enough that people assumed I was going to look at corpses when in reality I was just going to present the affirmative argument in a Lincoln-Douglas styled debate. I agree though, it makes no sense. Over the years I've grown accustomed to having people not quite comprehend exactly what it was that I do. When I was a practicing archaeologist, family members would constantly send me newpaper and magazine clippings about recently discovered dinosaurs. It didn't matter how many times I explained it, they'd keep sending it. Same with forensics. Eventually, as with the archaeology, I settled on letting people assume I spent one weekend a month looking at dead bodies. But, you HAIFers are a sharp lot. I knew none of you would want to operate under false assumptions.AtticaFlinch = always here to help 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 A judge set bond Friday for one of four people charged in a series of BB gun attacks near Rice University.John Chargois is facing felony aggravated assault charges and is being held on $30,000 bond. http://www.khou.com/video/index.html?nvid=401945http://www.khou.com/news/local/crime/stories/khou090925_tnt_bb-gun-attacks-suspect.1b59d5b53.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 A judge set bond Friday for one of four people charged in a series of BB gun attacks near Rice University.John Chargois is facing felony aggravated assault charges and is being held on $30,000 bond. http://www.khou.com/...tml?nvid=401945http://www.khou.com/....1b59d5b53.htmlHere's what I don't get. The oldest of these kids is what, 22? They're shooting at people with BB guns, not AK-47s. Is there actually a single victim hurt by these so-called attacks? In order for an assault to be a felony aggravated charge, there must be a weapon (check - sorta, if you're a bird I guess) and the intent to do bodily harm (ehhh... I doubt it). I'm pretty sure these are just kids caught up in what's essentially a prank and nothing more. It ain't as if they're auditioning for the villain role in the next Batman movie. It's a shame these kids aren't let off with a stern warning and a slap on the wrist. No harm, no foul. A $30k bond is outrageous for a BB prank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Its kind of a funny situation but if A Christmas Story has taught us anything its taught us that they could have shot somebody's eye out. BBs aren't all that dangerous, but there's plenty of fleshy vulnerabilities on the human body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Here's what I don't get. The oldest of these kids is what, 22? They're shooting at people with BB guns, not AK-47s. Is there actually a single victim hurt by these so-called attacks? In order for an assault to be a felony aggravated charge, there must be a weapon (check - sorta, if you're a bird I guess) and the intent to do bodily harm (ehhh... I doubt it). I'm pretty sure these are just kids caught up in what's essentially a prank and nothing more. It ain't as if they're auditioning for the villain role in the next Batman movie. It's a shame these kids aren't let off with a stern warning and a slap on the wrist. No harm, no foul. A $30k bond is outrageous for a BB prank.You might think differently if YOU were the one that got hit.I just liked how some people were quick to proclaim that "stuff like that" doesn't happen in the area and immediately wanted increased patrols.All they had to do was look within. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Hurry up and arrest the final BB sniper so that its safe once again for me to ride my bike to Valhalla for 65 cent beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Yeah, 22 is the oldest apparently. The "unknown age" one, Paul Helton, is actually 19 I think.Wonder why Barnett's arrest is "pending." Is she actually on the run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Looks about 19 to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 You might think differently if YOU were the one that got hit.Well, maybe. It's pretty difficult to say how I'd react without having it actually happen. I suppose had my eye been shot out, I'd be pretty pissed, but that didn't happen to me or any of the "victims." I don't even think a BB is capable of breaking human skin except at close range. What's the worst that happened to these victims? They have a welt? A bruise? I just wrote on another thread about how cops can't be arsed to investigate burglaries, but the justice system is more than willing to throw the book at a few kids for being cheeky? You're right, I might feel differently if I had been hit, but even then I'd be able to recognize that our justice system's priorities are way out of whack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 You charge them with the biggest crime you think you potentially could convict them for, and if you wish to bargain down with them later you're free to do so. If you start with something minor there's nothing to bargain down to. Anyway, 30K bail means they can use a bail bondsman and get out for like 3K, right? That's not so bad, considering that they had the police running all over the area trying to catch them.I mean, if they want to work out a deal I'm sure the DA will cut them a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanS Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) Well, maybe. It's pretty difficult to say how I'd react without having it actually happen. I suppose had my eye been shot out, I'd be pretty pissed, but that didn't happen to me or any of the "victims." I don't even think a BB is capable of breaking human skin except at close range. What's the worst that happened to these victims? They have a welt? A bruise? I just wrote on another thread about how cops can't be arsed to investigate burglaries, but the justice system is more than willing to throw the book at a few kids for being cheeky? You're right, I might feel differently if I had been hit, but even then I'd be able to recognize that our justice system's priorities are way out of whack.They're shooting people with a gun, for no reason. BB gun, 12 gauge, 9MM - doesn't matter.Send them to jail, as a message to others. EDIT: Maybe better would be the Singapore approach to criminal punishment: the cane. 100 cane lashes, each. It works. Just try to spit your gum out on a sidewalk in Singapore. Edited September 25, 2009 by BryanS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 They're shooting people with a gun, for no reason. BB gun, 12 gauge, 9MM - doesn't matter.I'm not going to spend too much time trying to convince you to think my way about this issue, but surely you must be daft if you can't see the difference between a BB gun and those other guns. Can you discern a difference between a 12 gauge and an ICBM with a nuclear warhead?The world exists in degrees and clines, not polar absolutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 You charge them with the biggest crime you think you potentially could convict them for, and if you wish to bargain down with them later you're free to do so. If you start with something minor there's nothing to bargain down to. Anyway, 30K bail means they can use a bail bondsman and get out for like 3K, right? That's not so bad, considering that they had the police running all over the area trying to catch them.I mean, if they want to work out a deal I'm sure the DA will cut them a break.About the $30k to $3k thing, that money is not refundable. A bail bondsman acts as an agent between the courts and the criminal. When a court sets bail at $30,000, then that means they must receive $30,000 before the accused is released. A bondsman gives a loan with a 10% rate of interest upfront to get an accused person out of jail. So yeah, it's only $3k, but once that money's been spent, no matter the outcome of the trial, it's gone. And, I'm sure for a college student who was just out acting stupid, as college students are wont to do (even at tony Rice), it's a huge setback.Had this been a high-pressured water gun attack, even if it also caused welts and/or bruises, this never would have made the news. (Or a paint gun for that matter - and they leave similar injuries to BB guns.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanS Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 I'm not going to spend too much time trying to convince you to think my way about this issue, but surely you must be daft if you can't see the difference between a BB gun and those other guns. Can you discern a difference between a 12 gauge and an ICBM with a nuclear warhead? The world exists in degrees and clines, not polar absolutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 The purpose of bail is to ensure the accused shows up for trial. Obviously, there is some concern that the student with the $30,000 bail is going to leave town and not return. Felony assault sounds like the appropriate charge to me. Followed by permanent expulsion from Rice for being too stupid to continue there as a student. There's a huge difference between a prank that causes embarrassment and one that causes any physical harm at all. The idiots are actually lucky that they didn't assault someone who was armed with a centerfire pistol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLWM8609 Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 The idiots are actually lucky that they didn't assault someone who was armed with a centerfire pistol.That's probably why they did it at Rice and not at MacGregor Park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 They're shooting people with a gun, for no reason. BB gun, 12 gauge, 9MM - doesn't matter.Send them to jail, as a message to others. EDIT: Maybe better would be the Singapore approach to criminal punishment: the cane. 100 cane lashes, each. It works. Just try to spit your gum out on a sidewalk in Singapore.Pretty much as far off the mark as one can get, legally speaking.Aggravated assault comes in several flavors. If a firearm or knife is used, they are considered deadly weapons by definition. Any other weapon must be used in a manner that can cause death or serious bodily injury. Therefore, a car used to drive away from the scene is not a deadly weapon, but a car used to run over someone...or even attempt to run them over...is a deadly weapon.Air guns can qualify as deadly weapons. Various cases have been upheld on appeal as deadly weapons. It used to be that pellet guns were deadly weapons and BB guns were not. Then CO2 BB guns were added to the group. Now, even hand pumped BB guns can be considered deadly weapons in some cases. It depends on the type of gun, how it is used, and where it is aimed, etc. It is not automatic.You charge them with the biggest crime you think you potentially could convict them for, and if you wish to bargain down with them later you're free to do so. If you start with something minor there's nothing to bargain down to. Anyway, 30K bail means they can use a bail bondsman and get out for like 3K, right? That's not so bad, considering that they had the police running all over the area trying to catch them.I mean, if they want to work out a deal I'm sure the DA will cut them a break.You win a cookie. This is absolutely correct.FWIW, $30,000 is the standard bond amount for aggravated assault in Harris County. Sounds like these kids neither caught a break, nor were made an example. They simply got the usual bond. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFlinch Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 There's a huge difference between a prank that causes embarrassment and one that causes any physical harm at all. When did Americans become such pansies? Any physical harm at all? Maybe you're right though, maybe it's good none of the "victims" had a centerfire pistol. Because it would have been just too much awesomeness had those darn kids actually been killed in retaliation like they should have been, am I right? That would have been an appropriate response. Then, the "victim" would have been a hero for protecting the neighborhood against the scourge of BB gun toting Rice nerds. Taking the life of other people is definitely a good way of eliminating welts and bruises. Had I known it was appropriate, I'd have carried a nine when I was nine. Whenever a bully gave me an indian armrub, I could have busted a cap in his ass and screamed at his corpse, "That's what you get for causing physical harm!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanS Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 When did Americans become such pansies? Any physical harm at all? Maybe you're right though, maybe it's good none of the "victims" had a centerfire pistol. Because it would have been just too much awesomeness had those darn kids actually been killed in retaliation like they should have been, am I right? That would have been an appropriate response. Then, the "victim" would have been a hero for protecting the neighborhood against the scourge of BB gun toting Rice nerds. Taking the life of other people is definitely a good way of eliminating welts and bruises. Had I known it was appropriate, I'd have carried a nine when I was nine. Whenever a bully gave me an indian armrub, I could have busted a cap in his ass and screamed at his corpse, "That's what you get for causing physical harm!" Nothing about becoming pansies. But about becoming sick and tired of the nusiance. Whether it’s being shot with BB gun, graffiti, loud music, vehicle theft/break ins, home invasions, etc. If we integrated a sensible rattan cane element into our criminal punishment system, we'd have less of this garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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