Rice University Jogging Loop

[LTAWACS]

Haa, well that makes absolutely no sense.

I fixed it. Ugh.

[AtticaFlinch]

I fixed it. Ugh.

I've got a high school letter jacket in "forensics." I don't think I've ever worn it, not even once. It was enough that people assumed I was going to look at corpses when in reality I was just going to present the affirmative argument in a Lincoln-Douglas styled debate. I agree though, it makes no sense. Over the years I've grown accustomed to having people not quite comprehend exactly what it was that I do. When I was a practicing archaeologist, family members would constantly send me newpaper and magazine clippings about recently discovered dinosaurs. It didn't matter how many times I explained it, they'd keep sending it. Same with forensics. Eventually, as with the archaeology, I settled on letting people assume I spent one weekend a month looking at dead bodies. But, you HAIFers are a sharp lot. I knew none of you would want to operate under false assumptions.

AtticaFlinch = always here to help

[sevfiv]

A judge set bond Friday for one of four people charged in a series of BB gun attacks near Rice University.

John Chargois is facing felony aggravated assault charges and is being held on $30,000 bond.

http://www.khou.com/video/index.html?nvid=401945

http://www.khou.com/news/local/crime/stories/khou090925_tnt_bb-gun-attacks-suspect.1b59d5b53.html

[AtticaFlinch]

A judge set bond Friday for one of four people charged in a series of BB gun attacks near Rice University.

John Chargois is facing felony aggravated assault charges and is being held on $30,000 bond.

http://www.khou.com/...tml?nvid=401945

http://www.khou.com/....1b59d5b53.html

Here's what I don't get. The oldest of these kids is what, 22? They're shooting at people with BB guns, not AK-47s. Is there actually a single victim hurt by these so-called attacks? In order for an assault to be a felony aggravated charge, there must be a weapon (check - sorta, if you're a bird I guess) and the intent to do bodily harm (ehhh... I doubt it). I'm pretty sure these are just kids caught up in what's essentially a prank and nothing more. It ain't as if they're auditioning for the villain role in the next Batman movie. It's a shame these kids aren't let off with a stern warning and a slap on the wrist. No harm, no foul. A $30k bond is outrageous for a BB prank.

[kylejack]

Its kind of a funny situation but if A Christmas Story has taught us anything its taught us that they could have shot somebody's eye out. BBs aren't all that dangerous, but there's plenty of fleshy vulnerabilities on the human body.

[ricco67]

Here's what I don't get. The oldest of these kids is what, 22? They're shooting at people with BB guns, not AK-47s. Is there actually a single victim hurt by these so-called attacks? In order for an assault to be a felony aggravated charge, there must be a weapon (check - sorta, if you're a bird I guess) and the intent to do bodily harm (ehhh... I doubt it). I'm pretty sure these are just kids caught up in what's essentially a prank and nothing more. It ain't as if they're auditioning for the villain role in the next Batman movie. It's a shame these kids aren't let off with a stern warning and a slap on the wrist. No harm, no foul. A $30k bond is outrageous for a BB prank.

You might think differently if YOU were the one that got hit.

I just liked how some people were quick to proclaim that "stuff like that" doesn't happen in the area and immediately wanted increased patrols.

All they had to do was look within.

[kylejack]

Hurry up and arrest the final BB sniper so that its safe once again for me to ride my bike to Valhalla for 65 cent beer.

[sevfiv]

Yeah, 22 is the oldest apparently. The "unknown age" one, Paul Helton, is actually 19 I think.

Wonder why Barnett's arrest is "pending." Is she actually on the run?

[kylejack]

Looks about 19 to me.

[AtticaFlinch]

You might think differently if YOU were the one that got hit.

Well, maybe. It's pretty difficult to say how I'd react without having it actually happen. I suppose had my eye been shot out, I'd be pretty pissed, but that didn't happen to me or any of the "victims." I don't even think a BB is capable of breaking human skin except at close range. What's the worst that happened to these victims? They have a welt? A bruise? I just wrote on another thread about how cops can't be arsed to investigate burglaries, but the justice system is more than willing to throw the book at a few kids for being cheeky? You're right, I might feel differently if I had been hit, but even then I'd be able to recognize that our justice system's priorities are way out of whack.

[kylejack]

You charge them with the biggest crime you think you potentially could convict them for, and if you wish to bargain down with them later you're free to do so. If you start with something minor there's nothing to bargain down to. Anyway, 30K bail means they can use a bail bondsman and get out for like 3K, right? That's not so bad, considering that they had the police running all over the area trying to catch them.

I mean, if they want to work out a deal I'm sure the DA will cut them a break.

[BryanS]

Well, maybe. It's pretty difficult to say how I'd react without having it actually happen. I suppose had my eye been shot out, I'd be pretty pissed, but that didn't happen to me or any of the "victims." I don't even think a BB is capable of breaking human skin except at close range. What's the worst that happened to these victims? They have a welt? A bruise? I just wrote on another thread about how cops can't be arsed to investigate burglaries, but the justice system is more than willing to throw the book at a few kids for being cheeky? You're right, I might feel differently if I had been hit, but even then I'd be able to recognize that our justice system's priorities are way out of whack.

They're shooting people with a gun, for no reason. BB gun, 12 gauge, 9MM - doesn't matter.

Send them to jail, as a message to others.

EDIT: Maybe better would be the Singapore approach to criminal punishment: the cane. 100 cane lashes, each. It works. Just try to spit your gum out on a sidewalk in Singapore.

[AtticaFlinch]

They're shooting people with a gun, for no reason. BB gun, 12 gauge, 9MM - doesn't matter.

I'm not going to spend too much time trying to convince you to think my way about this issue, but surely you must be daft if you can't see the difference between a BB gun and those other guns. Can you discern a difference between a 12 gauge and an ICBM with a nuclear warhead?

The world exists in degrees and clines, not polar absolutes.

[AtticaFlinch]

You charge them with the biggest crime you think you potentially could convict them for, and if you wish to bargain down with them later you're free to do so. If you start with something minor there's nothing to bargain down to. Anyway, 30K bail means they can use a bail bondsman and get out for like 3K, right? That's not so bad, considering that they had the police running all over the area trying to catch them.

I mean, if they want to work out a deal I'm sure the DA will cut them a break.

About the $30k to $3k thing, that money is not refundable. A bail bondsman acts as an agent between the courts and the criminal. When a court sets bail at $30,000, then that means they must receive $30,000 before the accused is released. A bondsman gives a loan with a 10% rate of interest upfront to get an accused person out of jail. So yeah, it's only $3k, but once that money's been spent, no matter the outcome of the trial, it's gone. And, I'm sure for a college student who was just out acting stupid, as college students are wont to do (even at tony Rice), it's a huge setback.

Had this been a high-pressured water gun attack, even if it also caused welts and/or bruises, this never would have made the news. (Or a paint gun for that matter - and they leave similar injuries to BB guns.)

[BryanS]

I'm not going to spend too much time trying to convince you to think my way about this issue, but surely you must be daft if you can't see the difference between a BB gun and those other guns. Can you discern a difference between a 12 gauge and an ICBM with a nuclear warhead?

The world exists in degrees and clines, not polar absolutes.

[Ross]

The purpose of bail is to ensure the accused shows up for trial. Obviously, there is some concern that the student with the $30,000 bail is going to leave town and not return. Felony assault sounds like the appropriate charge to me. Followed by permanent expulsion from Rice for being too stupid to continue there as a student. There's a huge difference between a prank that causes embarrassment and one that causes any physical harm at all. The idiots are actually lucky that they didn't assault someone who was armed with a centerfire pistol.

[JLWM8609]

The idiots are actually lucky that they didn't assault someone who was armed with a centerfire pistol.

That's probably why they did it at Rice and not at MacGregor Park.

[RedScare]

They're shooting people with a gun, for no reason. BB gun, 12 gauge, 9MM - doesn't matter.

Send them to jail, as a message to others.

EDIT: Maybe better would be the Singapore approach to criminal punishment: the cane. 100 cane lashes, each. It works. Just try to spit your gum out on a sidewalk in Singapore.

Pretty much as far off the mark as one can get, legally speaking.

Aggravated assault comes in several flavors. If a firearm or knife is used, they are considered deadly weapons by definition. Any other weapon must be used in a manner that can cause death or serious bodily injury. Therefore, a car used to drive away from the scene is not a deadly weapon, but a car used to run over someone...or even attempt to run them over...is a deadly weapon.

Air guns can qualify as deadly weapons. Various cases have been upheld on appeal as deadly weapons. It used to be that pellet guns were deadly weapons and BB guns were not. Then CO2 BB guns were added to the group. Now, even hand pumped BB guns can be considered deadly weapons in some cases. It depends on the type of gun, how it is used, and where it is aimed, etc. It is not automatic.

You charge them with the biggest crime you think you potentially could convict them for, and if you wish to bargain down with them later you're free to do so. If you start with something minor there's nothing to bargain down to. Anyway, 30K bail means they can use a bail bondsman and get out for like 3K, right? That's not so bad, considering that they had the police running all over the area trying to catch them.

I mean, if they want to work out a deal I'm sure the DA will cut them a break.

You win a cookie. This is absolutely correct.

FWIW, $30,000 is the standard bond amount for aggravated assault in Harris County. Sounds like these kids neither caught a break, nor were made an example. They simply got the usual bond.

[AtticaFlinch]

There's a huge difference between a prank that causes embarrassment and one that causes any physical harm at all.

When did Americans become such pansies? Any physical harm at all? Maybe you're right though, maybe it's good none of the "victims" had a centerfire pistol. Because it would have been just too much awesomeness had those darn kids actually been killed in retaliation like they should have been, am I right? That would have been an appropriate response. Then, the "victim" would have been a hero for protecting the neighborhood against the scourge of BB gun toting Rice nerds. Taking the life of other people is definitely a good way of eliminating welts and bruises. Had I known it was appropriate, I'd have carried a nine when I was nine. Whenever a bully gave me an indian armrub, I could have busted a cap in his ass and screamed at his corpse, "That's what you get for causing physical harm!"

[BryanS]

When did Americans become such pansies? Any physical harm at all? Maybe you're right though, maybe it's good none of the "victims" had a centerfire pistol. Because it would have been just too much awesomeness had those darn kids actually been killed in retaliation like they should have been, am I right? That would have been an appropriate response. Then, the "victim" would have been a hero for protecting the neighborhood against the scourge of BB gun toting Rice nerds. Taking the life of other people is definitely a good way of eliminating welts and bruises. Had I known it was appropriate, I'd have carried a nine when I was nine. Whenever a bully gave me an indian armrub, I could have busted a cap in his ass and screamed at his corpse, "That's what you get for causing physical harm!"

Nothing about becoming pansies.

But about becoming sick and tired of the nusiance.

Whether it’s being shot with BB gun, graffiti, loud music, vehicle theft/break ins, home invasions, etc.

If we integrated a sensible rattan cane element into our criminal punishment system, we'd have less of this garbage.

[JLWM8609]

When did Americans become such pansies? Any physical harm at all? Maybe you're right though, maybe it's good none of the "victims" had a centerfire pistol. Because it would have been just too much awesomeness had those darn kids actually been killed in retaliation like they should have been, am I right?

Kids? Seriously? Those fools are some grown ass adults. You can't explain their behavior with "kids will be kids." I bet if these were students from another university, they'd be labeled as troublemakers with the potential to become violent thugs. Why stick up for them just because they're "Rice nerds"?

Taking the life of other people is definitely a good way of eliminating welts and bruises. Had I known it was appropriate, I'd have carried a nine when I was nine. Whenever a bully gave me an indian armrub, I could have busted a cap in his ass and screamed at his corpse, "That's what you get for causing physical harm!"

Nobody is saying it's appropriate. What I believe is that when a gun carrying law abiding citizen or police officer is fired upon with a real gun or BB gun, they don't have the time to say "wait, let me go walk up to the shooter and ask if their gun is real so I can decide whether or not to respond with real bullets." When it's perceived that your life is in danger, split second decisions are made. If the Rice shooters had been fired upon with real ammunition, it would've been a horrible thing that nobody should have to go through, but they wouldn't exactly be blameless little angels either.

[TheNiche]

I'm not going to spend too much time trying to convince you to think my way about this issue, but surely you must be daft if you can't see the difference between a BB gun and those other guns. Can you discern a difference between a 12 gauge and an ICBM with a nuclear warhead?

The world exists in degrees and clines, not polar absolutes.

If you maliciously shoot someone with a 12GA, I think you should get the death penalty. If you order that an ICBM be launched on a rival country or city, I think that you should get the death penalty. It has nothing to do with the amount of damage you actually inflicted; it's that you were willing to inflict possibly-deadly damage in the first place. Clearly that is anti-social behavior, and if you're going to go around doing that kind of thing, society has no use for you except that you are euthanized, with your body chopped into tiny bits and processed into chicken feed like so many cats and dogs at BARC.

[NenaE]

That's probably why they did it at Rice and not at MacGregor Park.

Thanks, for that line, I needed a good laugh. Very true line. The only thing I have to say, as a native, 4th generation Houstonian & Texan, is that we don't take too kindly to getting shot at with any kind of gun. They did that in the wrong place.

[AtticaFlinch]

Whoa. I seem to have touched on a nerve here. For the record, I didn't say those kids (and yes, they're kids - lest we forget our own levels of impetuosity and foolishness at the same age) didn't break a law and deserve punishment. However, the punishment recommended for a felony aggravated assault charge is hardly commensurate with the crime of shooting people with BBs. Some people around these parts are displaying the worst characteristics of bloodthirsty mob justice. Saddling someone for the rest of their lives with a felony for a dumb decision made when young and stupid shouldn't be a decision made capriciously. Just because what they did made you angry doesn't mean these kids shouldn't be afforded the beneficence of a just legal system. It's our duty as citizens of this country to use logic and not emotions to uphold justice.

As for Falling Down, vigilantism is also a crime. Is that one more allowable in your eyes? Is that a crime you find justifiable in action? I bet those of you so intent on throwing the book at these kids for violating the law break the law yourselves in a million different ways on a regular basis. How about a little moral relativism and some compassion? Pope John Paul II was able to forgive the man who tried to take his life (with real bullets!), and while I'm not trying to suggest anyone in Texas is as upright a man as the pope, especially that pope in particular, perhaps we could learn something positive from his example.

Had any of those "victims" required anything more than a band-aid and a cold compress, I might feel differently. Perhaps someone can enlighten the rest of us as to the dastardly outcome of these heinous crimes. Did anyone end up in the ICU? Were any eyes shot out? How many people even know if the gun was a pump air gun or a CO2 gun? How many facts about this case do any of you self-appointed executioners even know? Considering I don't know anything outside what the newspaper's written, I'll reserve my judgement for a time when I'm considerably more informed on the subject. Perhaps the rest of you can do the same.

[kylejack]

Whoa. I seem to have touched on a nerve here. For the record, I didn't say those kids (and yes, they're kids - lest we forget our own levels of impetuosity and foolishness at the same age) didn't break a law and deserve punishment. However, the punishment recommended for a felony aggravated assault charge is hardly commensurate with the crime of shooting people with BBs. Some people around these parts are displaying the worst characteristics of bloodthirsty mob justice. Saddling someone for the rest of their lives with a felony for a dumb decision made when young and stupid shouldn't be a decision made capriciously. Just because what they did made you angry doesn't mean these kids shouldn't be afforded the beneficence of a just legal system. It's our duty as citizens of this country to use logic and not emotions to uphold justice.

Yeesh, they're not being sentenced yet. They will be tried on the charge and given a fair trial to determine whether or not they are guilty of felony aggravated assault. Or more likely, they'll plead out to a misdemeanor like assault.

Had any of those "victims" required anything more than a band-aid and a cold compress, I might feel differently. Perhaps someone can enlighten the rest of us as to the dastardly outcome of these heinous crimes. Did anyone end up in the ICU? Were any eyes shot out? How many people even know if the gun was a pump air gun or a CO2 gun? How many facts about this case do any of you self-appointed executioners even know? Considering I don't know anything outside what the newspaper's written, I'll reserve my judgement for a time when I'm considerably more informed on the subject. Perhaps the rest of you can do the same.

You haven't reserved judgment, you have already decided that they should not be charged with aggravated assault.

[AtticaFlinch]

Yeesh, they're not being sentenced yet. They will be tried on the charge and given a fair trial to determine whether or not they are guilty of felony aggravated assault. Or more likely, they'll plead out to a misdemeanor like assault.

You haven't reserved judgment, you have already decided that they should not be charged with aggravated assault.

Fair enough, I suppose I did pass judgment, but at least my judgment erred on the side of "Innocent until proven guilty," and not the other way around. Can you see a difference, and can you understand why that's important to maintain a society built upon the rule of law? In a society like ours, one not founded upon a common religion, ethnicity or culture, the only thing that binds us together is law. Justice can't be meted out arbitrarily and based on emotions. Criminal cases must be decided beyond all reasonable doubt, and none of the information given proves that in the least, not for any of the "criminals."

As for the charge vs sentence thing goes, try telling anyone who has so much as been charged with a felony that their life hasn't been irrevocably altered by it, regardless of the ultimate verdict. Having a felony charge on their record pretty much sentences a person to a harder life. You know, chances are good the families of these Rice students can probably afford reasonably good attorneys, and will likely be able to reduce the charge to a misdemeanor assault (which it most definitely appears to be). It's unfortunate, had the kids been a little less blessed with opportunity, and they couldn't afford quality attorneys, they'd likely be stuck with the felony for the remainder of their lives. I suppose, if the DA wanted these kids to ultimately end up with a misdemeanor, they should have been charged with a misdemeanor. I have a real problem with justice being granted only due to some underhanded backroom wheeling and dealing. Justice shouldn't be decided the way trinkets are purchased at a Matamoros market.

[kylejack]

Fair enough, I suppose I did pass judgment, but at least my judgment erred on the side of "Innocent until proven guilty," and not the other way around. Can you see a difference, and can you understand why that's important to maintain a society built upon the rule of law? In a society like ours, one not founded upon a common religion, ethnicity or culture, the only thing that binds us together is law. Justice can't be meted out arbitrarily and based on emotions. Criminal cases must be decided beyond all reasonable doubt, and none of the information given proves that in the least, not for any of the "criminals."

We're not his trial, we're just internet pundits. They will be given their fair trial or they will plead out.

As for the charge vs sentence thing goes, try telling anyone who has so much as been charged with a felony that their life hasn't been irrevocably altered by it, regardless of the ultimate verdict. Having a felony charge on their record pretty much sentences a person to a harder life. You know, chances are good the families of these Rice students can probably afford reasonably good attorneys, and will likely be able to reduce the charge to a misdemeanor assault (which it most definitely appears to be). It's unfortunate, had the kids been a little less blessed with opportunity, and they couldn't afford quality attorneys, they'd likely be stuck with the felony for the remainder of their lives. I suppose, if the DA wanted these kids to ultimately end up with a misdemeanor, they should have been charged with a misdemeanor. I have a real problem with justice being granted only due to some underhanded backroom wheeling and dealing. Justice shouldn't be decided the way trinkets are purchased at a Matamoros market.

They have been charged with aggravated assault because the facts seem to indicate that is what they have done. They allegedly committed assault with a firearm, albeit an ineffective one. A DA charges with the highest crime he feels likely to convict on and then he has the option of pleading down with them if he's sympathetic to their situation or if he thinks he's unlikely to convict. If they don't plead down, a fair jury of their peers will decide if they are guilty of aggravated assault.

[TheNiche]

Whoa. I seem to have touched on a nerve here. For the record, I didn't say those kids (and yes, they're kids - lest we forget our own levels of impetuosity and foolishness at the same age) didn't break a law and deserve punishment. However, the punishment recommended for a felony aggravated assault charge is hardly commensurate with the crime of shooting people with BBs.

I can cite plenty of things that I did wrong when I was in college. I flunked tests and even a few courses. I stuck my foot in my mouth plenty of times around women. I pissed off coworkers by being a know-it-all. These errors had consequences, I learned from them, and probably others around me learned things as well from my crap examples. But I never once got around to joyriding, shooting at pedestrians with an air rifle.

As you suggest, the consequence should be commensurate with the offense. If you touch a hot stove, you need to know that you're going to get burned; and if you haven't figured it out, then perhaps you're just dumb enough to need to be burned in order to teach you the lesson. Assualt with a deadly weapon seems like an appropriate charge, however I'm sure that they'll receive leniency in sentencing.

...as for the Pope comments, screw that guy. He isn't the boss of me.

[AtticaFlinch]

...as for the Pope comments, screw that guy. He isn't the boss of me.

Nor me. However, I still think the example is relevant.

[TheNiche]

Nor me. However, I still think the example is relevant.

Why does it matter who sets the example, then? Examples get set all the time. Sometimes it's a religious authority figure, other times its a judge, and othertimes still it is nature itself. Sometimes the bad guy sets the example (and gets away with it); other times a good example is inflicted upon him. I think that we can agree upon that examples clearly influence human behavior.

...all the more reason to make an example of these fools.