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Tiko

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I'm going to say one thing on this thread then never reopen it again. For all those that want the government to run their healthcare need to remember something...

Keeping in mind that GWB (who liberals consider an idiot got elected TWICE).... Sarah Palin could win in 2012, 2016, or 2020. Do you really want to risk having her in charge of your healthcare?

Well, since you won't be opening this thread again you won't ever know that I proclaimed this the single most ignorant reason to oppose healthcare reform ever...just ahead of the 'death panel'.

I note that everyone touting how great their health insurance is seems to be healthy, and pays very little for it. It is more than a little ironic that on the subject of INSURANCE, these healthy and employed individuals would gamble that they will always be healthy and employed. Then again, when it's all about the ideology as opposed to good policy, things tend to get goofy.

Edited by RedScare
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Sarah Palin could win in 2012, 2016, or 2020.

Wow. Um... yeah. :huh:

By 2020, my guess is that the Republican primary will think Palin is too liberal. Instead, they will elect some stay-at-home mom who speaks in tongues and claims Jesus told her how to fix this country. Oh, and Joe the Plumber will be her VP.

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No. Health care and health insurance are not the same thing. In the current system, it is possible to pay thousands over the years, while using very little actual 'care,' Then one day when you need care, the so-called insurance will try to refuse to cover the claim. It is nothing short of a criminal racket. One day, a few good plaintiff's lawyers will find a way to prosecute health insurance companies under federal RICO law.

The system is broken for too many people. Including people who have spent their lives playing by the rules, paying for benefits they never get. Most people understand the concept of pooled risk. That they pay in. But with the understanding that they will eventually get something in return. Private insurance companies not forced to compete will do everything in their power to make sure you pay in, and don't get anything in return. I am willing to gamble on the new option. Hell, I'm pissed they've taken single payer off the table.

To everyone who is happy with their current coverage and is pissed at what will potentially be 'stolen' from them: do a little pricing experiment. Pretend you work, and have a SAH wife who's pregnant. You get laid off and lose your employer-provided coverage. Assume you have to cover you, your wife with her preexisting condition, and your 4 year old, who has mild asthma. Shop those private company rates and get back to me. That is an everyday scenario which puts health insurance, (as well as health care that involves hospital stays, complicated blood work, imaging, surgery, etc,) out of reach in this country for middle-class people. Every day families in this country become at-risk for medically related financial ruin through no fault of their own.

I understand the compulsion to try and make a stand on principle. But we can't afford the principle anymore, simple as that.

It is too expensive, but its too expensive now, not because the insurance companies and the doctors making big profits are making it too expensive - its too expensive because hospitals are forced to care for everyone that shows up whether or not they pay, and because insurance companies are given various non compete areas, and are forced to follow ridiculous number of state laws that vary drastically between the states. As long as you force people to take patients against their will and force people to pay for other peoples care against their will, everything stays screwed up. How do we solve the problem? Its not that hard. Letting the government control it, is not going to make it cheaper, it will get more expensive, only this time, instead of the cost being borne by the people who are using the service, the cost will be borne by the person who is working and earning money - the "millionaires" (those making more than $200,000/yr) will start paying more and more and more, until they say I quit and go somewhere else.

You want ways to make it cheaper, here are some very good starting points:

1) If a hospital could turn people away and send someone to a redi clinic for a prescription ($60) instead of seeing them in the emergency room ($1600) health care gets cheaper.

2) If you prevent scummy PI lawyers from making millions on accidents, health care gets cheaper

3) If you allow health insurance to be tax deductible more people buy it, health care gets cheaper because the pool gets bigger.

4) If you let people choose which parts of insurance they want, and what degree of coverage, healthcare gets cheaper - most people dont need to pay for mental health, and its one of the most expensive parts of health insurance.

5) Make the costs more transparent - let people choose what tests they want and have the doctor explain why. If the doctor isnt afraid of being sued, he wont run multiple un-necessary tests.

6) Require people to enroll in some kind of a private health care program - give a tax break for it - the insurance companies like it, they get more base, and the people get coverage. No drivers license without health care, no cell phone without health care, no cable tv without health care....require health care to buy a house, get a loan for anything, etc....you cant make people get it but you can prevent them from getting luxuries till they have it!

People see health care as a right, but they think it should be free. They dont like to pay for health care because they seldom use it, but when all of a sudden they need it and they dont have it, its someone elses fault -

Dont get me wrong the system needs to be fixed, but a government run plan is definitely NOT the solution to our problem. Everything government touches, gets bigger, and more expensive fast! mandatory pay increases, inability to get fired from the job, countless unnecessary positions that get paid with zero accountability - Government is NOT the answer - more government people to pay is a problem! Let the private insurance do it, regulate it, and utilize the vast existing networks already there!

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6) Require people to enroll in some kind of a private health care program - give a tax break for it - the insurance companies like it, they get more base, and the people get coverage. No drivers license without health care, no cell phone without health care, no cable tv without health care....require health care to buy a house, get a loan for anything, etc....you cant make people get it but you can prevent them from getting luxuries till they have it!

So you want the government to force people to buy private insurance? What about those that can't (since you don't like the idea of others paying for the poor through taxes)? Are you going to not let poor people drive a car to a job?

Essentially, you (someone arguing against government intrusion) has just argued for some of the most extreme government intrusion into people's lives.

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So you want the government to force people to buy private insurance? What about those that can't (since you don't like the idea of others paying for the poor through taxes)? Are you going to not let poor people drive a car to a job?

Essentially, you (someone arguing against government intrusion) has just argued for some of the most extreme government intrusion into people's lives.

Public transportation or live close to your job. People are apparently so stupid they fail to prioritize properly. You dont have to have a car...Im not saying that forced insurance is what I want, but its much better than other people paying for everyone elses care, when even though they are technically "poor" they still have a car, cable, cell phones, etc...

Receiving health care is a privilege - not a right. Its beneficial for everyone if everyone has health care - you cant drive without casualty insurance already, whats the difference? Now you just cant buy luxury goods, and a car is a luxury, until you have health insurance. If your going to put all of us out there who have health care, at risk of catching your diseases, and illnesses, then you should pay your share. There is no government run auto insurance and its affordable.

Im not necessarily advocating it, but ideas need to be out there.

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I don't want either a Democrat or Republican, Blue or Red, Left or Right leaning politician in charge of my health care, or in charge of anything else. We should have all politicians stay home for a year. I think that we would find that the country went on just fine or perhaps better without them. After that one year we would probably just want to eliminate most of the federal government.

Oh and by the way. Just what is a "User Rank"? I see that I am a "Theater". What am I aspiring to next and how do I get there?

Edited by gto250us
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Many disagree.

I think those old guys in Philadelphia mumbled something about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, so some may argue that health care is a right since it leads to all three. But I think the real question is whether or not Affordable Health Care is or is not a right.

We end up with severely distorted economies when people are not held responsible for their costs. As long as someone else is paying the bill why should I care if i am obese, smoke 2 packs Lucky's a day and eat at McDonalds 4 times a week, is what they will think

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I think those old guys in Philadelphia mumbled something about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, so some may argue that health care is a right since it leads to all three. But I think the real question is whether or not Affordable Health Care is or is not a right.

We end up with severely distorted economies when people are not held responsible for their costs. As long as someone else is paying the bill why should I care if i am obese, smoke 2 packs Lucky's a day and eat at McDonalds 4 times a week, is what they will think

You have a point, and that should be part of the debate. The truth is, healthcare is completely out of whack in this country because of insurers, doctors, drug companies AND consumers abusing the system. Insurers limit maximum coverage and deny claims, among many other transgressions. Doctors order needless tests to run up a tab. An example is the doctors' clinic that referred 5 or 6 patients for MRIs per month until they bought their own scanner. Immediately, referrals to their own MRI jumped to 74 per month. Drug companies push unneeded pills on consumers and doctors. And consumers are perhaps the worst. They eat what they want, don't exercise, commit countless other unhealthy acts, and expect insurance to cover it all. Yet, the opposition to healthcare reform centers on encouraging consumers to continue engaging in these very same behaviors. Reform means CHANGES. If costs are out of control because every one of the participants is looting the system, then reform can ONLY come from limiting the ability to gouge. Yet, here are the big money interests misleading people into thinking it is the government causing the problem. NO! It is the doctors, drug cos., insurers and consumers causing the problem.

Some of Marksmu's suggestions actually could eliminate some of the waste. I would support limits on malpractice damages to help eliminate waste. I support ERs directing the simply sick to lower cost clinics, reserving the ER for the critically ill and injured. But, there also need to be minimum standards for coverage. There need to be limits on needless testing. Frankly, since taxing bad behavior works, we need to tax sodas and fast food, just as my pack a day habit and my rum is taxed heavily. All of these things should be on the table. But, what do we get instead? Quitters from Alaska...who supported end-of-life counseling in 2008...decrying 'death panels', which do not even exist in the proposals. In fact, the counseling that was to be paid for was actually a proposal by a Georgia Republican.

The town hall yellers are doing no one...least of all themselves...any favors. By yelling down the speakers and putting falsehoods forward as fact, they have eliminated any discussion of what the reform should include. This is exactly as the lobbyists designed it to work, but once again the American people get screwed. But the yellers are too ignorant to realize that they just cut off their nose.

Edited by RedScare
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These town hall meetings need:

* Security guards

* Clear rules prohibiting interrupting others

* Clear rules prohibiting "town hall yelling"

* A "town hall yeller" will be asked to stop by the guard

* if a ruckus is caused, the guard will have a piercing whistle that will hurt everyone's ears, forcing them to stop

* A person who repeats "yelling" activities will be photographed, identified, and escorted off of the premises. He/she will be banned from every town hall meeting across the country

The town hall yellers are doing no one...least of all themselves...any favors. By yelling down the speakers and putting falsehoods forward as fact, they have eliminated any discussion of what the reform should include. This is exactly as the lobbyists designed it to work, but once again the American people get screwed. But the yellers are too ignorant to realize that they just cut off their nose.

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These town hall meetings need:

* Security guards

* Clear rules prohibiting interrupting others

* Clear rules prohibiting "town hall yelling"

* A "town hall yeller" will be asked to stop by the guard

* if a ruckus is caused, the guard will have a piercing whistle that will hurt everyone's ears, forcing them to stop

* A person who repeats "yelling" activities will be photographed, identified, and escorted off of the premises. He/she will be banned from every town hall meeting across the country

*Minimum IQ requirements

*Check the dramatic BS at the door

That would solve the problem.

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Here's an interesting read...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/17/potter.health.insurance/index.html

The higher I rose in the company, the more I learned about the tactics insurers use to dump policyholders when they get sick, in order to increase profits and to reward their Wall Street investors. I could not in good conscience continue serving as an industry mouthpiece. And I did not want to be part of yet another industry effort to kill meaningful reform.

I explained during the press conference with Rep. Slaughter how the industry funnels millions of its policyholders' premiums to big public relations firms that provide talking points to conservative talk show hosts, business groups and politicians. I also described how the PR firms set up front groups, again using your premium dollars and mine, to scare people away from reform.

What I'm trying to do as I write and speak out against the insurance industry I was a part of for nearly two decades is to inform Americans that when they hear isolated stories of long waiting times to see doctors in Canada and allegations that care in other systems is rationed by "government bureaucrats," someone associated with the insurance industry wrote the original script.

Google "Wendell Potter" to read other interesting articles from him.

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These town hall meetings need:

* Security guards

* Clear rules prohibiting interrupting others

* Clear rules prohibiting "town hall yelling"

* A "town hall yeller" will be asked to stop by the guard

* if a ruckus is caused, the guard will have a piercing whistle that will hurt everyone's ears, forcing them to stop

* A person who repeats "yelling" activities will be photographed, identified, and escorted off of the premises. He/she will be banned from every town hall meeting across the country

Jawohl mein Kommandant

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These town hall meetings need:

* Security guards

* Clear rules prohibiting interrupting others

* Clear rules prohibiting "town hall yelling"

* A "town hall yeller" will be asked to stop by the guard

* if a ruckus is caused, the guard will have a piercing whistle that will hurt everyone's ears, forcing them to stop

* A person who repeats "yelling" activities will be photographed, identified, and escorted off of the premises. He/she will be banned from every town hall meeting across the country

...and no cell phones allowed?

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Were you just as concerned with the Patriot Act?

Sorry, didn't realize this thread was moved. Yes, I was probably more concerned with the Patriot Act. I think it's funny that I have a legitimate concern and all of the sudden it's thought that I'm some Bush-loving pushover. There are some of us out here who don't vote party lines and are actually interested in what the legislation means for our day-to-day lives.

I did have my question about the banking rights answered sufficiently, not by SJL but by one of Waxman's aides. It turns out the language at the section of the bill references language somewhere else (the annotations are missing) that it is in regards to the movement of funds between insurers and providers.

Edited by Hartmann
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