Are you a Citizen?

[ricco67]

I know this was discussed briefly on another topic, but this came up during a small drinking session with a few pals of mine.

2 "latinos"

4 "White guys"

3 "White women"

The topic of enforcing and verifying citizenship was generally agreed upon.

Then I open my big mouth asking if they could prove it if they got randomly picked up on the street.

One guy commented that it was easy to prove it, I asked him how.

He responded because he was white and they wouldn't check him (A white hick we grown fond of).

When I asked what if they check EVERYONE. How could he prove it?

He had to think about that for a bit.

While the "mescans" had papers proving their citizenship or visas "at home", no one could think of a way to prove it if we found ourselves in the pokey for some idiot reason.

So the question is, provided they check EVERYONE, how can you prove your "immigration" or "citizenship" on the street or in Jail?

Would you also pass the sniff test of it was an unbiased check into your status?

[Original Timmy Chan's]

When they ask me at the Border Patrol checkpoints, I just say, "Yes I'm an American citizen." It seems to work for them, why not the local police?

I have my birth certificate and US passport at home. If the jack-booted thugs aren't pulling me out of my home to arrest me, then I can still rely on my "Made in Pasadena" tattoo. I never leave home without it.

[Ross]

This is the piece all of those folks who want police to arrest illegals always ignore. There is no requirement under Texas law to carry an ID except when operating a motor vehicle on the streets. If you are arrested, you have to give your name, but otherwise, you don't have to answer. The police can ask if you are a citizen, you can decline to answer. The police can ask if you are illegal, and you can decline to answer. Until such time as we all carry a national ID, there is no way to reliably determine the immigration status of random people on the street.

[lockmat]

This is the piece all of those folks who want police to arrest illegals always ignore. There is no requirement under Texas law to carry an ID except when operating a motor vehicle on the streets. If you are arrested, you have to give your name, but otherwise, you don't have to answer. The police can ask if you are a citizen, you can decline to answer. The police can ask if you are illegal, and you can decline to answer. Until such time as we all carry a national ID, there is no way to reliably determine the immigration status of random people on the street.

Good question rico.

So how did they propose to arrest these illegals anyway?

[editor]

The topic of enforcing and verifying citizenship was generally agreed upon.

Sounds awful to me. Didn't we fight a 30-year cold war against just this sort of thing? I'm starting to understand why I keep hearing the phrase "Soviet America."

If I'm not crossing a border and not in the act of committing a crime, the police should leave me the hell alone.

[editor]

If you are arrested, you have to give your name, but otherwise, you don't have to answer.

I'm not sure that's true. I remember reading in an ACLU brochure once that you don't even have to give your name. Of course, then the police have the right to take you to headquarters and fingerprint you to make sure you don't have any outstanding warrants. But I believe you have the right to absolute silence.

Hopefully RedScare will chime in and let me know if I know what I'm talking about or not.

[ricco67]

Sounds awful to me. Didn't we fight a 30-year cold war against just this sort of thing? I'm starting to understand why I keep hearing the phrase "Soviet America."

If I'm not crossing a border and not in the act of committing a crime, the police should leave me the hell alone.

Well, I was refering that your status is checked when you run into the wrong side of the law (DUI, fighting, outstanding traffic warrent).

The thing is HOW would it be verified?

Will EVERYONE be checked? They'd have to be or else the ACLU and every minority community activist would be crawling all over this.

OTC: I have my birth certificate as well, but it isn't handy if you're sitting in a jail while the document is at home.

[RedScare]

Editor wins a cookie. Section 38.02 of the Texas Penal Code requires those who have been lawfully arrested or detained to give their name, address and date of birth if asked. If you are not under arrest or detention, you do not have to give it up.

Ricco, the way it normally works for suspected undocumented immigrants is that after a lawful arrest, the police and jailers attempt to identify the person. They have access to several databases in which to verify identity, such as NCIC, TCIC (criminal databases), DPS drivers license and identification card databases, and now, immigration databases. It is extraordinarily rare for an adult not to be listed in one of those databases. If they are not, it is a strong possibility that the person is an undocumented alien. The jail places an immigration hold on the person so that ICE can check to determine status.

As for proving citizenship, I have a photocopy of a document that purports to be a 'certificate of live birth' at a hospital in North Carolina. On the back of this photocopy is a typed statement by someone who claims to be a bureaucrat in North Carolina that this photocopy is from an original in their records. Written on this supposed original is the birthplace of each of my purported parents, said to be somewhere also in North Carolina. I doubt that the two people who claim to be my parents had to show proof of their birthplace to the person, apparently a hospital employee, who filled out this original document that has now been photocopied. So, am I a citizen of the US? I have no independent recollection of such, as I was an infant at birth. However, these two persons who claim to be my parents have stated that I was in fact delivered at this hospital in North Carolina, and the hospital does exist, as I have seen it. Further, these two persons from time to time tell humorous stories about my birth, either because they are true, or as additional cover of the fraud. I really don't know, but so long as I do not run for president...and claim to be half Black...I probably will never have to prove it any further than by producing this lame photocopy. The funny part is that my passport was issued based on this very photocopy, and funniest of all, the US Marshalls on duty at the entrance to the Federal Courthouse will NOT accept the State Department's very own documents as proof of identity. They demand a state ID.

[foxmulder]

I once flew to HRL from Hobby. I was in line to board my plane and people showed there credentials(passport/visa/birth certifaces) to a Border patrol agent. I didn't show anything and was let on. Hobby is the only serious airport that takes real ID's under scrutiny(your id gets looked at several times, microscope deal and a purple light.) BWI/LAX/IAD (name matches ticket ok..) I would refuse to prove to anyone(other than my employer) my status. I know way too many "white" people that are here illegally so the race card shouldn't be drawn... Does anyone REALLY REALIZE how easy it is to get in the US from Mexico?(a few years ago) I forgot my ID and showed them my little laminated card and got waved thru.

[Fringe]

I often worry I'll get mistaken for a Canadian. 

[20thStDad]

Let's just all get our barcode tattoos and be done with it. Pull me over, scan me, send me on my way. And if you have your Kroger plus card with you, you get 10% off the speeding ticket instantly and accumulate points toward cheap gas.

[editor]

I once flew to HRL from Hobby. I was in line to board my plane and people showed there credentials(passport/visa/birth certifaces) to a Border patrol agent. I didn't show anything and was let on. Hobby is the only serious airport that takes real ID's under scrutiny(your id gets looked at several times, microscope deal and a purple light.) BWI/LAX/IAD (name matches ticket ok..)

In my experience, ORD, YMQ, YYZ, CDG, and HKG are very tight making sure all documents are perfect, with YYZ and YMQ even having American ICE agents stationed there to handle things instead of the locals. WIT was tight, but I haven't been through since service was transfered to SPX, so I don't know if it's still a big deal, but it used to be.

I would refuse to prove to anyone(other than my employer) my status. I know way too many "white" people that are here illegally so the race card shouldn't be drawn...

The second biggest illegal immigrant group in Chicago is the Irish. When there are those national immigration marches, the Irish always have a HUGE contingent. I think I read in the paper that there's something like 50,000 illegal Irish in Chicagoland.

Does anyone REALLY REALIZE how easy it is to get in the US from Mexico?(a few years ago) I forgot my ID and showed them my little laminated card and got waved thru.

In 2002 my wife and I drove from Seattle to Vancouver. Getting into Canada was a breeze, but getting back they wouldn't let my wife through because she didn't have documents. I had my passport and Texas DL, but she didn't have anything. We were held up at the border for about a half an hour before they let her in.

My understanding is that if push comes to shove and you have no documents, you have the right to sign an affidavit swearing that you're a citizen and they have to let you in. All that may have changed in recent years, though. Still, I can't imagine that no one ever loses their passport in an airport overseas while coming back to America. There has to be a mechanism in place to handle these circumstances.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

Let's just all get our barcode tattoos and be done with it. Pull me over, scan me, send me on my way. And if you have your Kroger plus card with you, you get 10% off the speeding ticket instantly and accumulate points toward cheap gas.

Yeah but with my luck, they'd have trouble scanning me...like the barcode on a sack of carrots.

[20thStDad]

In 2002 my wife and I drove from Seattle to Vancouver. Getting into Canada was a breeze, but getting back they wouldn't let my wife through because she didn't have documents. I had my passport and Texas DL, but she didn't have anything. We were held up at the border for about a half an hour before they let her in.

My understanding is that if push comes to shove and you have no documents, you have the right to sign an affidavit swearing that you're a citizen and they have to let you in. All that may have changed in recent years, though. Still, I can't imagine that no one ever loses their passport in an airport overseas while coming back to America. There has to be a mechanism in place to handle these circumstances.

2 out of 3 times it's been a pain in the ass for me to get into Canada. This past week was the only easy time, maybe because I was ready for the drill. I am convinced it was due to the specific agents I dealt with at immigration, but either way they try everything they can to find a reason you shouldn't get in (going for business reasons). There is massive paranoia about foreigners doing jobs that Canadians could be doing. If it's not on the NAFTA list of profession codes, you're not getting in (for business reasons).

Getting back to the US (US immigration is at the Calgary airport so you clear before flying) has been a breeze with a US passport.

Does a US passport prove citizenship or not really?

[crunchtastic]

Getting back to the US (US immigration is at the Calgary airport so you clear before flying) has been a breeze with a US passport.

Does a US passport prove citizenship or not really?

I think no. Technically, all a US passport is good for is your own country allowing to come back home. And even then, since homeland security, you can be legally denied entry for basically no reason. Outbound, it's the other country's game. Ostensibly, we agree to play nice with each other. But I can think of a number of situations (and have friends who have been in such situations) where a US passport is a liability.

The only real means is national ID, but I think of a simple analogy: We all work places where IT systems limitations make certain things a pain in the ass, but our companies refuse, year after year, to budget for the massive upgrades. Other than the states' rights elephant in the room, we will never have a national ID because no one has the stomach to spend billions on updating and coordinating federal and state databases. And then bringing their hardware up to, at a minimum, the late 20th century. Veering OT, the third and final strike against a national ID are the very wealthy and influential people who own and run the businesses which depend on the cheapest possible undocumented labor.

[N Judah]

In 2002 my wife and I drove from Seattle to Vancouver. Getting into Canada was a breeze, but getting back they wouldn't let my wife through because she didn't have documents. I had my passport and Texas DL, but she didn't have anything.

How did she get into Canada without documents?

[foxmulder]

How did she get into Canada without documents?

I've gotten in and back with just an TX ID when i went to Montreal.

[houstonmacbro]

I know this was discussed briefly on another topic, but this came up during a small drinking session with a few pals of mine.

2 "latinos"

4 "White guys"

3 "White women"

The topic of enforcing and verifying citizenship was generally agreed upon.

Then I open my big mouth asking if they could prove it if they got randomly picked up on the street.

One guy commented that it was easy to prove it, I asked him how.

He responded because he was white and they wouldn't check him (A white hick we grown fond of).

When I asked what if they check EVERYONE. How could he prove it?

He had to think about that for a bit.

While the "mescans" had papers proving their citizenship or visas "at home", no one could think of a way to prove it if we found ourselves in the pokey for some idiot reason.

So the question is, provided they check EVERYONE, how can you prove your "immigration" or "citizenship" on the street or in Jail?

Would you also pass the sniff test of it was an unbiased check into your status?

I carry a birth certificate with me. The little wallet sized ones they issue.

[editor]

How did she get into Canada without documents?

They didn't ask her for any at the border. They asked for my DL, and when they saw it was Texas made a lame joke about, "So how many guns do you have in the trunk?" I guess the Canukistan border guard was too busy trying to be witty to think about asking her for ID.

[RedScare]

Pretty sure that you need a passport or passport equivalent to get into Canada these days. As of June 1, you must have your papers to go anywhere.

[ricco67]

My concern is the time it takes to be able to prove your citizenship. I'd hate to stay any longer than is necessary in the pokey.

[editor]

My concern is the time it takes to be able to prove your citizenship. I'd hate to stay any longer than is necessary in the pokey.

Regardless of whether they can prove your a citizen or not, you can only be held so long without being charged with a crime. I guess if you kept your mouth shut the crime would be disobeying the law that RedScare cited above. But as long as keeping your mouth shut doesn't count as probable cause for arrest, you're OK. Of course, the definition of "probably cause" seems pretty blurry these days.

[TJones]

I usually just give police the secret "white guy american citizen" sign, and I am on my way within a couple of minutes.

[ricco67]

Regardless of whether they can prove your a citizen or not, you can only be held so long without being charged with a crime. I guess if you kept your mouth shut the crime would be disobeying the law that RedScare cited above. But as long as keeping your mouth shut doesn't count as probable cause for arrest, you're OK. Of course, the definition of "probably cause" seems pretty blurry these days.

While I'd normally agree with you on that; didn't a fellow HAIFer suffer some consequences for merely not coughing (so to speak) something that would have simply allowed him to be on his way?

[editor]

I usually just give police the secret "white guy american citizen" sign, and I am on my way within a couple of minutes.

Remember there was a Saturday Night Live skit about this in the 70's. Eddie Murphy dressed up like a white guy and found out that white people get everything for free and everywhere is a party. It was a spoof of a TV reporter reenacting the 1961 book Black Like Me.

[20thStDad]

Remember there was a Saturday Night Live skit about this in the 70's. Eddie Murphy dressed up like a white guy and found out that white people get everything for free and everywhere is a party. It was a spoof of a TV reporter reenacting the 1961 book Black Like Me.

That was an awesome skit. I've seen it a few times when the best of Eddie Murphy SNL comes on. I don't know which is better, when the last black guy gets off the bus and a random party with waitresses and drinks starts, or the bank guy just giving him money after the black loan officer is sent away.

So the comments here seem to point to a birth certificate as THE document that can prove you are a citizen. I don't know, I think that is an easy one to fake. Then again, so is a SS card. The passport would be much more difficult, but I bet less than 15% of all citizens even have one. I guess that means we're back to barcode tattoos and a scanner to check the national big brother database.

[RedScare]

This is a big part of the problem of having police run around attempting to enforce immigration laws. A person who is not suspected of committing a crime cannot be summarily harrassed by the police. He does not even have to identify himself (even though many cops believe they must). If there is probable cause to believe he committed a crime, they can ask for identification. But, what is probable cause to believe one is an undocumented alien? Looking hispanic? Nope. 35 million US citizens are of hispanic decent. To ask every hispanic for papers is no more legal than stopping every fat white guy in a pickup at night for suspicion of DWI.

However, once at the jail, it is not only legal, but a legitimate inquiry to ask citizenship and for the jailers to verify it. This is what HPD and Harris County are doing, and I'm sure most of the suburban counties are doing it as well. As for you, Ricco, you had to present a birth certificate to get a DL. Once at the jail, as soon as you give them your name and DOB, they will run your DL and a picture of your ugly mug will pop up on the screen. That should stop any immigration inquiries immediately. The problems only arise when a person is not in any of the databases. If you give a fake name, it could trigger an inquiry, since that name may not show up anywhere. Then you have problems.

[ricco67]

This is a big part of the problem of having police run around attempting to enforce immigration laws. A person who is not suspected of committing a crime cannot be summarily harrassed by the police. He does not even have to identify himself (even though many cops believe they must). If there is probable cause to believe he committed a crime, they can ask for identification. But, what is probable cause to believe one is an undocumented alien? Looking hispanic? Nope. 35 million US citizens are of hispanic decent. To ask every hispanic for papers is no more legal than stopping every fat white guy in a pickup at night for suspicion of DWI.

However, once at the jail, it is not only legal, but a legitimate inquiry to ask citizenship and for the jailers to verify it. This is what HPD and Harris County are doing, and I'm sure most of the suburban counties are doing it as well. As for you, Ricco, you had to present a birth certificate to get a DL. Once at the jail, as soon as you give them your name and DOB, they will run your DL and a picture of your ugly mug will pop up on the screen. That should stop any immigration inquiries immediately. The problems only arise when a person is not in any of the databases. If you give a fake name, it could trigger an inquiry, since that name may not show up anywhere. Then you have problems.

As usual, you're dead on with all that. My main fear (for other people) are those poor schlubs that don't have their Social or DL license memorized. It's been more on one occasion where I went out and forgot my ID. In one case when I was pulled over, I simply repeated the DL number and all was cool (except I STILL got the ticket).

That and the ugly mug comment. I'd have to say it's rather Hideous...but that' s just me.

[N Judah]

They didn't ask her for any at the border. They asked for my DL, and when they saw it was Texas made a lame joke about, "So how many guns do you have in the trunk?" I guess the Canukistan border guard was too busy trying to be witty to think about asking her for ID.

Ugh, Canadians are garbage. I had my DL and birth certificate and I got detained for at least an hour before I was turned away.

[RedScare]

Ugh, Canadians are garbage. I had my DL and birth certificate and I got detained for at least an hour before I was turned away.

Ugh, Americans are also garbage. US citizens cannot re-enter the United States without a passport...the exact same rule as Canada.