President Obama

[AtticaFlinch]

Cost of war so far: $900 billion and rising

But he has faced strong criticism, especially from Republicans, who have jumped on the 900-billion-dollar price tag...

Er...

62.9 percent of physicians...favored a public option

Another 9.6 percent favored a completely government-owned health care coverage system.

between 52 and 69 percent of Americans favor a supplemental public option.

Double er...

Interesting article. I wonder, if cost is really the issue, perhaps we could get out of that war that's been draining our bottom line and put the money to better domestic uses. Just sayin'.

Don't even get me started on TARP...

[TJones]

So when is Barack slated to perform an apology to Kanye West in front of the MTV audience ?

No, I actually have to say I have gained a little more respect for our Commander in Chief after his latest "truthful" response. From now on, I will be listening for THAT tone in his voice when he is giving a speech, from now on ,it will be my determining factor, for me, as to how he TRULY feels about any one particular subject. You can literally hear and feel the conviction in his voice as he doesn't hold back his real feelings in his candid statement about the miserable Mr. Kanye. Bravo Mr. President, bravo.

[august948]

So when is Barack slated to perform an apology to Kanye West in front of the MTV audience ?

No, I actually have to say I have gained a little more respect for our Commander in Chief after his latest "truthful" response. From now on, I will be listening for THAT tone in his voice when he is giving a speech, from now on ,it will be my determining factor, for me, as to how he TRULY feels about any one particular subject. You can literally hear and feel the conviction in his voice as he doesn't hold back his real feelings in his candid statement about the miserable Mr. Kanye. Bravo Mr. President, bravo.

I have to agree with the reporter who said "Now that's presidential!" in response to the President's comment.

I'd also love to hear President Obama be candid more often. It reminds me of his "...,we can't solve global warming because I f___ing changed light bulbs in my house." comment.

[Gooch]

http://www.investors....aspx?id=506199

Two of every three practicing physicians oppose the medical overhaul plan under consideration in Washington, and hundreds of thousands would think about shutting down their practices or retiring early if it were adopted, a new IBD/TIPP Poll has found.

The poll contradicts the claims of not only the White House, but also doctors' own lobby — the powerful American Medical Association — both of which suggest the medical profession is behind the proposed overhaul.

Major findings included:

• Two-thirds, or 65%, of doctors say they oppose the proposed government expansion plan. This contradicts the administration's claims that doctors are part of an "unprecedented coalition" supporting a medical overhaul.

• Four of nine doctors, or 45%, said they "would consider leaving their practice or taking an early retirement" if Congress passes the plan the Democratic majority and White House have in mind.

• More than seven in 10 doctors, or 71% — the most lopsided response in the poll — answered "no" when asked if they believed "the government can cover 47 million more people and that it will cost less money and the quality of care will be better."

"It's like giving everyone free bus passes, but there are only two buses," Dr. Ted Epperly, president of the American Academy of Family Physicians, told the Associated Press.

[RedScare]

So, I should ignore a poll of 2,130 doctors by the New England Journal of Medicine, and instead place all of my faith in an article in the Investors Business Daily that is written like a hit piece, and does not give the number of doctors polled or any other information about their poll. I'm not saying the NEJM poll is infallible, but next to IBD's alleged findings, this is not a hard choice...but I'm sure IBD's reader's love it.

[Gooch]

So, I should ignore a poll of 2,130 doctors by the New England Journal of Medicine, and instead place all of my faith in an article in the Investors Business Daily that is written like a hit piece, and does not give the number of doctors polled or any other information about their poll. I'm not saying the NEJM poll is infallible, but next to IBD's alleged findings, this is not a hard choice...but I'm sure IBD's reader's love it.

You're putting a lot of words into my mouth. I didn't say any of that. It's just another data point. Take it for what it is. I'm not interested in arguing over it. "The time for bickering is over".

[RedScare]

You're putting a lot of words into my mouth. I didn't say any of that. It's just another data point. Take it for what it is. I'm not interested in arguing over it. "The time for bickering is over".

I am not suggesting that you are standing by the article. I note that you made no comment in the post. However, I was struck by the accusatory tone of an article "reporting" on the results of a poll. It read like Sean Hannity's teleprompter. I think my favorite part was 45% of doctors quitting if it passes. Yeah, sure.

The post is my opinion of the article and the poll, not you for posting it. In fact, I am glad you did. It is another example of how little we can trust anything we read about this issue.

[barracuda]

I am not suggesting that you are standing by the article. I note that you made no comment in the post. However, I was struck by the accusatory tone of an article "reporting" on the results of a poll. It read like Sean Hannity's teleprompter. I think my favorite part was 45% of doctors quitting if it passes. Yeah, sure.

The post is my opinion of the article and the poll, not you for posting it. In fact, I am glad you did. It is another example of how little we can trust anything we read about this issue.

It's always a bit shady when an organizations like IBD use their own polling data to write opinion pieces to trash their enemies. But then again, it is IBD we're talking about...

Anybody who believes in a concept, without knowing the details, is not very smart. Same goes for anybody who is against a concept, without knowing the details. Either way, the DEVIL is ALWAYS in the details. Politicians, both democrats & republicans, lie like hell & will do most anything to be re-elected - you're going to trust them to tell you what's going on??? I just hope that when (or if) they get a bill together they don't rush it through, like with other recent bills. There is really no rush (we have been living without healthcare since 1776), unless the bill is a BS bill of goods.

Most intelligent people agree that our current health care system needs an overhaul. Likewise, many intelligent people are fundamentally opposed to any expansion of government. I think both groups have legitimate concerns, but the rational conservative argument is overshadowed by the outrageous lies and attacks. Realistically, there isn't much debate to be had at the national level, since Republicans won't vote for the bill regardless of how good (or bad) it turns out.

As for the bill being rushed...the current window of opportunity is limited, as mid-term elections will thwart any attempt at health care legislation in 2010. I agree it's not ideal, but it's reality.

[RedScare]

Because that "poll" was the first I have heard of physicians being against healthcare reform, I did a little checking around. It appears that this "poll", which is really just a compilation of responses to a survey that was mailed out to 25,600 doctors (1,367 mailed it back), goes against the majority of physician association positions on healthcare reform. Here is a partial list of those groups 'for', 'middling', and 'against' the proposals...

http://cmhmd.blogspot.com/2009/09/organized-medicine-on-reform.html

[AtticaFlinch]

Because that "poll" was the first I have heard of physicians being against healthcare reform, I did a little checking around. It appears that this "poll", which is really just a compilation of responses to a survey that was mailed out to 25,600 doctors (1,367 mailed it back), goes against the majority of physician association positions on healthcare reform. Here is a partial list of those groups 'for', 'middling', and 'against' the proposals...

http://cmhmd.blogspo...-on-reform.html

Wow. How interesting. This list reflects the point that doctors are actually doctors because they want to help people and adhere to the Hippocratic oath with conviction. Despite what a handful of wingnuts on the right contend, they aren't all lassaiz-faire capitalists in it just for the big bucks. Amazing that someone intelligent enough to dedicate twenty-five to thirty years of their lives to education are smart enough to realize if money was the only motivator for pursuing a particular occupation, then a degree in finance and an MBA would be a much more direct route to a payoff.

I think some people just don't get that there's a substantial portion of the population whose motivations are greater than cash alone.

[Hartmann]

Wow. How interesting. This list reflects the point that doctors are actually doctors because they want to help people and adhere to the Hippocratic oath with conviction. Despite what a handful of wingnuts on the right contend, they aren't all lassaiz-faire capitalists in it just for the big bucks. Amazing that someone intelligent enough to dedicate twenty-five to thirty years of their lives to education are smart enough to realize if money was the only motivator for pursuing a particular occupation, then a degree in finance and an MBA would be a much more direct route to a payoff.

I think some people just don't get that there's a substantial portion of the population whose motivations are greater than cash alone.

I've seen the "doctors are in it for the money" argument from both sides, just to be fair.

I have one concern with a government option and the President sort of addressed it in his speech to Congress. The issue of the government plan not being given to illegal immigrants interests me because while no illegal immigrants will be covered, the ability to refuse treatment is pretty much impossible. ERs can't stop admitting patients because they're illegal, so one of the systemic problems will remain, a strain on emergency rooms by illegal immigrants getting treatment and then moving to California for work, leaving the hospital to foot the bill.

I'd like to see specifics on how the administration hopes to fix this issue, which is much more complicated than "they won't be covered under this plan".

[AtticaFlinch]

I've seen the "doctors are in it for the money" argument from both sides, just to be fair.

I have one concern with a government option and the President sort of addressed it in his speech to Congress. The issue of the government plan not being given to illegal immigrants interests me because while no illegal immigrants will be covered, the ability to refuse treatment is pretty much impossible. ERs can't stop admitting patients because they're illegal, so one of the systemic problems will remain, a strain on emergency rooms by illegal immigrants getting treatment and then moving to California for work, leaving the hospital to foot the bill.

I'd like to see specifics on how the administration hopes to fix this issue, which is much more complicated than "they won't be covered under this plan".

It's merely a rhetorical point to mollify Joe Redneck and his xenophobic concerns. No doctor with any sense of professional ethics would ever turn away a dying man because he didn't happen to be born here. If people stopped demanding such ridiculous things as not treating illegals, then Daddy Obama wouldn't be forced to lie to them. What's amusing, at least to me, is that many illegals pay taxes. It's hard to imagine, I suppose, but it's true. With the exception of those guys who hang out in the Home Depot parking lot and get paid cash for their labor, most of those other millions of illegals have phony-baloney social security numbers and have payroll deductions going to Uncle Sam just like the rest of us. It's true. I briefly worked for a company that hired three new Mexicans once, and they all had the same SSN. The "boss," whose name I'll never disclose, told two of them they had to go back to the flea market and get different numbers or else the IRS might do an audit. Within a couple hours, the two were back, each with different numbers scrawled on crumpled sheets of paper and new Texas IDs to match. I have no idea how they did it nor do I want to know, but to suggest illegals shouldn't get the public healthcare because they don't contribute is just plain false.

[sevfiv]

^Agreed on the xenophobia point. And many folks seem to think they can pick out "illegals" by looks alone.

[Gooch]

I'd like to see specifics on how the administration hopes to fix this issue, which is much more complicated than "they won't be covered under this plan".

http://washingtontim..._cube_position1

President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage.

[...]

"Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken," Mr. Obama said Wednesday evening in a speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. "That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else.

Mr. Obama added, "If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all."

I'm not sure his words lead to the conclusion in the slug paragraph and headline. But he is taking a pretty vague position in the pull quotes. It's also significant to recognize who the audience was. Pragmatically, I don't see how we can start turing away illegal aliens from health benefits at this point. We don't do it now. And it's moral bankruptcy to create an underclass that are 2nd class human beings. Yet another reason to enforce the border and existing immigration law.

[RedScare]

I've seen the "doctors are in it for the money" argument from both sides, just to be fair.

I have one concern with a government option and the President sort of addressed it in his speech to Congress. The issue of the government plan not being given to illegal immigrants interests me because while no illegal immigrants will be covered, the ability to refuse treatment is pretty much impossible. ERs can't stop admitting patients because they're illegal, so one of the systemic problems will remain, a strain on emergency rooms by illegal immigrants getting treatment and then moving to California for work, leaving the hospital to foot the bill.

I'd like to see specifics on how the administration hopes to fix this issue, which is much more complicated than "they won't be covered under this plan".

I don't think they plan on fixing it. I think that the illegals were locked out of the co-ops to appease the anti-immigrant loud noises, and the fact that they will continue to be served in emergency rooms will just continue to be covered by taxpayers and insurance premiums. The previous plan that forbade illegals from getting insurance subsidies was a workable plan financially, but the media pundits and politicians who make their living attacking illegals saw that as a chance to attack the Dems and healthcare reform. So, the Dems simply locked illegals out altogether, and the "fiscal conservatives" just made the price go up, proving that xenophobia trumps fiscal conservatism every time.

[Gooch]

....proving that xenophobia trumps fiscal conservatism every time.

Nice smear. Opposition to illegal immigration is not in most cases founded in xenophobia. It's the rule of law, national security, and Constitutional responsibility of the Federal government. Selectively enforcing law is a dangerous practice. If the border and existing immigration laws were enforced this wouldn't even be an issue.

[RedScare]

Nice smear. Opposition to illegal immigration is not in most cases founded in xenophobia. It's the rule of law, national security, and Constitutional responsibility of the Federal government. Selectively enforcing law is a dangerous practice. If the border and existing immigration laws were enforced this wouldn't even be an issue.

Truth hurts. The fact that some people may have a nuanced view of immigration based the principles you espouse does not hide the fact that the overwhelming majority of immigration zealots are xenophobic. But, this is a healthcare thread. This debate can be continued in any one of the dozen immigration threads.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go check on the workers of undetermined (and unchecked) national origin who are building my spectacular garage.

[AtticaFlinch]

Nice smear. Opposition to illegal immigration is not in most cases founded in xenophobia. It's the rule of law, national security, and Constitutional responsibility of the Federal government. Selectively enforcing law is a dangerous practice. If the border and existing immigration laws were enforced this wouldn't even be an issue.

But it's not opposition to illegal immigration we're discussing. It's oppostion to treating illegal immigrants when they're sick or hurt. Being opposed to lax borders and being opposed to medical ethics are two different things. One reflects a rigid adherence to manmade laws as if they're immutable and God inspired. The other reflects xenophobia, or just being a d**k. You can choose your own words to describe it, but I think xenophobic sounds more polite.

[Hartmann]

It's merely a rhetorical point to mollify Joe Redneck and his xenophobic concerns. No doctor with any sense of professional ethics would ever turn away a dying man because he didn't happen to be born here. If people stopped demanding such ridiculous things as not treating illegals, then Daddy Obama wouldn't be forced to lie to them. What's amusing, at least to me, is that many illegals pay taxes. It's hard to imagine, I suppose, but it's true. With the exception of those guys who hang out in the Home Depot parking lot and get paid cash for their labor, most of those other millions of illegals have phony-baloney social security numbers and have payroll deductions going to Uncle Sam just like the rest of us. It's true. I briefly worked for a company that hired three new Mexicans once, and they all had the same SSN. The "boss," whose name I'll never disclose, told two of them they had to go back to the flea market and get different numbers or else the IRS might do an audit. Within a couple hours, the two were back, each with different numbers scrawled on crumpled sheets of paper and new Texas IDs to match. I have no idea how they did it nor do I want to know, but to suggest illegals shouldn't get the public healthcare because they don't contribute is just plain false.

Wow, I didn't realize that a simple post would label me a xenophobe but welcome to the internet I guess. I'm the third generation of a family of Czechs that came here legally. I didn't speak English until I was five. My family worked its butt off to provide for us and I'm very thankful for it. I have a very real appreciation of the hardship that a lot of illegal aliens go through just to support their families. I also understand that the issue is much deeper than a bunch of people crossing the border just to have the "privilege" to move around the states to work on farms. The process is broken, plain and simple.

I'm not suggesting that we not treat illegals, I am suggesting that if someone is going to make the statement that "illegals won't be covered" then they should back it up with an explanation. Plus, like I said, you know, before you labeled me a xenophobe, there is really no way for a doctor to refuse treatment anyway, making Obama's statement moot at best.

As far as your anecdotal evidence that suggests "illegal aliens pay taxes", I have worked for people who have employed those who they know are illegal even after an SSN is given. The pay was usually minimum wage and unless they were working other jobs, were not paying income tax due to poverty level (even if the SSN they provided was real).

[Hartmann]

http://washingtontim..._cube_position1

I'm not sure his words lead to the conclusion in the slug paragraph and headline. But he is taking a pretty vague position in the pull quotes. It's also significant to recognize who the audience was. Pragmatically, I don't see how we can start turing away illegal aliens from health benefits at this point. We don't do it now. And it's moral bankruptcy to create an underclass that are 2nd class human beings. Yet another reason to enforce the border and existing immigration law.

I don't think they plan on fixing it. I think that the illegals were locked out of the co-ops to appease the anti-immigrant loud noises, and the fact that they will continue to be served in emergency rooms will just continue to be covered by taxpayers and insurance premiums. The previous plan that forbade illegals from getting insurance subsidies was a workable plan financially, but the media pundits and politicians who make their living attacking illegals saw that as a chance to attack the Dems and healthcare reform. So, the Dems simply locked illegals out altogether, and the "fiscal conservatives" just made the price go up, proving that xenophobia trumps fiscal conservatism every time.

Thank you both for the replies without the name calling.

RedScare, do you have a link to the part about insurance subsidies (or lack thereof) for illegal immigrants in the previous plan? To me, not giving the subsidies makes sense, cutting people completely out of the loop does not.

[AtticaFlinch]

Wow, I didn't realize that a simple post would label me a xenophobe but welcome to the internet I guess. I'm the third generation of a family of Czechs that came here legally. I didn't speak English until I was five. My family worked its butt off to provide for us and I'm very thankful for it. I have a very real appreciation of the hardship that a lot of illegal aliens go through just to support their families. I also understand that the issue is much deeper than a bunch of people crossing the border just to have the "privilege" to move around the states to work on farms. The process is broken, plain and simple.

I'm not suggesting that we not treat illegals, I am suggesting that if someone is going to make the statement that "illegals won't be covered" then they should back it up with an explanation. Plus, like I said, you know, before you labeled me a xenophobe, there is really no way for a doctor to refuse treatment anyway, making Obama's statement moot at best.

As far as your anecdotal evidence that suggests "illegal aliens pay taxes", I have worked for people who have employed those who they know are illegal even after an SSN is given. The pay was usually minimum wage and unless they were working other jobs, were not paying income tax due to poverty level (even if the SSN they provided was real).

Don't get your knickers in a twist. I wasn't specifically calling you a xenophobe. You asked what Obama's plan was if he wasn't going to treat illegals, and my response fairly overtly implied there is no plan, and he was merely saying it to placate his loudest detractors, who happen to generally be bigots and xenophobes. It's a rhetorical technique. He took away their loudest shouting point, and now they'll be forced to devise another, even more arbitrary issue to be outraged about. I can see clearly now his shrewd techniques are more effective than I'd ever anticipated they would be. He's taking racists further and further away from any tightly veiled protests and publicly reducing them to what they actually are. Since there is no legitimate beef with his policy, he's exposing the vile hatred that infects the core of so many Americans and underlies his opposition. Soon, people will be forced to react to their ugly reflections in the mirror. It's brilliant, really. Oh, and everybody pays taxes. Even if you're too poor to afford to have it deducted from your income, then you still contribute through goods purchased. Also, taxes are taken out of everyone's pay, but the poorest receive it back later. That's essentially a short-term interest free loan to the government. The government made money on that money while they held on to it, so the fact they got to keep it in their coffers, even for a short time, still benefitted Uncle Sam.

[RedScare]

Wow, I didn't realize that a simple post would label me a xenophobe but welcome to the internet I guess. I'm the third generation of a family of Czechs that came here legally. I didn't speak English until I was five. My family worked its butt off to provide for us and I'm very thankful for it. I have a very real appreciation of the hardship that a lot of illegal aliens go through just to support their families. I also understand that the issue is much deeper than a bunch of people crossing the border just to have the "privilege" to move around the states to work on farms. The process is broken, plain and simple.

I'm not suggesting that we not treat illegals, I am suggesting that if someone is going to make the statement that "illegals won't be covered" then they should back it up with an explanation. Plus, like I said, you know, before you labeled me a xenophobe, there is really no way for a doctor to refuse treatment anyway, making Obama's statement moot at best.

As far as your anecdotal evidence that suggests "illegal aliens pay taxes", I have worked for people who have employed those who they know are illegal even after an SSN is given. The pay was usually minimum wage and unless they were working other jobs, were not paying income tax due to poverty level (even if the SSN they provided was real).

That is pretty much the point. That certain segment of the population that made a stink of this does not want an explanation. They also do not want the broken system "fixed". They want only one solution, the expulsion of the 12 million to 20 million undocumented aliens, regardless of cost or logistics. This leads to even worse public policy, such as forcing injured and sick illegals into emergency rooms, and unlicensed and uninsured drivers on the roads.

I happen to be the grandson of immigrants myself. Your statement that you are the offspring of "legal" immigrants, while true, is a bit misleading. The fact is, your ancestors and mine got here the same way the "illegals" did. They simply walked in, as there were no complex rules and regs back then. This is all too often ignored.

By the way, those with fake SSNs do not file tax returns. All taxes withheld are left with the Treasury. Even minimum wage workers who get a paycheck are "paying taxes". Plus, gasoline is taxed at the pump, as are toll road fees and sales taxes. Property taxes are paid indirectly through rent. On a percentage basis, illegals pay more in taxes than most citizens. They are blocked from receiving Medicare/Medicaid, food stamps, EIC and other support for the poor. Only education for their children, paid for with property taxes paid by their landlord, and emergency room care, which is technically not free, but often not repaid, is provided. Had the anti-immigration zealots not complained, we might have gotten some of this expense covered.

[RedScare]

Thank you both for the replies without the name calling.

RedScare, do you have a link to the part about insurance subsidies (or lack thereof) for illegal immigrants in the previous plan? To me, not giving the subsidies makes sense, cutting people completely out of the loop does not.

Since much of this debate has been statements about what will happen without the actual bill to back it up, I had not seen it. I only know that when the South Carolina Rep screamed 'You Lie', some articles pointed out that it was not a lie, since illegals were not entitled to subsidy. The argument then turned on whether proof of citizenship was required, and further, that the illegals could join the co-ops even without subsidy. That got us to where we are today.

I'll look for a more knowledgeable source.

[Hartmann]

Don't get your knickers in a twist. I wasn't specifically calling you a xenophobe. You asked what Obama's plan was if he wasn't going to treat illegals, and my response fairly overtly implied there is no plan, and he was merely saying it to placate his loudest detractors, who happen to generally be bigots and xenophobes. It's a rhetorical technique. He took away their loudest shouting point, and now they'll be forced to devise another, even more arbitrary issue to be outraged about. I can see clearly now his shrewd techniques are more effective than I'd ever anticipated they would be. He's taking racists further and further away from any tightly veiled protests and publicly reducing them to what they actually are. Since there is no legitimate beef with his policy, he's exposing the vile hatred that infects the core of so many Americans and underlies his opposition. Soon, people will be forced to react to their ugly reflections in the mirror. It's brilliant, really. Oh, and everybody pays taxes. Even if you're too poor to afford to have it deducted from your income, then you still contribute through goods purchased. Also, taxes are taken out of everyone's pay, but the poorest receive it back later. That's essentially a short-term interest free loan to the government. The government made money on that money while they held on to it, so the fact they got to keep it in their coffers, even for a short time, still benefitted Uncle Sam.

I understand that taxes are taken out as a short term loan but to receive a full refund is different than receiving a partial one.

As far as goods and services taxes, does the Texas sales tax go to fund city owned hospitals? I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. I assumed that property taxes partially did and that some sales revenue had to go to it as well.

[AtticaFlinch]

Since much of this debate has been statements about what will happen without the actual bill to back it up, I had not seen it. I only know that when the South Carolina Rep screamed 'You Lie', some articles pointed out that it was not a lie, since illegals were not entitled to subsidy. The argument then turned on whether proof of citizenship was required, and further, that the illegals could join the co-ops even without subsidy. That got us to where we are today.

I'll look for a more knowledgeable source.

Factcheck.org addresses this on the front page of the site.

[sevfiv]

The Harris County Hospital District has a line on the property tax bill. Not sure about sales tax.

[Hartmann]

That is pretty much the point. That certain segment of the population that made a stink of this does not want an explanation. They also do not want the broken system "fixed". They want only one solution, the expulsion of the 12 million to 20 million undocumented aliens, regardless of cost or logistics. This leads to even worse public policy, such as forcing injured and sick illegals into emergency rooms, and unlicensed and uninsured drivers on the roads.

I happen to be the grandson of immigrants myself. Your statement that you are the offspring of "legal" immigrants, while true, is a bit misleading. The fact is, your ancestors and mine got here the same way the "illegals" did. They simply walked in, as there were no complex rules and regs back then. This is all too often ignored.

My family went through a formal process on Galveston Island. They were documented, their last names chopped up, and given a few dollars to start their new life.

By the way, those with fake SSNs do not file tax returns. All taxes withheld are left with the Treasury. Even minimum wage workers who get a paycheck are "paying taxes". Plus, gasoline is taxed at the pump, as are toll road fees and sales taxes. Property taxes are paid indirectly through rent. On a percentage basis, illegals pay more in taxes than most citizens. They are blocked from receiving Medicare/Medicaid, food stamps, EIC and other support for the poor. Only education for their children, paid for with property taxes paid by their landlord, and emergency room care, which is technically not free, but often not repaid, is provided. Had the anti-immigration zealots not complained, we might have gotten some of this expense covered.

The example I stated with the fake SSNs did file tax returns but I don't know what happened after that. Maybe they were valid numbers that were still in use? Some were paid in cash though and we didn't report the payment [shame on us].

Don't forget that children's breakfast and lunches are paid for at school as well.

[AtticaFlinch]

I understand that taxes are taken out as a short term loan but to receive a full refund is different than receiving a partial one.

As far as goods and services taxes, does the Texas sales tax go to fund city owned hospitals? I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. I assumed that property taxes partially did and that some sales revenue had to go to it as well.

As RedScare noted, illegals don't generally fill out a 1040EZ every year.

Public hospitals definitely benefit from state funding. I can't locate anything about private hospitals and state funding, but I'll keep looking.

[RedScare]

I understand that taxes are taken out as a short term loan but to receive a full refund is different than receiving a partial one.

As far as goods and services taxes, does the Texas sales tax go to fund city owned hospitals? I did a quick search but couldn't find anything. I assumed that property taxes partially did and that some sales revenue had to go to it as well.

Well, there pretty much aren't any city owned hospitals. I suspect that you mean county owned hospitals, and yes, property taxes...or more specifically, the County Hospital District...covers their revenue shortfalls.

Here is a link to Politifact as well.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/

[Hartmann]

Well, there pretty much aren't any city owned hospitals. I suspect that you mean county owned hospitals, and yes, property taxes...or more specifically, the County Hospital District...covers their revenue shortfalls.

Here is a link to Politifact as well.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/

Thanks for the link! I should have just said "public hospitals".