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Stop Gosling Oaks Tax-Subsidized Low-Income Apartments On FM 2920 & Gosling Rd.


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While I wouldn't call a subdivision where the overwhelming majority of the homes sell for under $300,000 affluent, I recognize that the homeowners fears that, being the suburbs, only other narrow minded individuals would purchase out there, and a project such as this may scare those prospective buyers away. However, my recognition of the thought process used by these homeowners does not require me then to agree with it. The fact is, these apartment complexes are indistinguishable from any other upper middle class complex. They're even likely to put that hideous hill country stone on them to make them look like homes you'd find in Windrose. The only way prospective homebuyers will even know it is there is because the current Windrose homeowners made such a big public televised stink about it.

Well said.

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Great! Now, you can spend your time and money planting some trees on that barren golf course!

ROTF!!

thank you Red.

PS-I've recently heard there is a large section of land that has become available for section 8 housing.

Edited by KatieDidIt
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While I wouldn't call a subdivision where the overwhelming majority of the homes sell for under $300,000 affluent, I recognize that the homeowners fears that, being the suburbs, only other narrow minded individuals would purchase out there, and a project such as this may scare those prospective buyers away. However, my recognition of the thought process used by these homeowners does not require me then to agree with it.

There is no absolute metric to determine affluence. It is subjective. Clearly the folks participating on this thread consider themselves affluent relative to those that they seek to segregate themselves from. And so they are, in that context.

The bottom line is that anybody that owns a home is exposed to the adverse impact of these apartments on market demand. To be clear, I am not arguing that these folks have anything to be concerned about in terms of lifestyle; those concerns are bunk. But the market being what it is, these Tax Credit apartments are bad news (for them).

They're still NIMBYs, it's still going to be a lost cause on their part, and they still annoy the crap out of me. ...but the folks who have dogpiled them on HAIF are also largely approaching this the wrong way, marginalizing the issue by completely ignoring the very different realities associated with suburban housing markets.

The fact is, these apartment complexes are indistinguishable from any other upper middle class complex. They're even likely to put that hideous hill country stone on them to make them look like homes you'd find in Windrose. The only way prospective homebuyers will even know it is there is because the current Windrose homeowners made such a big public televised stink about it.

Then you aren't looking closely enough. I can tell the difference between Tax Credit and market-rate Class A apartments just driving by, typically just by glancing at the materials used for siding and the proportions in which they were used. And if you've ever been inside them, the differences are very apparent. All the interior finishes are cheap and the common areas are very basic.

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AWESOME NEWS!!! NEVER MIND...THEY PULLED THE PERMIT AND THEY ARE NOT BUILDING HERE!!

I GUESS I DO HAVE A VOICE AND CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!

Is this something that you did, is it a consequence of capital market illiquidity, or is it that crazy scoring system that TDHCA administers that I was so critical of in an earlier post?

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AWESOME NEWS!!! NEVER MIND...THEY PULLED THE PERMIT AND THEY ARE NOT BUILDING HERE!!

I GUESS I DO HAVE A VOICE AND CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!

Just in time for wine-thirty on the cul-de-sac, and manic gossip!

Edited by KatieDidIt
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There is no absolute metric to determine affluence. It is subjective. Clearly the folks participating on this thread consider themselves affluent relative to those that they seek to segregate themselves from. And so they are, in that context.

The bottom line is that anybody that owns a home is exposed to the adverse impact of these apartments on market demand. To be clear, I am not arguing that these folks have anything to be concerned about in terms of lifestyle; those concerns are bunk. But the market being what it is, these Tax Credit apartments are bad news (for them).

They're still NIMBYs, it's still going to be a lost cause on their part, and they still annoy the crap out of me. ...but the folks who have dogpiled them on HAIF are also largely approaching this the wrong way, marginalizing the issue by completely ignoring the very different realities associated with suburban housing markets.

Then you aren't looking closely enough. I can tell the difference between Tax Credit and market-rate Class A apartments just driving by, typically just by glancing at the materials used for siding and the proportions in which they were used. And if you've ever been inside them, the differences are very apparent. All the interior finishes are cheap and the common areas are very basic.

Niche, I understand what you are saying. There is no way to sell the home to the market that swamps the area. Fellow flighters would never buy a house near such a complex. They would either search farther out or around. The burbs are an endless circle around this city, and it's not hard to find one without an apartment complex near it. However, how long will those open fields nextdoor remain undeveloped? The land in the great out there is far cheaper than near loop areas, the building codes more lax to my knowledge, therefore more enticing to developers.

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It's just like a flu..THE SWINE FLU..panic and perception closes schools for weeks. Why?? Because the best predictor of future events is the past. People died in Mexico...causes pandemic scares in the USA. Low income homes tend to bring more crime/gangs/drugs/graffiti. Any of the areas mentioned that have these projects in their backyards cannot say that their community is free of these things. Why is it so bad to not want that in our area as well?? Is it the "misery loves company" theory. "I have it you can too!!"

I was introduced to drugs and alcohol by friends in Briargrove, many of whom are now CEOs and executives.

You illustrate my point exactly. Your perception is not based in reality. The swine flu has killed many many less than the regular flu. In fact, I think the number is currently 100 worldwide, as compared to 30,000 in the US alone annually. I know you feel passionately about what you say, but you don't even see where your own argument is working against you. I know you are sincere in wanting what is best for your family, but in so doing you are trying to deny that to other hard working families.

I pray for you to get everything you need and want in life as I pray for those to whom you protest so heartily.

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Say that you're a commercial property manager and women keep on spraying the toilet seat. Which is the more rational response: 1) accommodate their irrational fears by providing paper toilet seat covers, thereby reducing the incidences of nasty toilet seats which increases tenant satisfaction and reduces janitorial overhead, or 2) lecture them on an internet forum?

If they use the toilet seat covers they won't leave their pee behind for me to sit on. So go ahead give them seat covers.

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Niche, I understand what you are saying. There is no way to sell the home to the market that swamps the area. Fellow flighters would never buy a house near such a complex. They would either search farther out or around. The burbs are an endless circle around this city, and it's not hard to find one without an apartment complex near it. However, how long will those open fields nextdoor remain undeveloped?

Just as it is true that a homeowner should never show their home to prospective buyers if you're in the middle of remodeling for the reason that consumers have no imagination, it is also important to note that a neighborhood with the strong potential for a blight is in far better shape than the neighborhood that already has a blight. Buyers typically undervalue the risk of what could be relative to the reality of what is. So for existing property owners, this is a legitimate issue...even though you're correct about the grand scheme of suburbs in Houston being a vicious circle.

The land in the great out there is far cheaper than near loop areas, the building codes more lax to my knowledge, therefore more enticing to developers.

A developer is not in a position to reliably estimate hard cost savings from cutting corners when initially evaluating a site. They are neither a GC, nor an architect. What they do consider is that a site in an unincorporated area will have only a fraction of the costs related to permitting fees and impact fees.

If I'm not mistaken, though, a municipality has to agree to at least make a limited purpose annexation of the site for a Tax Credit project before it meets TDHCA requirements. It's possible that I'm confusing that with a different kind of subsidy program, though. Affordable housing was always only on the periphery of my professional experiences.

Edited by TheNiche
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Exactly. It won't cure their ignorance, but it'll fix your problem.

So build gates around them and don't let them out. Problem solved! I can sleep better knowing Momma ain't out on the streets. Why does this dialogue with Momma bring out the aint's in me. Oh, so that maybe she will hear me.

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ROTF!!

thank you Red.

PS-I've recently heard there is a large section of land that has become available for section 8 housing.

Yes and good news since "My neighborhood is free of things. We have plenty of low income all around us in every direction, and the houses are worth well more than 300,000." it will be built in your neighborhood!!! There should be no opposition and should pass rather quickly. What's one more low income project right??

And I think the "wine thirty" started here a few hours ago..."I have it my neighborhood. You should too!"

I'm out on the streets and no you cannot change my perception. I would rather have a toilet seat cover any day rather than sitting on a well used toilet seat at a gas station!

Because you can take the girl out of the city, but you can't take the city out of the girl. We want out of the city and that mentality!

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Yes and good news since "My neighborhood is free of things. We have plenty of low income all around us in every direction, and the houses are worth well more than 300,000." it will be built in your neighborhood!!! There should be no opposition and should pass rather quickly. What's one more low income project right??

And I think the "wine thirty" started here a few hours ago..."I have it my neighborhood. You should too!"

I'm out on the streets and no you cannot change my perception. I would rather have a toilet seat cover any day rather than sitting on a well used toilet seat at a gas station!

Because you can take the girl out of the city, but you can't take the city out of the girl. We want out of the city and that mentality!

Can't be built. There isn't a scratch of empty land around here to build on. Any land that becomes free from apartment teardowns, they call a brownstone, and charge a million dollars for. We've had low income in area for over 40 years. The horror. It's a shame about that one break in 20 years ago.

Momma, do you white women up there still call each other "girlfriend?"

Edited by KatieDidIt
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I was introduced to drugs and alcohol by friends in Briargrove, many of whom are now CEOs and executives.

You illustrate my point exactly. Your perception is not based in reality. The swine flu has killed many many less than the regular flu. In fact, I think the number is currently 100 worldwide, as compared to 30,000 in the US alone annually. I know you feel passionately about what you say, but you don't even see where your own argument is working against you. I know you are sincere in wanting what is best for your family, but in so doing you are trying to deny that to other hard working families.

I pray for you to get everything you need and want in life as I pray for those to whom you protest so heartily.

I am not denying anything to anyone. That is the problem with our society. Everyone is entitled to something. I worked hard to get what I have and will do my best to perserve it. You should do the same. No one gave me anything in this world. I worked at low paying jobs and saved to have something for the future and my children's future. We, as a society, have our hand out for the government to provide everything to us because we deserve it. Thanks for your prayers. I will pray for you also.

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I know it's a little after the fact, since the Gosling Oaks is apparently no longer a threat, but I'll add my two cents on the "tax credit" apartments, since there are 4 that I can think of within 1/2 mile of my house.

In our experience, the "tax credit" apartments have not been a problem, crime-wise.

When the most recent tax credit apartment was built, about 2 blocks from our house, my wife and I went to check it out. We were curious what the rents were, and what kind of clientele would reside there. We were pleasantly surprised...The Niche is correct about the background checks and income level requirements. These are not exactly "low income" apartments...if I recall, the minimum family income required was somewhere around $30k, and the maximum income allowed was somewhere around $50k. (I could be off on those #'s, this was several years ago.) That's much higher than poverty level.

In addition to the income requirements, the rents were not exactly "budget" rates. In fact, they were higher per square foot than what my wife and I were paying just a few years earlier for a Galleria-area apartment. That said, the apartments were spacious, well-made, and still appear to be well-kept, years later.

I just wanted to corroborate what The Niche was saying about the type of person residing in these apartments. In my particular situation, which is assuredly different from most here, we actually welcomed the "tax credit" apartments for INCREASING the average income and education level in our neighborhood. That's not a knock against our current neighbors in single-family homes...we're in a great place, full of good, hard-working but low-wage families and many long-retired people who've owned these homes since the 1940's.

Momma, the way I see it, if anyone has their hand out in this situation, it's the developers, not the apartment-dwellers.

Anyhow, I'm not saying that the "tax credit" apartments are a panacea that will improve your neighborhood...but at the same time I don't foresee them as some doomsday development that will destroy the social and economic fabric of your neighborhood...at least not any worse than any other apartment development.

Edited by Original Timmy Chan's
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Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing. This is not a "vacant" area.

OK, you're upset. But this posting was put into a general "Houston real estate" thread. So we're all responding. If you only wanted responses from people that live within 2 miles of you then it could have been put into some other specific discussion forum. The original post sounded like a desperate plea for help, but I'm still not certain I understand what the real problems are. All I've seen are lots of postulations but no real facts or numbers.

I have a feeling any exposure of the objection to the project on the evening news is only going to make your area sound very prejudice and elitist.

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It is best to figure out logical reasons for why to oppose a project instead of relying on blind emotion. Also, Momma, from my understanding the problem tends to be when low income complexes are clustered together; if they are more spread out and integrated in the surrounding communities they are alright.

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It is best to figure out logical reasons for why to oppose a project instead of relying on blind emotion.

We've already established why they would be a problem (for some people, not necessarily others).

Also, Momma, from my understanding the problem tends to be when low income complexes are clustered together; if they are more spread out and integrated in the surrounding communities they are alright.

You can't end up with several in a cluster without first having one by itself.

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1. In terms of real estate sales, yes. I was speaking about that one poster's particular concerns rather than a wider neighborhood sales concern.

2. So they could say "we'll take one, but we'll block any additional developments"

We've already established why they would be a problem (for some people, not necessarily others).

You can't end up with several in a cluster without first having one by itself.

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1. In terms of real estate sales, yes. I was speaking about that one poster's particular concerns rather than a wider neighborhood sales concern.

2. So they could say "we'll take one, but we'll block any additional developments"

1. The poster is a member of the neighborhood. The wider concerns are her concerns.

2. And the developer that has spent so much money developing plans worthy of submission to the TDHCA can turn around and sue the agency that blocks them on the basis that the agency is unequally and unfairly administering the program. When it comes right down to it, after all, the TDHCA has no mechanism to play favorites in that manner...or for that matter, any responsibility to members of a special public other than those who would benefit from the affordable housing. As a general rule, cutting one-off back room deals does not make for an effective, consistent, or honest bureaucratic procedure.

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Contact Senator Dan Patrick's office and Robbye Meyer (Director of Multifamily Finance Production Division) to oppose this housing plan. The crime and low property values this will bring is not welcome. Make it clear to the developers (Les and Richard Kilday) that they are not welcome.

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Contact Senator Dan Patrick's office and Robbye Meyer (Director of Multifamily Finance Production Division) to oppose this housing plan. The crime and low property values this will bring is not welcome. Make it clear to the developers (Les and Richard Kilday) that they are not welcome.

Where would they be welcome and still abide by the spirit of the Tax Credit program?

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QUOTE (bartjackson @ Sunday, May 31st, 2009 @ 5:31pm) post_snapback.gifThe developers can build this low income complex next to their house. NOT MINE!

So, it'd be OK if they bought a home in your subdivision before developing the complex?

...or was that just some vapid rhetoric on your part?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some vapid rhetoric on my part.

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We appreciate all the suggestions and feedback... even the attempted liberal guilt-trip about "NIMBY" ;)

BTW, reporters from ABC 13 and FOX 26 have already been out today to interview residents, and may be present to cover our initial community meeting at 8 pm at the Windrose meeting house tonight.

Stay tuned.

I heard they withdrew the application.

Maybe you need to give us some tips.

How did you get the media out there?

We've been fighting the Goldshire Townhomes application since around the same time. This proposed development is not across from a subdivision, but in the middle of one. In Sugar Land. We even found out the land seller for the site and his real estate agent sent a letter of support from a fraudulent HOA to get points added to the Goldshire application. We were able to get TDHCA to remove those points, but the application still stands. www.united77498.org

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You purchased a home in a part of unincorporated Harris County which has numerous tracts of undeveloped land and no zoning. You knew that. Within your neighborhood you have deed restrictions, however those deed restrictions have no jurisdiction beyond that neighborhood. You knew that. The regulatory environment offers you very little recourse to resolve grievances of this sort. You knew that.

That pretty much sums it up - unless the protesters can overturn on a technicality.

Yeah, we don't tolerate any Wal-Marts inside the Loop. :D

Well one, the Meyerland one...but its barely inside.

Actually, that store is right outside the loop. And how close to these subdivisions is the Wal-Mart that was mentioned earlier? I did a store search for that area and there were about 10 stores in a 10-mile radius! :o

Like EMME mentioned, these folks are going to have to resort to euthanasia...or perhaps building moats.

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That pretty much sums it up - unless the protesters can overturn on a technicality.

Actually, that store is right outside the loop. And how close to these subdivisions is the Wal-Mart that was mentioned earlier? I did a store search for that area and there were about 10 stores in a 10-mile radius! :o

Like EMME mentioned, these folks are going to have to resort to euthanasia...or perhaps building moats.

Moats will still have the undesirables within view of the precious few. Euthanasia is the only answer. What they don't take into account is that to some select few somewhere in the world, they are undesirable and will have to be euthanized as well. Sad state of affairs when we can't learn to work together to live together. And we wonder why we have wars? Well I guess Momma doesn't wonder. :(

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That's a great place to locate an apartment complex in this area! Finally the retention ponds will have some landscaping attention and recreation, it looks like "Beyond Thunderdome" behind that Lowes.

I should also disclaim that I live in the immediate area and think this project, whether of developmental merit or not, is correctly sited relative to it's capacity and scope.

Edited by infinite_jim
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  • The title was changed to Stop Gosling Oaks Tax-Subsidized Low-Income Apartments On FM 2920 & Gosling Rd.

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