Stop Gosling Oaks Affordable Housing Apartments On FM 2920 & Gosling Rd.

[StopGoslingOaks]

Hello all; I've been aware of HAIF for years, but only occasionally dropped by... now, of course, that neglect of this vital forum has come back to bite me, as my neighbors and I have been caught off guard by a proposed TDHCA tax-subsidized low-income apartment complex set for possible approval, to be constructed directly across from my subdivision, Windrose, in NW Harris county, off FM 2920/Gosling & Kuykendahl/Pinelakes Blvd.

For more information, please check out www.stopgoslingoaks.blogspot.com

We created a GoogleMap here.

Word is rapidly spreading across Windrose and surrounding subdivisions... but we are definitely behind the eight-ball on this one, and need to respond quickly and effectively to kill this project.

We are therefore throwing ourselves on the mercy of fellow HAIF participants... we know these types of projects have been studied, discussed, and opposed for years now, and we know that many of you have experience and contacts on how best to fight.

Please, please share your knowledge.

We are, among anything else you consider valuable, looking for:

• Strategies; what you know doesn't work and we shouldn't bother with; what might work and we should devote some effort to; what would be certain to work and we absolutely must do.
  
• Tips: Links to resources, webpages, research practices to help us gather the types of information we need quickly.
  
• Attorneys/advisers: Ideally pro-bono, but also possibly not; we are serious about killing this project, and if you are (or know) an expert who can take the fight to TDHCA and beat this developer on the bureaucracy's own terms, we're open to passing the plate and seeing if we can afford you.
  

Remember that desperate, panicked feeling you felt when you first learned a tax-subsidized low-income apartment complex was scheduled for YOUR neighborhood?

That's the suffering we are mired in right now.

Have mercy. Help if you can.

Thanks.

[TheNiche]

Aside from that you're concerned about its external impacts, is there anything wrong with the plan, itself? Is there any way that it does not comply with the TDHCA requirements or with the spirit of the Tax Credit program?

I'd say that the best thing you've got going for you is that financing affordable housing projects is especially difficult right now. Whether it scores well or not, you've probably got plenty of time before it could be built.

[VicMan]

By matching the Google Map of the proposed development (inside Rural Area 15B, an area bounded by FM2920, Kuykendahl, and Rhodes) with the current (as of writing) high school and middle attendance boundaries and a new elementary attendance boundary, this is where the residents would be zoned to:

* Klein Oak High School: http://www.kleinisd.net/docs/1-mapkohs.pdf

* Krimmel Intermediate School: http://www.kleinisd.net/docs/1-mapkrimmel.pdf

* Mueller Elementary School (new): http://www.kleinisd.net/docs/50-ElemFinal.pdf (If Mueller was not opening, this would have been zoned to Benignus: http://www.kleinisd.net/docs/1-mapBenignus.pdf)

Klein ISD is opening high school #5, which had been delayed, on a to be announced date: http://www.kleinisd.net/default.aspx?name=kisd.08bond.home - I'm not sure whether this development would be still in Klein Oak or if it would be in another attendance boundary. Also when Ulrich MS opens (construction on it started in 2008), I'm not certain how it would affect this area (as I haven't seen newer attendance boundaries)

Here is the application log showing Gosling Oaks: http://www.tdhca.state.tx.us/multifamily/h...ntiesAppLog.pdf

For people who oppose the development, if any of these schools would be severely overcrowded and current KISD bonds would not remedy the situation, this could be a reason to oppose the development.

Edited May 25, 2009 by VicMan

[Reefmonkey]

Ah, NIMBY rears its ugly head.

These people have to live somewhere, offering them affordable housing helps get them out of the cycle of poverty. Lower poverty means lower crime, it also means less people straining the social welfare programs' coffers, all of which benefits every one of us.

Unless this is going to put some strain on the local infrastructure such as overcrowding the schools, I don't think you will have any success getting this stopped.

And yes, I do have low-income apartments near my subdivision. It's not the end of the world.

[kylejack]

Amazing the sense of NIMBY there is even way out on 2920@Gosling.

[Arivechi]

It's NIMBY but I don't see that the new neighborhood would really be in anyone's "backyard". The outline of this development doesn't abut existing neighborhoods (according to Google's Satellite view). It looks sorta isolated and vacant. So, I guess I'm not sure why you are worked up? The blog website states concern for the design/architecture of the complex - but this isn't IN a single-family home neighborhood. Even in the rest of Houston there isn't anything anyone can do about what is ACTUALLY built/developed next door to them luxury nor low-income. Ashby skyrise for example. Would this be a problem if it were simply any-ole apartment complex? Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about?

The site is within a block of Walmart and a gigantic shopping center and restaurants and a super market so it shouldn't be hard for the residents to get to services and food and whatnot. Seems like a fine place if you ask me.

I think the only arguments would come related to suggestions above: school population or environmental impact or something else infrastructural. I don't know the area well so I don't know what traffic is like on those streets.

[VicMan]

Another argument you could use to oppose the development is to say that METRO service does not already exist in the area, so it would be more difficult for residents of the complex to travel to their jobs.

If you see this map, the furthest METRO service goes is to 249 @ Louetta: http://www.ridemetro.org/SchedulesMaps/Pdf...-System-Map.pdf

[EMME]

Amazing the sense of NIMBY there is even way out on 2920@Gosling.

If it was going to be put in my neighborhood, I would understand, but outside of my neighborhood? Not so much.

Like I often say, soon they are going to demand gates around their gated communities.

[StopGoslingOaks]

We appreciate all the suggestions and feedback... even the attempted liberal guilt-trip about "NIMBY"

BTW, reporters from ABC 13 and FOX 26 have already been out today to interview residents, and may be present to cover our initial community meeting at 8 pm at the Windrose meeting house tonight.

Stay tuned.

[TheNiche]

Another argument you could use to oppose the development is to say that METRO service does not already exist in the area, so it would be more difficult for residents of the complex to travel to their jobs.

If you see this map, the furthest METRO service goes is to 249 @ Louetta: http://www.ridemetro.org/SchedulesMaps/Pdf...-System-Map.pdf

To be clear, the spirit of the Tax Credit program is to provide workforce housing, not housing for desperately-poor bums. Tenants are screened for criminal background, credit history, and income. They have jobs. And the vast majority have cars, even in urban environments.

[StopGoslingOaks]

I am certain that is the "spirit" (aka "theory") of the program, but we all know there is a difference between theory and reality, between best hopes and actual results.

I think it revealing that the developers behind this project have never proposed that an affordable-housing for teachers, fire-fighters and police officers apartment complex be built with tax credits near their own homes.

[kylejack]

We appreciate all the suggestions and feedback... even the attempted liberal guilt-trip about "NIMBY"

BTW, reporters from ABC 13 and FOX 26 have already been out today to interview residents, and may be present to cover our initial community meeting at 8 pm at the Windrose meeting house tonight.

Stay tuned.

How about you just build a big fence and buy some guns in case any of those mongrels invade your plantation?

[EMME]

How about you just build a big fence and buy some guns in case any of those mongrels invade your plantation?

You gotta feel for them. Those neighborhoods were created to flee from the innercity neighborhoods and now the innercity is running to the outercity. We used to call it "white flight." I don't think that is necessarily the conscious motivation of these folks today, but passed down through the generations that started this is an irrational fear of "these people." Those of us that stayed in the city, have come to love the diversity. But fear motivates people to do some unpleasant things sometimes.

[TheNiche]

I am certain that is the "spirit" (aka "theory") of the program, but we all know there is a difference between theory and reality, between best hopes and actual results.

Well actually, the properties are typically managed very competently. There are policies and procedures in place to minimize the number of false positives where background checks are concerned. After all, it does the owners of such a large and valuable asset no good to have to deal with high tenant turnover, not only among the people who have caused turmoil, but by those affected by it.

Where there is a schism between the spirit of the program and the reality is that the whole idea is to be able to develop housing of this nature in areas of a city that are not otherwise affordable to working class stiffs. The theory goes that by introducing the working class into less affordable neighborhoods, the residents and especially their children will benefit from interactions with more highly-productive people...like yourself. In actuality, this is an ideal location for such a project, given the underlying philosophy of the program. HOWEVER, the way that these proposals are scored, what typically happens is that Tax Credit properties are built in already-slummy areas and marketed at below-market rental rates, such as would suggest that the actual philosophy of the program is that everybody should be entitled to new-ish housing. That's the problem.

This one that you're talking about actually makes sense per the stated philosophy. It is a shining example of what ought to be done with this program, given its strategic goals.

I think it revealing that the developers behind this project have never proposed that an affordable-housing for teachers, fire-fighters and police officers apartment complex be built with tax credits near their own homes.

How do you know that they do not already live in close proximity to Tax Credit housing? If I recall correctly, there are over 120+ of these complexes scattered throughout Houston and its suburbs.

[EMME]

You gotta feel for them. Those neighborhoods were created to flee from the innercity neighborhoods and now the innercity is running to the outercity. We used to call it "white flight." I don't think that is necessarily the conscious motivation of these folks today, but passed down through the generations that started this is an irrational fear of "these people." Those of us that stayed in the city, have come to love the diversity. But fear motivates people to do some unpleasant things sometimes.

River Oaks lived most of its life (until recent years) next to the fourth ward. Garden Oaks is next to Independence Heights. West University and Bellaire are next to the Gulfton area. Unless you are going to resort to euthanasia, at some point the property lines between the working poor and the middle class have to cross.

[Reefmonkey]

I am certain that is the "spirit" (aka "theory") of the program, but we all know there is a difference between theory and reality, between best hopes and actual results.

I think it revealing that the developers behind this project have never proposed that an affordable-housing for teachers, fire-fighters and police officers apartment complex be built with tax credits near their own homes.

We appreciate all the suggestions and feedback... even the attempted liberal guilt-trip about "NIMBY"

BTW, reporters from ABC 13 and FOX 26 have already been out today to interview residents, and may be present to cover our initial community meeting at 8 pm at the Windrose meeting house tonight.

Stay tuned.

And yet you still haven't told us why you oppose the project. What bad things do you think will happen once this project opens? You came here asking us for our support, yet you give us no reason to support you, and all but one of us just don't see what you're up in arms about. Convince us. If you can't even do that, can't even articulate your concerns to us, how do you expect to convince TDHCA?

You can talk about "attempted liberal guilt trips" all you want, but right now you are coming across as a reactionary alarmist. If you articulate your concerns to the reporters as badly as you did here in writing, you and your fellow residents are going to come across really badly on 13 and 26 tonight. You're going to look like racists, even if you aren't That's going to be the best way to slant the story, because there will be no other way for them to sell it if you don't express valid concerns.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Reefmonkey

[EMME]

And yet you still haven't told us why you oppose the project. What bad things do you think will happen once this project opens? You came here asking us for our support, yet you give us no reason to support you, and all but one of us just don't see what you're up in arms about. Convince us. If you can't even do that, can't even articulate your concerns to us, how do you expect to convince TDHCA?

You can talk about "attempted liberal guilt trips" all you want, but right now you are coming across as a reactionary alarmist. If you articulate your concerns to the reporters as badly as you did here in writing, you and your fellow residents are going to come across really badly on 13 and 26 tonight. You're going to look like racists, even if you aren't That's going to be the best way to slant the story, because there will be no way to sell it if you don't express valid concerns.

I can't speak to Channel 13, but I have personal experience with Fox 26. While I spoke of reconciliation between my neighborhood and the developer that was trying to build there, they slanted it to appear that I was furthering the fight. Beware of them, they will make it ugly and dirty, regardless of your intent.

[MOMMA]

Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing. This is not a "vacant" area. There are several communities with a 1-mile radius of the proposed site. One in particular is diagonal and homes start in the $300,000. This would drastically change the property values for this area as well as the marketability of the surrounding neighborhoods. You cannot rely on GoogleEarth to show you all of the development. (They still have not updated GoogleEarth with all of the devastation of Hurricane Ike more than 8 months ago.) MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT IS THAT WE ARE USING TAX DOLLARS TO MOVE LOW INCOME FAMILIES INTO OUR SUBURBS. We moved out of downtown to get away from "low income" housing and now they are proposing to use my tax dollars to move them right in; not to mention the impact this would have on our schools. Klein ISD is having to build elementary school just about every year to keep up with the development in this area. FM2920 and Spring Stuebner are parking lots at 5pm and we should be using our tax dollars to expand these roads rather than bringing in more people.

And most of the developers do not care about the maintenance of the development. Look at the Greenspoint area for example. Cityview spent so much money fixing up that area and marketing it as a good place to live. Now they are renting to anyone with a pulse just to get the rent check. It's all about the $$.

Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about? YES!! I don't want people walking their shopping carts down 2920 to get to the low income housing project from their shopping trip to the local Wal-Mart or grocery store.

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

[EMME]

Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing. This is not a "vacant" area. There are several communities with a 1-mile radius of the proposed site. One in particular is diagonal and homes start in the $300,000. This would drastically change the property values for this area as well as the marketability of the surrounding neighborhoods. You cannot rely on GoogleEarth to show you all of the development. (They still have not updated GoogleEarth with all of the devastation of Hurricane Ike more than 8 months ago.) MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT IS THAT WE ARE USING TAX DOLLARS TO MOVE LOW INCOME FAMILIES INTO OUR SUBURBS. We moved out of downtown to get away from "low income" housing and now they are proposing to use my tax dollars to move them right in; not to mention the impact this would have on our schools. Klein ISD is having to build elementary school just about every year to keep up with the development in this area. FM2920 and Spring Stuebner are parking lots at 5pm and we should be using our tax dollars to expand these roads rather than bringing in more people.

And most of the developers do not care about the maintenance of the development. Look at the Greenspoint area for example. Cityview spent so much money fixing up that area and marketing it as a good place to live. Now they are renting to anyone with a pulse just to get the rent check. It's all about the $$.

Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about? YES!! I don't want people walking their shopping carts down 2920 to get to the low income housing project from their shopping trip to the local Wal-Mart or grocery store.

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

And there you have it...But at least she is honest about it. Keep on moving momma, eventually you'll run into somebody protesting your existence.

[kylejack]

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

I live in a townhouse in the Third Ward. If I can live in an entire community populated mostly by low-income people I think you can afford to live near one single development. These developments are all over and I'd wager that I live within 5 miles of many more such projects than you.

[KatieDidIt]

Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing. This is not a "vacant" area. There are several communities with a 1-mile radius of the proposed site. One in particular is diagonal and homes start in the $300,000. This would drastically change the property values for this area as well as the marketability of the surrounding neighborhoods. You cannot rely on GoogleEarth to show you all of the development. (They still have not updated GoogleEarth with all of the devastation of Hurricane Ike more than 8 months ago.) MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT IS THAT WE ARE USING TAX DOLLARS TO MOVE LOW INCOME FAMILIES INTO OUR SUBURBS. We moved out of downtown to get away from "low income" housing and now they are proposing to use my tax dollars to move them right in; not to mention the impact this would have on our schools. Klein ISD is having to build elementary school just about every year to keep up with the development in this area. FM2920 and Spring Stuebner are parking lots at 5pm and we should be using our tax dollars to expand these roads rather than bringing in more people.

And most of the developers do not care about the maintenance of the development. Look at the Greenspoint area for example. Cityview spent so much money fixing up that area and marketing it as a good place to live. Now they are renting to anyone with a pulse just to get the rent check. It's all about the $$.

Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about? YES!! I don't want people walking their shopping carts down 2920 to get to the low income housing project from their shopping trip to the local Wal-Mart or grocery store.

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

Walmart attracts the poor just about as much as anything. You're first mistake was letting the Walmart build there.

[kylejack]

Walmart attracts the poor just about as much as anything. You're first mistake was letting the Walmart build there.

Yeah, we don't tolerate any Wal-Marts inside the Loop.

Well one, the Meyerland one...but its barely inside.

[RedScare]

Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing.

I grew up in the area. My parents and 2 brothers live right down the street from there still. I am not upset by it.

[MOMMA]

I live in a townhouse in the Third Ward. If I can live in an entire community populated mostly by low-income people I think you can afford to live near one single development. These developments are all over and I'd wager that I live within 5 miles of many more such projects than you.

And I bet that I pay more in property taxes and for my home than you did. You chose where you wanted to live as did I. Those developments were there when you chose your home so you knew what you were buying. This is a developer wanting to use MY tax dollars to build a community of socially dependant people. Move them in next to you...what's one more in your area?

[barracuda]

I don't understand what the fear is about. The people working at local low-wage businesses need to live somewhere. It seems logical that they have an affordable place to live within reasonable commuting distance. If you don't want to live near other people or conveniences, you could just buy a large plot of land in the country and fence it off.

I also think subsidized housing is emblematic of the "low prices no matter what the cost" philosophy of retailers like Walmart and the consumers who shop there. Most of the people working at such retail establishments can never even hope to live in a luxurious four bedroom house like the ones you and your neighbors probably have.

Edited May 27, 2009 by barracuda

[MOMMA]

I grew up in the area. My parents and 2 brothers live right down the street from there still. I am not upset by it.

Well great..but I noticed you didn't say YOU live here. Maybe that's why you are not upset...it's your parents property value not yours.

[KatieDidIt]

The land is cheap out there. Central Houston's land isn't cheap anymore. They can't afford to buy enough property to build these complexes in town anymore. And just like people who can't afford the property near or in the centrals areas, the developers have had to move out as well.

[kylejack]

And I bet that I pay more in property taxes and for my home than you did. You chose where you wanted to live as did I. Those developments were there when you chose your home so you knew what you were buying. This is a developer wanting to use MY tax dollars to build a community of socially dependant people. Move them in next to you...what's one more in your area?

You only have legitimate domain over your own property. If you want to control what is built on neighboring property, buy up the land and build whatever you want.

[TheNiche]

MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT IS THAT WE ARE USING TAX DOLLARS TO MOVE LOW INCOME FAMILIES INTO OUR SUBURBS.

In principle, I agree that that is a problem. I do not agree with the rationale of the Tax Credit program, either in principle or in practice.

However, the strategic intent of the program was set up by our elected officials, and it will only be fixed by way of new legislation by elected officials. It's not a line of argument that you're going to be able to use to block this particular project.

Sorry, but that's reality.

And most of the developers do not care about the maintenance of the development. Look at the Greenspoint area for example. Cityview spent so much money fixing up that area and marketing it as a good place to live. Now they are renting to anyone with a pulse just to get the rent check. It's all about the $$.

Cityview is neither a Tax Credit project nor without leasing standards. This comment is irrelevant to the issue.

But you are correct that "it's all about the $$." The thing is, though, that aside from the very worst complexes, which are not typically professionally managed, background checks are standard for a reason other than to satisfy the complexes' neighbors. It is to manage liability and property risk, to reduce tenant turnover and the rate of evictions (which impacts the operating budget in a big way).

Is it the "low-income" part that you're unhappy about? YES!! I don't want people walking their shopping carts down 2920 to get to the low income housing project from their shopping trip to the local Wal-Mart or grocery store.

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

You purchased a home in a part of unincorporated Harris County which has numerous tracts of undeveloped land and no zoning. You knew that. Within your neighborhood you have deed restrictions, however those deed restrictions have no jurisdiction beyond that neighborhood. You knew that. The regulatory environment offers you very little recourse to resolve grievances of this sort. You knew that.

The school district is very aware that they have vacant land and are growing and that one component of this growth will be from multifamily properties. In a district as large as Klein ISD, they may even have a full-time demographer on staff. And to supplement those efforts, many school districts also hire out consultants to forecast where growth is likely take place, and these consultants certainly do take the characteristics of multifamily residences into account. If Klein ISD is caught unprepared, it was their responsibility and it was their own failure.

I sympathize with your situation, however the circumstances being what they are, the risk of a project like this impacting your community has to be accepted as a systematic risk, one that is exceedingly difficult to avoid. If you happened to have previously believed otherwise, well you'll have to chalk it up as an error on your part and take personal responsibility for it.

[MOMMA]

You only have legitimate domain over your own property. If you want to control what is built on neighboring property, buy up the land and build whatever you want.

NO I have a voice and I have State Representatives and I have neighbors that all have voices. These projects have to have approval to use our tax dollars.

[kylejack]

Presumably you shop at grocery stores, so perhaps some low-income workers in your area would be good. Lower grocery prices, more employees. Try and see the positive side of this.

[Reefmonkey]

Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing.

Actually, I grew up fairly near there, in Cypresswood.

Unless you live in this area, you have no right to comment about where would be a "fine place" for "low income" housing. This is not a "vacant" area. There are several communities with a 1-mile radius of the proposed site. One in particular is diagonal and homes start in the $300,000. This would drastically change the property values for this area as well as the marketability of the surrounding neighborhoods.

The low-income apartments within walking distance of my 2200 sq ft 1-story house built in 1965 didn't stop it from selling for over $300K.

MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS DEVELOPMENT IS THAT WE ARE USING TAX DOLLARS TO MOVE LOW INCOME FAMILIES INTO OUR SUBURBS. We moved out of downtown to get away from "low income" housing and now they are proposing to use my tax dollars to move them right in; not to mention the impact this would have on our schools. Klein ISD is having to build elementary school just about every year to keep up with the development in this area. FM2920 and Spring Stuebner are parking lots at 5pm and we should be using our tax dollars to expand these roads rather than bringing in more people.

The city is growing, it's expanding, the land out there is some of the cheaper land in the Houston area. Would you rather they used more of your tax dollars so they could buy more expensive land closer into the city?

That area was farmland before you moved out there. you moved out there because someone started a process of suburbanizing the area, and more and more development was the inevitable outcome of that process that you helped along by buying a home out there, then wanting a closeby supermarket and drycleaner. You don't get to freeze time, to stop progress. Mostly you don't get to dictate what gets built on land you don't own. Accept it and go on with your life.

I don't want people walking their shopping carts down 2920 to get to the low income housing project from their shopping trip to the local Wal-Mart or grocery store.

Wow, that's lovely. I'm wondering, are you a churchgoing Christian? Just curious.

If you think it's a "fine" project, move them in next to your neighborhood. Oh yeah--NIMBY!!

They are in my backyard, and I accept the reality that I live in a large, sprawling, diverse city, so not everyone near me is going to be white and middle class like me.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Reefmonkey

[KatieDidIt]

Actually, I grew up fairly near there, in Cypresswood.

The low-income apartments within walking distance of my 2200 sq ft 1-story house built in 1965 didn't stop it from selling for over $300K.

The city is growing, it's expanding, the land out there is some of the cheaper land in the Houston area. Would you rather they used more of your tax dollars so they could buy more expensive land closer into the city?

That area was farmland before you moved out there. you moved out there because someone started a process of suburbanizing the area, and more and more development was the inevitable outcome of that process that you helped along by buying a home out there, then wanting a closeby supermarket and drycleaner. You don't get to freeze time, to stop progress. Mostly you don't get to dictate what gets built on land you don't own. Accept it and go on with your life.

Wow, that's lovely. I'm wondering, are you a churchgoing Christian? Just curious.

They are in my backyard, and I accept the reality that I live in a large, sprawling, diverse city, so not everyone near me is going to be white and middle class like me.

Reef, the only difference is when they tear those Tully things down one day, they are going to build million dollar patio homes. 25 to an acre.

[RedScare]

Well great..but I noticed you didn't say YOU live here. Maybe that's why you are not upset...it's your parents property value not yours.

I'm not concerned about property values. They are my parents. They are in their mid-80s. I am concerned about their well-being, and this project does not concern me in that respect. And, since you apparently cannot read my info under my name, I live inside the loop, surrounded by low-income neighborhoods, with a low income apartment building on my block. In spite of all the wretched refuse surrounding me, the value of my property has nearly doubled in 5 years, to where my 1360 sf shoebox of a house is likely worth more than your McMansion. So, no, I am not the least bit worried about property values, or the effect that the working poor have on it.

Hope this helps.

[TheNiche]

Presumably you shop at grocery stores, so perhaps some low-income workers in your area would be good. Lower grocery prices, more employees. Try and see the positive side of this.

Nah, I've got reject this. Firstly, the price of groceries at a particular store is not directly related to the cost of goods sold, but to what the market can bear. Lowering a store's operating expense only results in profit for that store, not necessarily in savings for the consumer. Even if there were meaningful savings, they'd be so minuscule relative to the impact on property values immediately around the Tax Credit housing as to make such a comparison absurd. You may as well try to find the silver lining in a hurricane.

You were correct about having plenty of Tax Credit projects near where you live. There's even a new one that was completed last year at Canal and Jensen, just to the north of you, that was on very expensive land and is four stories over a parking structure. You also have a bunch of Section 8 within that five-mile radius, however, and that stuff legitimately does stink up the inner loop schools and adversely impact property values. I think that most suburban NIMBYists don't really understand the difference between Tax Credit and Section 8, though.

[Reefmonkey]

Reef, the only difference is when they tear those Tully things down one day, they are going to build million dollar patio homes. 25 to an acre.

Now I AM worried. NOT IN MY BACKYARD!

Edited May 27, 2009 by Reefmonkey

[kylejack]

Nah, I've got reject this. Firstly, the price of groceries at a particular store is not directly related to the cost of goods sold, but to what the market can bear. Lowering a store's operating expense only results in profit for that store, not necessarily in savings for the consumer.

Stores may not give much back when their expenses are low, but raising a store's operating expenses certainly results in higher prices for the consumer, and recruitment of new employees in a high turnover industry can be difficult if they don't live close by or have access to decent mass transit.

[EMME]

Reality...there are lots of low income people in the Tomball area, so really, what are you opposing?

I find it difficult to feel sympathy for someone with so little of it.

I live a few streets from Independence Heights. There is a freeway between us, but there are cut throughs under it. I grew up across the street from Tanglewood and went to school with people from the poorer areas (at that time off of Hillcroft Ave. between Richmond and 59). My best friends were one of the Bush children and a young Jewish girl who lived in some apartments (such shame in those days). Her dad slept all day and worked all night. I never saw him in the vertical. My favorite schoolmate in first grade was Freddy Jiminez, I don't think his parents spoke english, but he did. My Jewish friend would not have been welcome at our country club, and I am certain that Freddy would not have either. Times have changed here in the city (certainly not enough), but evidently not at all in Tomball. My nephew whom I love and adore lives there. He grew up in the Klein school district. And while he is a lovely and hard working young man, he shows me all the time what you guys teach there, and it ain't being tolerant, loving, and kind.

[TheNiche]

I'm not concerned about property values. They are my parents. They are in their mid-80s. I am concerned about their well-being, and this project does not concern me in that respect. And, since you apparently cannot read my info under my name, I live inside the loop, surrounded by low-income neighborhoods, with a low income apartment building on my block. In spite of all the wretched refuse surrounding me, the value of my property has nearly doubled in 5 years, to where my 1360 sf shoebox of a house is likely worth more than your McMansion. So, no, I am not the least bit worried about property values, or the effect that the working poor have on it.

Hope this helps.

Surely you do recognize that MOMMA's concerns are legitimate. The market dynamics affecting properties in the Heights are very different from those that affect suburban areas. In short, affluent households are only willing to tolerate purchasing a new home in the suburbs because they want a safe environment and good schools in which to raise their kids. The reality is that kids are going to act the way that they were raised to act, no matter where they're raised, however even very smart people confuse correlation with causation in ways that prompt them to buy very expensive homes in places that they regard as kid-friendly.

If something about a neighborhood changes which detracts from the kid-friendliness, whether real or perceived, the market reacts adversely. Anybody who owns a home in that area is going to be affected by the adverse impact to market prices and the potential for conditions which could lead to future 'white flight'.

Edited May 27, 2009 by TheNiche

[EMME]

Surely you do recognize that MOMMA's concerns are legitimate. The market dynamics affecting properties in the Heights are very different from those that affect suburban areas. In short, affluent households are only willing to tolerate purchasing a new home in the suburbs because they want a safe environment and good schools in which to raise their kids. The reality is that kids are going to act the way that they were raised to act, no matter where they're raised, however even very smart people confuse correlation with causation in ways that prompt them to buy very expensive homes in places that they regard as kid-friendly.

If something about a neighborhood changes which detracts from the kid-friendliness, whether real or perceived, the market reacts adversely. Anybody who owns a home in that area is going to be affected by the market prices and the potential for conditions which could lead to future 'white flight'.

They need to change their perception. It's like a girl who perceives there are germs on the toilet seat in the women's room so they squat over the toilet thereby leaving germs on the toilet seat. Just sit down already!

[MOMMA]

I am not expecting everyone to be white and middle class. My parents grew up inside the loop and wanted a better life for us. I am just wanting the same for my children. Schools with less than 30 kids in a classroom and the ability to be in local establishments late at night.

You cannot compare HISTORIC downtown to the suburbs. When you purchase a home for $300,000 downtown you are paying for location...proximity to everything downtown has to offer. But I would bet that you don't wander around the streets past 10pm, even to go grocery shopping.

[TheNiche]

Stores may not give much back when their expenses are low, but raising a store's operating expenses certainly results in higher prices for the consumer, and recruitment of new employees in a high turnover industry can be difficult if they don't live close by or have access to decent mass transit.

The stores that already exist were built to be able to charge groceries at the price that the market would bear without having easy access to unskilled labor. If the store is already able to make a profit and the market for groceries has already been proven, then what is the motivation for that store to reduce its product pricing as a response to lower operating costs in what in an exurban (typically duopolistic) competitive landscape?

[MOMMA]

They need to change their perception. It's like a girl who perceives there are germs on the toilet seat in the women's room so they squat over the toilet thereby leaving germs on the toilet seat. Just sit down already!

It's just like a flu..THE SWINE FLU..panic and perception closes schools for weeks. Why?? Because the best predictor of future events is the past. People died in Mexico...causes pandemic scares in the USA. Low income homes tend to bring more crime/gangs/drugs/graffiti. Any of the areas mentioned that have these projects in their backyards cannot say that their community is free of these things. Why is it so bad to not want that in our area as well?? Is it the "misery loves company" theory. "I have it you can too!!"

[KatieDidIt]

I am not expecting everyone to be white and middle class. My parents grew up inside the loop and wanted a better life for us. I am just wanting the same for my children. Schools with less than 30 kids in a classroom and the ability to be in local establishments late at night.

Funny, I moved back in from The Woodlands to get that.

[KatieDidIt]

It's just like a flu..THE SWINE FLU..panic and perception closes schools for weeks. Why?? Because the best predictor of future events is the past. People died in Mexico...causes pandemic scares in the USA. Low income homes tend to bring more crime/gangs/drugs/graffiti. Any of the areas mentioned that have these projects in their backyards cannot say that their community is free of these things. Why is it so bad to not want that in our area as well?? Is it the "misery loves company" theory. "I have it you can too!!"

My neighborhood is free of things. We have plenty of low income all around us in every direction, and the houses are worth well more than 300,000. I'm pretty fasinated by this fear in some of these thread here lately.

Edited May 27, 2009 by KatieDidIt

[Reefmonkey]

You cannot compare HISTORIC downtown to the suburbs. When you purchase a home for $300,000 downtown you are paying for location...proximity to everything downtown has to offer. But I would bet that you don't wander around the streets past 10pm, even to go grocery shopping.

I'm not comparing them. I don't live downtown, I live outside Beltway 8, at Dairy-Ashford, in the suburbs. That also happen to have low-income apartments. We go out at night, to the grocery story, to the restaurants around us, for walks in our neighborhood. We don't live in paranoid histrionic fear.

[TheNiche]

They need to change their perception. It's like a girl who perceives there are germs on the toilet seat in the women's room so they squat over the toilet thereby leaving germs on the toilet seat. Just sit down already!

Say that you're a commercial property manager and women keep on spraying the toilet seat. Which is the more rational response: 1) accommodate their irrational fears by providing paper toilet seat covers, thereby reducing the incidences of nasty toilet seats which increases tenant satisfaction and reduces janitorial overhead, or 2) lecture them on an internet forum?

[MOMMA]

I'm not comparing them. I don't live downtown, I live outside Beltway 8, at Dairy-Ashford, in the suburbs. That also happen to have low-income apartments. We go out at night, to the grocery story, to the restaurants around us, for walks in our neighborhood. We don't live in paranoid histrionic fear.

I don't either...just an informed home-owner who cares and who is going to speak her mind!! That's awesome for you!!!

[RedScare]

Surely you do recognize that MOMMA's concerns are legitimate. The market dynamics affecting properties in the Heights are very different from those that affect suburban areas. In short, affluent households are only willing to tolerate purchasing a new home in the suburbs because they want a safe environment and good schools in which to raise their kids. The reality is that kids are going to act the way that they were raised to act, no matter where they're raised, however even very smart people confuse correlation with causation in ways that prompt them to buy very expensive homes in places that they regard as kid-friendly.

If something about a neighborhood changes which detracts from the kid-friendliness, whether real or perceived, the market reacts adversely. Anybody who owns a home in that area is going to be affected by the adverse impact to market prices and the potential for conditions which could lead to future 'white flight'.

While I wouldn't call a subdivision where the overwhelming majority of the homes sell for under $300,000 affluent, I recognize that the homeowners fears that, being the suburbs, only other narrow minded individuals would purchase out there, and a project such as this may scare those prospective buyers away. However, my recognition of the thought process used by these homeowners does not require me then to agree with it. The fact is, these apartment complexes are indistinguishable from any other upper middle class complex. They're even likely to put that hideous hill country stone on them to make them look like homes you'd find in Windrose. The only way prospective homebuyers will even know it is there is because the current Windrose homeowners made such a big public televised stink about it.

Note to Momma. I don't wander my streets at 10 pm. Because I work nights, I wander them at 4 am and shop at the 24 hour Kroger on Shepherd. When it is cold, they even let homeless people sleep in the heated foyer. No, this does not bother me.

[Reefmonkey]

I don't either...just an informed home-owner who cares and who is going to speak her mind!! That's awesome for you!!!

Well, I guess StopGoslingOaks signed up on this website today thinking she'd post about her efforts to block this project and would get a wave of support. When that didn't happen, she got you to sign up for the website so that you could back her up. I'm not sure if she thought you were going to change people's minds, or she just wanted to see one post that supported her. You've spoken your mind alright, but it appears you have made most of us even less sympathic to StopGoslingOaks' cause.