Embarrassed to be a Texan

[IronTiger]

You're right that this news story is very clearly one-sided...so make McLeroy's case, make it dispassionately, and engage in intellectually honest appraisal of its strengths and weaknesses.

Even if I made a brilliant defense, most of your minds wouldn't be swayed in my direction. Is that not true?

Seriously, this thread...it's pointless bashing and one-sided bigotry. Someone sensible should lock it and let it die a slow, watery death. That would be the best ending for this.

[RedScare]

Even if I made a brilliant defense, most of your minds wouldn't be swayed in my direction. Is that not true?

Seriously, this thread...it's pointless bashing and one-sided bigotry. Someone sensible should lock it and let it die a slow, watery death. That would be the best ending for this.

I note that every thread that disagrees with your opinion is bashing and bigotry and should be locked. Apparently, you find it impossible to believe that reasonable people can have opinions that differ from yours without being pointless. Should you ever grow up and move from Bryan/College Station, I believe you will find a huge bashing, bigoted, pointless world out there.

I wish you luck.

[IronTiger]

I note that every thread that disagrees with your opinion is bashing and bigotry and should be locked. Apparently, you find it impossible to believe that reasonable people can have opinions that differ from yours without being pointless. Should you ever grow up and move from Bryan/College Station, I believe you will find a huge bashing, bigoted, pointless world out there.

I wish you luck.

Unlike the other threads (I believe this is the second one where I voted should be locked), this IS one-sided bashing, and unless you suddenly jumped in from the next-to-last point, I suggest you stop. You're right that the world is bashing, bigoted, and pointless, and I guess this is an example. No doubt would you agree the world is an evil place, I've seen it, in Texas, on the HAIF, but also the world is full of idiots. Now, I'm not implying that either of us are idiots...I'm sure that in the "real world", you're an intelligent person with rational thoughts.

Just because something happens in the world doesn't mean it has to happen on the HAIF.

[RedScare]

Thanks for the offer, but I do not take suggestions from irritable high schoolers. That's just how I roll. But, I would be remiss if I did not point out that your repeated temper tantrums are causing the bashing, bigotry and general incivility that you protest against. Since we're making suggestions here, I suggest, as TheNiche did, that you make your opinions and arguments known in an adult and civil manner. In that way, you will not tempt us adults to make annoying posts calculated to cause you a hissy fit.

[IronTiger]

Thanks for the offer, but I do not take suggestions from irritable high schoolers. That's just how I roll. But, I would be remiss if I did not point out that your repeated temper tantrums are causing the bashing, bigotry and general incivility that you protest against. Since we're making suggestions here, I suggest, as TheNiche did, that you make your opinions and arguments known in an adult and civil manner. In that way, you will not tempt us adults to make annoying posts calculated to cause you a hissy fit.

First off, there was the "bashing, bigotry, and general incivility" long before I was involved, so you can't blame me for that.

I'm not trying to tempt "you adults" to make "annoying posts". It seems to me that because I'm on McLeroy's side, you attack me as well as McLeroy.

McLeroy aside, I'm getting really sick of your mean-spirited, antagonistic, and condescending posts here.

[RedScare]

McLeroy aside, I'm getting really sick of your mean-spirited, antagonistic, and condescending posts here.

Well then we need to get back on topic. For the record, I find McLeroy to be an embarrassment as well, but after 32 years in Texas, I am used to people like him. I simply ignore them these days, especially since I am out of school and don't have any kids in school.

[IronTiger]

Well then we need to get back on topic.

Right, one-sided bashing of McLeroy.

Isn't this what the Off-Topic forum of the HAIF is for?

[TheNiche]

Even if I made a brilliant defense, most of your minds wouldn't be swayed in my direction. Is that not true?

Seriously, this thread...it's pointless bashing and one-sided bigotry. Someone sensible should lock it and let it die a slow, watery death. That would be the best ending for this.

Most of us, probably not. I take up very unpopular stances with great frequency. The point of bothering to argue is not that more people will agree with you, but to enjoy the experience of working out a cogent position based in reason and logic. TheHAIF is my sounding board. I've usually taken the time to think through my stance enough to anticipate counter-arguments and already have a response, but sometimes the feedback allows me to refine my position for use in the real world or in conversation, situations where I don't have the time to craft a reasoned position.

As for disrespect, there's not a group of people that you will ever meet that are incapable of it. Get used to it, and understand that if they have to resort to such measures, then they are not approaching the subject from a position of reason. My advice to you is to take the high ground. Use reason against those that are unwilling or unable and whether they are defeated or you prompt them to reasoned thought, you will have brought about an improvement of which you can be proud.

[RedScare]

Oops!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6440787.html

[ihop]

Right, one-sided bashing of McLeroy.

It wouldn't be one-sided if you could make a reasoned defense of his statements.

And I don't correspond bashing to being embarrassed by the fact that a person who strongly influences Texas education policy (and national textbook policies as a result) is seen making an easily refuted, incoherent rant that looks as if it were ripped from a creationist web site.

I think if his statements were easily defensible, you or someone else would have defended them instead of just decrying the injustice of the one-sided bashing

[TheNiche]

And I don't correspond bashing to being embarrassed by the fact that a person who strongly influences Texas education policy (and national textbook policies as a result) is seen making an easily refuted, incoherent rant that looks as if it were ripped from a creationist web site.

I think if his statements were easily defensible, you or someone else would have defended them instead of just decrying the injustice of the one-sided bashing

I'm definitely playing the devil's advocate role on this one, but is it possible that McLeroy's statement as stated in the Chronicle article that his own personal opinions do not impact policy decisions is accurate? And if so, then is it possible that he is in fact an effective administrator, and that his own personal opinions have been completely overblown?

This goes back to a theme that I raised in a different thread concerning politicians' personal beliefs as not necessarily relevant insofar as they they act in the interests of their constituents.

[RedScare]

I'm definitely playing the devil's advocate role on this one, but is it possible that McLeroy's statement as stated in the Chronicle article that his own personal opinions do not impact policy decisions is accurate?

Is it possible? Absolutely.

Is it likely? Given the actions of Dr. McLeroy and the conservative members of the SBOE over the last several years, not very.

[TheNiche]

Is it possible? Absolutely.

Is it likely? Given the actions of Dr. McLeroy and the conservative members of the SBOE over the last several years, not very.

Is there any evidence to that effect?

[RedScare]

Is there any evidence to that effect?

Plenty. Look at the attempts to change the teaching of evolution, and specifically the attempts to add creation teaching. Only one group is pushing that agenda, and McLeroy agrees with the agenda. It is not a big leap.

[TheNiche]

Plenty. Look at the attempts to change the teaching of evolution, and specifically the attempts to add creation teaching. Only one group is pushing that agenda, and McLeroy agrees with the agenda. It is not a big leap.

Fair enough. I have to agree.

[KinkaidAlum]

Fair enough. I have to agree.

And that right there was some pretty quick evolution!

[TheNiche]

And that right there was some pretty quick evolution!

Not really. I started out post #41 by saying:

I'm definitely playing the devil's advocate role on this one, but...

Most of my contributions prior to that were to the effect of that the majority of folks on here were and are right for the wrong reasons...or perhaps reasons not articulated very precisely.

[LTAWACS]

I think it is clear this person is pushing the ID agenda.

"Someone's gotta stand up to these experts!" lol.

[Reefmonkey]

But doesn't he ask legitimate scientific questions, not necessarily related to creationism? If evolution is a gradual change process... how can some evolutionary tracks be vertical in nature, as he claims? Why are there "spontaneous" fossil records that cannot be traced back to other records, as he claims? If we indeed did evolve from monkeys... then why are there still monkeys? (said unknown stand-up comedian). It would be interesting to hear the scientific rebuttal to his arguments vs. just dismissing him as a religious crazy person that believes in nothing but creationism.

On the idea of evolution being a gradual process - it is and it isn't. It can occur gradually in some instances, and it can occur abruptly. Most researchers in evolution believe that it is a mixture of gradual and abrupt changes over time. Look up "punctuated equillibrium" and "quantum evolution" to get an idea for just a few of the models for evolution. Classic Darwinian gradualism has been left behind long ago.

On the idea of some evolutionary tracks being vertical in nature, as McLeroy claims, "evolutionary track" is an astronomical term, not a biological term, so that should clue you into McLeroy's level of understanding. Secondly, assuming that when McLeroy is talking about speciation when he talks about "vertical evolution"; the various mechanisms of speciation are well-understood: eg: allopatric, parapatric, peripatric (which have all been observed), sympatric.

No, we did not evolve from monkeys. We and monkeys both evolved from a common ancestor. However, it is possible for one species to evolve from another species and both species to remain extant. If McLeroy is asserting that this can't happen, then this exposes his ignorance at a basic level of the body of evolutionary theory he is attacking. A particular population of a species can remain genetically stable if its environment remains stable. Genetic changes which differ from the traits that have already adapted it to that environment provide no advantage, even provide a disadvantage, so are not passed on, and that population of that species remains the same. Now if a group migrates from that population, it may find itself in a different environment that favors different traits, and disfavors original traits. This could cause that migrated population to change so much it becomes a new species.

Science has a far better understanding of the mechanisms of evolution than it does the mechanisms of gravity, yet we don't teach high school physics students the "alternative theory" that the Hand of God pushes us down and keeps us from flying off the earth.

There is a story of Gallileo being called before the Inquisition, who demanded he recant his theory that the earth revolves around the sun - or else. Gallileo did recant his theory, but then supposedly looked down at the earth and muttered "yet it moves." No amount of denial by backward people like McLeroy is going to change the FACT that evolution is real, has been observed, and is quite well understood compared to other natural phenomena. It's just sad that in a state that already has one of the worst educational performance records in the country, the chairman of our board of education is actively trying to further weaken the quality of the education our students get.

[Fringe]

Next you will be telling us the earth is not flat.

[LTAWACS]

On the idea of evolution being a gradual process - it is and it isn't. It can occur gradually in some instances, and it can occur abruptly. Most researchers in evolution believe that it is a mixture of gradual and abrupt changes over time. Look up "punctuated equillibrium" and "quantum evolution" to get an idea for just a few of the models for evolution. Classic Darwinian gradualism has been left behind long ago.

On the idea of some evolutionary tracks being vertical in nature, as McLeroy claims, "evolutionary track" is an astronomical term, not a biological term, so that should clue you into McLeroy's level of understanding. Secondly, assuming that when McLeroy is talking about speciation when he talks about "vertical evolution"; the various mechanisms of speciation are well-understood: eg: allopatric, parapatric, peripatric (which have all been observed), sympatric.

No, we did not evolve from monkeys. We and monkeys both evolved from a common ancestor. However, it is possible for one species to evolve from another species and both species to remain extant. If McLeroy is asserting that this can't happen, then this exposes his ignorance at a basic level of the body of evolutionary theory he is attacking. A particular population of a species can remain genetically stable if its environment remains genetically stable. Genetic changes which differ from the traits that have already adapted it to that environment provide no advantage, even provide a disadvantage, so are not passed on, and that population of that species remains the same. Now if a group migrates from that population, it may find itself in a different environment that favors different traits, and disfavors original traits. This could cause that migrated population to change so much it becomes a new species.

Science has a far better understanding of the mechanisms of evolution than it does the mechanisms of gravity, yet we don't teach high school physics students the "alternative theory" that the Hand of God pushes us down and keeps us from flying off the earth.

There is a story of Gallileo being called before the Inquisition, who demanded he recant his theory that the earth revolves around the sun - or else. Gallileo did recant his theory, but then supposedly looked down at the earth and muttered "yet it moves." No amount of denial by backward people like McLeroy is going to change the FACT that evolution is real, has been observed, and is quite well understood compared to other natural phenomena. It's just sad that in a state that already has one of the worst educational performance records in the country, the chairman of our board of education is actively trying to further weaken the quality of the education our students get.

Very well said.

[EMME]

I am not embarrassed to be a Texan although I am occasionally embarrased by other Texans. I am not embarrassed to be a Christian, although my favorite saying is, "Jesus, save us from your followers."

[Fringe]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-Gandhi

[RedScare]

McLeroy smacked down.

http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/arc...sboe-cha-1.html

[Fringe]

Excellent!

[LTAWACS]

What a relief.

Now we have to tell our so-called "representatives" to not vote for what's-her-name who is WORSE than McLeroy. UGH. She might be put up as a candidate for his replacement on the SBOE.

I mean... come on...

"Well I disagree with the experts. I mean... someone's gotta stand up to these experts!" - D. McLeroy

[barracuda]

Yet another reason to be embarrassed to be a Texan. Or should I say, another reason to be embarrassed to have slick Rick Perry as the Governor of Texas.

Rick Perry: "God Bless Rush Limbaugh"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/03/r...h_n_210969.html

[TheNiche]

Put yourself in the position of Rick Perry, gearing up for a knock-out political fight with Sen. Hutchison. If all it took was a piece of heavy-stock paper with words printed on it, a pat on the back, and the comment that a non-entity ought to do something for someone in order to generate free publicity for yourself, you'd do it too.

The disappointing thing is that so many people on both sides of the political isle are going to read into it, thinking that Perry is actually operating on principle rather than merely engaging in political maneuvers.

EDIT: Replaced "embarrassing" with "disappointing" to fulfill RedScare's anal-retentive need for semantic consistency.

[Don Julio]

If we indeed did evolve from monkeys... then why are there still monkeys? (said unknown stand-up comedian).

Actually, when I read questions like this, I really question how much homo sapiens have evolved at all.

[barracuda]

Put yourself in the position of Rick Perry, gearing up for a knock-out political fight with Sen. Hutchison. If all it took was a piece of heavy-stock paper with words printed on it, a pat on the back, and the comment that a non-entity ought to do something for someone in order to generate free publicity for yourself, you'd do it too.

The embarrassing thing is that so many people on both sides of the political isle are going to read into it, thinking that Perry is actually operating on principle rather than merely engaging in political maneuvers.

Yeah, Perry will sink to the lowest of lows for a chance to win cheap political points with the backwash of Texas.