Arizona Search & Seizure

[IronTiger]

http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2009/04/...reme-court.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...0,6016774.story

The short version of the story is that some students in an Arizona MIDDLE SCHOOL told some administrators that a 13-year-old girl had prescription-strength ibuprofen and they strip-searched her (down to her underwear) and found nothing. The parents weren't even called about it!

Personally, being a high school student, the excuse they gave: "school safety" is a catch-all that is for the most part BS.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

[marmer]

Prescription-strength IBUPROFEN? WTF? How is that in any way an "abusable" drug? "Oh, waaah, man, my knee doesn't hurt anymore! Cooool, dude!"

I'm really glad that I graduated from public school before they suddenly got so weird about normal everyday medicine.

[RedScare]

A few things here without arguing the merits of the case...

People, including kids, DO hide contraband in their underwear. They even hide it in body cavities, "ick" factor be damned.

Prescription drug abuse has become nearly an epidemic in the US, both by adults and teens. It is easy to steal a few pills from the parent's bottle, and it is easy to find them on the street. Moreover, people do not even consider driving while under the influence of these drugs illegal if their doctor prescribed them. The fact that they overuse them and have little driving ability while on them does not seem to mean anything. NOTE: It IS illegal to drive under the influence of prescription meds, regardless whether they were legally prescribed.

Children have been found to have fewer rights than adults, so searches of children may be legal while the same search of an adult is not. This case is a classic example of the "slippery slope" argument. Note that the lawyer for the school district claimed that while no school official would do it, a cavity search WOULD be legal (What an ignorant statement. If the Court says that cavity searches are legal, it is only a matter of time before a "well meaning" school official does it). Would you like to find that your 12 year old daughter was cavity searched because a classmate said she saw her with pills?

This type of situation arises daily in the criminal courts. It is the natural by=product of a society that worships prescription drugs at the same time that it declares a 'War on Drugs'. To think that children do not receive mixed signals about drug use in a society like this is incredibly naive.

[marmer]

Prescription drug abuse has become nearly an epidemic in the US, both by adults and teens. It is easy to steal a few pills from the parent's bottle, and it is easy to find them on the street. Moreover, people do not even consider driving while under the influence of these drugs illegal if their doctor prescribed them. The fact that they overuse them and have little driving ability while on them does not seem to mean anything. NOTE: It IS illegal to drive under the influence of prescription meds, regardless whether they were legally prescribed.

Right, I understand. All that hoopla about the teacher with Xanax in her car, etc. And DUI is DUI regardless of the intoxicating agent.

But IBUPROFEN? Is that some kind of a psychoactive drug I don't know about? What if she had a prescription for it? Do people actually carry prescriptions around in case of these situations? Sure seems to me that there's a world of difference between narcotic painkillers like Vicodin and ibuprofen. Or is this something like Tylenol III with codeine?

[RedScare]

Right, I understand. All that hoopla about the teacher with Xanax in her car, etc. And DUI is DUI regardless of the intoxicating agent.

But IBUPROFEN? Is that some kind of a psychoactive drug I don't know about? What if she had a prescription for it? Do people actually carry prescriptions around in case of these situations? Sure seems to me that there's a world of difference between narcotic painkillers like Vicodin and ibuprofen. Or is this something like Tylenol III with codeine?

I am no expert on prescription pain killers, since I am not a pill popper, but basically, prescription strength ibuprofen has higher risks and side effects in the higher dosages, which is the reason that the FDA made it a prescription drug. OTC versions do not have those same risks. And, of course, possession of prescription drugs without a prescription is a crime, regardless whether it is the "good stuff".

But, if you are asking if I think the schools are over-reacting in general, I would answer most definitely, yes. The schools are not alone. The US is rife with examples of dealing with societal ills with draconian laws. We can't seem to get enough of it. This is what it leads to.

[marmer]

Thanks for the info, Red. I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative. But, for legal purposes, what is a prescription? The pill bottle with a name and number on the side? When my doctor gives me a piece of scribbled paper, the pharmacy keeps it, they don't give it back to me.

I think the standard in schools now is that everyone has to take their meds to the nurse's office, OTC or prescription, and prescriptions have to be in the original bottle. Presumably you can get in trouble for having an aspirin in your pocket.

I did a little research on ibuprofen, and, I'm not a doctor, but basically the prescription stuff is a slightly higher dosage per pill than the OTC stuff. Presumably the higher dosage requires a more formal dosing schedule to be perfectly safe. It is not combined with narcotics or steroids in the prescription form. It is not psychoactive or sleep-inducing; in severe overdose situations it can lead to dizziness, headache, gastrointestinal bleeding, and renal failure. It is generally considered the safest painkiller/anti-inflammatory but it is possible to take enough to kill yourself if you try really hard.

In the absence of symptoms of overdose or some kind of disruptive behavior, I'm not seeing any reason to have pursued this at all. Even if her friend just gave her one out of her purse because she had a headache.

[RedScare]

I don't think you are being difficult at all. Explaining some of this stuff can shed some light on some of the mounds of rules and paperwork involved, and some of the silliness that gets in as well. I'll post some more when I get a chance.

OK, basically, doctor's prescription's are covered by numerous laws, both federal and state. Doctor's are required to keep copies of all prescriptions they write. Pharmacists must keep records of prescriptions they fill. The Controlled Subsyance Act and the FDA deal with what ends up being a prescribed medicine and what does not. In Texas, it is illegal to possess prescription drugs that were not prescribed to you. Many police officers will arrest if you do not have the pills in the bottle with your name and prescription on it. The law does not require you to have the bottle, but since some cops arrest on that basis, it is probably a good idea to carry it, or at least remember the name and number of your doctor or pharmacist, so that they can verify it.

Why does this even matter? Well, that is how we get to this Supreme Court case. As we find that more and more drugs can be abused, authorities attempt to regulate the problem through more laws. As the situation becomes more complex, people attempt to simplify it through 'zero tolerance' rules. The schools started going down this road in earnest during Nancy Reagan's 'Just Say No!' campaign. It progressed from the obvious (cocaine, marijuana) to the less obvious (Vicodin, Xanax, Soma) to the ridiculous (ALL prescription drugs, OTC medication).

As schools outlaw ever more substances and items such as pocket knives and even letter openers, some parents push back, demanding common sense. The schools vigorously defend their right to keep order, creating scenarios that are playing out in the Supreme Court now.

[marmer]

Man, I routinely carry a few pills separate from the bottle (meds which must be taken at meals, for example), and wear several tools on my belt which have knife blades among other useful things. I had no idea I was such a trouble-maker!

I hope CPS doesn't come and try to take my daughter away!

[Ross]

I think the school administrators need body cavity searches. The appropriate course of action would have been to call the parents and have them come in ot witness the search, or take the girl home.

If the police stop my Dad, he's in trouble - he carries a pile of pills in a compartmented pill case. I can see it now - 80 year old Katy man charged with felony possession of cholesterol drugs, blood thinners, and beta blockers without displaying a prescription.

[marmer]

I'm not sure anything should have been done. If anything, maybe bring the girl in quietly and have a counselor or a school nurse say in a non-threatening way that she had been seen with painkillers and ask what her situation was. If she was taking them for a legit reason, then simply remind her that the policy states that the nurse's office has to be informed. If she denies it, then you know that you have two people to keep an eye on: the snitch and the accused. If she is bringing contraband to school, then she knows you're on to her. Maybe call the parents to inform them, don't search her, don't send her home.

Now, admittedly, two factors that the linked articles bring up are: 1. the school had had an overdose incident the previous year caused by an unknown medication and 2. there was no way to be certain it really was ibuprofen. That's probably what was driving the vice principal who ordered the search.

Justice Breyer caused quite a stir when he said in court that in his youth "people did sometimes stick things in my underwear." Then he corrected himself: "Or not my underwear. Whatever. Whatever."

[Montrose1100]

I don't know how that Arizona School District works, but KISD has a policy about this... if your child has a perscription, they are not allowed to carry it around, even in the original bottle with their name & such on it. They have to leave the bottles at the Nurse's office, and get special permission to leave class (or go early before lunch) to take their meds.

This some-what limits kids sharing/selling. But usually young kids brag about the drugs they have, or lie to seem cool. And most of the time the other kids will tell or call crime stoppers to make a little cash.

[JLWM8609]

I don't know how that Arizona School District works, but KISD has a policy about this... if your child has a perscription, they are not allowed to carry it around, even in the original bottle with their name & such on it. They have to leave the bottles at the Nurse's office, and get special permission to leave class (or go early before lunch) to take their meds.

Another case of "Bureaucracy knows Best"!

HISD had a similar policy when I was in middle and high school. The nurse had one of my asthma inhalers that I took before PE, but my doctor instructed me to always have a rescue inhaler in my pocket just in case. I always had the rescue inhaler on me, but I never went flashing it around for others to see.