Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ricco67

Obama Vs. Limbaugh Vs. GOP

Recommended Posts

News flash, Mark, I am white, as white as they come. I am also part of the educated middle class I refer to. My point was not about race per se, it was about class. And white people make up most of the middle class. My reference is to the (global) growing divide between the very rich and every one else, and how a college degree or two and hard work will no longer be an invitation to the upper class, or insulation from the lower classes.

Moreover, I wholeheartedly stand by my assertion that educated middle class people work far less hard than their predecessors. There nothing wrong with that. I think I work hard. But we vastly overestimate the extent to which we can attribute our middle class lifestyles to our own mettle. What's distasteful is acting, as I said, like a petulant, hateful douche. Thanks for illustrating my point.

If your statements were not about race - you need to make your point more astutely - because they came off as sounding extremely racist. I for one am tired of being attacked on every single front for being white, and having money. Nobody seems to care that yes I have a high income, but I also have large obligations. Because my wife and I are white we did not qualify for certain low interest student loans. My wife's parents happened to make just enough money to disqualify her for the good loans in both undergrad and grad school, but not enough to pay her way through school....where does that leave us? $150,000 in debt in just student loans.

I dont feel one bit about what I have - and you for one seem to have some sort of guilty conscious about being white. I dont have that. I feel no desire to give away what I have, unless I want to give it away. There is a freight train coming, and your so worried about being progressive and politically correct, your building your house on the tracks. White people are being discriminated against in every single thing they do now not the least of which is government contracts - which if Obama has his way will be all that is left to do in any industry. If a minority feels they were discriminated against, its a hate crime....regardless of what you did. If you disagree with a minoirty, your a racist....they are positioning this country in the name of political correctness to take everything you work for and redistribute it. You cant even disagree with the freaking president of the US without being a racist. Wake up and see it. They are destroying this country. Removing incentives to work and trying to take away so much from those who have earned it.

I have no desire to bring my quality of life down, so that everyone can have equally as much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Enough with the constant overstatement of middle-class specialness. Perhaps we could get past all the rancor by putting things in historical context, or by adopting a broader worldview. There are very few middle class, college educated, young white Americans, making good salaries as corporate cubicle jockeys, who can legitimately claim hard work. The truth is, they got the luck of the draw being born to white middle class parents at the end of the 20th century in America, and have spent their entire lives (as have many of their parents) enjoying the fruits of an economic bubble without much toil. They have acquired much, but earned little, and risked even less. They put on a nice shirt and some wrinkle resistant pants and 'solve problems' or mess about in various software programs for 5 or 6 hours a day. They've been been doing this not terribly hard work for 5 or 6 or 7 years since getting an unremarkable college degree. They are now angry and fearful, because they are vastly outnumbered by non-white people who work in a less important capacity and make far less money, yet multiply much more rapidly and consume more resources.

It sucks to come face-to-face with the notion that the lifestyle one inherited was never fully sustainable, but one doesn't have to act like a petulant, hateful douche about it. American middle class life may be very different in the 21st century. We shall have to adjust.

Yes, I totally understand where you're coming from here, Crunch. "Middle-class white person guilt", a real problem right now, that's been drummed into so many liberal Dems heads that they actually believe this crap.

However, until I see Obama and his Democratic Congress start pulling their kids out of $30K/yr. private schools and enrolling them into the local P.S. 100, dumping the private car & driver and hopping on Metro, and selling their gated community homes and signing up for public housing, quit giving themselves raises and join the rest of America in the new RIF and loss of bonuses, 401K's, health benefits and jobs, I really can't join you in this "we shall have to adjust" garbage." Let our leaders be real leaders in this matter and walk the walk they're asking us to walk.

And, as the liberal Dems love to mindlessly screech, "Don't be a hater, just cuz I'm a middle-class white person!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a honkey and understand what Crunch is saying. I put myself through school w/o benefit of student loans or help from my parents. Yes, it was hard. But not near as hard as my parents and grandparents had it trying to lift themselves from poverty. Heck, my they didn't have electricity until my father was a teenager. I think most Americans have forgotten how to be "poor".

I think we're stuck, frankly, and while I have no confidence in tax cuts, I have no confidence in many parts of the spending bill. And I have even less confidence in Timmy Geithner. He's not much more than Paulson JR, and IMO Paulson is concerned mostly with one thing--keeping GS and their ilk afloat. It's beyond conflict of interest.

I assume you've seen Geithner's resume?

Edited by Gooch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm a honkey and understand what Crunch is saying. I put myself through school w/o benefit of student loans or help from my parents. Yes, it was hard. But not near as hard as my parents and grandparents had it trying to lift themselves from poverty. Heck, my they didn't have electricity until my father was a teenager. I think most Americans have forgotten how to be "poor".

I assume you've seen Geithner's resume?

So, we should throw all the struggles of our granparents out the window? All the hard work they put in to build a better country so their future generations could have an education and better life was a bad thing? I'm sure my Grandfather would have been thrilled to learn this.

I don't think America has forgotten how to be poor, I do think a certain percentage of the poor never learned how to do hard work and now expect to be elevated by a magical wand. To be coddled and bailed out, while the working class continues to struggle to do the right thing and never recieving anything for free. In an sense this puts them on the same level with the hated "generationally wealthy" white man.

A hand out is a hand out. Whether its from your birth right or from Government freebies. It makes no sense to bash one and glorify another.

Oh and all these tortured socialist democrat souls that are conflicted between elevating the poor but wanting to maintain their own lifestyle.... yet they are more than willing to let the top 10% take the hit for their cause. It's just another version of NIMBY isn't it?

JMHO

Edited by KatieDidIt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, we should throw all the struggles of our granparents out the window? All the hard work they put in to build a better country so their future generations could have an education and better life was a bad thing? I'm sure my Grandfather would have been thrilled to learn this.

Katie, with all due respect, you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I never said there was anything wrong with building one's own success from wherever they started from. Nor am I belittling anyone's (modern) accomplishments. But I do recognize that I never feared a shortage of food. I never had to stitch my own cuts up with a needle-and-thread. Most of the things I fear in this economic crisis aren't life endangering.

I don't think America has forgotten how to be poor, I do think a certain percentage of the poor never learned how to do hard work and now expect to be elevated by a magical wand. To be coddled and bailed out

That's exactly what I mean about forgotten about how to be poor. There is no shame (or honor) in poverty. The shame is in not working hard; the honor in doing whatever it takes to succeed. People seem to have forgotten that poverty isn't a life sentance. It CAN be temporary.

So, we should throw all the struggles of our granparents out the window? ... A hand out is a hand out. Whether its from your birth right or ...

I'm not sure I resolve these two (I'm probably missing something)

Edited by Gooch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see any tortured souls here, except maybe Marksmu. I'm don't feel guilt about being white, male or middle class, but I do recognize my good fortune. It would be delusional to think that my prosperity is a result of my hard work. I'm indoors all day, I have health insurance, my job is fun and mentally challenging, there's no heavy lifting, etc. To think that poor people don't have what I have because they're lazy would be insane.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Katie, with all due respect, you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I never said there was anything wrong with building one's own success from wherever they started from. Nor am I belittling anyone's (modern) accomplishments. But I do recognize that I never feared a shortage of food. I never had to stitch my own cuts up with a needle-and-thread. Most of the things I fear in this economic crisis aren't life endangering.

Not really trying to put words in you mouth but

I guess what I'm trying to say, it's a GOOD thing that it gets better for each generation. It's a Good thing that we don't have to fear or face the same things our grandparents did. You shouldn't even have to look back to use them as an example of struggle. It's not the same world they lived in, and they helped make they way it is now. Yea, you may have cushier inside job, and don't do manual labor because you grew up middle class, but you could have easily become a crack addict too. Don't kid yourself, you do or did work hard at something. I'm probably talking to myself in circles anyway.

Motivation moves a country forward. Trying to level the playing field with increasing taxes on the "worker bees" and elevating the less than productive through special programs and hand-outs is a huge step backwards. They won't learn anything from it and we'll end up right back to what started this mess all over again. And strangley this theory is highly supported these days, perhaps not by you, but it is.

Edited by KatieDidIt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still ruminating over the discrimination toward white middle class males issue, but meanwhile, can somewhere throw out some numbers on welfare amounts/types/recipients (and a reference please)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't see any tortured souls here, except maybe Marksmu. I'm don't feel guilt about being white, male or middle class, but I do recognize my good fortune. It would be delusional to think that my prosperity is a result of my hard work. I'm indoors all day, I have health insurance, my job is fun and mentally challenging, there's no heavy lifting, etc. To think that poor people don't have what I have because they're lazy would be insane.

Im not tortured, Im just not going to sit back and allow society to walk all over me simply because it may not be considered polite to stand up against it. I strongly support anyone who is willing to work hard, and everyone who I know who does has been rewarded with success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Motivation moves a country forward.

That's a good phrase and makes me realize what I didn't do a good job of articulating, which is that the past 40 years, it really was GDP and the velocity of capital moving this country forward. The more creative the accounting is, the less motivation and work you need to keep moving forward. You're essentially along for the ride, until the bubble bursts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Im not tortured, Im just not going to sit back and allow society to walk all over me simply because it may not be considered polite to stand up against it.

You sound a little tortured on here.

I strongly support anyone who is willing to work hard, and everyone who I know who does has been rewarded with success.

Not me. I know a lot of hard workers who don't have squat. And all of the really wealthy people I know have had a combination of intelligence and luck, but hard work wasn't a major factor in their success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm still ruminating over the discrimination toward white middle class males issue, but meanwhile, can somewhere throw out some numbers on welfare amounts/types/recipients (and a reference please)?

I don

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not me. I know a lot of hard workers who don't have squat. And all of the really wealthy people I know have had a combination of intelligence and luck, but hard work wasn't a major factor in their success.

oh good grief.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Speak for yourself, no one has given me a damn thing, and there are vast majorities of wealthy people that worked their butts off to get it. Luck is not a factor, unless you hit the lottery.

I think luck is always a factor. Both of us (I assume) were lucky to be born in the US. I was lucky to be born with genes for good health and intelligence. I was lucky to be born into a family that could afford to buy books for me to read when I was a child. I was lucky to have a gift for the sort of problem solving required for computer programming at the precise time that computer programming was a valued skill. You can't see any good fortune in your success?

As for hard work, most wealthy people in the world are born wealthy. Some of them may work "hard", but their hard work isn't responsible for their wealth, and they usually have the freedom to pick some sort of work they enjoy. And, in my experience, those not born to wealth who became wealthy happened to be in the right place at the right time. They had the intelligence to take advantage of opportunities, but that rarely required a great deal of effort on their part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you were SO pathetic to not even be able to go to school under one of these programs, I have news for you. You are a DUMB.

How can a person be"a DUMB"? When you refer to a person, you want to use a noun, not an adjective. Gee, did you go to school under one of "those programs"? :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think luck is always a factor. Both of us (I assume) were lucky to be born in the US. I was lucky to be born with genes for good health and intelligence. I was lucky to be born into a family that could afford to buy books for me to read when I was a child. I was lucky to have a gift for the sort of problem solving required for computer programming at the precise time that computer programming was a valued skill. You can't see any good fortune in your success?

As for hard work, most wealthy people in the world are born wealthy. Some of them may work "hard", but their hard work isn't responsible for their wealth, and they usually have the freedom to pick some sort of work they enjoy. And, in my experience, those not born to wealth who became wealthy happened to be in the right place at the right time. They had the intelligence to take advantage of opportunities, but that rarely required a great deal of effort on their part.

By your reasoning, its lucky you were born at all, that there was oxygen on earth to breath, that you have not died every single day up until now....

There is always the opportunity to make money - you just have to be smart enough to recognize that opportunity when you see it. There is some degree of luck in everything one does, but to say that a person is either born rich, or got lucky greatly detracts from the hard work of those who created something from nothing. There is a saying, and I cant quite remember it perfectly, but its something to the effect of "Success - is when hard work meets planning"

What do you have to back up that statement that most people are born wealthy? I don't believe that all....what is your definition of wealthy? I may not even fall into that category...There are some people, predominately on the east coast that are born wealthy - but I do not think most people who are wealthy were born that way at all.

I would venture to say that most wealthy people were not born wealthy, and that most people who are not wealthy, are not because they do not manage money correctly. I see tons of "poor" people driving escalades, or other nice cars with brand new custom wheels....I see them drive up in their fancy $40,000 car to get welfare checks, and food stamps. Something is wrong with that picture.

We have become a society of now now now...we cant wait at all for anything. If you cant pay cash - you charge it, and then slowly pay it off, or dont at all. Wealth is built by saving and spending wisely. If you cant pay cash for it, you cant afford it (home excluded) if that means you dont have what you want that very second, too bad - keep working. What is wealthy is drastically different now than it used to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think luck is always a factor. Both of us (I assume) were lucky to be born in the US. I was lucky to be born with genes for good health and intelligence. I was lucky to be born into a family that could afford to buy books for me to read when I was a child. I was lucky to have a gift for the sort of problem solving required for computer programming at the precise time that computer programming was a valued skill. You can't see any good fortune in your success?

As for hard work, most wealthy people in the world are born wealthy. Some of them may work "hard", but their hard work isn't responsible for their wealth, and they usually have the freedom to pick some sort of work they enjoy. And, in my experience, those not born to wealth who became wealthy happened to be in the right place at the right time. They had the intelligence to take advantage of opportunities, but that rarely required a great deal of effort on their part.

Luck is not a factor in me being born in the US. My Great Great Great Grandfather Samuel F. "Gransir" Barnes came to the North Carolina Colony in 1755, at 20 years old, from the caves in the Highlands of Scotland, after his family lost everything in the Battle of Inverkeithing, and was forced to the highlands and live in mud huts and caves, and die off slowly due to influenza, fever and plague. Gransir took a job on a sailing vessel in return for his passage to the colonies. Gransir toiled on a sailing ship for several months to get me here, I don't call that luck. He worked in the tobacco fields and learned the Dairy business as a sharecropper. He loaded up his family, (Nine Boys and their family in wagons and came to Texas in 1833 from Iredell County NC, by the lure tales by James F. Perry of the Spanish land grants of the Austin Colonies, where he was heading back to. He had come out to Iredell County to trade for dairy cows, of which Iredell County was plentiful with. Gransir traded James Perry 8 cows of the 16 he owned to take him in his family to Texas, in search of all this free land spoke of. Traded half his wealth to trudge 1200 miles to settle in Brazos County Texas at 98 years old, in a wagon pulled by mules. Not knowing what was waiting for him on the other end, and not even knowing if he'd actually live to see it. He lived to be 106 by chance and is buried in the Boonville Cemetary, next to his wife, that joined him 3 years later. All nine of his sons were granted land grants, (1 section of land) in return for their service in the Texas Army. Three sons joined a Ranger Company, the rest served in the regular Militia. My Great Great Grandfather may have been lucky no to have been killed in the Battle of the Sabine, when he was shot in the back, and since he carried a horseshoeing hammer in his ruck, the 50 caliber ball spared him, and only left him with the definite impression of a farrier's hammer on his lower left lumbar region. But I really don't think that had any involvement in gaining any wealth by luck. After the Independence of Texas, all the brothers returned to Brazos county, where they established the only business they knew, the dairy business. Two Brothers decided to continue Rangering, and the rest along with their kids established the Barnes Creamery, which to this day still operated on Dilly Shaw Tap Road. No luck, just hard work and determination. If you have read my blog, it will explain that I left that dairy at 16 to find my own way.....and as Paul Harvey would say....."that's the rest of the story." No luck involved, just a lot of hard work. Now I can sit around and discuss frivolous crap with some people who have no clue, and some that do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Motivation moves a country forward. Trying to level the playing field with increasing taxes on the "worker bees" and elevating the less than productive through special programs and hand-outs is a huge step backwards. They won't learn anything from it and we'll end up right back to what started this mess all over again. And strangley this theory is highly supported these days, perhaps not by you, but it is.

We are in violent agreement.

That's a good phrase and makes me realize what I didn't do a good job of articulating, which is that the past 40 years, it really was GDP and the velocity of capital moving this country forward. The more creative the accounting is, the less motivation and work you need to keep moving forward. You're essentially along for the ride, until the bubble bursts.

I think what we are getting at is it seems wealth hasn't been built upon tangible goods. For the past two generations wealth was created via labor, goods, manufacture. Producing things that were merchantable. Physical stuff of an enumerable value.

The growth of the 'finance' industry in last 30 years has been dramatic. It was based on making money off of other people, who were making money off of other people, who were earning money by creating the tangible labor and goods. I don't have a lot of grief about that sector collapsing. I wish we'd let it go away, rather than continue to prop it up via tax monies extrated (once again) from those creating the tangible value. The producers of this country are getting soaked by the looters.

Edited by Gooch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We are in violent agreement.

I think what we are getting at is it seems wealth hasn't been built upon tangible goods. For the past two generations wealth was created via labor, goods, manufacture. Producing things that were merchantable. Physical stuff of an enumerable value.

The growth of the 'finance' industry in last 30 years has been dramatic. It was based on making money off of other people, who were making money off of other people, who were earning money by creating the tangible labor and goods. I don't have a lot of grief about that sector collapsing. I wish we'd let it go away, rather than continue to prop it up via tax monies extrated (once again) from those creating the tangible value. The producers of this country are getting soaked by the looters.

Extremely well spoken comment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I guess I'm even luckier than I thought I was. All the other well-off folks are busting their humps and here I am just gliding through life. Thanks for the perspective, and keep on truckin'!

Edited by memebag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're not alone, Meme.

I was lucky to be born into a wealthy family. I was lucky to have parents that paid for my private school. I was lucky to not have to worry about government loans for college or worse, private loans. I was lucky to not have to work in college, although I chose to. I was lucky to be hired out of college by a family friend without a formal interview. In fact, I don't even think I had a proper resume.

That said, I was also LUCKY to have been raised by a family that taught me that I was blessed with these things and that I had a responsibility to do good things because so few people had the advantages I had.

Trust me, most of the folks I went to prep school with think they worked hard for all they achieved but most of them have NO IDEA what true hard work is... I mean, they were gifted cars at 16. College was a given and cost wasn't a consideration. Regular dorms were passed over for digs like Hardin House or Frat Row where fees were gladly paid by the parents who often lived in the same places. There's nothing wrong with these things but it is wrong to talk about "how hard you worked" to get where you did when you came from an enviroment where someone else's mother cleaned your house, someone else's father cut your grass, someone's else's grandfather took care of your pool, and someone else's child opened a slot for you a HBS because they couldn't afford it but your parents could.

To me, true hard work is the single mother working an 8 hour shift at Subway and then the graveyard shift at a parking garage in the TMC. She gets home just in time to get her kids off to school before she gets to sleep for a few hours before her shift starts again in a few hours. At the end of the month, she often doesn't have enough money to pay for food because her food stamps have been slashed because she makes $25 too much per month to get what she truly needs.

It pisses me off to no end when I hear white guys bitching about handouts to the poor. Most of you have NO IDEA what it means to be poor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're not alone, Meme.

I was lucky to be born into a wealthy family. I was lucky to have parents that paid for my private school. I was lucky to not have to worry about government loans for college or worse, private loans. I was lucky to not have to work in college, although I chose to. I was lucky to be hired out of college by a family friend without a formal interview. In fact, I don't even think I had a proper resume.

That said, I was also LUCKY to have been raised by a family that taught me that I was blessed with these things and that I had a responsibility to do good things because so few people had the advantages I had.

Trust me, most of the folks I went to prep school with think they worked hard for all they achieved but most of them have NO IDEA what true hard work is... I mean, they were gifted cars at 16. College was a given and cost wasn't a consideration. Regular dorms were passed over for digs like Hardin House or Frat Row where fees were gladly paid by the parents who often lived in the same places. There's nothing wrong with these things but it is wrong to talk about "how hard you worked" to get where you did when you came from an enviroment where someone else's mother cleaned your house, someone else's father cut your grass, someone's else's grandfather took care of your pool, and someone else's child opened a slot for you a HBS because they couldn't afford it but your parents could.

To me, true hard work is the single mother working an 8 hour shift at Subway and then the graveyard shift at a parking garage in the TMC. She gets home just in time to get her kids off to school before she gets to sleep for a few hours before her shift starts again in a few hours. At the end of the month, she often doesn't have enough money to pay for food because her food stamps have been slashed because she makes $25 too much per month to get what she truly needs.

It pisses me off to no end when I hear white guys bitching about handouts to the poor. Most of you have NO IDEA what it means to be poor.

Thanks KA, for saying what I was thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It pisses me off to no end when I hear white guys bitching about handouts to the poor. Most of you have NO IDEA what it means to be poor.

Here's the bottom line about capitalists: they work hard, take personal risks, and innovate habitually only because they're too lazy to be poor. When society takes away the nasty things that come from being poor, a great many people stop being driven to avoid being poor. I'm one of them. Given the opportunity, I'd gladly sit on my ass every day spending your wealthy family's wealth on fast food, hard liquor, and computer games. And when I ended up in the hospital with heart disease resulting from morbid obesity, I'd gladly pass along the bill to you...but only if you're that concerned about remedying the plight of the poor. ...of course...if you don't care about the plight of the poor, then I guess I need to find a job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's the bottom line about capitalists: they work hard, take personal risks, and innovate habitually only because they're too lazy to be poor. When society takes away the nasty things that come from being poor, a great many people stop being driven to avoid being poor. I'm one of them. Given the opportunity, I'd gladly sit on my ass every day spending your wealthy family's wealth on fast food, hard liquor, and computer games. And when I ended up in the hospital with heart disease resulting from morbid obesity, I'd gladly pass along the bill to you...but only if you're that concerned about remedying the plight of the poor. ...of course...if you don't care about the plight of the poor, then I guess I need to find a job.

Jesus, Niche, since when did you become a bad ad-copy writer? 'Innovate habitually'? Take personal risks?

Exactly how much of your flesh did you sign over to get a loan to buy an undervalued property? I've bought a few pieces of dirt and concrete and I never once felt a sense of danger. I guess risk has a new meaning these days.

The printing press was innovation. Harnessing electricity was innovation. We're just sucking up the sloppy seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jesus, Niche, since when did you become a bad ad-copy writer? 'Innovate habitually'? Take personal risks?

Exactly how much of your flesh did you sign over to get a loan to buy an undervalued property? I've bought a few pieces of dirt and concrete and I never once felt a sense of danger. I guess risk has a new meaning these days.

The printing press was innovation. Harnessing electricity was innovation. We're just sucking up the sloppy seconds.

Neither the firm that I got laid off from or the firm that I've created and own are ever going to get bailed out by the federal government on a regular basis; my endeavors aren't large enough not to fail and when business is bad, I suffer directly as a consequence of it--ahem--unlike some people who apparently have little need to appreciate the realities of entrepreneurship.

I'll share with you at our next HAIF happy hour what are some of the specific innovations and risks that I've had to tackle, but the short of it is that I'm dealing with a finicky customer and an extremely risky supply chain...and I'm honestly amazed that I was able to get financing lined up. I'm not sure that I would've been so forgiving of me had I been in the lenders' shoes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think crunch was talking about you specifically, so much as your description of capitalists as some sort of super action heroes. If you promise to show up at the next HAIF happy hour with a red cape and a C on your chest I promise to let you regale me with true stories of action packed entrenuership. I promise not to even compare my 15 years of entreprenuership to your 6 months. And, if you bring Marksmu with you, I won't even point out that he has never even been an entreprenuer. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think crunch was talking about you specifically, so much as your description of capitalists as some sort of super action heroes. If you promise to show up at the next HAIF happy hour with a red cape and a C on your chest I promise to let you regale me with true stories of action packed entrenuership. I promise not to even compare my 15 years of entreprenuership to your 6 months. And, if you bring Marksmu with you, I won't even point out that he has never even been an entreprenuer. ;)

No, crunch used the pronoun "you" twice. Some of the comments were general statements, but clearly others were directed at me.

I'm not sure that I'd ever describe capitalists as heroes. They're anti-heroes if anything, far too lazy, selfish and hedonistic to be bothered with the rigors of poverty...or even a budget-conscious middle-class lifestyle...if they can help it. It doesn't mean that they aren't useful.

You're most welcome to share your vast experience from the entrepreneurial trenches. War stories are always fun, and I don't care that I'm green and you're salty; all entrepreneurs start from somewhere, the important thing is Day 1. Let's just hope you can pronounce the word "entrepreneurship" better than you spell it. ;) As for Marksmu, well how about I host the happy hour in about another two or three weeks and I'll just dis-invite him for the both of us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, crunch used the pronoun "you" twice. Some of the comments were general statements, but clearly others were directed at me.

I'm not sure that I'd ever describe capitalists as heroes. They're anti-heroes if anything, far too lazy, selfish and hedonistic to be bothered with the rigors of poverty...or even a budget-conscious middle-class lifestyle...if they can help it. It doesn't mean that they aren't useful.

You're most welcome to share your vast experience from the entrepreneurial trenches. War stories are always fun, and I don't care that I'm green and you're salty; all entrepreneurs start from somewhere, the important thing is Day 1. Let's just hope you can pronounce the word "entrepreneurship" better than you spell it. ;) As for Marksmu, well how about I host the happy hour in about another two or three weeks and I'll just dis-invite him for the both of us?

Now thats not very nice guys...I am not personally disgusted by anyone - just their politics and beliefs, I can easily separate politics from my personal life. My wife hates politics, and my sister in law worships, the Obama, Reid, Pelosi crowd I so despise....Though if your happy hours, were really "happy hours" I doubt the hours would work for me anyways, so you wont have to worry too much about me coming to them even if they were wildly advertised. And you are correct I have never been a true entrepreneur. I have no business of my own, yet. I will. I am slowly building my future business, but it will be a sideline business - not my primary source of income, so I dont even know if that counts in your heads. I will not get financing, I am saving till I can afford it outright. But I also dont know if it counts to rent houses, cause I do that on the side too flip/rent - and its been pretty lucrative for me, especially since people stopped buying houses as fast. I have all of my rental properties rented, and I didnt even have to advertise them...people came up to me, while I was walking through them after seeing moving vans. :)

And to the koolaid drinker and sarahiki - Wa wa wa. I dont feel sorry for those who dont get out there and make it on their own. Niche actually said it quite well "capitalists: they work hard, take personal risks, and innovate habitually" No offense for using your words.......That mom working at the parking lot, and the subway is never going "make it" because those are jobs that dont go anywhere. She should find a better one. If she cant, she should take steps to make it so that she can.

If she wasnt able to support a family, she should not have had one. Believe me, my wife and I would have loved to have had kids 3 years ago - but we couldnt afford it. Now that we can, its more difficult. If that isnt a sacrifice, I dont know what is.

And for the koolaid drinker - nobody but me, and everyone in my family has ever mowed our grass, cleaned our pool, or done our laundry. So as much as you would love to lump me in with the RICH who have somone for everything....I am far too cheap to pay anyone to do the things that I can do myself. its why I have money - I dont piss money away on the things i can do myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'll share with you at our next HAIF happy hour what are some of the specific innovations and risks that I've had to tackle, but the short of it is that I'm dealing with a finicky customer and an extremely risky supply chain...and I'm honestly amazed that I was able to get financing lined up. I'm not sure that I would've been so forgiving of me had I been in the lenders' shoes.

You know I'm all ears, Niche!

I was making a point generally, but also poking you a little. It is becasue I loathe how business people use the words 'innovation' and 'risk'. It is an abuse of language IMO. But people care less and less about language, because words are too long to text efficiently, and language can't be collateralized.

You're right--I'm not cut out to be an entrepenuer. But I enjoy what I do for a living, which is why I do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You know I'm all ears, Niche!

I was making a point generally, but also poking you a little. It is becasue I loathe how business people use the words 'innovation' and 'risk'. It is an abuse of language IMO. But people care less and less about language, because words are too long to text efficiently, and language can't be collateralized.

You're right--I'm not cut out to be an entrepenuer. But I enjoy what I do for a living, which is why I do it.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the problem with "innovation" or "risk".

Innovation occurs all the time, usually very subtly. It can be a process as mundane as surveying a customer base to determine how your firm can most effectively improve its products to drawing up a whole marketing plan for one of the world's largest firms. Innovation is rarely the core business of a firm, and even in cases where it is (i.e. technology, pharma, etc.) it's rarely something that will cause as much of a seed change as would the printing press, but it is one of those processes that firms do in order to be competitive and ultimately to make more money. And all these little things do make a difference. Perhaps you've just read too much into it, but innovation is most frequently just a beneficial byproduct of capitalism, raising the bar in microscopic increments as to what are considered quality goods and services.

As for Risk, well there's a whole industry whose mission is Risk Management! That's what it is called, that is what they do. They indemnify households and firms of their risk at some set price; they manage risk. Non-insurance firms also have risk to manage. I have to carefully balance business risks and financial risks, myself. Real estate is risky enough without acting as your own architect and contractor! This should all be pretty easy to understand. I don't understand why "risk" needs to be removed from the lexicon.

It strikes me that the real problem is that people read too much into these words and assign them meanings that aren't appropriate. Red read into the words and saw some kind of caped superhero, the very antithesis of the sort of person I was discussing. You saw unconvincing ad copy, presumably as though I were just propagandizing. It seems like you two attach some kind of aspirational tag to capitalism. I'm only trying to explain that capitalists are numerous and lazy, and provided you don't provide them with perverse incentives such as would shut them down, they're useful to have around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote name='Marksmu' date='Friday, March 6th, 2009 @ 9:59am' post='310870'

And to the koolaid drinker and sarahiki - Wa wa wa. I dont feel sorry for those who dont get out there and make it on their own. Niche actually said it quite well "capitalists: they work hard, take personal risks, and innovate habitually" No offense for using your words.......That mom working at the parking lot, and the subway is never going "make it" because those are jobs that dont go anywhere. She should find a better one. If she cant, she should take steps to make it so that she can.

If she wasnt able to support a family, she should not have had one. Believe me, my wife and I would have loved to have had kids 3 years ago - but we couldnt afford it. Now that we can, its more difficult. If that isnt a sacrifice, I dont know what is.

I have yet to meet an SMU grad who doesn't think they way you do, and people call Aggies sheep?

Does just living near the Hilltop make one a complete tool with absolutely zero ability to demonstrate empathy?

I have a feeling that you were the leader of the infamous "affirmative action" bakesale at SMU a few years ago. It's all adding up.

Now please excuse me as I go drink more tasty Koolaid. It sure is better than the sour milk you seem to favor!

Edited by KinkaidAlum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Marksmu' date='Friday, March 6th, 2009 @ 9:59am' post='310870'

And to the koolaid drinker and sarahiki - Wa wa wa. I dont feel sorry for those who dont get out there and make it on their own. Niche actually said it quite well "capitalists: they work hard, take personal risks, and innovate habitually" No offense for using your words.......That mom working at the parking lot, and the subway is never going "make it" because those are jobs that dont go anywhere. She should find a better one. If she cant, she should take steps to make it so that she can.

If she wasnt able to support a family, she should not have had one. Believe me, my wife and I would have loved to have had kids 3 years ago - but we couldnt afford it. Now that we can, its more difficult. If that isnt a sacrifice, I dont know what is.

I have yet to meet an SMU grad who doesn't think they way you do, and people call Aggies sheep?

Does just living near the Hilltop make one a complete tool with absolutely zero ability to demonstrate empathy?

I have a feeling that you were the leader of the infamous "affirmative action" bakesale at SMU a few years ago. It's all adding up.

Now please excuse me as I go drink more tasty Koolaid. It sure is better than the sour milk you seem to favor!

Empathy must be earned, its not dolled out freely. I took zero interest in politics of any kind during college as well. In fact, Im not even aware of the affirmative action bake sale to which you have referred. Unless you have been to SMU, and you have seen the degree to which the Engineering School interacts with the rest of the school - your opinion of the school and its students are nothing more than worthless generalizations, much like the generalizations of A&M. If you think busting your hump at a Subway and a parking lot are ways to improve your life for your family you are free to believe that. I dont. Someone has to do those jobs - So I am glad that she is doing them but at the same time I do not feel like I should be the one responsible for supporting her while she continues to make bad decisions - such as more children so that she can get back on the wellfare that she just lost becuase she made that $25 to much.

I am an extremely generous person - giving to many groups/charities, etc - but not a dime to the groups that dont support my personal system of beliefs. Enjoy your koolaid - it may be the last time you can afford it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Your generalizations about welfare recipients don't help anything. Of course there are ones who take advantage of it and use it beyond its intent, but those bad apples are in every sector (hello current economy).

Like Mr. Barnes mentioned earlier, welfare programs make up less than ten percent of the taxes we pay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It pisses me off to no end when I hear white guys bitching about handouts to the poor. Most of you have NO IDEA what it means to be poor.

Hey I'm a white guy and I grew up poor, and I may still be there, but I don't see how race has nything to do with it. I just resent the statement because I do know what hard work is and I have been in the ditches with the mexicans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am an extremely generous person - giving to many groups/charities, etc - but not a dime to the groups that dont support my personal system of beliefs.

See, now this statement aligns well with my point of view. If KinkaidAlum feels some moral obligation to help out a Subway worker, more power to him. But when he tries to force or coerce his morality upon you by political means, that's theft. He neither acknowledges that he could be wrong or allows for dissent; if you refused to comply with such a coercion, he would have the IRS liquidate your assets to help people like this Subway worker. He believes in moral absolutes, is unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints founded in reason or logic, dismissing them as lacking empathy, and condescendingly looks down upon the very same kind of people as he is who happen to have opposing viewpoints. He's really not that different from the right-wing religious zealots that he mocks...or even a fundie Muslim jihadist.

Charity is when you give to a cause of your own free volition and without expecting any kind of material recompense for your deed. Coercion is the same thing, but when your hand is forced by a moral absolutist. Coercion negates charity. I support charity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
See, now this statement aligns well with my point of view. If KinkaidAlum feels some moral obligation to help out a Subway worker, more power to him. But when he tries to force or coerce his morality upon you by political means, that's theft. He neither acknowledges that he could be wrong or allows for dissent; if you refused to comply with such a coercion, he would have the IRS liquidate your assets to help people like this Subway worker. He believes in moral absolutes, is unwilling to consider alternative viewpoints founded in reason or logic, dismissing them as lacking empathy, and condescendingly looks down upon the very same kind of people as he is who happen to have opposing viewpoints. He's really not that different from the right-wing religious zealots that he mocks...or even a fundie Muslim jihadist.

Charity is when you give to a cause of your own free volition and without expecting any kind of material recompense for your deed. Coercion is the same thing, but when your hand is forced by a moral absolutist. Coercion negates charity. I support charity.

Great Post Niche.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Charity is when you give to a cause of your own free volition and without expecting any kind of material recompense for your deed. Coercion is the same thing, but when your hand is forced by a moral absolutist. Coercion negates charity. I support charity.

That's a great point. If people would spend their political motivations on increasing charitable donations we could do a lot of good in the private sector. Examples could include The Lance Armstrong Foundation, The Shriner's Hospital system, St.Jude's Medical center, MDA, pop-up off the top of my head. Why not expand those efforts instead of raising taxes? Instead of a culture of confiscation why not try to build a culture of donation? Instead, we are trying to force it by the tax law - at the point of a gun if you will. That is no different that robbery.

Even if one believes that government is the right way to accomplish charity, that can be done too without penalizing anyone. I've never understood the wealthy that say taxes should be higher. What are they waiting for? The treasury will take a check. They acutally have instructions on how to make a donation on their website.

There are many ways to make the world a better place without reliance on government. If only we had some way to incentivize donations. Oh wait we do, it's called itemized tax deductions on donations. Surprisingly (or not) the Obama adminstration is proposing to eliminate this. A mistake in my opinion.

Edited by Gooch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's a great point. If people would spend their political motivations on increasing charitable donations we could do a lot of good in the private sector. Examples could include The Lance Armstrong Foundation, The Shriner's Hospital system, St.Jude's Medical center, MDA, pop-up off the top of my head. Why not expand those efforts instead of raising taxes? Instead of a culture of confiscation why not try to build a culture of donation? Instead, we are trying to force it by the tax law - at the point of a gun if you will. That is no different that robbery.

Even if one believes that government is the right way to accomplish charity, that can be done too without penalizing anyone. I've never understood the wealthy that say taxes should be higher. What are they waiting for? The treasury will take a check. They acutally have instructions on how to make a donation on their website.

There are many ways to make the world a better place without reliance on government. If only we had some way to incentivize donations. Oh wait we do, it's called itemized tax deductions on donations. Surprisingly (or not) the Obama adminstration is proposing to eliminate this. A mistake in my opinion.

First - Niche - you said what I was thinking but again, you did it more eloquently. Great Post!

Second - you can pretty much take almost everything Obama has done so far since he got in office, and it was a bad idea in my opinion. I dont know everything he has done, but the things I have gotten wind of have all been wrong in my opinion. I actually do not know of ONE SINGLE THING that he has done that I agreed with him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you think empathy has to be earned, then you don't even understand the basic concept.

I also find it laughable that The Niche, MarkfromSMU and Katie "I'm too good for The Woodlands" are lecturing others on charitable giving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you think empathy has to be earned, then you don't even understand the basic concept.

I also find it laughable that The Niche, MarkfromSMU and Katie "I'm too good for The Woodlands" are lecturing others on charitable giving.

I guess you know so much about me that laughing came easy for you.

Empathy is defined as: identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity.

I understand exactly WHAT made them poor at a young age, WHAT keeps them poor at their current age, and the reasons WHY they will remain poor. So I can fully identify with and understand their situation. The problem is that many of the truly poor are unable to defer what they want in order to achieve what they need.

So I stand by my statement - you must prove to me a reason why I should feel sorry for you, because I have what you do not. And 99 times out of 100 I can stare you right into the eyes and tell you why you dont have what I do, and I can also guarantee you that it was not because I was given it. So you can take your feelings of guilt of being born rich, and sent to private school, and keep them - because I dont need them. I work, I donate time and money, and I oppose higher taxes on those who are doing those things. I feel no obligation to pay even more in taxes to help those who are unwilling to help themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who decided that YOU get to define how we decide to govern?

Last time I checked, nearly EIGHT MILLION more folks decided it was time for a new direction. Tough titties if you don't like it because that is how a democracy works. You'll get your chance to voice your frustrations at midterm elections. Until then, you'll just have to deal with sounding like another in a long line of woe-is-me middle class whiners.

I suggest you start calling in to talk radio because that audience might be more receptive to your message of "you must prove to me why I should pity you" type of empathy more than most of the good folks at the HAIF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I understand exactly WHAT made them poor at a young age, WHAT keeps them poor at their current age, and the reasons WHY they will remain poor. So I can fully identify with and understand their situation. The problem is that many of the truly poor are unable to defer what they want in order to achieve what they need.

Generalizations again. Your understanding of a certain situation applies to only those certain situations. What exactly is the situation, and how do you know that it applies across the board? What is this need and deferment of "what" "they" need?

I guess you know so much about me that laughing came easy for you.

Maybe about as much as you know about the poor people you write of..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Last time I checked, nearly EIGHT MILLION more folks decided it was time for a new direction. Tough titties if you don't like it because that is how a democracy works. You'll get your chance to voice your frustrations at midterm elections. Until then, you'll just have to deal with sounding like another in a long line of woe-is-me middle class whiners.

So...might makes right, eh? And basically you're saying that his opinions don't matter on the basis of that he isn't in charge. And you can just leave it at that, without offering any kind of reasoned defense of your position...only because you don't have to.

History is rife with examples where hubris leads to a downfall. One would hope that you'd be more cognizant of it, having joyously witnessed the recent consequences of hubris within many elements of your hated nemesis, the Republican Party.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Who decided that YOU get to define how we decide to govern?

Last time I checked, nearly EIGHT MILLION more folks decided it was time for a new direction. Tough titties if you don't like it because that is how a democracy works. You'll get your chance to voice your frustrations at midterm elections. Until then, you'll just have to deal with sounding like another in a long line of woe-is-me middle class whiners.

I suggest you start calling in to talk radio because that audience might be more receptive to your message of "you must prove to me why I should pity you" type of empathy more than most of the good folks at the HAIF.

Never said Im governing, but Im sure not going to take it without voicing my disgust at the shear STUPIDITY of a HUGE percentage of those voting for Obama. Obama didnt win because he was the better candidate, he won because the republicans put forth a terrible canidate. The majority of America is against illegal immigration and the republicans put forth the worst possible canidate.

Its easy to get 8 million more people to vote for you too - all you have to do is exactly what Obama did speak well and Promise to take from those who have, and give it to them for Free. I recall quite a few people on TV estatic about Obama's win. " I wont have to worry about paying my bills or filling up my gas tank" They showed the true intellegience of his voter base.

It doesnt matter anyway - He will be out in 4 years, and its going to be someone elses job to clean up the terrible mess he created. By the time he has finsihed creating another depression people will be looking for anyone but him. Everyone complained about Bush - but Obama has already in 2 short months more than quadrupled the national debt since Bush left. Cant wait to see what 4 years of this idiot looks like.

Lets see whose votes Obama won. 1) flat out poor uneducated people 2) welfare recipients 3) illegal immigrants 4) union members, 5) government workers 6) academia 7) young 18-25 people who do not ear much money yet 8) 9) Personal Injury Lawyers 11) very small number of people who earn money but truely care more about others than themselves.

Lets see who voted Mccain 1) Small business owners 2) entrepenuers 3) farmers & ranchers 4) white collar workers with graduate degrees with the exception of most attorneys 5) business people 6) engineers, 7) doctors 8) land owners 9) basically anyone with a drive to succeed and not wait for the government to fix it.

HMMMMMMM - if Im betting on the more productive group - Im betting on the second group.

Obama does nothing more than promise to take from those who work and earn it and give it to those who whine that they dont have it....NOT hard to earn votes that way. I can also tell you which group of voters tend to not abuse drugs, or have criminal records, and it aint Obama's group.

Honestly a person ought not to get to vote at all if they pay no taxes and are on welfare. If you do not contribute you should not have a voice.

Edited by Marksmu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you think empathy has to be earned, then you don't even understand the basic concept.

I also find it laughable that The Niche, MarkfromSMU and Katie "I'm too good for The Woodlands" are lecturing others on charitable giving.

And yet, I never got a single reply on my "firefighter appreciation" thread from anyone want to do the same thing, which is particularly interesting since it is possible that I am one of the "poorer" members of this system.

I am not really going to post on Mark's posts, i have put up too much eneregy in a post along thses lines against Vines several months ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the record, I have lots and lots of disagreements with Mark's logic. I could go on for pages. But I do appreciate his attempt. By taking up an undefended position of moral absolutism, Kinkaid is just being philosophically lazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not really going to post on Mark's posts, i have put up too much eneregy in a post along thses lines against Vines several months ago.

Thanks for the memory jog - I felt a slight correlation to another member but I couldn't place it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for the memory jog - I felt a slight correlation to another member but I couldn't place it

I miss Vines. He has this utterly bizarre stream of consciousness thing going on that I liked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And yet, I never got a single reply on my "firefighter appreciation" thread from anyone want to do the same thing, which is particularly interesting since it is possible that I am one of the "poorer" members of this system.

I am not really going to post on Mark's posts, i have put up too much eneregy in a post along thses lines against Vines several months ago.

Currently too poor to be as appreciative as you. The idea was good though.. maybe I'll bake a uberload of cookies instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...