Harrisburg Underpass

[Ianbian]

I also posted this in Traffic and Transportation, because I wanted to reach as many interested people as possible, and I couldn't decide which category would be more appropriate.

[musicman]

who supplied the information for the flyer? there appear to be a few misnomers in the text.

[Ianbian]

who supplied the information for the flyer? there appear to be a few misnomers in the text.

I put together the flyer with the help of the East End Chamber of Commerce. I'm working on a revised copy with more information -- I was just anxious to get something out there for people to start looking at. Let me know of any mistakes and I'll fix them.

[TheNiche]

I also posted this in Traffic and Transportation, because I wanted to reach as many interested people as possible, and I couldn't decide which category would be more appropriate.

I'm all for an underpass, especially if it can reduce property takings either by being shorter or by being narrower. The kind of development that is already along Harrisburg in that section (and especially east of the tracks) happens to be very supportive of pedestrian use on account of that it comes right up to the street, and this physical layout is synergistic with light rail. Converting over a quarter mile of that to a pedestrian dead zone is counterproductive to the function of light rail.

Now, having said that, I would urge the Harrisburg Merchants Association to back off on some of the less realistic claims. The decision makers aren't stupid and if you make idiotic claims premised upon the assumption that they are dumb, they can only possibly conclude that either you don't respect and are intentionally misleading them or that the Merchants Association is itself pretty dumb. Claims that I dispute as unrealistic are the following:

*Harrisburg is not going to be like Houston's version of the Riverwalk. Not ever. There are parts of the East End that actually have potential as such, but they are actually near bodies of water. A better comparison is probably to South Congress in Austin.

*Anybody can make the claim that something is potentially less expensive. There's always the potential for a botched job in one case and a textbook success in the other. But that doesn't carry a lot of weight. What matters is what is likely to be less expensive. And trenching is likely to be more expensive; it almost always is, and especially when existing underground utilities have to not only be replaced but reconfigured to go around the big new hole in the ground.

*Homelessness in this area doesn't appear to be a huge deal right now, and for instance, I can't recall having seen any homeless in the vicinity of the Navigation overpass. I only see beggars (and they aren't necessarily homeless) in the East End along freeway overpasses where traffic at intersections is heavy and there are long lines of sight. I've been in quite a few abandoned buildings in the East End, too, and have never encountered homeless there either. This just isn't much of an issue.

*There is a lot of anti-METRO sentiment out there; tap into it. They're way behind schedule, aren't doing what they've said they will, held a groundbreaking without all that much ground having been subsequently broken, and had started construction on the line without even having completed engineering drawings, specifications, or established how much land would need to be taken along parts of it (namely the parts in question in this discussion). That they could gain approval from the City to break ground on a line before even having presented a full set of plans to the public is utterly ridiculous. You could go on about the financial mess that their leadership have got them in, but the above should be presented as your primary concern.

*As you present these concerns, present them in the context of the neighborhood and especially as to how you believe that an underpass would add to the functionality of light rail. A lot of comments at prior neighborhood meetings signal that many people are still bitter about that; the time for bitterness is over. Such comments only draw rolled eyes and whoever is talking loses credibility. A group explaining how this specific issue, the proposed overpass, adversely affects them has credibility if they can stay on topic and not waste time with tangents and closed issues. But they're still just perceived as one voice, and a weak one. If that group can also effectively explain not only how they are adversely affected, but how an underpass improves the effectiveness of METRO's infrastructure or how the City can benefit from higher long-term tax valuations, THAT makes you both credible and powerful. That makes it a broader issue that affects all voters.

*There is a (small) element out there that wants the ROW takings to be large through old downtown Magnolia Park. They want as many buildings demolished as possible because they believe it'll improve appearances by clearing out all the businesses oriented towards poor customers and will usher in a new wave of shiny new development. The way to bring them over is to explain how an underpass will reduce noise pollution, look nicer, increase the tax valuation of nearby land and improvements, and expand the coffers of the Greater East End Management District, which in turn is better equipped to improve the area's appearance. This is an example of a line of argument where multiple constituencies can be unified by mutual self-interest and exert powerful leverage on local politicians of all stripes.

I've spent a fair bit of time around political and community development consultants and own multiple properties in the general area. If your group can get me a licensed copy of MapInfo software, I'll put together some slick maps and graphics and can give you guys a parcel-by-parcel analysis of long-term tax revenue implications posed by noise and visual pollution from the proposed overpass. Aside from the software, I'll do it for free. PM me if you're interested.

[crunchtastic]

I put together the flyer with the help of the East End Chamber of Commerce. I'm working on a revised copy with more information -- I was just anxious to get something out there for people to start looking at. Let me know of any mistakes and I'll fix them.

Did the chamber's rail subcomittee hire you for some PR work?

I'm just curious who is sponsoring the flyer. If it's the Chamber it would nice to see it on their letterhead. There are a few different organizations putting out information (and misinformation) about the Metro plans for the rail line. It's starting to get pretty convoluted, particularly the cost claims being made.

Edit: nevermind I just wasn't reading closely.

Although I think it should be made more clear that this is the position of the Harrisburg Merchant's Assoc.

[musicman]

I put together the flyer with the help of the East End Chamber of Commerce. I'm working on a revised copy with more information -- I was just anxious to get something out there for people to start looking at. Let me know of any mistakes and I'll fix them.

several of your bulleted statements are TBD until an actual design is released. the statements regarding the homeless are not accurate. homeless go where they can find shelter whether that is an underpass or overpass. take a bike ride through the n main underpass sometime and get a whiff of the urine and perhaps meet up with several face to face.

[ricco67]

I put together the flyer with the help of the East End Chamber of Commerce. I'm working on a revised copy with more information -- I was just anxious to get something out there for people to start looking at. Let me know of any mistakes and I'll fix them.

first, welcome to the system.

Wouldn't it give your cause look a bit more legit to make sure these little issues are fixed BEFORE you bring them out in public?

I don't recall if we had the bridge/overpass argument on the Brown line thread, but this will be interesting to follow.

As a former resident of the area, i think they (residents/activists/whatever) are being a bit over sensitive about the whole matter.

One thing you have to say on the overpass v. underpass thing, is that during a flood event, the underpass would be vulnerable and could potentially cause gridlock in the area.

Remember, the railroad would help pay for the construction ONLY if there would no longer be an at grade crossing at that location.

Does your plan for the underpass include an at grade crossing? If so, the city's share of the burden would increase quite a bit.

Also, get ready to hear the roar of whining from the east side once that underpass is flooded and people cant get from one side to another.

[Ianbian]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

For the record, I am not employed by the Chamber of Commerce or Harrisburg Merchants Association. I am a resident of Eastwood who is excited about the possibilities for Harrisburg, and I am volunteering my time to help the neighborhood reach its potential. The East End has been awaiting a "Renaissance" for as long as I can remember, and I'm ready for it.

As for Harrisburg never becoming a Riverwalk, that's fine -- the Riverwalk is too artificial and Disneylike for my taste anyway. But I think there is a lot we can learn from it, such as the utility in creating a pedestrian zone with a lot of activity.

Harrisburg has more homeless than most other part of the East End. This is coming from the existing business owners along Harrisburg who complain about it a lot. This is also from my own experiences -- there are a lot of people who loiter along Harrisburg. I couldn't care less as they've always been nice to me. . .but developers do care. However, I'm going to change to flyer to say "criminal loiterers" (or something else? recommendations?) instead of "homeless people," because I don't want to turn this into a war against the homeless

Generally, underpasses have more upfront costs than overpasses, absolutely true. Whether that outweights the long-term benefits of an underpass is debatable. There are many particulars at this location, however, that could potential bring an underpass more in line with the cost of the bridge. The basic reason is that the bridge would have to be twice as long, requiring that many more materials and right of way takings. Musicman, the differences are drastic enough in this case that I feel confident bullet pointing them even before final designs are released.

Wouldn't it give your cause look a bit more legit to make sure these little issues are fixed BEFORE you bring them out in public?

Yes. I looked for feedback before I started distributing it, and nobody gave me any! I guess you guys are just a lot more critical. . .or maybe just more aware of how to make these kinds of things effective. I'm learning as I go.

[Vertigo58]

Yes. I looked for feedback before I started distributing it, and nobody gave me any! I guess you guys are just a lot more critical. . .or maybe just more aware of how to make these kinds of things effective. I'm learning as I go.

I for one am cheering you on! We need more positive folks that care.

Do keep posting and tell as many of your pals about the Near East End's efforts to bring it back to it's former glory and to join Haif.

Just keep tossing those stones back at the negative posters. Works every time.

Got to be like a Timex watch..."Takes a licking, but keeps on Ticking".

[musicman]

There are many particulars at this location, however, that could potential bring an underpass more in line with the cost of the bridge. The basic reason is that the bridge would have to be twice as long, requiring that many more materials and right of way takings. Musicman, the differences are drastic enough in this case that I feel confident bullet pointing them even before final designs are released.

not too confident if you made statements like this.

Something else to consider: even if an underpass ends up costing more, I believe it would still be worth it.

[Ianbian]

not too confident if you made statements like this.

What? I said I was confident about the bullet points, and I am. The statement about cost refers back to the bullet point about cost, obviously, which talks about potential. There's nothing absolute about that. The best evidence we have suggests an underpass may cost less than what METRO is proposing for the bridge. We have a study from Harris County that looked at this exact same location, and they estimated an underpass at $16 million in 2004 -- half of the cost of METRO's bridge. In my opinion, that's enough evidence to have confidence about the potential of something!

[ricco67]

But you failed to mention if there is going to be an at grade crossing.

If there is an at grade crossing, the costs will jump significantly if the railroad doesn't chip in for the construction.

[crunchtastic]

I for one am cheering you on! We need more positive folks that care.

Do keep posting and tell as many of your pals about the Near East End's efforts to bring it back to it's former glory and to join Haif.

Just keep tossing those stones back at the negative posters. Works every time.

I can assure you that me, Musicman, Niche, Ricco, and others who live in the east end have a strong interest in the rail line and the revitalization of the area. We've attended numerous meetings on the subject. Talked to our council people, etc. Have you?

There is nothing whatsoever negative in questioning someone when they circulate te a doument meant to support a neighborhood political agenda. For the record, I'm in favor of the rail line and the underpass.

If the OP is just a concerned citizen, he needs to make the clear and not tie that document to the East End Chamber or the Harrisburg Merchant's Assoc. If he is doing it for the Eastwood Civic Assoc, that's great, but make it clear. We've got a lot of great cheerleaders on the issue. What we don't have a lot of is new information. Us HAIFers are a tough crowd, I guess. For example, I'm very interested in seeing the cost data that everyone keeps referencing with regard to underpass vs. overpass. It made the rounds on a couple of slides in meetings, but I never saw the full report, or a website, etc. Inquiring minds want to know! They also want to know if there have been any new developments in negotiations between Metro, the city, and UP.

[Ianbian]

But you failed to mention if there is going to be an at grade crossing.

If there is an at grade crossing, the costs will jump significantly if the railroad doesn't chip in for the construction.

Sorry, I missed the question. No, there will be no at-grade crossing. That obviously creates concerns for a major flooding event, but that just necessitates proper attention to building an adequate pump station and related drainage infrastructure. The Fannin underpass at Holcombe does not have a major flooding problem (it has only flooded a handful of times since the construction of the Main Street line). There are many underpasses around Houston that don't have flooding problems; because we're designing this one from scratch, we can make sure this is one of them.

I'm very interested in seeing the cost data that everyone keeps referencing with regard to underpass vs. overpass.

The entire Harris County study is here: http://www.eng.hctx.net/pdf/freight_report.pdf. The detailed cost breakdown for the Harrisburg underpass is in the appendices. An important thing to note about this study is that out of all the grade crossings Harris County looked at (12, I think?), Harrisburg was only one of 3 or 4 that was recommended as an underpass. I asked the engineer in charge of the study why they made that recommendation, and he said that they didn't feel a bridge was appropriate for the level of development and activity in the area. It's the same reason you wouldn't stick a massive overpass in the Medical Center and instead go with an underpass along Fannin. The Medical Center just has louder and more powerful advocates standing up for it.

They also want to know if there have been any new developments in negotiations between Metro, the city, and UP.

Actually, yes. At the METRO CAB meeting at the East End Management District last Thursday, a representative with the Gulf Coast Freight Rail District claimed that UP had told him that they didn't care whether the grade crossing went over or under. They just care that their service is not disrupted. The Harris County estimate includes a shoo-fly bypass track, which is the standard way of maintaining freight service while building an underpass. METRO's reluctance to work with UP has been a major sticking point on this underpass issue; I'm hopeful UP's apparent willingness to play ball will ease METRO's discomfort.

[ricco67]

Since there is no at-grade crossing with the below grade crossing you suggest, what about the (overpass) critics that claim that having a design that would have no crossing feel that it would hurt the various businesses in the area.

Do you think this would silence those people as well?

[crunchtastic]

The entire Harris County study is here: http://www.eng.hctx.net/pdf/freight_report.pdf. The detailed cost breakdown for the Harrisburg underpass is in the appendices. An important thing to note about this study is that out of all the grade crossings Harris County looked at (12, I think?), Harrisburg was only one of 3 or 4 that was recommended as an underpass. I asked the engineer in charge of the study why they made that recommendation, and he said that they didn't feel a bridge was appropriate for the level of development and activity in the area. It's the same reason you wouldn't stick a massive overpass in the Medical Center and instead go with an underpass along Fannin. The Medical Center just has louder and more powerful advocates standing up for it.

Actually, yes. At the METRO CAB meeting at the East End Management District last Thursday, a representative with the Gulf Coast Freight Rail District claimed that UP had told him that they didn't care whether the grade crossing went over or under. They just care that their service is not disrupted. The Harris County estimate includes a shoo-fly bypass track, which is the standard way of maintaining freight service while building an underpass. METRO's reluctance to work with UP has been a major sticking point on this underpass issue; I'm hopeful UP's apparent willingness to play ball will ease METRO's discomfort.

Thx!

[Ianbian]

Since there is no at-grade crossing with the below grade crossing you suggest, what about the (overpass) critics that claim that having a design that would have no crossing feel that it would hurt the various businesses in the area.

Do you think this would silence those people as well?

I'm not sure I understand. Neither option - over or under - includes at-grade crossings, and as far as I know nobody is using the lack of at-grade crossings to argue against/for either option. Instead, both options would offer U-turn loops for access to adjacent properties. Neither grade crossing solution is going to be wonderful for those businesses, but an underpass would impact a whole heck of a lot less of them.

[NenaE]

I have always preferred the asthetics of the underpass over the overpass, anyday, with one exception...Has the issue of flooding been addressed? I hope this proposed underpass can carry water off better than the the old ones I grew up with in the East End. With the rain, it's all about heaviness & length of time. Don't know if any drain can keep up with that.

[musicman]

METRO's reluctance to work with UP has been a major sticking point on this underpass issue; I'm hopeful UP's apparent willingness to play ball will ease METRO's discomfort.

UP has been willing to listen, however METRO hasn't approached them for this project and other projects (hardy yards comes to mind) that require direct communication. earlier last yr, METRO said they didn't have money for the bridge/underpass at the RR crossing and after an uproar COH had to step in to squelch the vocal area residents by offering COH support for a portion of the project. then a few months later METRO recommends another, even longer overpass east of dowling, and they have no problem footing the bill for that one? the project mgmt has issues which need to be addressed and quite frankly, they aren't doing that.

[musicman]

Ianbian

Who is the Harrisburg Merchants Association anyway? I googled it and some stuff from Penn. came up and this HAIF thread did as well. Nothing else.

[crunchtastic]

Like Niche said earlier, Metro's mismanagement issues are really becoming obvious for all to see.

[ricco67]

When Crunch, I, and several people attended the Metro meeting last summer (August?), one of the biggest sticking points was people wouldn't have access to various business unless you go into the "U" turn route.

For some reason, quite a few people were fairly annoyed at this and were very vocal about this (and other issues).

[CHiPs]

I put together the flyer with the help of the East End Chamber of Commerce. I'm working on a revised copy with more information -- I was just anxious to get something out there for people to start looking at. Let me know of any mistakes and I'll fix them.

This is great! I appreciate the information. Glad people in our community care. I'll be sure to voice my opinion.

[Ianbian]

FYI (maybe FEI - for everyone's information?)

I updated the original posting with the revised flyer. I believe the original flyer is still available by clicking on the image, which links to my Google Picasa folder.

And that's the last update, for real. Now take it, be fruitful with it, and multiply it.

[TheNiche]

Say, I had an idea about this overpass or overpass. Why not do both? Elevate the light rail over the freight rail tracks using a single row of pilings located in the median of the road that flare out at the top to support bi-directional trains that are actually traveling over the heads of auto traffic. Auto traffic is provided an underpass, and just looking at aerial imagery on Google Earth, it seems like doing turnaround lanes in a narrower footprint wouldn't impact too much other than some vacant land, parking, and signage.

Cost savings would be easily achieved by way of reduced excavation:

*With more infrastructure being on top of itself, the underpass footprint can be narrower. The ROW takings would also be fewer.

*One of the problems with light rail grade separation is that it requires a very shallow slope, much shallower than for auto traffic. This means that a light rail bridge or underpass has to be longer than a typical auto underpass. By using the underpass for auto traffic only, it reduces the length of the underpass, reducing the amount of soil needing to be excavated.

*And since autos traveling along Harrisburg already must be lower than the overhead electrical systems supplying power to the light rail, shifting those systems to a light rail overpass means that the depth of the underpass can be reduced because it doesn't have to be so deep as to accommodate the overhead equipment, not only reducing the amount of excavation vertically but also reducing the length of the underpass.

[musicman]

And that's the last update, for real. Now take it, be fruitful with it, and multiply it.

it's hard to believe something that is still spreading misinformation. so who is the Harrisburg Merchants Association again?

[Ianbian]

it's hard to believe something that is still spreading misinformation. so who is the Harrisburg Merchants Association again?

Honestly, I don't really know. All I know about them is that Julio del Carpo seems to be at the helm, and he's the architect who built the Marbella banquet hall between 66th and Cesar Chavez. Julio -- and, allegedly, the Harrisburg Merchants Association -- have put together many renderings of what he wants Harrisburg to become, so I just took it that the group had the vision and the resources to transform Harrisburg. Julio hosted Rick Noriega's birthday last Thursday at Marbella, and the mayor was there, and he apparently listened very attentively to what Julio was saying about the bridge's impact on the community. James Rodriguez also seems to care what Julio and the Merchants Association think. Beyond that, I don't know much about them.

By the way, I take exception to your baseless accusations that anyone is spreading misinformation. I have spent months personally researching this grade separation, and I am through and through confident in what's on that flyer. If you'd be willing to get more specific, I would be more than happy to specifically address your concerns.

[musicman]

Honestly, I don't really know. All I know about them is that Julio del Carpo seems to be at the helm, and he's the architect who built the Marbella banquet hall between 66th and Cesar Chavez. Julio -- and, allegedly, the Harrisburg Merchants Association -- have put together many renderings of what he wants Harrisburg to become, so I just took it that the group had the vision and the resources to transform Harrisburg. Julio hosted Rick Noriega's birthday last Thursday at Marbella, and the mayor was there, and he apparently listened very attentively to what Julio was saying about the bridge's impact on the community. James Rodriguez also seems to care what Julio and the Merchants Association think. Beyond that, I don't know much about them.

By the way, I take exception to your baseless accusations that anyone is spreading misinformation. I have spent months personally researching this grade separation, and I am through and through confident in what's on that flyer. If you'd be willing to get more specific, I would be more than happy to specifically address your concerns.

Ahh him. Julio's been doing this for several years now. the last time i went to one of the meetings at marbella, several vocal merchants along harrisburg were definitely not onboard with the proposals offered that evening. lots of talk about getting changing the type of merchants that are currently located there which did not sit well with some of those merchants. there's a definite agenda beyond the primary issue of the bridge itself.

if you can confidently say that and underpass doesn't draw loiters that's great, but it's not true. they'll go where they can find shelter and not be bothered. check out the one on n main and the one on 75th. that urine smell isn't random.

[Ianbian]

if you can confidently say that and underpass doesn't draw loiters that's great, but it's not true. they'll go where they can find shelter and not be bothered. check out the one on n main and the one on 75th. that urine smell isn't random.

Musicman, I don't believe either of those underpasses are comparable. First, neither are in very busy areas. The North Main underpass is surrounded by parking lots on one side, a warehouse on another, and a handfull of houses. The 75th Street underpass has a neighborhood on one side, and a couple of strip malls on the other. There's also a park, which will admittedly draw some pedestrian traffic. But neither can compare to the activity that everybody wants and expects to see on Harrisburg, and as Discovery Green has proven, activity discourages loiterers. With an underpass, there will lots of people walking down those sidewalks because that will be the only way to cross the tracks. With an overpass, there will be NOBODY down at street level, because you have to go OVER to cross the tracks. Which of those two scenarios do you think is more likely to attract people who don't necessarily like being noticed?

Second, both of those underpasses are ancient, with outdated accesibility and lighting. The North Main underpass is one of the scariest places in the world. It's a freaking cave. I don't even know if it has any lighting whatsoever. Furthermore, 500 feet of it are underground. For this Harrisburg underpass, no more than 200 feet would be covered. Likely, it would be far less, because the steel-girder railroad bridges themselves are not much wider than the trains that use them. Furthermore, we would insist that it be built with oustanding lighting and sufficient sidewalks. The lighting would be such an insignificant part of the overall cost that we could probably demand the sun down there without breaking the bank.

I can think of a ton of other underpasses where I've never seen any loiterers. On the other hand, I would have a hard time thinking of a single bridge that doesn't attract them.

[kylejack]

My problem with underpasses is that they provide insufficient facilities for cyclists and pedestrians. Could they include walkways alongside? Yes, however they rarely do. In fact, Harrisburg already has at least one underpass that I can think of that does not provide decent passage for cyclists. Navigation as well. Overpasses are much more accommodating.