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Future Of The Astrodome

What do you think should happen to the astrodome?  

168 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think should happen to the astrodome?

    • luxurey hotel
      14
    • demolation
      51
    • mini city
      35
    • historical landmark
      67


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I would rather they kept the dome frame as well, but I can live with this.  Except for the mini-me Astrodome in the center.  That's really cheesy!

 

 

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Instead of making a mini dome they ought to consider placing the museum aspect of the plan underground. The excavation work was already done decades ago. Gateway arch in St. Louis has their spacious visitor center underground and is quite nice. I would think that modification would allow for a larger space with lower cooling costs and potentially lower construction costs as well.

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For a good while now, Harris County Judge Ed Emmett has been dropping hints about a new proposal to renovate the Astrodome. He’s set to reveal a few details about it tomorrow afternoon, after he holds a press conference set up in a “special little section” of the Astrodome made safe for media attendees. “Emmett has been in discussions with a series of elected officials, stakeholders and interested parties in recent weeks, laying out the general concept for an innovative reuse of the world’s first domed stadium,” a press release from the judge’s office declares. “All [the judge's spokesperson] could tell me is that it’s ‘public use,’ tweets the Chronicle‘s Kiah Collier. [County Judge Ed Emmett; previously on Swamplot] Photo: Joe Stinebaker

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What are the hints besides it will be for public use?

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I think at this point we could fill up the dome with a museum to the failed proposals for what to do with the dome.

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World's largest indoor park. Trees, shrubs, grass and green space under a glass roof. Always 72 degrees. No mosquitos.  

 

Love it. Love everything about it.

Edited by Metro West
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World's largest indoor park. Trees, shrubs, grass and green space under a glass roof. Always 72 degrees. No mosquitos.

Love it. Love everything about it.[/quote

Did he mention financing ?

Edited by lockmat

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Money is no object. We have the strongest economy in America. The 1% can pick up the tab. Greedy bastards! About time they built me a Texas sized indoor park so I can run around in the grass barefoot and not get chigger bites or heat stroke.

 

Just kidding - I'm sure they'll work something out.

 

http://www.chron.com/houston/article/Newest-Dome-proposal-to-be-announced-this-5712980.php

Edited by Metro West
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I actually really love this idea. It's practical, serves a common need, and might even be a tourist destination. It even benefits any event at NRG. As for funding, I say sell advertising in it, throw in food vendors, and allow portions of it to be rented out.

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This is actually the best idea that has come out of his office for the dome.

 

I think it will have a really good chance if there were monetary donations from some powerful Houston names who want to actually immortalize themselves with the likes of Hogg or Cullen, and other major Houston philanthropists.

 

Didn't Kinder just donate 50 million for parks last year? There's got to be a more egotistical rich Houston guy who wants to have a park named in his/her honor!

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This seems like the most expensive idea. Cool the entire dome for ten hours a day with no income to pay for it except OTC?

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I've been saying this to all my friends and family for a while now. They know I love bicycling and the Astrodome would be a perfect circle for cyclists to go around. If they turned this into a park, that would be phenomenal... but I'll believe it when I see the money and if any investors/sponsors sign on. Can't wait to go to the Shipley Donut's Dome.  :rolleyes:

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If chron commenters are any indication of the average Houstonian's opinion of the dome, the future is grim.

 

Personally I'd like to see anyone that supports tearing down the dome excommunicated from the city.

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It's owned by Harris County (regardless of what the Texans and HLSR apparently think) - so turning it into a park isn't that big a conceptual stretch.  

 

 

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If chron commenters are any indication of the average Houstonian's opinion of the dome, the future is grim.

 

If chron commenters are any indication of ANYTHING the future is grim.  :ph34r:

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I'm in favor of Judge Emmett's idea and am glad someone in this city is trying to save this city's greatest landmark.

And so, as an NRG Employee, I decided to do something in the effort to save the Dome. My email to Elizabeth Killinger. Will send an edited version to Ed Emmett as well.

Greetings.

I am a proud employee of NRG and also proud Houstonian that would like to propose an idea that could possibly benefit both the city of Houston and NRG Energy. It involves NRG Park and Harris County Judge Ed Emmett's latest proposal, unveiled today, to save the beloved Astrodome by renovating it into an indoor park that could benefit its citizens.

As you may know, when the Astrodome was first opened, its ceiling panels were originally of clear glass to support the growth of natural grass for a baseball field. However, with the glare of sunlight that blinded baseball outfielders during day games, those panels had to be painted, reducing sunlight and effectively killing the natural grass playing surface in the process. With Judge Emmett's new idea to create a city park inside the Dome, natural grass for a such a park indoors would call for the replacement of the Astrodome's current ceiling panels with clear panels that would allow sunlight in to sustain natural grass. And this sparks my idea.

At MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford, New Jersey, NRG Energy installed the innovative NRG Solar Ring, a ring of clear solar panels mounted atop the stadium used to generate electricity that would help reduce the stadium's operating costs. And this got me thinking ...what if the Dome's ceiling panels were also replaced with these same clear solar panels? The effect could be massive and benefit all parties involved.

For the Astrodome and Judge Emmett's idea, the amount electricity generated from an Astrodome roof filled with clear solar panels may potentially produce enough electricity to transform a renovated Astrodome into a self-sustaining facility-turned indoor city park without costing taxpayers for electrical operating costs.

For NRG Energy and NRG Renew, a solar installation of this size and magnitude of could serve as an exhibit to showcase and promote solar energy use and products in this area and throughout the US. Even further, the goodwill created by such a gesture would be everlasting, possibly preserving the greatest landmark in this city's history for future generations of Houstonians.

In closing, imagine the World's First Domed Stadium, being recycled into a public park with possibly the world's largest solar installation. For NRG Park and the Astrodome, nothing seems more fitting.

Thank you for your time.

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I'm in favor of Judge Emmett's idea and am glad someone in this city is trying to save this city's greatest landmark.

And so, as an NRG Employee, I decided to do something in the effort to save the Dome. My email to Elizabeth Killinger. Will send an edited version to Ed Emmett as well.

 

 BEST. IDEA. EVER.  You are rockin' my socks tigereye.  That works on so many levels, if it can be engineered.  I wonder if the weight of the clear solar panels would be an issue?

 

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BEST. IDEA. EVER. You are rockin' my socks tigereye. That works on so many levels, if it can be engineered. I wonder if the weight of the clear solar panels would be an issue?

Thanks. I have gotten response back and will be forwarded to the proper departments to explore the feasibility of this idea.

As for weight, I'm unsure on this honestly as an installation of these panels on such a massive scale on this roof could present an issue.

This is the NRG Solar Ring panels I speak of at MetLife Stadium. And yes, I'd love to see the accompanying LED light system as part of a solar Astrodome roof. Would be quite a light show overhead for any blimps covering events at NRG Park.

NC-NY-10839-MetLife-Panels-pinkb-400x446

3-Metlife.jpg

Edited by tigereye
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That's awesome Tigereye. I'm just still shocked this morning that we're even having this conversation. For such a long time, it seemed they wouldn't even touch an idea like this. They should have done this a long time ago instead of rebuking all ideas without funding. A leader is supposed to lead us to a final result, not just expect one to fall in his lap. The judge is actually impressing me now.

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If chron commenters are any indication of ANYTHING the future is grim.  :ph34r:

 

I've learned to ignore comments on any newspaper website or media outlet. Most of them are just nameless trolls or just very negative individuals.

 

The only comments I ever read on anything are ones on forums such as this or reddit.

 

As for the idea itself, while I wasn't immediately blown away by it. I took some time to just think about it yesterday and it keeps growing on me. With the logic laid out by Tigereye, my architecture brain quickly took over my usual pessimism when it comes to the Astrodome. It would really be quite an innovative idea. I don't recall any place on earth that would have an indoor park or forest of this size! Not to mention it sorta flips everything on it's head on what the building was once designed for. It used to be for massive energy wasteful climate control for people and instead could be turned into an enormous greenhouse. Of course you would strip most of the walls from the exterior so you could add more windows. It could be quite stunning and might fuel further development around the stadium and on the immediate property. It could very well be the new Discovery Green. I think it's very well time we turn that 25,000 car parking lot into something that is bit more useful. Hell an entire new mini city could be built around the the stadiums lol.

 

It will take many years to really nail this down and get it to a point where it is a truly wonderful experience, but it is a step in the right direction instead of just building a tacky mini dome (oh god that was a terrible idea!).

 

Btw I love the comments on those news sites about the Judge just doing this because he just can't let it go because he could still make money on it.......um is this a magical fairy land where money doesn't exist???...of course that's huge reason for this! Lets not be naive and dream that he is ONLY doing this out of the kindness of his heart. This is what you would call a legacy project. Something that he wants his name attached too which very well might happen if this goes through as in the park would be named after him. But thats what you WANT the rich to do, right? We want them to spend their monies on massive civic projects like this....and quite frankly I wish we had more like this.

Edited by Luminare
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Seriously what could be more "Houston" than an air conditioned indoor park?  :lol:

 

I do wonder about access to the park from the streets... parking... I'm sure the details will unravel given time. I like the idea, and I'll keep my fingers crossed.

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lol, so the Dome would have 2 'firsts' for AC, which would also be a first!

 

the first air conditioned domed stadium.

the first air conditioned indoor park that was previously a domed stadium.

 

I'm so very excited about the Dome once again being the 89th wonder of the world!

Edited by samagon

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Seriously what could be more "Houston" than an air conditioned indoor park?  :lol:

 

 

EXACTLY what I was thinking. Cool in a way, but just another punch line waiting to be written.

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Ummm I hope y'all are just being sarcastic in thinking that this will be A/C.....because you do know it probably won't be right? right? Good. I guess y'all can dream about that fantasy, but it won't be A/C unless they aim for a certain greenhouse effect to suit a very specific climate within the dome. So unless this is going to be an enormous Biodome, for a certain out of state climate not in Houston, then A/C will not be the case. It would economically not make sense and it would just be a waste of money. Why A/C an environment for no reason at all when it isn't occupied 24/7. The stadium will also more than likely not be sealed off and closed. It will probably be naturally ventilated. I mean just the shear size of the space within the dome itself will slowly create it's own unique climate if left to it's own devices with vegetation inside.

Edited by Luminare

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I love the idea.

 

I'd take it a step further. * If * its going to be air conditioned, then why not chill that sucker down to whatever the temps are in Leadville, Co (at the requisite times of year) and make it an indoor park with an alpine feel to it.  (just as one example)?  Then you could have a quasi moutain environment with big conifers, even white water on a small stream.  Sure it would be small, but it would be pretty damn cool.

 

I mean why plant native flora if its indoors and air conditioned?  Why not stretch it further and really make it an attraction?

 

I saw something similar to this idea in an old version of Cite.

 

 

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Ummm I hope y'all are just being sarcastic in thinking that this will be A/C.....because you do know it probably won't be right? right? Good. I guess y'all can dream about that fantasy, but it won't be A/C unless they aim for a certain greenhouse effect to suit a very specific climate within the dome. So unless this is going to be an enormous Biodome, for a certain out of state climate not in Houston, then A/C will not be the case. It would economically not make sense and it would just be a waste of money. Why A/C an environment for no reason at all when it isn't occupied 24/7. The stadium will also more than likely not be sealed off and closed. It will probably be naturally ventilated. I mean just the shear size of the space within the dome itself will slowly create it's own unique climate if left to it's own devices with vegetation inside.

I hope you're right, just from en economical stand point, but I have not seen any indications you are.

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Just an Update: my idea I previously posted has now been officially submitted and has been reviewed by the VP of Channel Marketing. Next step will now to be reviewed by a panel of a solar engineers who sit on our Ideas Forum Board in September.

I also amended the solar panel idea to include a plumbing system based of recycled rain water that flows down the curvature of the Dome's roof.

Will keep all posted as the process moves forth.

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I hope you're right, just from en economical stand point, but I have not seen any indications you are.

 

And exactly what indications are those? Provide some and that could be something to discuss, but I just don't see that happening. In fact a massive climate controlled dome like that is actually going backwards in terms of thinking...not forward. It would make the dome incredibly wasteful in terms of energy. Hell even the solar panels that Tigereye is pushing for wouldn't even matter at that point. If this was one of those theme park/ hotel proposals then I would say you would be right, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

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And exactly what indications are those? Provide some and that could be something to discuss, but I just don't see that happening. In fact a massive climate controlled dome like that is actually going backwards in terms of thinking...not forward. It would make the dome incredibly wasteful in terms of energy. Hell even the solar panels that Tigereye is pushing for wouldn't even matter at that point. If this was one of those theme park/ hotel proposals then I would say you would be right, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I've always thought a hotel should've been built along the outer walls of the Dome in addition to either the failed Dome Events Center plan or Ed Emmett's Park Dome plan. The county's own master plan envisions a hotel on the NRG Center building that would like be used to lure events. A Dome with a hotel on the walls and flexible park/convention space inside could suite all parties involved. The Texans get more hotel rooms & amenities on site it could use for future Super Bowl bids or hosting NFL Owners meetings or even Draft Combines/other NFL related events. The Rodeo & county both get an on site hotel and flexible space it could use for the rodeo/carnival/cook off and OTC. Top this off with a solar panel Dome roof and a rain recyclable water plumbing system to reduce or negate operating costs and maybe this idea works.

As for financing the renovation/hotel portion of the Dome - pull a page from Houston First's playbook with Marriott Marquis: Solicit developers to finance & construct a Dome Convention Center & Stadium Hotel. If marketed in combination with Emmett's Dome Park plan, a Dome hotel could sell itself to developers.

Edited by tigereye
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And exactly what indications are those? Provide some and that could be something to discuss, but I just don't see that happening. In fact a massive climate controlled dome like that is actually going backwards in terms of thinking...not forward. It would make the dome incredibly wasteful in terms of energy. Hell even the solar panels that Tigereye is pushing for wouldn't even matter at that point. If this was one of those theme park/ hotel proposals then I would say you would be right, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

What I meant was, you made it sound like it is obvious that it would not include a/c. Like I said, I hope you're right, but how did you deduce that? Did I miss the article that said they wanted the operation of this park to be Eco-friendly?

If they could just circulate fresh air and keep it at a comfortable temperature that would be sweet, but then what would the point of keeping it enclosed be? How would they keep it warm in the winter?

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Go big or go home...

 

...Largest indoor Net-Zero Energy park. Air condition the Dome without being tied to the grid. <dramatic pause>

 

Let NRG employ solar panels, solar chimneys and a myriad of natural ventilation designs, and whatever other "green" technologies they can come up with.

 

We have the greatest concentration of energy companies in the world--challenge them to recreate the Dome with all of its amenities Zero-Net Energy once operational. Why would they want to spend their profits on such a crazy suggestion? PR and R&D. Largest Indoor Park, that's cool. Largest Indoor Park with a bunch of cutting-edge technology, now that's awesome.

 

Turn the NRG parking lot into Expo 2025. Make Houston 2025 synonymous with Chicago 1893. Let the New Dome be the focal point of a much larger, much grander plan. Take RFP with minimal criteria that must be met with the winning bid getting use of the land free of charge for X number of decades after the World Expo, at which time the ownership reverts back to the county. What's the benefit to the county? Zero cost to redevelop the Dome because someone else will do it for you, and future sales taxes. Parking, park land, storm water, hotel rooms, cow pens for the Rodeo, energy consumption, anything and everything--spell out what all criteria must be met and let them have their fun, an XPrize sort of competition.

 

Astrodome XPrize anyone?  

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I do enjoy this type of plan, convert it to some sort of park/flexible use with Texans and HLSR. I don't think it necessarily needs to be completely indoors as we can go a lot of different ways with the Astrodome as the centerpiece. 

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And exactly what indications are those? 

 

Not that I would put it past a news agency to provide bad news...

 

the article from the chron linked on the previous page:

http://www.chron.com/houston/article/Newest-Dome-proposal-to-be-announced-this-5712980.php#photo-2871431

 

states:

 

 

...The county's top elected official did not present any blueprints or renderings on Tuesday, but discussed a loose concept for an evolving air-conditioned facility that he said could....

 

Again, it's the news, they get things wrong, they may have misheard, they may have misreported, they may have just missed. whatever. indications are at this point that if the plan went forward, it would be air conditioned.

 

As far as reasons why it would be air conditioned, head on over to any warehouse without AC in the summer. hang out for a few hours in the warehouse itself, maybe blow a fan or two, doesn't really matter, open a few garage doors. You will be miserable. The heat will be stifling. By stifling I mean over 110 easily. I was an automotive technician after I graduated high school (seemed like it would be a fun job) I was miserable. the summers were hot, the winters were freezing. there was only protection from rain. Some days the shop floor would get to a sweltering 110 degrees before lunch and hang there until we closed the doors. If the wind was blowing, we considered ourselves lucky. If it rained we considered ourselves lucky.

 

If the plan is for this to be in any way a used facility, it will have to be air conditioned in some way, not just cross ventilation.

 

That being said, I can't imagine it would be kept it much below mid 80s.

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Ummm I hope y'all are just being sarcastic in thinking that this will be A/C.....because you do know it probably won't be right? right? Good. I guess y'all can dream about that fantasy, but it won't be A/C unless they aim for a certain greenhouse effect to suit a very specific climate within the dome. So unless this is going to be an enormous Biodome, for a certain out of state climate not in Houston, then A/C will not be the case. It would economically not make sense and it would just be a waste of money. Why A/C an environment for no reason at all when it isn't occupied 24/7. The stadium will also more than likely not be sealed off and closed. It will probably be naturally ventilated. I mean just the shear size of the space within the dome itself will slowly create it's own unique climate if left to it's own devices with vegetation inside.

 

Because if it weren't air conditioned, and if it was naturally ventilated and not sealed off, the unique climate of its own would likely be summarized by "funk and mold".  

 

I'm assuming the roof panels would have to be replaced with grass if the idea were to have living plants inside.  It's already known the plastic panels don't provide sufficient light.

 

Personally I don't think this has really been thought out much, and in the end will come to nothing.  My initial reaction was if this was really a sensible idea, then how has nobody else come up with it in the last 15 years?  Even some of the more half-baked Astrodome proposals have at least been able to come up with "what if" renderings.  This one hasn't even made it that far.  

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Because if it weren't air conditioned, and if it was naturally ventilated and not sealed off, the unique climate of its own would likely be summarized by "funk and mold".  

 

I'm assuming the roof panels would have to be replaced with grass if the idea were to have living plants inside.  It's already known the plastic panels don't provide sufficient light.

 

Personally I don't think this has really been thought out much, and in the end will come to nothing.  My initial reaction was if this was really a sensible idea, then how has nobody else come up with it in the last 15 years?  Even some of the more half-baked Astrodome proposals have at least been able to come up with "what if" renderings.  This one hasn't even made it that far.  

 

Relax, man.  Of course this one hasn't made it as far as renderings.  It is not yet to that stage.  It was announced at the conceptual stage; nothing more.  It will now proceed to the architects and we will get to the renderings stage and the other details (like the appropriate setting for the thermostat) all in due time.

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A/C isn't just to keep you in comfort, it does keep down mold that likes warm, humid climates, which is why when you leave for a week to turn the A/C to 81° or so, not off.

 

I don't think a park is that out of the question, you could still add stuff like fields, a playground, and all that even without natural grass. Since the lighting panels won't provide enough energy for real grass to grow, we could develop some sort of artificial turf to go in there. We would name it after the dome, and call it: astroturf.

 

:P

 

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Another thing:  If the Dome were to be converted into an indoor park of some sort, then in addition to air conditioning it would need plumbing, insurance, security, upkeep, etc etc.  Since Harris County has never seen itself as a charitable institution, this implies that there would be a somewhat hefty entrance fee to the park, along with hefty parking charges.  All of which begs the question if the demand would really be there for the proposal to make sense.  

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Isn't the Dome already insured?  Surely it is!

 

I would tend to think that the primary money generator would be 1) the concert space, 2) the paid use by tennants such as The Rodeo, and Texans or OTC, 3) the vendor leases.  If this thing gets built I think you could easily see 3-4 large format vendors like what Discovery Green has.  Additionally the mentioning of a science/math learning center would perhaps also facilitate a lease.

Ed Emmett was on the Sports Radio 610 yesterday and "his vision" indicated this would be a park - and like all parks the use/entrance is free.  We already pay for parks through taxes, so this things upkeep would fall under that line item on the city budget.  At least this is my thinking.

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Isn't the Dome already insured?  Surely it is!

 

I would tend to think that the primary money generator would be 1) the concert space, 2) the paid use by tennants such as The Rodeo, and Texans or OTC, 3) the vendor leases.  If this thing gets built I think you could easily see 3-4 large format vendors like what Discovery Green has.  Additionally the mentioning of a science/math learning center would perhaps also facilitate a lease.

Ed Emmett was on the Sports Radio 610 yesterday and "his vision" indicated this would be a park - and like all parks the use/entrance is free.  We already pay for parks through taxes, so this things upkeep would fall under that line item on the city budget.  At least this is my thinking.

 

You have it exactly right and Mr. Emmet has clearly said as much.  (Except that it falls under the county budget, not the city budget.)

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The world's largest indoor park = instant tourist attraction. I see this starting out modest and growing into a real treasure, like Moody Gardens. Yes. People pay to get into Moody Gardens. 

 

At first it may be nothing more than trees, grass and hedges inside a preserved monument to mid-century architecture. That itself would be a reason for me to pay to see it on a regular basis. But adding in permanent and temporary attractions will bring in the tourists. How many outdoor events are held in Houston year round that would be more enjoyable in a weatherproof, bug proof, perfect climate, historically relevant location with easy parking? Art festivals? Concerts? Conventions? I love this idea because it could be used by an endless variety of venues.

 

This could be the coolest park in America.

Edited by Metro West
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I tend to be comfortable when others are hot. My Houston family must be air-conditioned at all times. I have never known them to dine al fresco even once, at any time of year. Moreover, they prefer the air to be conditioned to a fairly arctic degree, because "the men are wearing suits," Mother used to say.

 

But men aren't wearing suits all that much anymore, and my family are a collection of old fuddy-duddies, and I'm pretty sure none of them has ever been to a park anyway.

 

As HAIFers often point out, Houston has drawn a very international crowd of newcomers, most of whom have gotten along just fine without air-conditioning in their home countries. I suppose it's possible they came to Houston for the A/C.

 

Still, a big chilled dome park seems, forgive me, a bit dated. "Passive cooling" seems much more of the moment.

 

And I think people value outdoor spaces a good deal more than they used to, especially now that we've finally figured out about hydrating. There is so much more enthusiasm for parks now. I agree with all who have argued for the shell of the dome overarching a green space or open venue of some sort.

 

Also, an impression I've had, and I don't quite know how to put it, but I think a trend is people sort of bringing their own entertainment again. They just need places to gather and do whatever oddball things they do; there is less desire for things to be programmed from above. Turning the dome into a sealed rainforest just seems like overthinking.

 

Sometimes "the solution to an architectural problem is not a building," as I've read somewhere recently. The "world's largest gazebo"?

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^Right.  However, *IF* the Dome is air conditioned and built as an indoor park - why not then build the thing to a different climate alltogether?  (which is what I would rather see -- go ahead and make it an alpine biodome if you're going to spend the money!)

 

If not, then I agree about the passive cooling.  There are ways to accomplish that without going to extremes.

 

Portions could be air conditioned if needed without the entire space being air conditioned.

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The "world's largest gazebo"

 

I love it.  The answer has been there all along.

 

 

That said, per the above if the indoor park goes through an alpine biodome would be perfect.  Rain forests have been done to death.

 

 

 

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^Right.  However, *IF* the Dome is air conditioned and built as an indoor park - why not then build the thing to a different climate alltogether?  (which is what I would rather see -- go ahead and make it an alpine biodome if you're going to spend the money!)

 

If not, then I agree about the passive cooling.  There are ways to accomplish that without going to extremes.

 

Portions could be air conditioned if needed without the entire space being air conditioned.

 

"Alpine bio-dome?" Would that include a ski slope then? Heck, this is Houston. If we didn't invent air conditioning we perfected it.  :) Make it snow in there! (I hope everyone knows I'm joking. I agree with the notion that whatever it becomes it is not over-thought.

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Why not?  It could be a seasonal thing.  Why limit it?   Its open to any possibilities.  Snow is brought into to Discovery Green during the Holidays.

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Why not?  It could be a seasonal thing.  Why limit it?   Its open to any possibilities.  Snow is brought into to Discovery Green during the Holidays.

 

I'm in agreement with bringing in man-made snow. What my joke implied was to literally make it snow by REALLY cranking down the AC (as if it could be done) and spray a water mist in the air so it would fall as "snow."

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^Well.... that would be cool!  But that would also be really crazy to crank down the air that much.

 

Personally I'd be happy with a perpetual Alpine-esque environment where the temps ranged between 32-65 year round.

 

In reality we'll get some live oaks and native plants in a perpetual 78-80 degree environment (if its a/c'd) - which also won't be too bad.

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