Houston and the Miles and Miles of Ugly!

[BryanS]

Gotta agree with you. I love Houston but it is freakin ugly. Especially to newcomers. I just try to tell them that it has it's good points and nice areas, you just have to look over the general ugliness. I can only imagine the first impression visitors driving into downtown from the airport must have.

...or if you live and work here... go for skiing vacation, or some other destination... come back... it's kinda depressing, making that drive. You get a "fresh look" at just how ugly it is...

[sarahiki]

Even around Houston, we have that.

When you look in the yellow pages... what do you see? Addresses. Not exit numbers. Not mile markers. No signs that show what is at the exit... Addresses.

I just randomly turned to page 190 in the CL yellow pages. There is an ad for Sprint. Location: 12804 Gulf Freeway. That's all it says. But where is that on the freeway??? If I could see a block number... sure would make it easy. But no. I must go to google maps... look at the cross street... and then exit and see their ugly signage on the side of the road. In this case, probably a giant sign, with all the businesses that are in that strip mall. When I go to a strip mall, I never look at the big sign... I am looking at the actual building... "Case Ole... no.... Mr. Gattis... no... 24 hour fitness... I really need to go there... but no... Specs... maybe later... Sprint... That's it!"

We are never going to get rid of frontage roads. The next best thing is to eliminate all signage, billboards along the freeway. And businesses would not be footing the bill for block markers. COH would cover that.

So, how to make this happen? I would guess that Peter Brown is your best mayoral choice if you harbor any hope that something like urban aesthetics will be in any way a priority. But though I like what he stands for, I have no idea how effective he would be as mayor. Bill White has been incredibly effective and seems to know how to get things done; I am not optimistic we'll get so lucky twice in a row.

[musicman]

So, how to make this happen? I would guess that Peter Brown is your best mayoral choice if you harbor any hope that something like urban aesthetics will be in any way a priority. But though I like what he stands for, I have no idea how effective he would be as mayor.

what has he done as councilmember?

[sarahiki]

what has he done as councilmember?

I really don't know. This is what HE says he has done:

http://peterbrownforhouston.com/experience

[musicman]

don't know? go listen to him speak sometime and report back.

[sarahiki]

don't know? go listen to him speak sometime and report back.

Why are you giving me a job? I'm not advocating for him. If you want to know, you go listen.

[TheNiche]

Why are you giving me a job? I'm not advocating for him. If you want to know, you go listen.

I know that Musicman knows what Peter Brown is all about because Musicman frequently attends the same meetings as does Brown, and Brown usually gets a few words in whether he's the featured speaker or not. The words are always inane, transparent, well-spun politicized crap. He always makes an appearance then leaves the event well before it is over; it is insulting to the host as well as to the keynote speakers.

I've spoken to him on numerous occasions; he knows me by now. He's a politician. He does not care for the subject matter. He only cares about furthering his agenda. He is arrogant. He is insulting. He is presumptuous. And his policy is shallow, poorly-thought-out tripe rife with unintended consequences.

I endorse his opponent, whomever it may be.

[BryanS]

I endorse his opponent, whomever it may be.

Annise Parker thanks you.

[musicman]

Annise Parker thanks you.

don't make me go here either. ask her about the civic art program she was pushing several yrs ago.

[sarahiki]

I know that Musicman knows what Peter Brown is all about because Musicman frequently attends the same meetings as does Brown, and Brown usually gets a few words in whether he's the featured speaker or not. The words are always inane, transparent, well-spun politicized crap. He always makes an appearance then leaves the event well before it is over; it is insulting to the host as well as to the keynote speakers.

I've spoken to him on numerous occasions; he knows me by now. He's a politician. He does not care for the subject matter. He only cares about furthering his agenda. He is arrogant. He is insulting. He is presumptuous. And his policy is shallow, poorly-thought-out tripe rife with unintended consequences.

I endorse his opponent, whomever it may be.

This is what I was afraid we'd get in terms of mayoral candidates.

Anyway, I didn't mean to threadjack this into a political discussion; I do think it's worth talking about HOW to make changes like the ones proposed above, regarding signage etc., happen.

[TheNiche]

This is what I was afraid we'd get in terms of mayoral candidates.

Anyway, I didn't mean to threadjack this into a political discussion; I do think it's worth talking about HOW to make changes like the ones proposed above, regarding signage etc., happen.

I think there's more merit in discussing the worthiness of change. I myself would prefer to see sign ordinances loosened up, or at least providing some more wiggle room for cool signs. Signs can be an art form.

I also consider signs (even those categorized as commercial signs with no artistic merit) to be an issue related to free speech. Unless they pose a threat to the public health or encroach upon somebody else's property, they shouldn't be regulated. And no, I don't buy the idea that drivers might be distracted by them. If someone is so easily distracted, that person's driving habits need to be regulated. There are plenty of other far more unregulatable and distracting things than signs along a road, after all. Really, can you imagine a conversation where someone gets pulled over for weaving in and out of their lanes or after a fender bender and they're talking to the cop and explain themselves by saying that they were distracted by a billboard!? BS. People trying to use that argument seem more likely just to be looking for a palatable way of arguing, discretely, to restrict free speech in the name of the taste police.

[sarahiki]

I think there's more merit in discussing the worthiness of change. I myself would prefer to see sign ordinances loosened up, or at least providing some more wiggle room for cool signs. Signs can be an art form.

I also consider signs (even those categorized as commercial signs with no artistic merit) to be an issue related to free speech. Unless they pose a threat to the public health or encroach upon somebody else's property, they shouldn't be regulated. And no, I don't buy the idea that drivers might be distracted by them. If someone is so easily distracted, that person's driving habits need to be regulated. There are plenty of other far more unregulatable and distracting things than signs along a road, after all. Really, can you imagine a conversation where someone gets pulled over for weaving in and out of their lanes or after a fender bender and they're talking to the cop and explain themselves by saying that they were distracted by a billboard!? BS. People trying to use that argument seem more likely just to be looking for a palatable way of arguing, discretely, to restrict free speech in the name of the taste police.

Yes, this is where the debate is. I think Houston generally operates on the principles you espouse... free speech, and freedom of commercial endeavors. Certainly it can be argued that Houston has benefitted, economically, from a generally unregulated atmosphere. But the downside is described above: an ugly city that is not admired or respected by the rest of the country/world, and as a result of the ugliness also does not attract the tourism or business that it should.

I would argue that while free speech and expression are great, when they detract from the majority's sense of what is nice to live around, and from the majority's bottom line (by repelling tourists and big events like Olympics etc), they should be regulated. We do this all the time in other arenas.

So, it's a matter of which side has more support. I think we may, as a city, be moving toward more regulations and more beautification. I hope so.

[TheNiche]

Yes, this is where the debate is. I think Houston generally operates on the principles you espouse... free speech, and freedom of commercial endeavors. Certainly it can be argued that Houston has benefitted, economically, from a generally unregulated atmosphere. But the downside is described above: an ugly city that is not admired or respected by the rest of the country/world, and as a result of the ugliness also does not attract the tourism or business that it should.

I would argue that while free speech and expression are great, when they detract from the majority's sense of what is nice to live around, and from the majority's bottom line (by repelling tourists and big events like Olympics etc), they should be regulated. We do this all the time in other arenas.

Admire us for who we are and what we do, not for how we look. And if we cannot be admired by outsiders for those aspects which are admirable, then ____'em. I don't want admiration from those who are not themselves inherently worthy of admiration.

So, it's a matter of which side has more support. I think we may, as a city, be moving toward more regulations and more beautification. I hope so.

No, it's a matter of which side has better reasoned arguments or whether their opinions are even valid. Right now, I'm still arguing that the 'public health' argument lacks validity and that the aesthetic argument is not particularly compelling.

If your point is that might makes right, well ultimately it does. But that's not a very effective way to hold an online debate or a compelling reason for me to abandon my position.

[sarahiki]

Admire us for who we are and what we do, not for how we look. And if we cannot be admired by outsiders for those aspects which are admirable, then ____'em. I don't want admiration from those who are not themselves inherently worthy of admiration.

No, it's a matter of which side has better reasoned arguments or whether their opinions are even valid. Right now, I'm still arguing that the 'public health' argument lacks validity and that the aesthetic argument is not particularly compelling.

If your point is that might makes right, well ultimately it does. But that's not a very effective way to hold an online debate or a compelling reason for me to abandon my position.

I have no expectation that you will abandon your position. And my point about where the most support lies has to do with what direction the city is going, and what measures City Council is likely to take, not with what direction an online debate is going.

You, personally, may not want admiration for Houston from outsiders, but perception of Houston, and its ability to attract tourists, DOES matter economically. This is my point.

[musicman]

I have no expectation that you will abandon your position. And my point about where the most support lies has to do with what direction the city is going, and what measures City Council is likely to take, not with what direction an online debate is going.

You, personally, may not want admiration for Houston from outsiders, but perception of Houston, and its ability to attract tourists, DOES matter economically. This is my point.

when the city doesn't enforce other ordinances regarding similar aesthetic issues currently, what changes do you expect?

[sarahiki]

when the city doesn't enforce other ordinances regarding similar aesthetic issues currently, what changes do you expect?

To which ones do you refer?

[GovernorAggie]

I think there's more merit in discussing the worthiness of change. I myself would prefer to see sign ordinances loosened up, or at least providing some more wiggle room for cool signs. Signs can be an art form.

I also consider signs (even those categorized as commercial signs with no artistic merit) to be an issue related to free speech. Unless they pose a threat to the public health or encroach upon somebody else's property, they shouldn't be regulated. And no, I don't buy the idea that drivers might be distracted by them. If someone is so easily distracted, that person's driving habits need to be regulated. There are plenty of other far more unregulatable and distracting things than signs along a road, after all. Really, can you imagine a conversation where someone gets pulled over for weaving in and out of their lanes or after a fender bender and they're talking to the cop and explain themselves by saying that they were distracted by a billboard!? BS. People trying to use that argument seem more likely just to be looking for a palatable way of arguing, discretely, to restrict free speech in the name of the taste police.

Niche is right on this one. The idea of getting rid of these signs is DOA because of the First Amendment, but sometimes there's so many signs that you can't see the basic freeway informational signs. I think that reducing sign heights would be more doable. I like Bryan's ideas about using signs to ID the block numbers, but I would just combine it with the existing signs. For example, on the Southwest Freeway, instead of the sign just saying "EDLOE/WESLAYAN 1/2 MILE", you put a sign that says "US59 3000-4000" above the exit signs (maybe a white sign with black letters like the speed limit signs) similar to how the interstates have the exit number above the sign or how some signs say "EXIT ONLY" and so on. That way, the freeway block is ID'd and it would say to the driver, "exit here for the 3000-4000 block of US 59."

TxDOT could test it for a while like they did with the pavement markings at freeway-to-freeway interchanges (which are EXTREMELY helpful)

Another thing about the litter--I can't stand two things while I'm driving; people throwing out cigarettes and stuff flying off the back of a truck. I personally would support a covered truck bed being required equipment. If a truck's bed isn't covered, police can pull them over and ticket them just as they would for a tail light or headlight. Just as every other traffic ticket is about safety, this one definitely would be. How much garbage comes out of people's trucks because they made a sharp turn, stomped on the brakes, or were just driving and the wind got to a loose bag in their truckbed?

[musicman]

To which ones do you refer?

bandit sign ordinance, limiting garage sales so a house doesn't look like a store every weekend, cutting weeded lots, etc.

[skyphen]

Niche is right on this one. The idea of getting rid of these signs is DOA because of the First Amendment

I don't understand this argument. Did other cities that don't have this issue violate the first amendment in getting rid of the signs? That doesn't seem likely.

[tierwestah]

I get kind of embarrassed to drive my friends from Phoenix and Las Vegas through this ugly sprawling city. If drivers are required to take routes out of the way when Superbowl and the Olympics are in town then that's should turn the light on that something needs to be done. They did that in Superbowl 04. Why in 5 years couldn't they come up with a plan to beautify the freeway. I'm with C2h that the trees do jack to hide the ugly buildings and billboards cluttering the freeway. Why can't more of the freeways look like Katy FWY? I guess the city doesn't care about the eastside, southeast side, and southwest side because all the money makers are out in West Houston.

I'm almost encouraged to write the Mayor on this. Would he be the proper person to address this issue to?

[RedScare]

This thread is awesome! It's like homeless bashing for self-employed businessmen. Clearly, there are not a lot of libertarians on this forum, when everyone wants government to be the taste police.

Note: I do not get embarrassed driving my friends around. They understand that not everyone has the resources of a River Oaks resident or a multi national retailer. But hey, that's just the kind of friends I keep.

[tierwestah]

^^^ don't get me wrong. Houston is my home, born and raised. But it's still ugly. It's not alone though. Philadelphia seems to get the worse rap of all cities as being the ugliest, same with Detroit MI. Also other ugly cities are Miami, parts of Chicago, and i don't care how citykid tries to paint it as being a perfect picture, but Atlanta has just as much ugly as Houston. I think Citykid saw everything in Atlanta through rose-colored glasses. I mean he rode MARTA and hardly drove around the rest of the city except the main areas. He really got a real BROAD view of Atlanta .

It's just cities like Vegas, Denver know how to hide their ugly stretches. Houston doesn't give a rats hairy ass how it looks. It makes me a little frustrated. Maybe once Houston develops more things to do, people won't concentrate on the ugly so much. Look at NYC, its a dirty ugly city but has things like Broadway, Entertainment, and etc to keep people's mind off the trash on the streets. Miami even looks like a 3rd world country through most of the city but the picturesque beach makes up for it. And don't get me started on LA.

[Jeebus]

Houston doesn't give a rats hairy ass how it looks.

ZERO pretention. That is my number one love for Houston.

I get kind of embarrassed to drive my friends from Phoenix and Las Vegas through this ugly sprawling city.

I'm the exact opposite. I go out of my way to drive off the "safe" landscaped paths to show visitors how "rough & tough" and gritty Houston is.

I love our southern grit.

[sarahiki]

ZERO pretention. That is my number one love for Houston.

Pretentiousness, and caring about how a place looks, do not equate.

For example, Vermont. People there care a LOT about how it looks. They are also about the most unpretentious people you could meet. I'm not saying we should be like Vermont, so don't start telling me what's wrong with Vermont (I won't hear you anyway; I love it). I'm just pointing out that it's illogical to equate caring about the appearance of a city with pretentiousness.

[Trae]

This thread is awesome! It's like homeless bashing for self-employed businessmen. Clearly, there are not a lot of libertarians on this forum, when everyone wants government to be the taste police.

Note: I do not get embarrassed driving my friends around. They understand that not everyone has the resources of a River Oaks resident or a multi national retailer. But hey, that's just the kind of friends I keep.

I love driving my relatives from out of town around.

"Houston is just raw", is what I always tell them.

[Dan the Man]

I get kind of embarrassed to drive my friends from Phoenix and Las Vegas through this ugly sprawling city.

Phoenix & Las Vegas aren't ugly sprawling cities?

[Trae]

Both are "manicured" though. Hell, even Los Angeles has some pretty well manicured freeways.

[JLWM8609]

I'm the exact opposite. I go out of my way to drive off the "safe" landscaped paths to show visitors how "rough & tough" and gritty Houston is.

I love our southern grit.

So you take out of town visitors on "Tour de Hood" trips too?

I do not believe there is a city that has ZERO blight in this world. No matter what, somebody will nit pick and find something wrong with it. Houston is not perfect, and sometimes I wish I could live somewhere else, but it's where I was born, raised and live, and I'm not embarrassed to take people to certain parts of it, to use some slang, "I likes to keep it real", lol.

I'm not embarrased to take people down Telephone Rd. or Broadway when picking them up from Hobby Airport. Nor would I be afraid to take I-45 or the Hardy Toll Road into town from Intercontinental. The Eastex, the preferred choice of many bringing out of towners from Intercontinental isn't that great looking of a freeway either. It may be wide and new looking, but there's "blight" on both sides of it, especially when you reach the unincorporated area of Harris Co. between Little York and BW8.

Since we're discussing freeway aesthetics, I want to touch the subject of feeder roads. Contrary to most, I LOVE those things. Truly a Texan innovation, and they serve a good purpose. I'm pretty sure many of you have used the old "jump off, jump on" trick during heavy traffic. You know, the mainlanes are running slow at 20mph, but you can jump off onto an offramp and travel on the feeder road at 45mph and jump right back onto an onramp around the crawling traffic. Try THAT on I-75/85 in Atlanta.

The problem is not with the feeder roads themselves, but the businesses that set up shop along them. Even freeways without feeder roads have ugly billboards alongside them, or you have an ugly view of the rear of a building that backs up to the freeway if an arterial road runs parallel to the freeway. So you can't blame Houston's roadside on the unattractiveness of feeder roads alone.

Maybe to please some of you guys, TxDOT should put some restrictions on future feeder road construction. Have TxDOT buy land 200-300 ft off to the side of each new feeder road as to not allow construction of businesses to encroach on the roads themselves. Only allow businesses to be built along the feeder road within 500 feet of busy intersections. Only allow side street connections to the feeder road to connect to neighborhoods and business parks located off of the easement, and no driveways unless they connect to a business within the 500 foot zone near busy intersections. Imagine how much that would cost the taxpayer.

[RedScare]

Do some people's friends REALLY equate the scenery with your worthiness as a friend? I'm trying to imagine how that conversation would go...

Friend: Wow, this freeway runs through a slum. You must be a loser.

Me: I'm not a loser. I don't own those properties.

Friend: You live here. Those properties are ugly. Therefore, you are a loser. I can't wait to tell our other friends.

Me: Please don't. I'll be embarrassed.

Friend: Too late. Already texted them on my Iphone, you loser. BTW, what do you think of my new Abercrombie shirt?

[musicman]

I get kind of embarrassed to drive my friends from Phoenix and Las Vegas through this ugly sprawling city.

usually i'm glad to see my friends and we talk all the way to our destination and they aren't interested in what is going on outside. houston has lots of hidden gems all over town and when you are able to point these out, mine are impressed that i know so much about the town. things that are truly uniquely houston.

i feel embarassed for the people who take their visitors to pf chang's and cheesecake factory.