Why some people hate the suburbs

[TexasVines]

As for food, etc. I live inside the Loop and mostly go out to eat there, but sometimes I get food outside the Beltway because it is very good.

what type of protective measures do you take when you make this risky venture

[BryanS]

As for food, etc. I live inside the Loop and mostly go out to eat there, but sometimes I get food outside the Beltway because it is very good.

Do you find yourself having to pack a sack lunch, first, before you embark on your journey? That is, do you find it necessary to nourish yourself on emergency rations, and eat... before you make it to your destination, outside of the loop, where you can eat again? Can you provide any helpful advice to others who dare to endeavor as you?

[VicMan]

Do you find yourself having to pack a sack lunch, first, before you embark on your journey? That is, do you find it necessary to nourish yourself on emergency rations, and eat... before you make it to your destination, outside of the loop, where you can eat again? Can you provide any helpful advice to others who dare to endeavor as you?

You are funny -It doesn't take that long to cross the Beltway.

what type of protective measures do you take when you make this risky venture

I know the way of the 1000 Ninjas by Hattori Hanzo - that's how

[kylejack]

Your still just singling out specific high schools in HISD. As big of a district as HISD has, I'm sure there are a few good schools but overall it sucks.

I never said it didn't!

It's true that you can get a good education in HISD--if you're rich, or lucky. I've been spending a lot of time looking at HISD elementary schools lately, and the goods ones are:

1. in places where I can't afford a home

2. magnet schools, which are increasingly difficult to get a spot in. Roberts, for example, will take approximately 10 kids from outside their zone this year. Probably 200 will apply.

So yes, there are good schools. But for anyone to blithely say that parents can live in Houston and just "find a good magnet school" are dreaming.

Not familiar with elementaries, but Lamar, to use the familiar example, covers a wide variety of housing from all different price ranges, not even counting the students it pulls in from outside its zones.

[mr. city]

This seems like a long, angry argument to jump in on but I can't resist my desire to weigh in.

Firstly, to be honest, I spent most of my life with negative stereotypes being my only thought of the suburbs, but have recently come to see their strengths.

Second, although I have a lot of opinions about the strengths and weaknesses of both places, I am firmly in the camp of those who argue that it is perfectly reasonable for different people to choose either to live in.

I'll start with income, because this stood out the most to me as lacking in the analysis above. To me, that is largest factor differentiating city living from suburban. In a city there are certainly pockets of homogeneous income: there are wealthy areas without poor people, and poor areas without any wealthy people. At the same time, three factors create more interaction within the city between people with a wider range of incomes. The first is simply that you have to go less far to move from affluence to wealth with an urban area. The second is that modes of travel, even in a low-density city like Houston, cause more interaction with strangers in the city and in the suburbs. The third is because of the greater (and constantly changing) proportion of property value composed of land (as opposed to buildings) in an urban environment, you see a greater number of neighborhoods with a mix income levels seen side by side. Many of these neighborhoods are in a process of transition and will eventually become more homogeneous, but a good deal of Houston has neighborhoods like this, with new construction alongside well-kept and poorly-maintained older housing stock.

In contrast, suburbs tend to contain a number of housing built for a similar market, and all at a similar time. Although I admit to liking the idea of having a unique floor plan, I certainly wouldn't criticize anyone else for having duplicates. What you do lose in a development where every house was designed together, in my opinion, is the diversity of income that is achieved with less homogeneous housing stock. There are certainly lower income suburbs as well, but there is less heterogeneity.

Is that worth it? For some people, yes. My father in law lives in the suburbs and I could not understand why when I met him. But eventually I saw that he has a really nice house with a yard and a garden, situated between a public pool and a soccer field, within an easy walk of the giant George Bush Park, and he paid less that I would have to pay for an empty lot in the Montrose. He also can (and does) bike to his job almost entirely on trails, and can easily ride west into rural land as well.

How many people here live within the city limits but drive to work? I do. The stereotype of the suburbs being all wasted energy and cities being efficient is a little too simplistic.

In terms of ethnic diversity, I would also question those who immediately chalk this one up in favor of urban areas. My father in law, who incidentally is not white, lives on a street where the majority of people are not white. What they have in common, as I mentioned above, is that they tend to all have similar levels of education and upper middle class professional jobs. I am not saying that there is equal ethnic diversity in cities and suburbs, but only that it is too simplistic to say the suburbs are all white and cities are diverse.

As for education, I think that urban and suburban schools all have their strengths. Having spent a lot of time around all of these school systems, I would much prefer my children attend Lamar than attend any of the suburban schools. But a lot of what makes parents uncomfortable is not that urban schools don't produce good students who go to good colleges and are successful; it's that urban schools have tend to have a wider range of income students attending them. I would also argue that fears of more ethnically diverse schools also drive many people to the suburbs, despite the fact that this is not a 100% accurate description.

I love the city. I live here because I'm young, I like to be around friends and activities, I go out at night, and I value the diversity of options here. At the same time, I really disagree with those who think that there is a moral imperative for everyone to live in the city and think that somehow none of what the suburbs claim to offer is real.

For those focused on environmentalism, please . . . If you really wanted to lower your carbon footprint, you would need to move to a city where 1) You didn't ever use a car 2) You didn't use the kind of air conditioning that is standard here in Houston. LA, with all of it's sprawl, consistently has some of the lowest emissions per capita, simply because of the energy saved by having a temperate climate.

My personal belief is that cities and suburbs are both here to stay, and both have a lot of room for improvement. I'd rather focus on making both better than some kind of contest between them.

[musicman]

welcome to haif.

[sevfiv]

Thanks for contributing your thoughts, mr. city, and welcome to HAIF.

[memebag]

I really want to argue with Mr. City, but absolute agreement stands in my way. Welcome to The HAIF.

[Jeebus]

So Meme, did you ever concede that you don't live in the suburbs, or are you still not budging?

[memebag]

So Meme, did you ever concede that you don't live in the suburbs, or are you still not budging?

I just grabbed these from har.com. Honestly, what would you call the neighborhood containing these houses? Urban, suburban or exurban?

[CoolBuddy06]

My personal belief is that cities and suburbs are both here to stay, and both have a lot of room for improvement. I'd rather focus on making both better than some kind of contest between them.

Finally, this thread did something good - it made mr. city to start posting. Welcome. And thankls a lot for articulating your points so logically. Now all the city-is-best-suburbanites-are-stupid HAIFers should stick this up their nose.

[CoolBuddy06]

I just grabbed these from har.com. Honestly, what would you call the neighborhood containing these houses? Urban, suburban or exurban?

Someone grab a pair of glasses and see the big picture. Westbury is a little suburb within the city, at best. It can't be lumped together with Sugar Land or the Woodlands, which are the kind of suburbs that most people here are talking about.

[memebag]

Someone grab a pair of glasses and see the big picture. Westbury is a little suburb within the city, at best. It can't be lumped together with Sugar Land or the Woodlands, which are the kind of suburbs that most people here are talking about.

I wonder if it's an age thing. I've noticed that a lot of young people, especially young people who grew up in the far-flung suburbs, call anything inside the loop "downtown".

[kylejack]

I wonder if it's an age thing. I've noticed that a lot of young people, especially young people who grew up in the far-flung suburbs, call anything inside the loop "downtown".

I've encountered that. Its annoying.

[Fringe]

If people like Mr. City start introducing logic in these posts then what's left to argue about?

[Jeebus]

I just grabbed these from har.com. Honestly, what would you call the neighborhood containing these houses? Urban, suburban or exurban?

That's not what I asked you. I asked if you've conceded that you don't live in the suburbs, not if you live in a stereotypical suburban home.

You probably live in a stereotypical suburban home because once upon a time, your neighborhood was a suburb that was adjacent to the city that would make it a suburb to.

I just figured its kind of hard to drive in to the city from the "suburb" you say you live in, when said neighborhood is already inside the city you would drive in to.

What a perplexing conundrum indeed.

[sevfiv]

You can argue semantics and interpretation all day, but it's all subjective and on a continuum. There's no mile cut off, house design, or build date that defines any of this, so it's all up top the perception of the resident...

[memebag]

That's not what I asked you. I asked if you've conceded that you don't live in the suburbs, not if you live in a stereotypical suburban home.

And I asked you what you would call the neighborhood containing those houses. What would you call it? Urban, suburban or exurban?

You probably live in a stereotypical suburban home because once upon a time, your neighborhood was a suburb that was adjacent to the city that would make it a suburb to.

I just figured its kind of hard to drive in to the city from the "suburb" you say you live in, when said neighborhood is already inside the city you would drive in to.

And as I said before, city limits aren't a useful part of the definition if the city is as free to annex as Houston is.

So what's your answer?

[kylejack]

And I asked you what you would call the neighborhood containing those houses. What would you call it? Urban, suburban or exurban?

I could take similar pictures in the Montrose area (not a suburb) if you like. A suburb is a place, not a buildstyle.

[memebag]

I could take similar pictures in the Montrose area (not a suburb) if you like. A suburb is a place, not a buildstyle.

"Suburb" describes land use. It describes how people live. Where they live influences how they live, but it isn't the sole factor.

How would you categorize the neighborhood shown in my pictures? Urban, suburban or exurban?

[kylejack]

"Suburb" describes land use. It describes how people live. Where they live influences how they live, but it isn't the sole factor.

How would you categorize the neighborhood shown in my pictures? Urban, suburban or exurban?

I would not categorize based on build style. Since you do, however, how would you categorize the Montrose if I were to provide you with 8 photos similar to yours?

[memebag]

I would not categorize based on build style. Since you do, however, how would you categorize the Montrose if I were to provide you with 8 photos similar to yours?

I used to live there, so I know it has a mix of single family houses with yards, duplexes, fourplexes, townhouses, apartments & commercial. I'd categorize it as urban.

Why won't you answer my question? Have you been to The Westbury?

[KatieDidIt]

I think there are Houston Neighborhoods and suburbs. The suburbs keep getting pushed farther and farther out as the city grows. What once was suburbia in the 60's, outside the loop, is now very much urban neighborhood. What was once suburban in the late 70's and 80's, at the Beltway, are now just Houston neighborhoods as well.

Both places fill certain needs. I've now lived in both,granted my suburban experience was only 2 years. And you know what's funny? The reason I dislike the suburbs so much now are some of the very reason we moved there. Oh well, live and learn right? But you know what? You can raise really great kids and have a great education in both places. Life experiences and racial-economic tolerance are certainly gained more in the city though.

PS- Westbury is a urban-suburban neighborhood in my opinion.

[memebag]

PS- Westbury is a urban-suburban neighborhood in my opinion.

So "urban" is purely a geographic distinction, and isn't a useful indicator of land use or lifestyle?

[KatieDidIt]

So "urban" is purely a geographic distinction, and isn't a useful indicator of land use or lifestyle?

In my opinion yes. Suburban is lifestyle and use, but can be used to refer to location. Thus, most neighborhoods inside the Beltway are urban in location but suburban in layout, due to the single family homes and grided streets. This is why I say urban-suburban

When someones says suburban, I think outside the Beltway in most directions.

[kylejack]

I used to live there, so I know it has a mix of single family houses with yards, duplexes, fourplexes, townhouses, apartments & commercial. I'd categorize it as urban.

Why won't you answer my question? Have you been to The Westbury?

I won't answer your question because I do not classify whether or not something is a suburb based on the build style of some homes in the area. I don't even accept that as a valid way to determine if something is a suburb or not, so your question is unanswerable. Yes, I have been to Westbury. Since Westbury is inside the city limits, it is not a suburb of that same city.

I once saw a Chevy Suburban driving in Westbury, therefore it is a suburb.

[Jeebus]

Kate, I think you're hitting the nail on the head. Houston is a monstrous double-standard of urban vs. suburban living.

"Suburb" describes land use. It describes how people live. Where they live influences how they live, but it isn't the sole factor.

By that definition, then anyone not living with in about 1 square mile of downtown, on the inner-cusp of the Wards, is living in the suburbs. River Oaks, Montrose, Rice Village, Eastwood, Lindale Park, Denver Harbor, the Heights, etc, etc, - all still suburbs.

Meme, to answer your question (again)..

Your home, and most of the single family dwellings in ALL of the Houston metro, and outside the colonial northeast for that matter, are suburban in design. The construction type of home is helpful in identifying a suburb, but is not absolute.

I will contend that Westbury was a suburb once. You would leave Westbury and travel into the city for your needs. Now however, the city has grown (or annexed as you refer to) around Westbury. So its physically impossible for you to live in the suburbs.

Perhaps if Westbury and/or adjoining neighborhoods had incorporated, then indeed you could say that you live in the suburbs, and more specifically a suburb of Houston.

For now however, you simply live in the city of Houston, in a neighborhood called Westbury.

[InTheLoop]

Sorry, Montrose was and is, a SUBURB. I, too, lived there (for 6 yrs., 2000-2006)

I believe that once a suburb, always a suburb, unless the original intent, i.e., homes on platted lots, is destroyed. Not so in Montrose, an overwhelmingly RESIDENTIAL suburb of downtown Houston. If they had built the 69th Street Sludge Plant on Montrose Blvd. in 1985 and tore

down 90% of the housing stock (and did NOT replace with more housing), then some of you may have an argument. It was designed, platted and

laid out as a suburb, and it remains so today. A freaky, cool, slightly dirty suburb, BUT A SUBURB.

It may be a suburb in an urban area, but I'm uncomfortable with the term urban suburb...almost a contradiction in terms, and an obfuscation.

Again, Montrose is a suburb, regardless of what impression it leaves on exurbanites using it as a cut-through or dining destination !

Westbury is, and remains a LARGE (not small) suburb - thousands of homes. Tanglewilde, Tanglewood, Maplewood North/South, Ayrshire,

Oak Forest, The Heights and many, many others - suburbs. In fact there a couple dozen legit SUBURBS well inside the Beltway - at least.

Further, I'll note that some on this thread seem to think being a stickler for accuracy represents an inner loop bias, and implies we are snobs

because some newer developments, which developers want to label as suburbs - misleadingly - are in fact EXURBS, being miles and miles (and miles)

from the Houston suburban ring, much less the core. The word exurb was coined specifically to label this follow-up/continuing pattern of growth. Exurbs are not intrinsically evil unless they are developed without transportation in mind (especially transport to/from the core). However, labelling them inaccurately is unfair to the folks living in Houston's suburbs, who regardless of SF, $, or "amenities" enjoy the benefits of the "first rule of real estate" - location, location, location (i.e., proximity to all the city has to offer).

If your goal is a master-planned community (golf courses, enormous commuity pools, greenbelts) or a distant less-expensive home, there's nothing in the world wrong with that: just know and acknowledge that the suburbs are between you and downtown, because, with few exceptions, you are enjoying the EXURBS ! Developers, of course, want to label it a suburb because they want to de-emphasize the great distance to the core. That is understandable, but nevertheless disingenuous and I think, a little dishonest. Mischer, Kickerillo, et al don't get to rewrite the dictionary just because it's in their financial interest!!!

I guess renaming the exurbs the "sub-suburbs" is out of the question

[memebag]

Yes, I have been to Westbury. Since Westbury is inside the city limits, it is not a suburb of that same city.

So if Houston couldn't annex property as easily as it has, and Westbury was outside the city limits, then it would be suburban. That renders the distinction useless when discussing suburbs in different locations. We can't use city limits in the definition because of differences in local laws.

By that definition, then anyone not living with in about 1 square mile of downtown, on the inner-cusp of the Wards, is living in the suburbs. River Oaks, Montrose, Rice Village, Eastwood, Lindale Park, Denver Harbor, the Heights, etc, etc, - all still suburbs.

That's what I've been saying all along.

Meme, to answer your question (again)..

Your home, and most of the single family dwellings in ALL of the Houston metro, and outside the colonial northeast for that matter, are suburban in design. The construction type of home is helpful in identifying a suburb, but is not absolute.

I will contend that Westbury was a suburb once. You would leave Westbury and travel into the city for your needs. Now however, the city has grown (or annexed as you refer to) around Westbury. So its physically impossible for you to live in the suburbs.

Perhaps if Westbury and/or adjoining neighborhoods had incorporated, then indeed you could say that you live in the suburbs, and more specifically a suburb of Houston.

For now however, you simply live in the city of Houston, in a neighborhood called Westbury.

And that neighborhood is suburban, based on population density and land use.

When I was a kid, I lived outside what would become the beltway. Houston had just annexed part of our subdivision. My back fence was the city limit. Our street was inside Houston; the next street was outside. Land use, population density, home style, etc., was identical. If you're going to call the last street inside Houston "urban" and the first street outside Houston "suburban" then the terms are useless.

[KatieDidIt]

I agree with the exurban v. suburban statement. However, exurbanites will get totally bent out of shape at the term. Pitch a fit even, and claim they are totally self-sustaining, and we live in this horrible dirty place and our kids are gangstas.

Just as someone who lives in Tanglewood, West U, Memorial etc., will crinkle their nose when you catogorize them in the same "suburban" category as The Woodlands or Sugarland. While suburban has everything to do with layout and land use, it has become a definition of location in most people minds.

I just say I live in (fill in the blank subdivision) and leave it at that. Most people that live within Houston know where I'm talking about without putting it in any category.

Edit:Because I'm city edumicated and can't spell good.