GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[Montrose1100]

So, this club can't support the minority audience that wants to go there and it repels the white audience that no longer finds it relevant. White people in Houston don't feel comfortable around large groups of minorities. Many club owners actually try to push away the paying customers they have to lure them back, but it's too late by then. Hundreds of thousands of dollars later, the club owner is left scratching his head and looking through the help wanted section of the Chron.

I believe this happened at mBar.

I go to Hush every so often, and while I'm a major minority there, I've never had a real problem. Yes, once or twice some people were being rude or ugly to my friends and I, but that can happen anywhere.

[HtownWxBoy]

What happened to their webcam?... is it just me or is it no longer on their website?

[lockmat]

I was on there the other day and noticed it was gone too.

Anyone have it bookmarked?

[Jax]

http://www.onsiteview.com/viewer/remote_vi...ense=OSV-q8Q6Wc

[HtownWxBoy]

http://www.onsiteview.com/viewer/remote_vi...ense=OSV-q8Q6Wc

sank u

[Jax]

Hey, I don't think we're allowed to control the camera anymore.

[bkjones98]

For what it

[Trae]

Photos would be nice.

[HtownWxBoy]

http://www.costar.com/News/Article.aspx?id...52BE7C3744E8AF7

According to this article, proposals are in for 75% of the office space for HP already. Retail is still 50% leased.

[TheNiche]

FYI, I learned yesterday from Bill Denton that HP was originally supposed to have a W hotel on the site, but that it had been proposed to the City at a time when Denton was looking for subsidy and the City had put up the money for the Hilton Americas hotel, which was flagging. The City made Denton remove the hotel component from HP so that it wouldn't compete with their hotel, and now that market conditions have improved, it is too late to get it back.

Let this loss stand as a monument to government incompetence, a reminder to why the City needs to stay out of the planning and development business--because they suck at it.

[HtownWxBoy]

FYI, I learned yesterday from Bill Denton that HP was originally supposed to have a W hotel on the site, but that it had been proposed to the City at a time when Denton was looking for subsidy and the City had put up the money for the Hilton Americas hotel, which was flagging. The City made Denton remove the hotel component from HP so that it wouldn't compete with their hotel, and now that market conditions have improved, it is too late to get it back.

Let this loss stand as a monument to government incompetence, a reminder to why the City needs to stay out of the planning and development business--because they suck at it.

There are plenty of wonderful surface lots Downtown that can still be turned into a W hotel. :-)

[bkjones98]

There are plenty of wonderful surface lots Downtown that can still be turned into a W hotel. :-)

"There are plenty of wonderful surface lots" that "stand as a monument to government incompetence, a reminder to why the City needs to stay out of the planning and development business--because they suck at it."

I agree though. I want someone to spruce up the old Texaco building or the old building just west of it.

[TheNiche]

I agree though. I want someone to spruce up the old Texaco building or the old building just west of it.

W isn't known for adaptive reuse.

[RedScare]

So, the City refused to give Denton a SUBSIDY (read: corporate welfare) for an unneeded hotel, and you call this a monument to government incompetence? I call this a monument to corporate arrogance. If this W is such a jewel, why is it only worth building if the City subsidizes it?

Someone should give the City a medal for not giving away tax dollars for things that are not needed.

[TheNiche]

So, the City refused to give Denton a SUBSIDY (read: corporate welfare) for an unneeded hotel, and you call this a monument to government incompetence? I call this a monument to corporate arrogance. If this W is such a jewel, why is it only worth building if the City subsidizes it?

Someone should give the City a medal for not giving away tax dollars for things that are not needed.

In a pure sense, I agree with you, and I'd ask the same question as to whether the Pavilions, Hilton Americas, Minutemaid Park, the GRB, Discovery Green, Root Memorial Park, or Toyota Center were worth it. But the City is already very much in the subsidy game and they've already set a lot of precedents, so not everything is so clear.

But it wasn't so much that the W wasn't worth building unless the City subsidized it as it was that the rest of Pavilions wouldn't have been worth building if the City hadn't subsidized it. And my chief complaint is that the City threatened to withhold subsidy--killing Pavilions--unless something that was able to survive on its own was removed from the plans. Here we are, several years later, and they aren't going to get another hotel to compliment those that are already packed and that will charge high room rates, contributing to the occupancy tax and to property taxes.

Summary: they shot themselves in the foot.

[Houston19514]

In a pure sense, I agree with you, and I'd ask the same question as to whether the Pavilions, Hilton Americas, Minutemaid Park, the GRB, Discovery Green, Root Memorial Park, or Toyota Center were worth it. But the City is already very much in the subsidy game and they've already set a lot of precedents, so not everything is so clear.

But it wasn't so much that the W wasn't worth building unless the City subsidized it as it was that the rest of Pavilions wouldn't have been worth building if the City hadn't subsidized it. And my chief complaint is that the City threatened to withhold subsidy--killing Pavilions--unless something that was able to survive on its own was removed from the plans. Here we are, several years later, and they aren't going to get another hotel to compliment those that are already packed and that will charge high room rates, contributing to the occupancy tax and to property taxes.

Summary: they shot themselves in the foot.

If, as you say, the hotel was "able to survive on its own" then surely Denton or someone else will go ahead and grab one of the many other nearby surface lots and build it. No problem.

[RedScare]

Sorry...not buying.

To give a subsidy to a developer to build a hotel to compete against the hotel the city just built...THAT is shooting yourself in the foot. Telling a developer that he does not get the subsidy if he competes with our hotel is efficient use of city funds.

Like 19514 said...IF this hotel is all that, a smart businessman will build it without subsidy. Sounds to me like these developers are so ate up with government welfare that they don't even know how to exist in a free market economy. Sounds like Niche can't do math without government handouts, either.

[TheNiche]

If, as you say, the hotel was "able to survive on its own" then surely Denton or someone else will go ahead and grab one of the many other nearby surface lots and build it. No problem.

Depends entirely on the price of downtown dirt. It's more expensive just lately than it had been a couple years back, and W probably wouldn't want to be both too far east of Main Street and too far south of Discovery Green. If they were right on one or the other, I can see it happening pretty easily, but not so much if they had to be on the block where Josephine's is or another block in that area.

[TheNiche]

Sorry...not buying.

To give a subsidy to a developer to build a hotel to compete against the hotel the city just built...THAT is shooting yourself in the foot. Telling a developer that he does not get the subsidy if he competes with our hotel is efficient use of city funds.

Like 19514 said...IF this hotel is all that, a smart businessman will build it without subsidy. Sounds to me like these developers are so ate up with government welfare that they don't even know how to exist in a free market economy. Sounds like Niche can't do math without government handouts, either.

I don't think you get what I'm saying. They killed something that could coexist with their own project and generate lots and lots of tax revenue for them, never mind that it would better serve consumers, generate employment, and help support downtown retail, with all kinds of positive secondary economic and fiscal impacts to the City and the region. It was what I like to call stupid.

[RedScare]

They didn't "kill" anything. They said we are not subsidizing competition for our own hotel. That is smart for taxpayers. Only a developer would not understand it. They did, however, subsidize entertainment venues for people staying in the City's hotel.

I do not subsidize the rent for lawyers to move into my building, and the City does not give subsidies to build hotels next door to its own. I call that intelligent.

[TheNiche]

They didn't "kill" anything. They said we are not subsidizing competition for our own hotel. That is smart for taxpayers. Only a developer would not understand it. They did, however, subsidize entertainment venues for people staying in the City's hotel.

I do not subsidize the rent for lawyers to move into my building, and the City does not give subsidies to build hotels next door to its own. I call that intelligent.

You consider lawyers working in your same building to be competition? That's absurd. Who chooses a lawyer because they work in a particular building and not the one next door? And if its a lawyer with a different specialty or with a reputation such that they can charge vastly different prices, then they just aren't competitive with you in the first place. Please use better analogies.

And why you would ever even consider subsidizing anyone in the first place is my question? At least the City would have the excuse that its trying to make bad decisions on a consistent basis.

[KinkaidAlum]

Depends entirely on the price of downtown dirt. It's more expensive just lately than it had been a couple years back, and W probably wouldn't want to be both too far east of Main Street and too far south of Discovery Green. If they were right on one or the other, I can see it happening pretty easily, but not so much if they had to be on the block where Josephine's is or another block in that area.

Why?

One of the most successful AND expensive hotels in the city is the Four Seasons. It sits East of Main. It wont front Discovery Green. In fact, for many years it felt completely disconnected from most of downtown outside of the Houston Center.

Hotels make it off of brand identification, quality, and service. Location plays a factor but to act is if a change of one or two blocks in downtown Houston is a deal breaker is a bit strange.

[TheNiche]

Why?

One of the most successful AND expensive hotels in the city is the Four Seasons. It sits East of Main. It wont front Discovery Green. In fact, for many years it felt completely disconnected from most of downtown outside of the Houston Center.

Hotels make it off of brand identification, quality, and service. Location plays a factor but to act is if a change of one or two blocks in downtown Houston is a deal breaker is a bit strange.

It was built prior to Discovery Green ever having been conceived. For a long time, it filled a niche as the default convention hotel and also as the premier hotel serving the Houston Center complex. This may come as a shock to you, but 1981 was 26 years ago, not yesterday. Lots of things have changed since then.

[NewMND]

Oh well, too bad so sad. The W is now going to Uptown, in that River Oaks District project. There was rumor around these boards of a Mandarin possibly going downtown, any news on that? Or was it just rumor?

[ricco67]

Oh well, too bad so sad. The W is now going to Uptown, in that River Oaks District project. There was rumor around these boards of a Mandarin possibly going downtown, any news on that? Or was it just rumor?

I haven't heard of anything like that, but it would certainly be an interesting development (so to speak).

Getting back on topic:

While driving by today, I noticed a couple of odd things about the construction;

There has been little headway on block #1 (Main/Dallas/Polk/Fannin) and the base for a crane goes unoccupied. Is this planned, did the rain affect construction, is there a crane shortage?

Also, it looks (to my totally untrained eye) that they're almost ready to "merge" the 2nd and 3rd blocks over San Jacinto. Does ANYONE have an inside scoop on this?

[Jax]

I've noticed on the webcam that not much has been happening on the block closest to main, but I believe they just poured some concrete this week, so it looks like they are finally about ready to start vertical construction. You can see pictures of that block if you go into the archives. I think the webcam takes a picture of that block at certain intervals and archives them. I might try to take some photos of my own this weekend if I have a chance to go out there.

[KinkaidAlum]

It was built prior to Discovery Green ever having been conceived. For a long time, it filled a niche as the default convention hotel and also as the premier hotel serving the Houston Center complex. This may come as a shock to you, but 1981 was 26 years ago, not yesterday. Lots of things have changed since then.

Which is exactly my point.

A new W Hotel on the East side of Main would have the advantage of numerous amenities that the Four Seasons lacked for multiple decades! When the Four Seasons was built, there was no Minute Maid Park, Toyota Center, Discovery Green, or Houston Pavilions. Heck, for the first 6 years, there was no George R Brown Convention Center either!

It is complete developer hogwash to claim that the City of Houston killed the W deal by not giving it a subsidy.

Denton's group received a hefty subsidy for the Pavilions project back when it was supposed to have apartments, condos, and possibly a hotel. In the end, they received the same subsidy for essentially building an office tower and an outdoor mall. They blamed the high cost of underground parking for killing the residential and are now apparently blaming the City for killing the hotel. I simply don't buy it.

Why can the Omni enter the downtown market today without a subsidy?

How can Trammell Crow, Hines, Brookfield, and Crescent make plays to develop office space without subsidies?

[TheNiche]

A new W Hotel on the East side of Main would have the advantage of numerous amenities that the Four Seasons lacked for multiple decades! When the Four Seasons was built, there was no Minute Maid Park, Toyota Center, Discovery Green, or Houston Pavilions. Heck, for the first 6 years, there was no George R Brown Convention Center either!

It is complete developer hogwash to claim that the City of Houston killed the W deal by not giving it a subsidy.

I still don't think you grasp what has happened. This is the timeline:

1) Bill Denton wants subsidy for Houston Pavilions, of which W is a part.

2) City balks at any hotel component being part of Pavilions. They make subsidies contingent upon the hotel component being removed.

3) Denton removes hotel component.

4) City grants Denton subsidies.

Bottom line: the City refused to give subsidies to a developer unless the developer promised to build less than was viable on the site.

Denton's group received a hefty subsidy for the Pavilions project back when it was supposed to have apartments, condos, and possibly a hotel. In the end, they received the same subsidy for essentially building an office tower and an outdoor mall. They blamed the high cost of underground parking for killing the residential and are now apparently blaming the City for killing the hotel. I simply don't buy it.

So what you're saying is that they're all just a bunch of filthy liars that are slandering the City and that could've made money by including a residential and hotel component, but chose not to because they apparently don't like profit? Is that it?

Why can the Omni enter the downtown market today without a subsidy?

How can Trammell Crow, Hines, Brookfield, and Crescent make plays to develop office space without subsidies?

The Omni redevelopment has a better location.

Developing office space isn't the same as developing hotels; in fact, if Denton had known a year ago what he knows now, he said that he'd have built two or three times as much office space into HP.

Edited August 25, 2007 by TheNiche

[Houston19514]

I still don't think you grasp what has happened. This is the timeline:

1) Bill Denton wants subsidy for Houston Pavilions, of which W is a part.

2) City balks at any hotel component being part of Pavilions. They make subsidies contingent upon the hotel component being removed.

3) Denton removes hotel component.

4) City grants Denton subsidies.

Bottom line: the City refused to give subsidies to a developer unless the developer promised to build less than was viable on the site.

So what you're saying is that they're all just a bunch of filthy liars that are slandering the City and that could've made money by including a residential and hotel component, but chose not to because they apparently don't like profit? Is that it?

The Omni redevelopment has a better location.

Developing office space isn't the same as developing hotels; in fact, if Denton had known a year ago what he knows now, he said that he'd have built two or three times as much office space into HP.

Niche, we all understand, and we understood your very first post. In fact, I think we all understood it quite well. Perhaps better than you meant for us to.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Houston19514

[ricco67]

It could be a mixed blessing that the office portion isn't as grand that they originally wanted.

Smaller businesses would be able to find good space and have plenty of amenities for its size as opposed to getting into a bigger building. a "starter" or "intermediate" office for a growing business, while a larger company can have entire floors for a more reasonable price.

Edited August 26, 2007 by ricco67