Houston Pavilions, Now Green Street

[totheskies]

Aren't we forgetting something?? HOB is a smashing success... probably the biggest entertainment addition in Houston of last year. XXI is doing ok (unless the girls are just going into the store and stealing the yellow bags so they can LOOK like they bought something). And the eateries are making probably making it on lunch business alone. So the totality of Houston Pavilions is no bueno yet, but you can't exactly yank HOB or XXI... they are making money and bringing people into downtown.

Worst case scenario here... Lucky Strike pulls out, and HP has to find another tenant. HOPEFULLY they'll try to find another bowling alley b/c that would be really cool to have in downtown. But something like a Dave & Busters would probably do ok also... as long as it's oriented in activity and entertainment.

[musicman]

Aren't we forgetting something?? HOB is a smashing success... probably the biggest entertainment addition in Houston of last year. So the totality of Houston Pavilions is no bueno yet, but you can't exactly yank HOB or XXI... they are making money and bringing people into downtown.

what data were you reading that makes HOB a smashing success?

[kylejack]

what data were you reading that makes HOB a smashing success?

They say they have "significantly exceeded expectations", which to me is stiff-shirt talk for smashing success. I know a number of their shows have sold out.

Edited February 16, 2009 by kylejack

[musicman]

They say they have "significantly exceeded expectations", which to me is stiff-shirt talk for smashing success. I know a number of their shows have sold out.

during a show isn't the issue. the times i've been there, the restaurant portion has been pretty dead.

[kylejack]

Welp, then all they have to do is keep booking acts. I was sorry I missed the Willie Nelson show. I had to go out of town.

Anyway, I don't care for McC & Schmick's food, but they're doing very well every time I pass by, especially the bar during happy hour and beyond.

[totheskies]

what data were you reading that makes HOB a smashing success?

Alas, I have no data, but I'll try to hunt some up.

Several shows have sold out, most shows have been near capacity. The restaurant portion seems to be doing ok (I see people there everytime I go by). They tend to stack up in the early evenings though, and there's less business during the actual showtimes.

[stjnky]

Any news on Polk St Grill?

I only have unsubstantiated hearsay. A pub owner I know who is pretty well plugged into the market says the Polk Street Pub isn't going to be happening.

[kylejack]

I saw a sign last night for Cork Wine Bar coming soon. Not sure when it was put up, but it wasn't there a couple months ago.

[gene]

great news

love the clear lake and pearland locations

my buddy adam plays acoustic shows at each

www.myspace.com/adamjermstad

[banking214]

This was in the Houston Press today.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/20...ons_reviews.php

Link to PDF:

http://offcite.org/wp-content/uploads/2009...n_pavilions.pdf

[crunchtastic]

This was in the Houston Press today.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/20...ons_reviews.php

Link to PDF:

http://offcite.org/wp-content/uploads/2009...n_pavilions.pdf

I'm sort of surprised more people haven't zeroed in on the lack of tunnel connectivity. (Or maybe they have.)

[lockmat]

This was in the Houston Press today.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/20...ons_reviews.php

Link to PDF:

http://offcite.org/wp-content/uploads/2009...n_pavilions.pdf

One, it's not fair to judge it in this economy.

Though the Pavilions is presented as an urban place, the developers' backgrounds are in traditional covered malls, and it shows in two missed opportunities at Houston Pavilions.

[left]

I don't think this is a legitimate excuse as to why they made HP mall-like. Most of us are not developers or architects, but we (and probably anyone else in Houston) could have told that stores facing the street instead of a hidden corridor would have been 100 times better. Maybe they just really wanted to build those skywalks??

But who knows? Perhaps the Houston Pavilions will succeed as its antecedent in Denver did, with success being defined as drawing enough wealthy professionals that the stores thrive, filling the city coffers with tax dollars.

It will.

Edited March 5, 2009 by lockmat

[kylejack]

I'm sort of surprised more people haven't zeroed in on the lack of tunnel connectivity. (Or maybe they have.)

I think it was definitely an error in judgment, if they even had a choice. The tunnels are privately owned, so maybe their access was refused.

[Jax]

I agree that there needs to be better continuity between areas of interest downtown. People don't like walking past 5 parking lots or 5 blocks of abandoned buildings to get from one destination to another. We were all hoping that the Pavilions wouldn't just be a success but that they would also encourage more development nearby (ie along main). I haven't seen much evidence of that yet, except I think I saw the ground level retail in that ugly parking garage at Walker being built out.

What ever happened to the American Apparel or the development that was supposed to go up next to Josephine's across from House of Blues?

[crunchtastic]

A place such as HP might encourage more development with the promise of addtional bodies in a the general area, but that development is likely just going to be another stand alone retail pod, or hotel. Proximity isn't the same thing as connectivity. So how do you go from one to the other? I don't see how without a permananet resident population, which is why I am underwhelmed with HP.

[roadrunner]

It was kind of hard to imagine this being a success based on the timing and the current economic environment.

[swtsig]

It was kind of hard to imagine this being a success based on the timing and the current economic environment.

and the fact that it's basically just a glorified outdoor mall. for the life of me i still can't figure out why they didn't put a significant amount of street level retail that actually faced the STREET.

3 blocks of downtown and this is what they decide upon??? it's a farce.

[lockmat]

and the fact that it's basically just a glorified outdoor mall.

Better than a normal mall, no? At least it's glorified, which is pretty good.

[TheNiche]

3 blocks of downtown and this is what they decide upon??? it's a farce.

...and you, as a citizen of Houston, paid to finance a significant fraction of this farce. Whose fault is that?

[DrLan34]

HP is not as big as a success due to the economic situation right now. i really think that is the main reason. if oil was at 140 a barrel this place would almost be filled. This would mean another place to party downtown other than the preston at main area. I think when the economy gets better this place will be a big success.

Residential would have been awesome but at least we have 3 major blocks taken up. So 3 surface lots taken up and they are not just office space. Now the other empty lots all around the exxon building can hopefully start to fill up with residential. so maybe not having residential on top of hp will allow those surface lots to be taken up. I'm already happy to see the YMCA moving forward.

I know once those wine bars open up I will be hanging out there more.

[Jax]

I was just at Guadalajara Del Centro. It was actually pretty busy. Walking through the empty parts of the Pavilions was kind of depressing but the places that were open were surprisingly busy at least.

[Houston19514]

HP is not as big as a success due to the economic situation right now. i really think that is the main reason. if oil was at 140 a barrel this place would almost be filled. This would mean another place to party downtown other than the preston at main area. I think when the economy gets better this place will be a big success.

Residential would have been awesome but at least we have 3 major blocks taken up. So 3 surface lots taken up and they are not just office space. Now the other empty lots all around the exxon building can hopefully start to fill up with residential. so maybe not having residential on top of hp will allow those surface lots to be taken up. I'm already happy to see the YMCA moving forward.

I know once those wine bars open up I will be hanging out there more.

Exactly. The complaints about the lack of connectivity are a little unfair. HP provides three blocks of connectivity to downtown. It is hardly fair to blame them for the remaining empty lots.

And, again, Denver Pavilions has been pretty darned successful in downtown Denver and it's retail is also mostly inwardly-facing, towards "interior" passageways. That will not be an issue, once it fills up with tenants (and once the remaining outwardly-facing spaces are filled).

[lockmat]

I was just at Guadalajara Del Centro. It was actually pretty busy. Walking through the empty parts of the Pavilions was kind of depressing but the places that were open were surprisingly busy at least.

I think that's the key.

With the exception of Lids (which I think heavily relies on bigger stores), if they're open, they'll come.

[InTheLoop]

I'm way too familiar w/Denver Pavillions - it may have been an initial success, but it is now very unimpressive.

Turnover was high even prior to the recession.

I thought then, and now, that it was disjointed with panhandlers just on the periphery at all times.

They also just lost Virgin Megastore with more vacancies to come. (All VMs are history now)

Locals I know have no civic pride in the rapidly aging facility, and "improvements" are unimpressive. It's a mutt.

Hope HouPav sees the devolution of the Denver Pavillions and learns how not to reinvigorate D'town.

(of course D'town/LoDo Denver makes D'town Hou look like an evening ghost town, so...doesn't bode well for HouPav IMHO.)

That would be true IMO irrespective of recessions.

[roadrunner]

I think if Houston's convention business downtown continues to grow, in the long run this will be fine. It's definitely not a tourist destination or anything (not really sure what is in this city), but it still will be a nice little nightlife complex to complement GRB/DG....similar to Bayou Place and the Theater District.

[totheskies]

Yeah I thought the HoustonPress article was way too presumptive.

We live in Houston, Texas... the land of no zoning, skyscrapers that can sprout out of literally nowhere... and we're gonna criticize HP for being disjointed from the activity centers of Downtown?? Give me a BREAK. Where's the criticism for those who decided to build the GRB and the Theater District on opposite ends of downtown? Where's the criticism for all of those people that decided to gut the grocery stores/retail from the 40s and 50s, rip up the streetcar lines, and literally "pave paradise"? Surely the awesome burden of connectivity for the Houston CBD does not fall entirely to one brave little development that decided to open in the midst of Recessionary vice. And yeah, it's not tunnel connected... God (or other deity of of your choice) forbid that we have some retail in this town that is exposed to the open air. Yeah, yeah I know... HP facing inward really sucks, I agree with that. But its nothing they can't fix with some aggressive signage (and more tennants, which hopefully will come).

We're just shy of 5 months into this thing... I'm by no means impressed with Houston Pavilions, but I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, and not compose it's epilogue and then seal the coffin door.

Edited March 6, 2009 by totheskies

[Daniepwils]

What ever happened to the American Apparel or the development that was supposed to go up next to Josephine's across from House of Blues?

That is dead I think. Also you are a block off. This was to go up at the corner of Main and Dallas (across from XXI and Macy's.

[musicman]

I was just at Guadalajara Del Centro. It was actually pretty busy. Walking through the empty parts of the Pavilions was kind of depressing but the places that were open were surprisingly busy at least.

how much was your bill?

[crunchtastic]

Is it the same Guadalajara as over on 59 at Kirby?

[musicman]

Is it the same Guadalajara as over on 59 at Kirby?

yep but foo foo'd out.

[Jax]

My enchilada was $11 and I had a beer. $15 in total or so...

[woolie]

Whoever suggested dismantling HP, then spreading outwards in a shockwave of radical deconstruction had a great idea. This city isn't salvageable, probably best to tear it down and start over. Once everything to the beltway is gone and Allen's landing is once again a mosquito infested swamp, once all evidence of human habitation in this place has long been erased from history, then this failed 170-year experiment in speculative real-estate can be forgotten, and at last the great rebirth of Houston can begin.

[DrLan34]

the guadalajara is pretty sweet and they have a nice lounge place upstairs to get some drinks before hittin up main street

[houstonartstudent]

So has anyone seen the cool new bus shelter they installed off of Fannin at the Pavilions? It should really help protect people waiting for the bus from the weather...too bad they placed it under the covered part of the circular walkway that already served that purpose I'll be sure to take a picture soon so you know where Metro's money is going rather than the light rail

[TheNiche]

I'm way too familiar w/Denver Pavillions - it may have been an initial success, but it is now very unimpressive.

Turnover was high even prior to the recession.

I thought then, and now, that it was disjointed with panhandlers just on the periphery at all times.

They also just lost Virgin Megastore with more vacancies to come. (All VMs are history now)

Locals I know have no civic pride in the rapidly aging facility, and "improvements" are unimpressive. It's a mutt.

I've observed that entertainment-oriented retail seems to follow this pattern as a general rule. I'm not sure that it has much of anything to do with design, layout, or access (in this case). It's just the nature of the business, not unlike bars or nightclubs.

We live in Houston, Texas... the land of no zoning, skyscrapers that can sprout out of literally nowhere... and we're gonna criticize HP for being disjointed from the activity centers of Downtown?? Give me a BREAK. Where's the criticism for those who decided to build the GRB and the Theater District on opposite ends of downtown? Where's the criticism for all of those people that decided to gut the grocery stores/retail from the 40s and 50s, rip up the streetcar lines, and literally "pave paradise"? Surely the awesome burden of connectivity for the Houston CBD does not fall entirely to one brave little development that decided to open in the midst of Recessionary vice.

Convention and Theater traffic aren't really related. I'm not sure that there's much of a synergy. And certainly the history of the two districts are internally and comparatively disjointed; it is not only that one hand could not have known what the other was doing--individual fingers acted apart from one another, and the palm, too.

In the context of their era (its culture, economy, aesthetic, and perception of history), it's hard to blame people who drained the life from downtowns across the country in the name of 'urban renewal'. Were any tears shed, recently, when Gulfgate Mall was torn down and rebuilt as a power center? No, we celebrated. It was a crappy and dingy mid-century mall; just like Radio Row was a crappy enclave of dingy 19th-century buildings before it was wiped clean in the early 60's for the construction of the original WTC towers. Buildings are a lot like cars, in that they're prized by the masses when they're new, shunned by all in middle age, then prized once more by the elite in old age--and even then only after the surviving buildings are a rarity, essentially collectors' pieces.

[totheskies]

Convention and Theater traffic aren't really related. I'm not sure that there's much of a synergy. And certainly the history of the two districts are internally and comparatively disjointed; it is not only that one hand could not have known what the other was doing--individual fingers acted apart from one another, and the palm, too.

In the context of their era (its culture, economy, aesthetic, and perception of history), it's hard to blame people who drained the life from downtowns across the country in the name of 'urban renewal'. Were any tears shed, recently, when Gulfgate Mall was torn down and rebuilt as a power center? No, we celebrated. It was a crappy and dingy mid-century mall; just like Radio Row was a crappy enclave of dingy 19th-century buildings before it was wiped clean in the early 60's for the construction of the original WTC towers. Buildings are a lot like cars, in that they're prized by the masses when they're new, shunned by all in middle age, then prized once more by the elite in old age--and even then only after the surviving buildings are a rarity, essentially collectors' pieces.

In what way are they "non-related"? Is it b/c you expect the Ballet and Opera-goers to want to eat out at fancier restaurants than the conventioneers? I guess that's the case for the "old guard", but I have a sneaking suspicions that Gen-Xers and Millennials might change that.

[Houston19514]

There's an article in today's Houston Business Journal about Warehouse Live opening a third venue called the Green Room. In the article they refer to the "uber-successful" House of Blues and say that it (the House of Blues) is already planning an expansion.

[TheNiche]

In what way are they "non-related"? Is it b/c you expect the Ballet and Opera-goers to want to eat out at fancier restaurants than the conventioneers? I guess that's the case for the "old guard", but I have a sneaking suspicions that Gen-Xers and Millennials might change that.

Oh, ok. I wasn't clear that you were getting at retail offerings. I thought you were just talking about some kind of synergy between convention centers and theaters, directly. That'd be a fair point except that downtowns don't occur spontaneously in a master-planned format, much less under the direction of a single entity operating from the same vantage point over a period of centuries. Real life isn't like Sim City.

Even an environment like the University of Houston, where there's a massive chunk of land under one deep-pocketed owner seems to completely rearrange their master plan about every ten to fifteen years based on the most recent fads in architecture and planning, creating a disjointed puzzle out of their campus.

[houstonartstudent]

make that two bus shelters under the already-covered area!...what is this world coming to?!?

[Gooch]

Buildings are a lot like cars, in that they're prized by the masses when they're new, shunned by all in middle age, then prized once more by the elite in old age--and even then only after the surviving buildings are a rarity, essentially collectors' pieces.

That's an excellent analogy! But don't forget carmakers also built the Yugo.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Gooch

[totheskies]

Oh, ok. I wasn't clear that you were getting at retail offerings. I thought you were just talking about some kind of synergy between convention centers and theaters, directly. That'd be a fair point except that downtowns don't occur spontaneously in a master-planned format, much less under the direction of a single entity operating from the same vantage point over a period of centuries. Real life isn't like Sim City.

Even an environment like the University of Houston, where there's a massive chunk of land under one deep-pocketed owner seems to completely rearrange their master plan about every ten to fifteen years based on the most recent fads in architecture and planning, creating a disjointed puzzle out of their campus.

If you're just referring to layout then I'd have to argue that HP did a pretty good job (or maybe a better way to say is that they made a good guess), at least from the perspective of creating an "activity node". Eventhough it's displaced by a block, HP is in between Macy's and Houston Center. This has the potential to create shopping district for downtown... it's a gonna take a while in this rough time, but I think the potential is still there.

[HtownWxBoy]

Houston Pavilions tenants keep hope

Houston Pavilions

According to ABC13, Lucky Strike Lanes is close to securing new investors and it could be open by early summer.

[Montrose1100]

In what way are they "non-related"? Is it b/c you expect the Ballet and Opera-goers to want to eat out at fancier restaurants than the conventioneers? I guess that's the case for the "old guard", but I have a sneaking suspicions that Gen-Xers and Millennials might change that.

If I wore a tux (as most gentlemen do.. not saying I'm a gentleman, but others who attend), to the Opera, you wouldn't find me in the same resteraunt as the Gun Show crowd. It's not a snobby remark, but if one is dressed in such attire, you usually don't see them mingling in everyday eateries. But then again I know a couple of people who went to McDonalds before prom...

[totheskies]

If I wore a tux (as most gentlemen do.. not saying I'm a gentleman, but others who attend), to the Opera, you wouldn't find me in the same resteraunt as the Gun Show crowd. It's not a snobby remark, but if one is dressed in such attire, you usually don't see them mingling in everyday eateries. But then again I know a couple of people who went to McDonalds before prom...

ROFL!! I'm a musician... let me be more specific... a classical musician. Do you know any of us??? If so, that should answer the question of where we will or will not go while wearing a tux.

[Montrose1100]

ROFL!! I'm a musician... let me be more specific... a classical musician. Do you know any of us??? If so, that should answer the question of where we will or will not go while wearing a tux.

I was talking about the general audience... but yes, I do know several musicians that play classical pieces. People of all different walks of life, (including, but not limited to), hippies, hillbillies, and hipsters.

[totheskies]

BTW, I forgot to give my latest "HP report"...

I rode the Rail up to HP on Saturday afternoon (around 4pm). I figured with the rain and dreariness, it would be quite dead. Couldn't have been further from the truth. I walked around and saw a decent group of people in every establishment EXCEPT for Clique Salon. Guadalajara was packed... absolutely PACKED at 4:30pm. I saw at least 20 ForeverXXI bags just walking around the complex. I went to Books-a-Million and bought a cookbook... I probably saw 40-50 people in there the same time I was there. For a dreary Saturday, I was quite impressed.

I probably go by/through HP about once a week (I normally don't walk all the way through or buy anything. But I'll say this... in the three weeks it's been open, Guadalajara has been a home run. That place is packed every single evening, and has a steady stream of people from open to close. From what I've seen, it's the next strongest venue at HP after House of Blues.

[TxDave]

I visited HP during my recent visit.

The current desolation is a little sad, but it a nice center ready to take off as soon as the economy turns around.

At the very least the existing potential for new retail and entertainment is better than 3 vacant, full-block parking lots.

[Houston19514]

BTW, I forgot to give my latest "HP report"...

I rode the Rail up to HP on Saturday afternoon (around 4pm). I figured with the rain and dreariness, it would be quite dead. Couldn't have been further from the truth. I walked around and saw a decent group of people in every establishment EXCEPT for Clique Salon. Guadalajara was packed... absolutely PACKED at 4:30pm. I saw at least 20 ForeverXXI bags just walking around the complex. I went to Books-a-Million and bought a cookbook... I probably saw 40-50 people in there the same time I was there. For a dreary Saturday, I was quite impressed.

I probably go by/through HP about once a week (I normally don't walk all the way through or buy anything. But I'll say this... in the three weeks it's been open, Guadalajara has been a home run. That place is packed every single evening, and has a steady stream of people from open to close. From what I've seen, it's the next strongest venue at HP after House of Blues.

Get out! We all know this place is doomed to failure and nobody will every frequent any of its establishments. You're starting to sound like some of the lunatic posters who keep insisting that people are actually using and enjoying Discovery Green.

(and, btw, I happened by Discovery Green yesterday afternoon just before 2:00 and it was swarming with people, seemingly enjoying themselves.)

Edited March 19, 2009 by Houston19514

[samagon]

Get out! We all know this place is doomed to failure and nobody will every frequent any of its establishments. You're starting to sound like some of the lunatic posters who keep insisting that people are actually using and enjoying Discovery Green.

(and, btw, I happened by Discovery Green yesterday afternoon just before 2:00 and it was swarming with people, seemingly enjoying themselves.)

Those people were just cardboard cutouts, using clever ILM techniques they are made to look as though they are real and enjoying themselves.

I hope that the HP doesn't turn into T&C v2.0 seeing as that was opened in the midst of a great recession as well, but since there isn't another mall within 10 miles, (or worse less than a mile away with better access) it may work out better.

[totheskies]

I still advocate that HP is on the whole a smart idea, and in a good location. However they did take the "Houston way out" on the project by cutting out the residential portion, and building the cheapest possible structure they could get away with, so that sucks. Still, this type of development can almost survive on concert-goers and conventioneers alone. It's also one of the few evening venues on the rail line which CAN attract the hundreds of thousands of workers, patients, students and visitors from the Medical Center/ Museum district. So recession or not, there are lots of good signs for HP.

On a personal note... I'm in New Orleans today... talk about street level retail JEEEEEZ!

Edited March 20, 2009 by totheskies