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Seriously... most of it is not even open yet... good lord give it some time.

No kidding! I went down there the other day and i saw huge potential, wait until the whole thing is leased out before saying it sucks. I don't know why every body in this forum is so negative all the time.

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I'm taking one of my girlfriends there after the Ottmar Liebert concert on the 8th. I'm sure she'll love it.

Uh... ? Anyway. The bartender at the HOB says that they are still working out their kinks. We'll see.

I do hope they will sell a Metro Bus Stop Action Playset. Complete with a homeless bum, litter, and stain/urine/vomit appliques. Metro police, ambulance, and innocent bystanders sold separately.

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No kidding! I went down there the other day and i saw huge potential, wait until the whole thing is leased out before saying it sucks. I don't know why every body in this forum is so negative all the time.

sometimes being realistic can be taken as negative when it is not.....usually big projects like this are fully or nearly fully leased before completion and all the stores open at almost the exact same time especially with the holiday season coming

second I think it has been proven time and again in cities the world over that "just a bunch of shops and restaurants" clustered in any form or fashion alone is not a driver of business for that cluster

I have not been to HP yet, but I see nothing so far that makes me think of it as anything different than The Park Shops or even Bayou Place or really any other mall or collection of stores or entertainment and stores in Houston

I think most people were excited by the concept of office, residential, and retail all in the same space.....when the office component shrank and the residential went away completely I think most see it as I do as just another collection of stores, restaurants, and some entertainment

I think many may wonder as I do what will DRIVE business to this location.....so far after it has opened many including several who have been there still wonder about that.....and often when a large new development like this has trouble filling all the spaces and or getting the stores opened in a timely fashion it rightly makes people question what will DRIVE the business to this location

I also do grow tired of people shooting for the "upscale" when again I think it has been shown that "upscale" offerings in random location is not a driver of business....upscale locations IMO end up all in one location because the drivers of the upscale business exist in a location near there....I also feel that HoB may well be short lived because of the trendiness of the whole concept and others like it....and that is a bad thing for a development to try and hang their hat on

I wish HP no ill will....I am not the biggest pusher of "mixed use" but I think in this case dropping most of the "mix" was a big mistake....I also think trying to ignore parking issues in Houston of all places is a big mistake and that includes offering expensive pay parking as an option

I hope HP does very well....but I have concerns that it will not do nearly as well as planned and I think it has to do with dropping he vision that made it such a discussion point on forums like these in the first place....can I see why some of the "mix" was dropped.....yes from a short term perspective.....but things like HP should not be built with the short in mind....unless you like to lose money in the short term and possibly much more in the longer term

I wish it te best....I will visit one day....I still happen to like regular malls as well....but that is all I really see HP as now....a mall....downtown

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second I think it has been proven time and again in cities the world over that "just a bunch of shops and restaurants" clustered in any form or fashion alone is not a driver of business for that cluster

Actually, it has been proven the world over that clusters of retail or restaurants DO drive business. What do you think the Galleria and the surrounding Uptown area is? Rodeo Drive? Chicago's Miracle Mile? Rice Village? Shopping malls themselves?

As for most people being excited about "mixed use", I would change that to most people on HAIF, a group easily excited by New Urbanist buzzwords, but as Niche noted, a couple of hundred resident plopped in the middle of this development would not make a bit of difference. As it is, there numerous apartments, condos and hotels surrounding HP...not enough, perhaps, but certainly a lot more than 120 apartments originally planned at HP.

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Actually, it has been proven the world over that clusters of retail or restaurants DO drive business. What do you think the Galleria and the surrounding Uptown area is? Rodeo Drive? Chicago's Miracle Mile? Rice Village? Shopping malls themselves?

As for most people being excited about "mixed use", I would change that to most people on HAIF, a group easily excited by New Urbanist buzzwords, but as Niche noted, a couple of hundred resident plopped in the middle of this development would not make a bit of difference. As it is, there numerous apartments, condos and hotels surrounding HP...not enough, perhaps, but certainly a lot more than 120 apartments originally planned at HP.

all of the places you mentioned came to exist AFTER the actual people were living around that area......what was first Briargrove and Tanglewood or the Galleria....I don't know 100% for sure, but I am almost sure it was the subdivisions

what was first Beverly Hills or Rodeo Drive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodeo_Drive

I don't think wiki is the greatest source, but it looks like Berverly Hills was around long before the 70s which is when wiki say Rodeo really went upscale

was West U there first and Rice or was Rice Village there first

West U 1917

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_University_Place

Rice Village 1930s

http://www.ricevillageonline.com/

Tanglewood 1950s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanglewood,_Houston,_Texas

Galleria 1970-1971 (Happy Birthday Galleria! two days late)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Galleria

I am not saying over time that the Galeria and other things like it have not driven future development.....but I am saying the shoppers to support them existed before they were developed which is why they had initial success

and I agree 120 residences would have not made or broke the mall....but just as in the examples you cited like things cluster....so aiding that cluster with your own residences would have been a better start

Edited by TexasVines
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Unfortunately, I agree with this. If HP fails, which I think is definitely a possibility after seeing the finished product, it would be because the developers played it too safe. It tries to be all of the things above, but it comes short on all accounts.

I disagree that this is the finished product. It's still got a ways to go. Even when all the known tenants open, it will have 40% of space left to lease. I see that as a ton of possibility for approximately 120,000 sf of retail that's available. In fact, it would not surprise me that HP would be on a lot of retailers' radars after this economy hopefully straightens out. And if it straightens out round about the same time that 2010 Census numbers come out, we could be in for a construction frenzy in HP, the rest of downtown, and adjacent areas that could rival some of the go-go days of the past.

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not a change of argument at all.... said HP will not drive business to itself just as a collection of shops and that no collection of retail at high or low end has been the driver for its own business

it is JUST like Victory in Dallas.....build an arena, one hotel, and a bunch of high end retail and restaurants and then watch no one come....because there are hundreds of other options and just a collection of retail and restaurants planted somewhere does not draw people on its own....it needs to have an existing base of customers to draw to it to have success.....and even though downtown is large and full of people there are already tons of other options like Park Shops and street level stores and restaurants

you listed a bunch of places that came to exist after an area had become full of residents and affluent.....this is not currently the area around HP

all the examples you listed and I provided links for came to exist a decade or more after the customers were already in the area

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I disagree that this is the finished product. It's still got a ways to go. Even when all the known tenants open, it will have 40% of space left to lease. I see that as a ton of possibility for approximately 120,000 sf of retail that's available. In fact, it would not surprise me that HP would be on a lot of retailers' radars after this economy hopefully straightens out. And if it straightens out round about the same time that 2010 Census numbers come out, we could be in for a construction frenzy in HP, the rest of downtown, and adjacent areas that could rival some of the go-go days of the past.

This really is a distinct possibility. Even major retailers aren't as sophisticated as you might think, and the third-party demographics that they're using don't account for a lot of growth that I know has already occurred around downtown. And to the extent that growth is accounted for, it basically assumes that existing households only mature and that new households are similar to existing households. I can think of at least three zip codes that are going to look on paper like they transformed overnight.

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This really is a distinct possibility. Even major retailers aren't as sophisticated as you might think, and the third-party demographics that they're using don't account for a lot of growth that I know has already occurred around downtown. And to the extent that growth is accounted for, it basically assumes that existing households only mature and that new households are similar to existing households. I can think of at least three zip codes that are going to look on paper like they transformed overnight.

Well to be honest I must give you credit Niche. Your previous analysis about retailers and the Census vs. the changes we know are happening and lax Claritas data is how I understood the significance of the 2010 Census.

As to the three ZIPs--this could be fun...my guesses would be 77003, 77004, and maybe 77023. As much as I pull for 77002 and 77011, I just don't think they're there yet.

Edited by GovernorAggie
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It's unfortunate that Houston Pavillions opened when it did. Houston is in for a terrible 2009. I'm seeing projects sitting in limbo or being canceled and hearing rumors of massive layoffs in the energy industry. I don't see how any development that is relying on a large retail component has any hope of success in this environment.

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not a change of argument at all.... said HP will not drive business to itself just as a collection of shops and that no collection of retail at high or low end has been the driver for its own business

it is JUST like Victory in Dallas.....build an arena, one hotel, and a bunch of high end retail and restaurants and then watch no one come....because there are hundreds of other options and just a collection of retail and restaurants planted somewhere does not draw people on its own....it needs to have an existing base of customers to draw to it to have success.....and even though downtown is large and full of people there are already tons of other options like Park Shops and street level stores and restaurants

you listed a bunch of places that came to exist after an area had become full of residents and affluent.....this is not currently the area around HP

all the examples you listed and I provided links for came to exist a decade or more after the customers were already in the area

You present some interesting observations. Some make sense, but overall I disagree. One advantage HP has over Victory Park is it is in the middle of downtown , right off the rail line, and is close in proximity to the GRB, Discovery Green, and Hilton hotel. Also the tennant list is more for everyday people rather than being aimed primarily at the wealthy.

Remember, as 19154 pointed out in earlier in this thread, the main goal of H/P was to bring in more retail which is something that has been severely lacking for a long time. The few hundred tennants that were originally included in the plan make about as much difference as the nearby hotel occupants. You can't say this is like Park Shops. This development is at street level, it's outdoors, and more noticeable. Alot of my friends who came here to attend college at TSU have said that for the longest time, they were unaware that there was a mall inside the Houston Center. That's because of the lousy operating hours which only cater to the lunchtime crowd downtown.

Its funny how you've already drawn your verdict and you haven't even been down there yet. True, there's more i'd like to see there but I can say that i've already seen more patrons roaming around that area than i ever did before when that place was just parking lots. Furthermore, all the tennants haven't even shown up yet.

I think downtown Houston is on its way to following behind the footsteps of downtown Denver. Anybody who's visited Denver within the last 2 years will know that's a good model for what downtown Houston is shaping up to become. Just look at how Denver Pavilions by the same developers helped its downtown.

Edited by tierwestah
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Well to be honest I must give you credit Niche. Your previous analysis about retailers and the Census vs. the changes we know are happening and lax Claritas data is how I understood the significance of the 2010 Census.

As to the three ZIPs--this could be fun...my guesses would be 77003, 77004, and maybe 77023. As much as I pull for 77002 and 77011, I just don't think they're there yet.

-003 (East Downtown because there wasn't much population to begin with and they were all very poor), -007 (Rice Military, Cottage Grove, Memorial Heights, 6th Ward, 1st Ward, Heights), and -008 (Heights, Timbergrove).

And come to think of it, -002 includes a strip of Midtown, the edge of 4th Ward, and all the townhomes up along Commerce Street, so that'll make a big difference net of the population counted as living in group quarters.

Also, until just now -010 only included the population living at the Four Seasons. It'll probably quintuple, sextuple, or whatever, and may improve somewhat.

-004 still has a fairly dense cluster of 'ingidinous' population, so I suspect it'll see improvement, but not anything unexpected. -019's changes will be more striking because 4th Ward's indiginous population has mostly been displaced.

-023 hasn't really experienced a lot of new construction, so it's shift will probably be more gradual. The same story will apply to -009.

I'm not sure that -011 will show meaningful improvement. I own a property there, so I would love to see some progress reflected in the demographics, but I really think that that area is going to take another several years before it really starts ramping up.

I've spent a lot of time contemplating this--it probably shows.

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I think you created a fantasy in your mind that no developer could build. It is no wonder that you are unimpressed with what was actually built.

And you are impressed with it?

I didn't have any fantasy in mind, I was merely observing. I didn't actually WANT anything out of HP, as I find shopping, dining, entertainment and living options in other parts of Houston to be excellent. I have no secret hard-on to buy Gap khakis or even Cartier watches downtown.

If retail is, in fact, the answer to building downtown life past 6pm, and if we all agree that downtown life is our goal for whatever reason, I think this seems like poor execution. I think turning the shops inward does exactly what The Park Shops did -- it eliminates its interaction with the street and with the larger potential neighborhood that might begin to develop, had this been considered. If the types of retail planned were more destination oriented, people would have a reason to seek this place out and to come back often. If it had the mentality to create more of a sense of place to encourage a streetscape, it would draw even people not looking to shop, but merely gather. Again, this begins to build community -- something this collection of what looks like temporary buildings lacks.

In the end, for all its promise, it's really just an inward-facing outdoor mall that may serve office workers and a few people killing time before a concert or basketball game and no one else. The thing I find funny is that we already have one lame mall downtown that no one goes to, why does anyone think we need two?

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In the end, for all its promise, it's really just an inward-facing outdoor mall that may serve office workers and a few people killing time before a concert or basketball game and no one else. The thing I find funny is that we already have one lame mall downtown that no one goes to, why does anyone think we need two?

This is what really kills me. It's like an upgraded Park Shops, but it's two blocks away from the Park Shops. And the Park Shops sucks.

I do think HOB and Lucky Strike will be successful, though.

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I went to McCormick & Schmicks and they were taking reservations, and went to HOB and they were full for lunch. The important thing that you seem to forget is that they have 200K workers in downtown houston and it is connected to another huge employment center which is less than 5 miles away at the Med Center. The only thing missing is residential, but residential primarily provides retail purchasing only on nights after work and weekends. I use to work at Foley's and I can tell you that it was a mid-tier store with zero complimenting the store.

Forever 21 at night had a line and a good amount of traffic from UH-Downtown. This thing is actually a nice retail find, and I will bet you that many retailers would trade in some weekend traffic to have consistent traffic Monday-Friday.

With 2 stores open and HOB, this thing already is going to exceed expectations and will only get better when more things come into town. I do think this is a rough time to open, but if the retail stores can survive the following downturn, this thing will be a huge success.

I do think that this development is on a lot of retailers radar and they will be watching it trying to see what type of traffic it will have on weekend and weekday.

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With 2 stores open and HOB, this thing already is going to exceed expectations and will only get better when more things come into town. I do think this is a rough time to open, but if the retail stores can survive the following downturn, this thing will be a huge success.

As Niche said, even if it 'goes under' the space will still be there and therefore so will the potential. If HP can just keep it's head above water during these times, it will hopefully rise to the top when things are up again.

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And you are impressed with it?

I didn't have any fantasy in mind, I was merely observing. I didn't actually WANT anything out of HP, as I find shopping, dining, entertainment and living options in other parts of Houston to be excellent. I have no secret hard-on to buy Gap khakis or even Cartier watches downtown.

If retail is, in fact, the answer to building downtown life past 6pm, and if we all agree that downtown life is our goal for whatever reason, I think this seems like poor execution. I think turning the shops inward does exactly what The Park Shops did -- it eliminates its interaction with the street and with the larger potential neighborhood that might begin to develop, had this been considered. If the types of retail planned were more destination oriented, people would have a reason to seek this place out and to come back often. If it had the mentality to create more of a sense of place to encourage a streetscape, it would draw even people not looking to shop, but merely gather. Again, this begins to build community -- something this collection of what looks like temporary buildings lacks.

In the end, for all its promise, it's really just an inward-facing outdoor mall that may serve office workers and a few people killing time before a concert or basketball game and no one else. The thing I find funny is that we already have one lame mall downtown that no one goes to, why does anyone think we need two?

That is all it ever was intended to be. Frankly, if you were making a downtown shopping mall into more than it is, the blame belongs with you, not with Houston Pavillions. And, for that matter, HP looks to be made up of concrete glass and limestone. These would be regional construction materials for this area. Personally, I am neither impressed nor unimpressed by HP. It is what it claims to be. It will house some restaurants and bars that I may occasionally frequent, and some shops that I will seldom frequent. However, because it is and was always a shopping center, I never idealized it to be something more, which you obviously have done. Therefore, I am not disappointed.

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That is all it ever was intended to be. Frankly, if you were making a downtown shopping mall into more than it is, the blame belongs with you, not with Houston Pavillions. And, for that matter, HP looks to be made up of concrete glass and limestone. These would be regional construction materials for this area. Personally, I am neither impressed nor unimpressed by HP. It is what it claims to be. It will house some restaurants and bars that I may occasionally frequent, and some shops that I will seldom frequent. However, because it is and was always a shopping center, I never idealized it to be something more, which you obviously have done. Therefore, I am not disappointed.

Well said.

And may I add, this is clearly a hugely positive addition to downtown Houston. Anybody who has seen the very comparable Denver Pavilions (also an inward-facing outdoor mall) can see that. Anyone who has spent even thirty seconds comparing HP to the Shops at Houston Center (fka The Park Shops) can also see that HP has not done "exactly what the Park Shops did". Far from it. While the Park Shops does very nearly "eliminate its interaction with the streets" that cannot really be said about HP. There are large, attractive openings on each end of HP and further openings with the cross streets at each of the two mid-center street crossings. Further, there are multiple store fronts and windows on the streets. (The Houston Center Shops, on the other hand, have approximately two streetside store fronts and one set of doors on the street.)

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I guess some people on here just love bitching about things. I'm thinking they would have been happier with the 3 boring parking lots that were there before.

I'm really dissappointed that they didn't include an indoor ski park in the plan like in Dubai :P Geeze Houston!

I think this is a great addition to the downtown area, I think in the next year after the economy swings up again we may have some exciting news as companies announce new stores for HP. I also think they were very creative with their common spaces in how the incorporated the drainage at an angle with built in seating and planters.

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I've read all the pros and cons presented on this topic and all I've got to gripe about is the $9.00 parking in the designated "HP Parking Garage" directly south of that bookstore/Forever 21. I understand parking downtown and paying to park, but there are misleading signs in this garage that advertise $3.00 parking for HP customers, and it's never been honored (I've parked there 3 times and charged $9.00 each time...my bad for being an idiot 3 times) AND no parking validation! What in the crap!?

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I've read all the pros and cons presented on this topic and all I've got to gripe about is the $9.00 parking in the designated "HP Parking Garage" directly south of that bookstore/Forever 21. I understand parking downtown and paying to park, but there are misleading signs in this garage that advertise $3.00 parking for HP customers, and it's never been honored (I've parked there 3 times and charged $9.00 each time...my bad for being an idiot 3 times) AND no parking validation! What in the crap!?

I guess they don't want you shopping too long. From the website's parking link:

Parking Rates:

$1.50 each 20 minutes maximum of $10.00

Edited by lockmat
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Oops...sorry...I forgot to mention that I was there for 30 minutes each time. I even showed my receipt compared to my parking ticket and was told too bad, so sad. This garage is connected to HP via skywalk

Geeze, were you double parked?

:P

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Oops...sorry...I forgot to mention that I was there for 30 minutes each time. I even showed my receipt compared to my parking ticket and was told too bad, so sad. This garage is connected to HP via skywalk

you should call the business(es) you went to and make sure they know the parking situation. maybe they can do something from their end.

was downtown sunday evening and couldn't believe how much they were charging for parking pre-madonna. $40 at one place. :wacko:

Edited by musicman
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Where can I park for free? And please keep in mind that I'm horrible at parallel parking :D

If you can't, then you DESERVE to pay for parking. :)

Seriously, people, are such a nation of "instant gratification" that we can't tolerate a few months of this thing ramping up and seeing it "empty" before declaring it a "Failure."

As its been stated on this thread before (and need I remind you OTHER threads as well) give it at least a year or so.

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I think many may wonder as I do what will DRIVE business to this location.....so far after it has opened many including several who have been there still wonder about that.....and often when a large new development like this has trouble filling all the spaces and or getting the stores opened in a timely fashion it rightly makes people question what will DRIVE the business to this location

Honestly, i think House Of Blues and Lucky Strike will drive business there because HOB has already done so for me and lots of others i know.

And HOB is in this for the long run...why? because, forget the restaurant for now...it is a quality music venue...great lights, sound, stage and ambiance...love the place and it makes me excited to go see shows again...so much so that i am more open to see other new bands in such a great environment. Those reasons alone will keep people coming to the HP and rightfully so. (as for the restaurant and bar, i liked it and while some may have their justified complaints, i will continue to go there, as will my friends.)

Cant wait to have Lucky Strike open as well since Dave and Busters bowling at the Marqe was my only other close option!

and i cant forget the opening of Cork in January 09! Cork is an awesome wine bar, live music venue so that will also bring a new and great addition to HP!

im excited

ps...not sure if the pic posted of the VIP dining room at HOB is from the Foundation Room but from all the Foundation Rooms i have been lucky enough to visit, it looks like it is and cannot wait to visit this houston one as well dec 3rd!

thanks for the pic!

Everyone must somehow, someway get to experience a Foundation Room event, these spaces are incredible.

Edited by gene
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Where can I park for free? And please keep in mind that I'm horrible at parallel parking :D

There are places here and there along the street. You just have to look for them. I go downtown all the time and I have never paid for parking. :)

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ps...not sure if the pic posted of the VIP dining room at HOB is from the Foundation Room but from all the Foundation Rooms i have been lucky enough to visit, it looks like it is and cannot wait to visit this houston one as well dec 3rd!

thanks for the pic!

Everyone must somehow, someway get to experience a Foundation Room event, these spaces are incredible.

it is from the houston hob. here's another.

hob2.jpg

and here's the music venue with the bottom floor being standing room only.

hob3.jpg

Edited by musicman
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Honestly, i think House Of Blues and Lucky Strike will drive business there because HOB has already done so for me and lots of others i know.

And HOB is in this for the long run...why? because, forget the restaurant for now...it is a quality music venue...great lights, sound, stage and ambiance...love the place and it makes me excited to go see shows again...so much so that i am more open to see other new bands in such a great environment. Those reasons alone will keep people coming to the HP and rightfully so. (as for the restaurant and bar, i liked it and while some may have their justified complaints, i will continue to go there, as will my friends.)

Cant wait to have Lucky Strike open as well since Dave and Busters bowling at the Marqe was my only other close option!

and i cant forget the opening of Cork in January 09! Cork is an awesome wine bar, live music venue so that will also bring a new and great addition to HP!

im excited

ps...not sure if the pic posted of the VIP dining room at HOB is from the Foundation Room but from all the Foundation Rooms i have been lucky enough to visit, it looks like it is and cannot wait to visit this houston one as well dec 3rd!

thanks for the pic!

Everyone must somehow, someway get to experience a Foundation Room event, these spaces are incredible.

Yeah I'd go to cork. I dont know about HOB though as I'm not much into Blues... or "rock".

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I think the disappointment lies in the fact that so many Houstonians are craving that ONE entertainment/shopping district that will draw world and national renown like so many other cities currently have. Fairly or not, HP was hyped as the realization of these urban fantasies since it's inception and when you look at what it was proposed to be and what it is now, I can understand a fair bit of letdown. HP went from urban hipster fantasy to a curiously designed Park Shops. I seriously doubt that is what many people were expecting when it was announced.

However, to deem HP a failure is very premature and giving it a three month life span is utterly ridiculous. I think HP has a good chance of limping along into something respectable or at the very least an alternative to the Tunnels and the Park Shops.

Edited by MetroMogul
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I think the disappointment lies in the fact that so many Houstonians are craving that ONE entertainment/shopping district that will draw world and national renown like so many other cities currently have.
who's craving this? it surprises me many have never heard of hp.
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I think the disappointment lies in the fact that so many Houstonians are craving that ONE entertainment/shopping district that will draw world and national renown like so many other cities currently have. Fairly or not, HP was hyped as the realization of these urban fantasies since it's inception and when you look at what it was proposed to be and what it is now, I can understand a fair bit of letdown. HP went from urban hipster fantasy to a curiously designed Park Shops. I seriously doubt that is what many people were expecting when it was announced.

It must be fun living inside that head of yours. You have a CRAZY wild imagination. ;-)

Edited by Houston19514
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Well, many people on this forum for starters.

that's just a little different that "so many Houstonians" lockmat just bumped up a thread where some place named chocolata that closed and when you bring up the website CRAVE is the first word you see

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Well, I personally know of many people off site that would love an entertainment/shopping district that rivals Times Square (it's not going to happen) or the Vegas Strip (also not going to happen). Many thought that HP was going to be the beginning of something like that and looking at the end result they feel letdown in a way. Me personally, I don't mind it too much and I see alot of potential. At the very least it's a new place to use a bathroom downtown.

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I think the disappointment lies in the fact that so many Houstonians are craving that ONE entertainment/shopping district that will draw world and national renown like so many other cities currently have.

Eh? HP is disappointing because it's an ugly, empty mall. I've been to lots of malls, all over the world. HP is one of the ugliest, and the only one I've ever seen open with only 4 stores tenants. I'd bet there are fewer than 100 Houstonians craving those words you wrote.

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