Houston Pavilions, Now Green Street

[RedScare]

Man, what's up with the Bose haters? Mine sound fine. Then again, my ears haven't been exactly right since Cheap Trick at the Coliseum in 1980.

[memebag]

Man, what's up with the Bose haters? Mine sound fine. Then again, my ears haven't been exactly right since Cheap Trick at the Coliseum in 1980.

Why Bose Sucks

I know what I'm talking about. I've got Radio Shack speakers!

[RedScare]

Why Bose Sucks

I know what I'm talking about. I've got Radio Shack speakers!

I figured that would be the gist of the gripes. What is left unsaid in speaker reviews (as well as stereo and television reviews) is that the beauty is in the ear or eye of the beholder. I compared the Bose to several others at Tweeter, and based on what sounded good to me I bought the Bose. I'm not too worried about what a Circuit City employee thinks.

[UrbaNerd]

From my personal experience, the quality of Bose products varies widely. We have two wave stereos at home, and those sound great (especially for their minuscule size), but the speakers in my car (Well, it's an old car, but it's all a college student can afford) sound horrendously tinny and worn out. Perhaps this is due to their age (1997 vehicle), but I'd pay a good couple of hundred to get those changed (if I didn't have to constantly purchase art supplies...).

[swtsig]

The weekend lunch crowd is irrelevant? I beg to differ---the weekday lunch crowd will be a vast majority of the patrons.

exactly.

HP isn't shooting for the park shops redux.... it will be busy at lunch, that's a gimme. but if the place is not attracting people past 5 oclock weekdays or on the weekends, then the HP is a failure.

[totheskies]

LOL! Your opinion of Bose aside,

Think about some actual potential HP customers. Very few Houstonians will go shop at HP. Sorry but that

Edited November 10, 2008 by totheskies

[brian0123]

BTW, last year, most people thought that only "very few Houstonians" would be visiting Discovery Green. Now there is city-wide buzz about the outdoor ice rink.

You are dead on! I live in Midtown, and back when DG was being downplayed by some, I knew that if my neighbors and friends were excited about it... there must be plenty of others around the area as well. Sure enough, DG turned out to be incredible.

I view HP as the same thing. Naysayers can complain all they want. All I know is that my wife and I, as well as our neighbors and friends, are excited about the HP and plan to spend a lot of money there.

[102IAHexpress]

The moment HP decided to not connect to the tunnels and its daytime workers, and decided to scrap the residential component, its fate was sealed. Shopping at HP will never be any better than what can be found at a good airport terminal. Heck even Qatar Airways will have a presence at HP.

[Talbot]

The moment HP decided to not connect to the tunnels and its daytime workers, and decided to scrap the residential component, its fate was sealed. Shopping at HP will never be any better than what can be found at a good airport terminal. Heck even Qatar Airways will have a presence at HP.

Im glad it doesn't connect to the underground tunnel personally.

[RedScare]

The moment HP decided to not connect to the tunnels and its daytime workers, and decided to scrap the residential component, its fate was sealed. Shopping at HP will never be any better than what can be found at a good airport terminal. Heck even Qatar Airways will have a presence at HP.

You should put a winky face when you do sarcasm. Otherwise, people will think you are serious about the tunnels.

[MetroMogul]

Well, I will say that HP provides another great public restroom when Macy's and the CVS close. The restrooms are on the second floor tucked into a somewhat undeveloped section of the mall and a little difficult to locate so if you have a "potty emergency" of sorts I wouldn't recommend HP. I'm sure the placement of these restrooms will attract a bit of that "local flavor" downtown is known for.

In somewhat related news, Houston WASPS may be disappointed to see women they could only describe as "some rap guy's girlfriend" frequenting the scant selection of shops obviously dashing their hopes that riff raff would be safely relegated to decaying suburban malls. That's what happens when you plunk a Forever 21 into any shopping center. Me? I don't mind at all, hoochies and a clean public restroom are all a young man needs on his Metro journeys.

Overall, very underwhelming, though I do like the BAM.

It depends on where you live. I highly doubt that too many people in Cypress will be flocking down to HP, but what about the people in Midtown, East End, Montrose, the Heights, and Rice Village? The next closest Forever 21 is in Pearland, and (once it opens) HP will have the only Lucky Strike lanes in the city... it'll also be the only bowling alley anywhere near these neighborhoods. For those of us who are inner loopers and actually LIKE the thought of spending time in downtown, HP is a step in the right direction.

BTW, last year, most people thought that only "very few Houstonians" would be visiting Discovery Green. Now there is city-wide buzz about the outdoor ice rink.

I guess the Forever 21s in Memorial, Willowbrook, and Sugarland don't count?

[Daniepwils]

Forever 21 as the flagship store for HP is kind of odd in my opinion. What is the demographic for that store? teens?

I can probably almost guarantee you that the people living downtown and midtown won't really fit that demographic.

Granted I don't know much about that store as I have never been in one. The female friends I have told me that it was "a bunch of cheaply made crap". My boss basically said the same thing in a nicer way.

[sevfiv]

I had no idea this was on the bag (it's kinda hidden at the bottom):

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicag...s.aspx?id=37561

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008...g-faith-fa.html

http://therottenlittlegirls.com/2008/09/08...elical-message/

[LTAWACS]

I had no idea this was on the bag (it's kinda hidden at the bottom):

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicag...s.aspx?id=37561

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008...g-faith-fa.html

http://therottenlittlegirls.com/2008/09/08...elical-message/

I don't get it. Is it some conspiracy?

[sevfiv]

I don't get it. Is it some conspiracy?

Nothing to get - just an odd spot for a bible verse imo.

I'll leave the conspiracy issue alone

[houstonartstudent]

I don't get it. Is it some conspiracy?

Naw it's just the owner displaying their beliefs in a non-"IN YOUR FACE" way - Also, if you think Forever 21 messed up by placing their flagship store in an area with the wrong demographics, you should think of telling all the people downtown with that same yellow bag that they're shopping in the wrong area

[lockmat]

I had no idea this was on the bag (it's kinda hidden at the bottom):

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicag...s.aspx?id=37561

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008...g-faith-fa.html

http://therottenlittlegirls.com/2008/09/08...elical-message/

In-N-Out Burger does the same thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Chic-fil-a does it too somewhere.

[memebag]

I don't get it. Is it some conspiracy?

No conspiracy. Given Jesus' views on prostitutes, I see no discrepancy in the bag message.

[102IAHexpress]

You should put a winky face when you do sarcasm. Otherwise, people will think you are serious about the tunnels.

I hate the tunnels. They keep me sheltered from humidity, heat, rain, and bums. In fact I wish we would just pour cement in the tunnels; that way pedestrians would be forced to get bummed on their way in/out of retail stores. Besides, as we all know you can

[Talbot]

I hate the tunnels. They keep me sheltered from humidity, heat, rain, and bums. In fact I wish we would just pour cement in the tunnels; that way pedestrians would be forced to get bummed on their way in/out of retail stores. Besides, as we all know you can

[totheskies]

Forever 21 as the flagship store for HP is kind of odd in my opinion. What is the demographic for that store? teens?

I can probably almost guarantee you that the people living downtown and midtown won't really fit that demographic.

Granted I don't know much about that store as I have never been in one. The female friends I have told me that it was "a bunch of cheaply made crap". My boss basically said the same thing in a nicer way.

Maybe we hang out with entirely different groups of people... I don't know too many people that live IN downtown, but as for Midtown, my friends love Forever 21 and have been frequenting the downtown location (20 something women). The word is also getting out around UH campus, although everyone complains about the lack of parking near the store.

[Jax]

My girlfriend also likes Forever 21. Actually, she is there right now. Yeah, the stuff is cheap, but we're poor students on a tight budget, so the fact that their prices are low is great. If it was an expensive clothing store, she probably wouldn't be there.

I guess the Forever 21s in Memorial, Willowbrook, and Sugarland don't count?

Also, she wouldn't be at the store in Memorial, Willowbrooke, or Sugarland if this one didn't open Downtown because they're too damn far away (we live in the Museum District on the Metro Rail line) and we only have one car between us. I know I we don't speak for the majority of Houstonians, I'm just trying to point out that for some people the location is convenient.

It's easy to be underwhelmed right now because 75% (or more?) of the place is empty. Once it starts filling up with retail I think it'll be nice.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Jax

[fewellman]

And when Lucky Strike opens along with the House of Blues and all the restaurants and bars this place is going to be pretty sweet. i will def be frequenting this place alot when i move down to midtown in a few months.

[BigSky]

I went to Forever 21 last night to get something for my wife. And the place had a nice amount of traffic in it at 9pm. I think it is going to survive and be ok...It is more convienient than going to the galleria, I parked on the side of the street and walked straight in. In the galleria, you would have had to park in the parking garage and walk through the mall to get to the location.

Houstonians are naysayers because it is something they have never experienced, street side shopping.

[swtsig]

I went to Forever 21 last night to get something for my wife. And the place had a nice amount of traffic in it at 9pm. I think it is going to survive and be ok...It is more convienient than going to the galleria, I parked on the side of the street and walked straight in. In the galleria, you would have had to park in the parking garage and walk through the mall to get to the location.

Houstonians are naysayers because it is something they have never experienced, street side shopping.

outside of the "entrance" where forever 21 and BAM are, i would hardly call this "street-side shopping." toured the place yesterday (virtually empty, but it was 3 oclock), and came away with the impression that this is just notch or two above an outdoor mall - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you're fooling yourself if you think having the store fronts facing the interior promenade as opposed to the exterior street is doing anything to truly enhance the actual downtown streetscape.

this thing is put together like a mall, has all the similar features of a mall (especially the retail tenants), and it's architecture - save for the skywalks - just screams "mall." the HOB and luckystripe

i was told that the ownership regrets not adding a residential component, though.

[TheNiche]

i was told that the ownership regrets not adding a residential component, though.

And immediately after they had broken ground, they regretted not adding a hotel component...but considering that it would only be opening up in 2009, and knowing about the economy in 2009 what we do now, I'll bet that in retrospect they're thankful that they weren't able to add it like they wanted to.

Big developments like this take a lot of time between conception to site planning to financing to permitting to groundbreaking to topping out to completion to lease-up to stabilization to sale. Stakeholders often get spooked by short-term economic phenomena early in the process only to find out later on that the timing couldn't have been better.

Sometimes as a developer or lender, you've just got to cross your fingers, take a deep breath, dive in head-first, and hope that there aren't jagged rocks just under the water's surface.

[LTAWACS]

Lets hope they build more.

[tertiary77u]

Lets hope they build more.

Agreed!!

[totheskies]

Well, what I really love about HP is that it came to downtown at the RIGHT time. Houston is still floating above the economic waters, but I think the Ike effects are pulling us down, and we're going to slip into recession with ever)yone else. But we're fortunate b/c this city still has a great jobs buffer... we're even more fortunate that a lio's share of those jobs are inside the loop (med center, universities, downtown, construction, etc.). HP, though not perfect, is going to fill a huge void in downtown b/c it'll be the only place that's ALIVE after 6pm.

Oh, and I hope our HOB, HP, Discovery Green and Toyota Center gets to benefit from some recent worldwide exposure thanks to the Latin Grammys, so downtown should be seeing a nice little boost.

Edited November 18, 2008 by totheskies

[citizen4rmptown]

Oh, and I our HOB, HP, Discovery Green and Toyota Center gets to benefit from some recent worldwide exposure thanks to the Latin Grammys, so downtown should be seeing a nice little boost.

Dont forget the GRB Convention Center!!

[LTAWACS]

Dont forget the GRB Convention Center!!

Lets hope they build more.

[musicman]

Well, what I really love about HP is that it came to downtown at the RIGHT time. Houston is still floating above the economic waters, but I think the Ike effects are pulling us down

what are the ike effects pulling us down?

[Trae]

My girlfriend also likes Forever 21. Actually, she is there right now. Yeah, the stuff is cheap, but we're poor students on a tight budget, so the fact that their prices are low is great. If it was an expensive clothing store, she probably wouldn't be there.

Also, she wouldn't be at the store in Memorial, Willowbrooke, or Sugarland if this one didn't open Downtown because they're too damn far away (we live in the Museum District on the Metro Rail line) and we only have one car between us. I know I we don't speak for the majority of Houstonians, I'm just trying to point out that for some people the location is convenient.

It's easy to be underwhelmed right now because 75% (or more?) of the place is empty. Once it starts filling up with retail I think it'll be nice.

I like Forever 21 as well. Not bad clothing. It would be cool if the Pavilions had a Metropark though. That store is my favorite.

[musicman]

sorry for bad photo but this is the VIP dining area in the house of blues.

[LTAWACS]

Was there anyone else there?

[musicman]

Was there anyone else there?

there were a few in the VIP bar area but it was darker and the phone pics didn't come out.

[dalparadise]

If HP had about 10 times the retail space and some air conditioning, it would be a run-of-the-mill mall.

If its storefronts faced the street, it would be a curious collection of lackluster shops that make a downtown shopping district.

If its tenant list were interesting enough (except for HOB and Lucky Strike-those are great, but perhaps not enough to sustain it) it would be a destination.

If it were connected to residential or better positioned near a critical mass of residential (no, a few Midtown bargain hunters shopping for high school apparel isn't enough) and gave that population a public square -- not just an un-air-conditioned mall (this claustrophobic tin can is going to be miserable in summertime) it might form the core of a real urban neighborhood.

If its architecture reflected local materials, or some hint at a Houston or Texas regionalism, it might inspire developers around it to continue its mission with complementary retail and restaurant developments of their own.

As it is, HP is none of these things and doesn't appear to be in this for the long haul. HOB seems cool, though for "happy hour" I counted five people behind the bar, serving seven customers this evening. Granted, it was Monday, but someone needs to adjust staffing levels or their employee costs are going to run them out of business. And why stick on a crappy mall to this thing? It would have been fine as a stand-alone without the Lidz and the handful of restaurants we already have.

I'm a big Houston booster and try to look on the bright side in cases like this, but HP sucks.

[RedScare]

If HP had about 10 times the retail space and some air conditioning, it would be a run-of-the-mill mall.

If its storefronts faced the street, it would be a curious collection of lackluster shops that make a downtown shopping district.

If its tenant list were interesting enough (except for HOB and Lucky Strike-those are great, but perhaps not enough to sustain it) it would be a destination.

If it were connected to residential or better positioned near a critical mass of residential (no, a few Midtown bargain hunters shopping for high school apparel isn't enough) and gave that population a public square -- not just an un-air-conditioned mall (this claustrophobic tin can is going to be miserable in summertime) it might form the core of a real urban neighborhood.

If its architecture reflected local materials, or some hint at a Houston or Texas regionalism, it might inspire developers around it to continue its mission with complementary retail and restaurant developments of their own.

As it is, HP is none of these things and doesn't appear to be in this for the long haul. HOB seems cool, though for "happy hour" I counted five people behind the bar, serving seven customers this evening. Granted, it was Monday, but someone needs to adjust staffing levels or their employee costs are going to run them out of business. And why stick on a crappy mall to this thing? It would have been fine as a stand-alone without the Lidz and the handful of restaurants we already have.

I'm a big Houston booster and try to look on the bright side in cases like this, but HP sucks.

I think you created a fantasy in your mind that no developer could build. It is no wonder that you are unimpressed with what was actually built.

[roadrunner]

If HP had about 10 times the retail space and some air conditioning, it would be a run-of-the-mill mall.

If its storefronts faced the street, it would be a curious collection of lackluster shops that make a downtown shopping district.

If its tenant list were interesting enough (except for HOB and Lucky Strike-those are great, but perhaps not enough to sustain it) it would be a destination.

If it were connected to residential or better positioned near a critical mass of residential (no, a few Midtown bargain hunters shopping for high school apparel isn't enough) and gave that population a public square -- not just an un-air-conditioned mall (this claustrophobic tin can is going to be miserable in summertime) it might form the core of a real urban neighborhood.

If its architecture reflected local materials, or some hint at a Houston or Texas regionalism, it might inspire developers around it to continue its mission with complementary retail and restaurant developments of their own.

As it is, HP is none of these things and doesn't appear to be in this for the long haul. HOB seems cool, though for "happy hour" I counted five people behind the bar, serving seven customers this evening. Granted, it was Monday, but someone needs to adjust staffing levels or their employee costs are going to run them out of business. And why stick on a crappy mall to this thing? It would have been fine as a stand-alone without the Lidz and the handful of restaurants we already have.

I'm a big Houston booster and try to look on the bright side in cases like this, but HP sucks.

Unfortunately, I agree with this. If HP fails, which I think is definitely a possibility after seeing the finished product, it would be because the developers played it too safe. It tries to be all of the things above, but it comes short on all accounts.

[LTAWACS]

This is not going well. I wonder how long it can last before it is forced to closed down for good. I say... 3 months.

[tertiary77u]

sorry for bad photo but this is the VIP dining area in the house of blues.

Wow...pretty nice for the House of Blues.

[TheNiche]

This is not going well. I wonder how long it can last before it is forced to closed down for good. I say... 3 months.

That's not how retail centers work. They don't close down. Stores within them do.

That isn't to say that retailers might end up hurting for business, be forced to renegotiate their leases, and cause the owner of the retail center to be foreclosed on, but the retail center itself stays open. And were it not for news coverage or tipsters on Swamplot, we'd probably never realize it if it did get foreclosed on.

[TheNiche]

If it were connected to residential or better positioned near a critical mass of residential (no, a few Midtown bargain hunters shopping for high school apparel isn't enough) and gave that population a public square

A few hundred residents nearby cannot even sustain a strip center by themselves. Houston Pavilions isn't neighborhood-oriented convenience retail, though, it is destination retail.

If its architecture reflected local materials, or some hint at a Houston or Texas regionalism, it might inspire developers around it to continue its mission with complementary retail and restaurant developments of their own.

What, you wanted the thing to be built from oak and pine? Chinese tallow?

Help me out, here...

[LTAWACS]

A few hundred residents nearby cannot even sustain a strip center by themselves. Houston Pavilions isn't neighborhood-oriented convenience retail, though, it is destination retail.

What, you wanted the thing to be built from oak and pine? Chinese tallow?

Help me out, here...

Perhaps he means to say we should put a big 5-point star on one side of the building. You know... next to a cactus with some drunk armadillo leaning on it.

Maybe if we put a huge pair of cowboy boots on the roof. Or a guitar. Or better yet, a big giant saxophone!

[crunchtastic]

Houston Pavilions isn't neighborhood-oriented convenience retail, though, it is destination retail.

It wants to be destination retail, but no matter how many young women buy their bubble-hem dresses at Forever 21, the retail tenants in HP still suck. I forget who said it earlier in the thread, but aside from the restaurants, it's about as appealing as airport concourse shopping. I wish it well, but it needs some more compelling tenants.

[TheNiche]

It wants to be destination retail, but no matter how many young women buy their bubble-hem dresses at Forever 21, the retail tenants in HP still suck. I forget who said it earlier in the thread, but aside from the restaurants, it's about as appealing as airport concourse shopping. I wish it well, but it needs some more compelling tenants.

Yeah, and that makes sense. It reflects their built-in customer base of office workers and business travelers.

But my point remains: a few hundred residents nearby wouldn't make the slightest difference.

[Jax]

I think we need to wait until HP is fully leased (or closer to being fully leased) before making the call that the tenants suck. It seemed when I was there that only maybe 10% of the retail space was occupied. Anybody got any numbers?

[HtownWxBoy]

I think we need to wait until HP is fully leased (or closer to being fully leased) before making the call that the tenants suck. It seemed when I was there that only maybe 10% of the retail space was occupied. Anybody got any numbers?

Seriously... most of it is not even open yet... good lord give it some time.

[slfunk]

I wouldn't be making any judgement calls on the tenants or success of any project until we get out of this slump. We have been watching a few VERY popular restuarants up here in the uptown area of Dallas taking a big hit. We have been watching some of our clients canceling plans in other parts of the country/internationally for their projects or parts of their project. In Raleigh, NC there are couple of high rises that just stopped construction with the superstructure several floors up, same in Las Vegas and Miami. We have one here in Dallas called the Stoneleigh. Be glad this project whether there is 10 percent or more retail. It got going before the downtown, and when we get back to growing with the HOB being one of the main anchors, this development will be rocking and rolling!

Edited November 18, 2008 by slfunk

[fewellman]

Seriously... most of it is not even open yet... good lord give it some time.

No kidding! I went down there the other day and i saw huge potential, wait until the whole thing is leased out before saying it sucks. I don't know why every body in this forum is so negative all the time.