GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[Houston19514]

I still say those stores are glorified chains. They are a step left of a tourist trap.

If the Galeria can't attract those chains nothing downtown ever will.

And yet, most of the announced HP tenants have not ever been attracted by the Galleria... So how can you be so sure that nothing downtown could ever attract ESPNZone, Niketown, etc., just because they have not been attracted by the Galleria?

I really thought that this project lost almost all of it's character when the residential portion of the project was cancelled. The reason given was that the huricanes inflated construction costs. lame.

I really am excited about what this project represented or could have represented but am worried that in the end this will be another bayou place or park shops because they did not integrate residential with the project. The user group goes from residents and their guests who would view this as their 'neighborhood' to the initial secondary group of....... visitors of the park, the arena, and the 9-5 downtown workers, etc.. Everything is riding on these houstonians who do not live here. We've all have seen how that turns out. Once these people get bored with the pavilions they will look for entertainment elsewhere because there is no attachment.

I cannot strongly stress that the residential component almost had to be a part of this project to be succesfull. With this good....but not great list of tenants I really am worried.

Sure the park tower will add residents to the area but it will not be the same. The residents are not actually a part of the pavilions. What does it take to get a mixed-use project with residential in downtown houston?

Your entire post can be rather strongly disproven with two words Denver Pavilions

[GovernorAggie]

i personally see the espnzone, nike, etc attracting more of a thug element. that is something that needs to be avoided otherwise the project wouldn't be successful long term. i think the restaurant mix is nice one and could be great as long as access is easy.

I see that you said "personally"...what is your reasoning? The Niketown in SF when I visited did not have a "thug" element, and I would venture to guess that the ESPN Zone would attract about as many thugs as Fox Sports Grill in the Galleria does.

Location doesn't matter. The same Houston that you are well aware of that provides for most people to travel by car allows those thugs to go where they want just as easily. And they do.

[bach]

Hey guys let's just be happy the groundbreaking is actually happening. A month ago we were still worrying about whether or not this thing was going to happen. How much retail space is left for the Pavilions? If there was 360,000 sq. ft. to begin with, how much is left after all the tenants that have been anounced? Who knows there still could be some great places coming that have yet to be announced. I'm sure once this thing is complete, we won't care what's down there, we'll just be happy to have it.

Exerpts from today's press release:

HOUSTON PAVILIONS BREAKS GROUND AND

ANNOUNCES FINAL ANCHOR TENANTS

$170 Million Downtown Urban Landmark to Open October 2008

HOUSTON - The Houston Pavilions, a four city block mixed-use development that will become downtown's premiere entertainment, retail and urban office hub, broke ground on Tuesday morning, February 27th. The $170 million project is scheduled to open in October of 2008.

The project will be comprised of 360,000 sq. ft. of retail space, 200,000 sq. ft. of office space, and a 480,000 sq. ft., 1,525 space parking garage. The development will be bounded by Dallas St. to the north, Polk St. to the south, Main St. to the west and Caroline St. to the east.

The developers, William Denton and Geoffrey Jones, who separately have been responsible for numerous commercial, office and residential projects in Houston and other major cities, revealed the identity of the Pavilions' two latest anchor tenants during the groundbreaking ceremony.

Each of the new anchors is in excess of 24,000 sq. ft. A two-level Books-A-Million Superstore and Forever 21 will join the project's original anchor tenants, the House of Blues

[The Great Hizzy!]

This thread has taken a sad and tragic turn. From optimism to fatalism in a matter of hours.

That said, it's my understanding that not all of the retail space has been filled, so maybe some of you will get your Nike Town or what have you, and then you can later complain about aspects of THAT, too.

[shasta]

And yet, most of the announced HP tenants have not ever been attracted by the Galleria... So how can you be so sure that nothing downtown could ever attract ESPNZone, Niketown, etc., just because they have not been attracted by the Galleria?

Your entire post can be rather strongly disproven with two words Denver Pavilions

You are entirely true but HOUSTON is not Denver

Denver is actually considered a tourist destination and a 'hot' place to live. Houston is not either of these. Real World selected Denver because it is an exciting place when did they select Houston - they didn't. I've never been to Denver but I am going to guess that more people live in downtown Denver than in Houston. Plus I am going to guess that the tenants of teh Denver Pavilions are because those tenant wanted to be in downtown Denver whereas downtown Houston would be more of a gamble.

[sevfiv]

can anyone provide a stable link to the press release?

[MidtownCoog]

So how can you be so sure that nothing downtown could ever attract ESPNZone, Niketown, etc., just because they have not been attracted by the Galleria?

It's easy HAIF Nazi. I open my mouth, start talking, and the words come out. That's how I say it. Except in this case I typed them and they appear on my computer screen. It's real cool how it all works.

I agree with music on the "thug" life. We have enough "thug" life window shoppers as it is. No need to beg them to come and ruin a place.

[lockmat]

It's easy HAIF Nazi. I open my mouth, start talking, and the words come out. That's how I say it. Except in this case I typed them and they appear on my computer screen. It's real cool how it all works.

I agree with music on the "thug" life. We have enough "thug" life window shoppers as it is. No need to beg them to come and ruin a place.

Be careful not to confuse style of dress w/ actual thugs. As long as they don't bring crime, I could care less. Money is what matters, and if they have it, let them shop.

[Houston19514]

You are entirely true but HOUSTON is not Denver

Denver is actually considered a tourist destination and a 'hot' place to live. Houston is not either of these. Real World selected Denver because it is an exciting place when did they select Houston - they didn't. I've never been to Denver but I am going to guess that more people live in downtown Denver than in Houston. Plus I am going to guess that the tenants of teh Denver Pavilions are because those tenant wanted to be in downtown Denver whereas downtown Houston would be more of a gamble.

When Denver Pavilions was built, downtown Denver was in a similar condition to that of downtown Houston today. Little residential, struggling retail... When it was built, Denver Pavilions was "more of a gamble" as well.

It is just as easy to "guess" that the retailers signing up for Houston Pavilions are doing so because they want to be in downtown Houston (especially when they in fact are signing leases to do so) as it is to guess that Denver Pavilions tenants are there because they want to be in downtown Denver.

And using "Real World" as a key to gauge whether a mixed-use retail and entertainment complex will be successful is, well, let's just say, an interesting approach to development. ;-)

[MidtownCoog]

The "shop" part is key.

That's why I think you won't see Niketown for a long time.

[Pumapayam]

This thread has taken a sad and tragic turn. From optimism to fatalism in a matter of hours.

That said, it's my understanding that not all of the retail space has been filled, so maybe some of you will get your Nike Town or what have you, and then you can later complain about aspects of THAT, too.

It's because they killed the residential portion of the project, yet they are touting they are trying to improve the downtown population after 5 p.m. .

[MidtownCoog]

Denver is a tourist destination?

[Houston19514]

It's because they killed the residential portion of the project, yet they are touting they are trying to improve the downtown population after 5 p.m. .

What is the problem with that? HP will clearly have numerous shops, restaurants and entertainment venues that will indeed help keep people downtown after 5 p.m. Is that really so hard to understand?

The negative tenor of this board is really unbelievable and out of control. The construction of Houston Pavilions is HUGELY good news for downtown Houston anyway you look at it, ESPECIALLY when you consider that the very nearby One Park Place and Discovery Green are already under construction. (And keep in mind that we were told repeatedly by many of these same negative know-it-alls that Houston Pavilions would never happen, that Discover Green would never happen, that the One Park Place apartment tower would never happen...)

At what point does one notice that one's constant negative predictions are not coming true and realize that a lot of great stuff is happening in Houston Texas?

Edited February 27, 2007 by Houston19514

[Jonah]

Out of curiosity, why is there only one tower instead of three? I know they took out the residential, but shouldn't that have been one tower gone instead of two. What happened to the other one? On another note, I seriously doubt this will end up like Bayou Place. What sets this apart is that there is actual retail instead of just restaurants and clubs. Plus the location, so close to the Toyota Center and MMP I can see regular foot traffic for the Pavilions. People can park and leave their car to go to the Pavilions and then walk over to a game. Bayou Place is on the edge of downtown making it a tough walk for anyone wanting to go there before or after a game. Also the Verzion Wireless Theater only attracts an audience certain days of the week when there's a show. The Pavilions has a House of Blues and also a Lucky Strike, which I can guarantee will bring people down there every night of the week. The Lucky Strike here in LA is always busy and that place has been here for years. Which is pretty good considering all the hot places in LA fizzle out after a few months. Then with the added retail stores and restaurants, I can see the Pavilions bringing people in everyday of the week. This place will be successful and is definitely going to be a catalyst for surrounding downtown development. Now let's stop worrying and start getting excited about the change that's coming for downtown Houston

[lockmat]

It's because they killed the residential portion of the project, yet they are touting they are trying to improve the downtown population after 5 p.m. .

Although the residential would have helped out a lot, I doubt those residences would be the ones anchoring the Pavilions. The Pavilions is almost a "mall." And who goes to the mall every day? And it's not like Houston is a walkable city, so just like every other mall and strip center, it will be no big deal for people to drive there. People will still go after 5pm. And the big plus, downtown is centrally located.

[The Great Hizzy!]

If the population base from those mere two residential midrises was going to have that much of an impact on the success of this project, then this project was/is doomed anyway. Like with Denver Pavillions, the development is looking to tap into the existing downtown population of workers, visitors and residential. I agree that it would be nice/cool to have the residential component at opening--and maybe it will eventually spawn an expansion some time after the grand opening--but the true success of this project--as it is/was with Denver--will come from the Pavillions' ability to lure workers, tourists and casual visitors downtown.

[Pumapayam]

Although the residential would have helped out a lot, I doubt those residences would be the ones anchoring the Pavilions. The Pavilions is almost a "mall." And who goes to the mall every day? And it's not like Houston is a walkable city, so just like every other mall and strip center, it will be no big deal for people to drive there. People will still go after 5pm. And the big plus, downtown is centrally located.

True, it would need a full fledged grocery store to make it walkable/liveable.

They did goof up.

Someone on here said it right, it is a tourist trap, in the lines of the novelty that is the Kemah Boardwalk.

I agree that it would be nice/cool to have the residential component at opening--and maybe it will eventually spawn an expansion some time after the grand opening.

Stucturally this will not happen, you can't support the same weight with supports designed for a lighter weight, and it would not be cost effective to have heavy duty supports for a future expansion that will never happen, especially after all the tenant settle in would complain of dust and noise scaring customers away.

Denver is a tourist destination?

Denver was also the last dinosaur!

He's my friend and a whole lot more!

[C2H]

Denver is a tourist destination?

No Denver is not a tourist destination. I have no idea what Shasta is talking about. Denver is a business city with a weak economy. Although its improving, its still not up to par for a major city.

I love Denver and it is the largest city in the state i live, but for real, just because it attracted "Real World" does not define it's vitality of an interesting city. Austin got real world, does that discredit San Antonio and Dallas as being interesting places?

I'm actually surprised at Shasta, usually his posts are usually way more imformative. That last one was a tad bit ignorant.

[Ethanra]

I'm kinda disappointed.

Big Suprise

[lockmat]

Denver was also the last dinosaur!

He's my friend and a whole lot more!

Denver? I thought it was Dino, isn't it? You photoshopped that? ha

And is tourism a bad thing????

Edited February 27, 2007 by lockmat

[Houston19514]

Out of curiosity, why is there only one tower instead of three? I know they took out the residential, but shouldn't that have been one tower gone instead of two. What happened to the other one? On another note, I seriously doubt this will end up like Bayou Place. What sets this apart is that there is actual retail instead of just restaurants and clubs. Plus the location, so close to the Toyota Center and MMP I can see regular foot traffic for the Pavilions. People can park and leave their car to go to the Pavilions and then walk over to a game. Bayou Place is on the edge of downtown making it a tough walk for anyone wanting to go there before or after a game. Also the Verzion Wireless Theater only attracts an audience certain days of the week when there's a show. The Pavilions has a House of Blues and also a Lucky Strike, which I can guarantee will bring people down there every night of the week. The Lucky Strike here in LA is always busy and that place has been here for years. Which is pretty good considering all the hot places in LA fizzle out after a few months. Then with the added retail stores and restaurants, I can see the Pavilions bringing people in everyday of the week. This place will be successful and is definitely going to be a catalyst for surrounding downtown development. Now let's stop worrying and start getting excited about the change that's coming for downtown Houston

There would have been two apartment "towers" (People keep calling them towers as if they were going to be 40-50 story structures, or even 20. I think there were intended to be more like 10-15 stories if that, hardly visible in downtown Houston.)

[The Great Hizzy!]

Stucturally this will not happen, you can't support the same weight with supports designed for a lighter weight, and it would not be cost effective to have heavy duty supports for a future expansion that will never happen, especially after all the tenant settle in would complain of dust and noise scaring customers away.

Oh, agreed. But I was talking about the project evolving to another block, such as the one with Josephine's on it (I know, I know, blasphemous) but still...

I truly believe the residential boom in DT Houston will be the results of a continuing strong economy, the growth of the Discovery Green area and the Pavillions area. That's an ideal critical mass of amenities that, along with the convenience of LRT, could make developers willing to "go get it."

We'll see.

[Pumapayam]

Denver? I thought it was Dino, isn't it? You photoshopped that? ha

And is tourism a bad thing????

Sadly, it was a real show that I watched as a kid.

[musicman]

I see that you said "personally"...what is your reasoning? The Niketown in SF when I visited did not have a "thug" element, and I would venture to guess that the ESPN Zone would attract about as many thugs as Fox Sports Grill in the Galleria does.

Location doesn't matter. The same Houston that you are well aware of that provides for most people to travel by car allows those thugs to go where they want just as easily. And they do.

there are certain sports related places that would more likely attract thugs just as there are those that would more likely to attract families. I can see that fox sports grill might attract a thug element just from the nature of the store. That is exactly my point.

i never said location matters. the espnzone could go anywhere and attract thugs.

[Pumapayam]

an ideal critical mass of amenities that, along with the convenience of LRT, could make developers willing to "go get it."

We'll see.

That is a good positive I can see, more ridership on the LTR.

Hopefully the Astroword plot anchors the other end of the LTR well too.

[TheNiche]

I really am excited about what this project represented or could have represented but am worried that in the end this will be another bayou place or park shops because they did not integrate residential with the project. The user group goes from residents and their guests who would view this as their 'neighborhood' to the initial secondary group of....... visitors of the park, the arena, and the 9-5 downtown workers, etc.. Everything is riding on these houstonians who do not live here. We've all have seen how that turns out. Once these people get bored with the pavilions they will look for entertainment elsewhere because there is no attachment.

Lets do the math.

As of the end of the 4th Quarter of 2006, according to O'Connor & Associates, there were 174.6 million square feet of retail space in the Houston area, of which 151.6 million square feet (86.84%) were occupied. According to Claritas, there were 5.33 million residents living in 1.86 million households (2.87 persons per household) in the 10-county Houston-Baytown-Sugar Land MSA. So, that means that for every one resident of the Houston area, there are about 28.4 square feet (or 81.5sf per HH) supported, on average.

Now let us make some outrageous assumptions that would be overly supportive of this project:

• Assume that the average resident of HP would've generated twice as much retail as the average resident of the Houston area, on account of their higher income.
  
• Assume that the average household size would've been the exact same as that in the region. This is a BS assumption because there would've been very few kids living in HP and because the number of bedrooms per housing unit at HP would've been fewer than the average number of bedrooms for housing units within the region.
  
• Assume that 100% of retail shopping by residents of the Houston Pavilions would've been done on-site. This is a BS assumption because there is no on-site grocery, and because not enough tenants can fit into 360,000 square feet for the typical person to be completely satiated. Besides, HP's tenant base is entertainment-oriented, and entertainment typically only comprises a relatively small portion of retail expenditures.
  

Taking these factors and assumptions into account, and that HP will have 360,000 square feet of retail space, it would take 2,209 residential units for Houston Pavilions to be self-sustaining.

Assuming that a much more reasonable number were implemented, say 400 units in total (not coincidentally, about the same number as would be developed in the old Texaco building), only 65,200 square feet would've been justified. But even that amount isn't realistic. Just look at my BS assumptions!

Houston Pavilions will not be a failure for lack of a residential component. If it becomes a failure, it will fail upon its own merits, for lack of desirable destination retailers.

Edited February 27, 2007 by TheNiche

[Houston19514]

Oh, agreed. But I was talking about the project evolving to another block, such as the one with Josephine's on it (I know, I know, blasphemous) but still...

I truly believe the residential boom in DT Houston will be the results of a continuing strong economy, the growth of the Discovery Green area and the Pavillions area. That's an ideal critical mass of amenities that, along with the convenience of LRT, could make developers willing to "go get it."

We'll see.

I think you are exactly right, Hizzy. And who really cares if the Pavilions developers build residential or if someone else does? (and BTW, someone else is, right around the corner at One Park Place, and we hear there is a lot more coming along soon). Downtown is a giant "mixed-use project." Some people need to get over the idea that every project must contain every mixed-use element in order to be successful. The urban elements not contained in HP are very nearby (department store, residential, hotels, other retail, etc etc etc., with more to come)

[Pumapayam]

There would have been two apartment "towers" (People keep calling them towers as if they were going to be 40-50 story structures, or even 20. I think there were intended to be more like 10-15 stories if that, hardly visible in downtown Houston.)

But still visible from the street, and would have added more housing to the DT market.

Living in DT is expensive, minus the old 2016 Main and the other ugly one.

[*]Assume that 100% of retail shopping by residents of the Houston Pavilions would've been done on-site. This is a BS assumption because there is no on-site grocery, and because not enough tenants can fit into 360,000 square feet for the typical person to be completely satiated. Besides, HP's tenant base is entertainment-oriented, and entertainment typically only comprises a relatively small portion of retail expenditures.

Randall's made a great attempted in Midtown, and the Whole Foods in Austin is a great example of how to build a grocery store, a huge one at that, in an urban environment.

Parking underground!

[musicman]

You are entirely true but HOUSTON is not Denver

Denver is actually considered a tourist destination and a 'hot' place to live. Houston is not either of these. Real World selected Denver because it is an exciting place when did they select Houston - they didn't. I've never been to Denver but I am going to guess that more people live in downtown Denver than in Houston. Plus I am going to guess that the tenants of teh Denver Pavilions are because those tenant wanted to be in downtown Denver whereas downtown Houston would be more of a gamble.

i can't believe you're using Real World as a source for anything!

[GovernorAggie]

The negative tenor of this board is really unbelievable and out of control. The construction of Houston Pavilions is HUGELY good news for downtown Houston anyway you look at it, ESPECIALLY when you consider that the very nearby One Park Place and Discovery Green are already under construction. (And keep in mind that we were told repeatedly by many of these same negative know-it-alls that Houston Pavilions would never happen, that Discover Green would never happen, that the One Park Place apartment tower would never happen...)

At what point does one notice that one's constant negative predictions are not coming true and realize that a lot of great stuff is happening in Houston Texas?

I agree with you. I am excited that downtown will have not one, not two, not three, not four, but over FIVE blocks of new development come online at the same time in 2008 (HP, One Park Place, Discovery Green). Like I said, everything that didn't go into HP doesn't mean that it won't happen later as a spin-off.

Who knows, maybe "The New West Bldg." will finally get something done--maybe be the home of my sports palaces (as well as that whole block of Main) and maybe the owner of the Main Food and $ Store will actually renovate that place into the restaurant that it was goning to be. Let's not forget about America Apparel and the new shoe store that will go in across from HP at the Humble Tower.

AND

Let's not leave out the retail possibilities of the parking garage u/c on Main. And the land put for sale by FUMC. And LandCo's potential 17-story residential development alongside Discovery Green. And Brookfield Properties' new office tower that would come online with the signing of just one anchor tenant.

I was getting a bit concerned myself, but it is evident now that the sky is indeed not falling downtown. Things are really looking up, IMO--WAY up.