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GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.


MontroseNeighborhoodCafe

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Not so sure about what you mean by "Denver Pavilions has done great." There have been many casualties on the restaurant side - including Wolfgang Puck's restaurant. Other smaller retailers - esp. on the upper levels - are long, long gone. There are many vacancies. Have you been there??

I live only an hour away from Denver and go up there as often as i can.

I think you misunderstood what i said in my previous post. I was saying that the Denver Pavilions has done a great job drawing retail in the general vincinity. Such as up and down 16th Street mall and other areas. I wasn't talking about just Denver Pavillions itself.

Edited by C2H
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Does Seattle or Denver have an area like our Uptown?Galleria area. Maybe Dt in those cities are the only areas that have highrise living. Houston is a diffrent breed. In my experience people who can afford to own an unit in a highrise prefer to live other places then DT - The Galleria are or by Herman Park for example...

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^^ An answer to your question. NO. I don't know about Seattle because i've never been. Downtown Denver is the only area in town and does not have competetition like downtown Houston has with Uptown/Galleria. That makes a huge difference. Houston seems more dynamic as a city because of the fact that it has multiple urban/shopping centers, but YES downtown Denver is far more vibrant.

Edited by C2H
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I live only an hour away from Denver and go up there as often as i can.

I think you misunderstood what i said in my previous post. I was saying that the Denver Pavilions has done a great job drawing retail in the general vincinity. Such as up and down 16th Street mall and other areas. I wasn't talking about just Denver Pavillions itself.

I've done a lot of real estate work and analysis in Denver, so sounds like we both have access to the city on a regular basis.

I understand what you are saying, but most of the retail on 16th was already there pre-Pavilions (I believe it entered the market around 2000). Tabor Center, as well as many of the buildings on 16th that have retail on the first floor, were well established long before the Pavilions project.

I hate to sound like a pessimist - anything is better than the current parking lots in that part of downtown Houston. It is just that we are constantly settling in Houston... things that are trying to get done in Houston today happened 20 years ago in some places. For such a progressive and open-minded city, our development community is sadly behind the times. A project that was completed 7 years ago in Denver - to lackluster success - is not what Houston should be supporting or emulating.

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I've done a lot of real estate work and analysis in Denver, so sounds like we both have access to the city on a regular basis.

I understand what you are saying, but most of the retail on 16th was already there pre-Pavilions (I believe it entered the market around 2000).

Actually, The Denver Pavilions was completed in 1998. But yes you're right, alot of the retail was there even prior to the Pavilions. But i want to be more optimistic. Downtown Denver didn't suffer the same depression downtown Houston did when all the retail that was originally there packed up and went to the Galleria area. The fact is there WAS retail in downtown Houston long time ago, and lucky enough there are still people in Houston that want to preserve history and bring the retail back. Houston has more separate markets to compete with than Denver, but things are changing. Offices are filling up and residents are moving in.

I don't know if you read the article but Denton and Jones did not say the residential population was suffering. They just knew that they would have to charge astronomical prices in the units to accodomodate the costs for the construction of underground parking. That is not indicating that the resident population isn't doing well or decent enough to warrant those units. That same thing could've happened anywhere.

I guess i'm trying to stay optimistic because for one, Houston will soon be my home for a couple of years. Two, i see alot of potential in Houston and am excited to see projects happen

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Actually, The Denver Pavilions was completed in 1998. But yes you're right, alot of the retail was there even prior to the Pavilions. But i want to be more optimistic. Downtown Denver didn't suffer the same depression downtown Houston did when all the retail that was originally there packed up and went to the Galleria area. The fact is there WAS retail in downtown Houston long time ago, and lucky enough there are still people in Houston that want to preserve history and bring the retail back. Houston has more separate markets to compete with than Denver, but things are changing. Offices are filling up and residents are moving in.

I don't know if you read the article but Denton and Jones did not say the residential population was suffering. They just knew that they would have to charge astronomical prices in the units to accodomodate the costs for the construction of underground parking. That is not indicating that the resident population isn't doing well or decent enough to warrant those units. That same thing could've happened anywhere.

I guess i'm trying to stay optimistic because for one, Houston will soon be my home for a couple of years. Two, i see alot of potential in Houston and am excited to see projects happen

Welcome. You won't be disappointed in Houston. It is an exciting city that you can say "expect the unexpected" and it happens. B)

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Plenty of projects are going up in Houston - There are cranes poping up all over the city, condos and townhomes are going up like crazy as well. Don't worry people, this project is a go. In my opinion DT Denver and Seattle has more residential and shopping then our DT because that only have one cenral area and also majority of our cities residential and shopping is in uptown/galleria area which is like a second DT.

Edited by Ethanra
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This was a joke, right? :closedeyes:

An honest question.

It isn't as though there aren't other areas of opportunity within the city where it'd be easier to stimulate major redevelopment on a more concentrated and grand scale (i.e. Buffalo Bayou corridor). Downtown/midtown are each just have this problem with divided ownership of a whole lot of tiny parcels that makes cohesive urban planning incredibly difficult.

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For such a progressive and open-minded city, our development community is sadly behind the times.

Perhaps then, Houston is not "progressive and open-minded.

An honest question.

It isn't as though there aren't other areas of opportunity within the city where it'd be easier to stimulate major redevelopment on a more concentrated and grand scale (i.e. Buffalo Bayou corridor). Downtown/midtown are each just have this problem with divided ownership of a whole lot of tiny parcels that makes cohesive urban planning incredibly difficult.

Doesn't the whole -no zoning- play a huge part in not having a cohesive urban area?

Plenty of projects are going up in Houston - There are cranes poping up all over the city, condos and townhomes are going up like crazy as well. Don't worry people, this project is a go. In my opinion DT Denver and Seattle has more residential and shopping then our DT because that only have one cenral area and also majority of our cities residential and shopping is in uptown/galleria area which is like a second DT.

Although Seattle and Denver do not have areas on the scale of The Galleria or the Medical Center, Their Downtown's are hardly the only area where residential and shopping coexist.

Edited by MiDTOWNeR
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This was a joke, right? :closedeyes:

He probably was serious. I don't think heritage and sense of place have much room in the world view of people like niche. It's a shame but I'm not surprised he doesn't have a grasp of the historical signifigance that downtown holds for many of us and the desire to see it grow and prosper over the wants of more strip center developement on the Katy Prairie. It is a deeply held belief for many that DT is worth preserving and growing.

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An honest question.

Well why even try to redevelope any area of town? Why not just all give up and pack on up outta town. Houston has been trying to re-establish Downtown as the heart and center of the city, from the freeway designs, to annexing everything in sight.

Geez Niche, I didn't figure you to be on the houstonsemipro end of the spectrum.

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There's no harm in asking the question. I'm constantly amazed at the inability of this forum to work through a dissenting opinion, or even to entertain a question to the established majority.

One answer to this question is the fact that sprawl has splintered the city and it's beginning to function more like disparate towns than the fourth largest city in the country. The redevelopment of Downtown is not really intended to make a tiny Manhattan. Instead, I believe it's intended to foster density through creation of a real city center. Traffic patterns, visitor destinations, employment, entertainment and shopping will all one day be centralized, allowing the growth patterns to radiate out from the center again. We'll also continue the trend of repopulating the dead zones inside the Loop and the Beltway. As density builds, the "satellite cities" and neighborhoods will begin to thrive. What I think we'll end up with is more of an LA or London model than a NY one. I think that would work quite well here in Houston.

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The Douchebag makes sense! What's more (and in an effort to expand upon Dal's point), if creating density is a priority, it would seem that you would take the opportunity to create that density where the largest employment centers are already established, since a supposed advantage of density is an ability to locate closer to one's job. The rub or the uniqueness to this concept as it relates to Houston is the fact that Houston has four major employment centers where densification or urbanization would seem to be most effective: Downtown, Uptown, TMC and Greenway Plaza.

DT seems to be a step ahead of the others but I sense a slowly developing trend (and albeit one that is more private in development than public) in the other three major employment centers.

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One answer to this question is the fact that sprawl has splintered the city and it's beginning to function more like disparate towns than the fourth largest city in the country.

Isn't sprawl what made Houston the 4th largest town? Without annexing everything in site would the town be the 4th largest? Has Houston in fact ever really had the opportunity to function as one cohesive unit?

Edited by MiDTOWNeR
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Aside from wondering what a "cohesive unit" is as it relates to a city, one might ask if ANY big city functions as one cohesive unit, as opposed to dozens of villages governed by an umbrella government. Since everyone's favorite big city is New York, let us start there. Is a city comprised of five separate counties a cohesive unit? Is a city that consist of three islands and one peninsula a cohesive unit? Even Manhattan, a 23 mile long island that takes an hour to traverse, does not qualify.

Moving on to Chicago, the North Side and the South Side are two separate and distinct worlds. Can it be called a cohesive unit? Do we even want to attempt to quantify Los Angeles? Even Dallas, a city half the size of Houston has its North Side and South Side (and even a West Side) and never the two shall meet.

All big cities are a collection of neighborhoods, each with its own dynamic. The Heights marches to a different drum than Montrose, which in turn is different from Greenway, the Galleria, TMC or Downtown. Yet, all are within several miles of each other. The city limits are merely the government boundaries. The "cohesive unit" in any large city is much smaller than the city limits, regardless of how dense or sprawling that city may be.

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There's no harm in asking the question. I'm constantly amazed at the inability of this forum to work through a dissenting opinion, or even to entertain a question to the established majority.

One answer to this question is the fact that sprawl has splintered the city and it's beginning to function more like disparate towns than the fourth largest city in the country. The redevelopment of Downtown is not really intended to make a tiny Manhattan. Instead, I believe it's intended to foster density through creation of a real city center. Traffic patterns, visitor destinations, employment, entertainment and shopping will all one day be centralized, allowing the growth patterns to radiate out from the center again. We'll also continue the trend of repopulating the dead zones inside the Loop and the Beltway. As density builds, the "satellite cities" and neighborhoods will begin to thrive. What I think we'll end up with is more of an LA or London model than a NY one. I think that would work quite well here in Houston.

Good Post...

I apologize if your directing your amazement of "inhability" (of the forum) at my short answer, I couldn't leave without posting a general thought, but I didn't have time to give deep thought or a insightful observation.

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I apologize if your directing your amazement of "inhability" (of the forum) at my short answer, I couldn't leave without posting a general thought, but I didn't have time to give deep thought or a insightful observation.

Nah .. just in general. Lots of people play devil's advocate here from time to time and are crucified for it. I don't really get it. There's a gang mentality here sometimes that won't even allow anyone to ask a question if it seems to go against a "pro-Houston" line of thought. Many times, the question is just meant to generate discussion.

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He probably was serious. I don't think heritage and sense of place have much room in the world view of people like niche. It's a shame but I'm not surprised he doesn't have a grasp of the historical signifigance that downtown holds for many of us and the desire to see it grow and prosper over the wants of more strip center developement on the Katy Prairie. It is a deeply held belief for many that DT is worth preserving and growing.

I'm not sure what heritage has to do with downtown redevelopment. If we tear up some surface parking and install a park, haven't we just eliminated part of our 'surface parking heritage'? Likewise, to bulldoze so many older buildings to install Minutemaid Park and its parking lots seems to have eliminated a lot of heritage. New development would seem to detract from heritage.

Or perhaps, on the other hand, heritage just changes... Perhaps heritage is what we make of it. It neither deserves protection nor need be static. Heritage is everything within four-dimensional space. The vibrant downtown that existed pre-WW2 is part of that heritage, just as is the glorified business park that it became by the 80's and as are the expectations of what downtown might become. In this sense of the term, I'm all for the promotion and creation of heritage...and not just within the context of a neighborhood or some arbitrarily-defined space, but within a much greater context...the human context. And I firmly believe that the best way to do that is to foster economic policy that permits people to make their own choices. Forcing urban environments (among other things) down people's throats would be a slap in the face IF there aren't enough people that want it to justify the expense. Perhaps the people want something else. In most cases, let the people decide. That, I suppose, is my prevailing worldview...subject to change, of course.

Now as for the accusation that I don't care about the 'sense of place', that's just B.S. But the City seems to exert so much effort on such difficult places. My criticism is that there are other places close to downtown where we can get a better bang for the buck when it comes to public intervention. I mean, by virtue of its location, places like Midtown will eventually develop just fine on its own if we just leave it alone and let developers do what they do. But think about all those large tracts along Buffalo Bayou. The land cost on a per square foot basis is still relatively low on account of the tracts being so large. It would probably still be feasible for developers to put in nothing but townhomes of the sort that went in on the Markle Steel property, with apartments/condos only thrown in right along the waterfront. They could be gated communities, isolated from the urban environment. On the other hand, there's enough contiguous redevelopable land out there with enough of a selling point that they could also be formed into profoundly cool waterfront districts with pedestrian bridges connecting each side of the bayou. So take your pick. I know where I'd try to devote more resources from Planning, PW&E, and Parks departments if I were mayor.

Interesting that more cities don't agree with your opinion.

Only so much as it is interesting that hundreds of thousands of people waste countless hours of their lives with online gaming. One of them tried to pull the "so many people can't be wrong" line on me one time. Bull.

Frankly, I don't care how many people (psst...cities can't agree on account of that they aren't sentient) disagree with me. Although I'll be the first to admit that I won't always be correct, or that I'll even know what correct looks like, I'd like to think that I at least have intellectual integrity.

I hope that you hold yourself to the same standard.

Edited by TheNiche
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Downtown is a word that has alot of meaning. Its the Capital of our little city-state, housing our goverment. If someone asks "What does Houston Look like", (or any city for that matter) usually a picture of Downtown is used for our unique postcard, or offering, or symbol/representation to the world. All freeways (not literally) lead there.

The image we all picture of "Houston" more then likely is just a picture of Downtown, viewed from the west side.

I'll start off by saying this is not meant as a boost, but as an observation of why Downtown would be important for any city, but we live in Houston, so I'm using Houston.

I believe it to be vital to not let our symbol, our cities' focus, become victum of neglect. Somehow, everyday, everyone in this metropolis will make, hear, or see a referance to Downtown. "Yeah, I have court duty today", "My mom works Downtown".

When someone asks you where you live, if you Don't live in the city limits, your going to say Houston. or a "Suburb of Houston". So Downtown is a point of referance to us all. (In a raw view of the world).

It would be a shame to let our symbol, not only for the world, but for us, to not be what it is... the center.

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Downtown is a word that has alot of meaning. Its the Capital of our little city-state, housing our goverment. If someone asks "What does Houston Look like", (or any city for that matter) usually a picture of Downtown is used for our unique postcard, or offering, or symbol/representation to the world. All freeways (not literally) lead there.

The image we all picture of "Houston" more then likely is just a picture of Downtown, viewed from the west side.

I'll start off by saying this is not meant as a boost, but as an observation of why Downtown would be important for any city, but we live in Houston, so I'm using Houston.

I believe it to be vital to not let our symbol, our cities' focus, become victum of neglect. Somehow, everyday, everyone in this metropolis will make, hear, or see a referance to Downtown. "Yeah, I have court duty today", "My mom works Downtown".

When someone asks you where you live, if you Don't live in the city limits, your going to say Houston. or a "Suburb of Houston". So Downtown is a point of referance to us all. (In a raw view of the world).

It would be a shame to let our symbol, not only for the world, but for us, to not be what it is... the center.

In the words of George Carlin, "I'll leave symbols to the symbol-minded".

A symbol is nothing without substance. What does downtown Houston's postcard skyline say to the world? Does it say anything about public investment or urban planning? Or does it speak to the lack thereof? Truthfully, symbols can have many different meanings to different people, and they usually wind up getting twisted out of context at some point...sometimes to very dangerous ends. This is why Carlin's simple pun is genius.

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In the words of George Carlin, "I'll leave symbols to the symbol-minded".

A symbol is nothing without substance. What does downtown Houston's postcard skyline say to the world? Does it say anything about public investment or urban planning? Or does it speak to the lack thereof? Truthfully, symbols can have many different meanings to different people, and they usually wind up getting twisted out of context at some point...sometimes to very dangerous ends. This is why Carlin's simple pun is genius.

Symbols are connections, puzzle pieces. In the words of my own, those who dismiss symbols, dismiss entities, and therefore I dismiss you as a Antihumanist. ...Ahem, I don't know where that came from.

I don't say I stand at one or the other, But I did try to say a 'raw' view.

Keeping Downtown Healthy and attractive is a good idea no matter what. Downtown is a big neighborhood of our city, more employers there then anywhere else. With so many people working there, why would you not want to make 'it' better?

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Symbols are connections, puzzle pieces. In the words of my own, those who dismiss symbols, dismiss entities, and therefore I dismiss you as a Antihumanist. ...Ahem, I don't know where that came from.

I don't say I stand at one or the other, But I did try to say a 'raw' view.

Keeping Downtown Healthy and attractive is a good idea no matter what. Downtown is a big neighborhood of our city, more employers there then anywhere else. With so many people working there, why would you not want to make 'it' better?

Symbols are merely an intermediary by which the meaning of an entity may be conveyed. Nothing more. And just because something might be said about an entity does not mean that it would be prudent--many things might be said. Some things that might be said or symbolized may lead to certain undesirable events (erradication of various ethnic groups, for instance). Other things that might outwardly appear positive may have underlying meanings for various individuals. Symbols may be a shared part of human existence, but they are shared asymetrically. They are inherently imperfect.

I myself prefer to erradicate excessive symbolism (and yes, I recognize the irony/hypocracy considering my typical lack of brevity) in favor of the core meaning of the entity. And if nothing need be said, then let us say nothing. Let it be what it is; giving it a name or a face will not change that.

Indeed, downtown Houston warrants civic resources; it should be made better. But it does not warrant special allocations, exclusive of other urbanized areas of the City, in most cases.

The City should be made better.

Edited by TheNiche
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, Frankly, I don't care how many people (psst...cities can't agree on account of that they aren't sentient) disagree with me. Although I'll be the first to admit that I won't always be correct, or that I'll even know what correct looks like, I'd like to think that I at least have intellectual integrity.

I hope that you hold yourself to the same standard.

blah blah blah.....

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