GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[citykid09]

^ You know how stupid some people are. They say things like "We don't wont the traffic running are community" "There will be too much activity in that area and we won't our community to stay peaceful." STUPID PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kjb434]

I think some of the city council members from poor socio-economic areas of the city would be the ones that oppose TIRZ expansion. They clame the TIRZs are just boondogles for developer and rich people and don't benefit everyone. This can be the sticking points. Also, if you were a city council member from a district that doesn include downtown but includes uptown, would you be for it. This could hurt your district.

I don't think it'll be a slam dunk, but I can see Mayor White putting his political force in support of the TIRZ expansion and talk about how good it will be for the overall city and squash other opposing council members.

[ssullivan]

A key to making downtown a "happening", sustainable place is to keep it busy at nights on weekdays, which means providing for out-of-town businesspeople, many of which are traveling solo.

I have a large number of out-of-town clients and co-workers come to town every week. 99 times out of a 100, they choose to stay in the Uptown/Galleria area, even if they are working downtown. Why? Because, when you are braindead after a day of meetings, and have work to do for the next day, you just want something known and familiar for dinner, and somewhere to wander around for a bit to clear your head. This means: a hamburger at Chili's and a walk around the Galleria.

Maybe my coworkers and I are the exceptions to this, but when I'm on a business trip I love it when I can eat at local, unique places and wonder around in areas that aren't full of stores I see everywhere else. Most of the people I work with are like this too. I can eat at Chili's in any on eof several hundred cities in this country.

I hate it when I get sent places where Chili's or any one of its clones is the only, or best option. I'm stuck in one of those right now in rural North Carolina and can't wait until Thursday night when I'm staying in Raleigh and have some hope of finding something other than mass-produced reheated frozen food from a factory someplace. I don't know; maybe I'm just unique in that respect. But I'd much rather have something different when I'm on the road than something I can get at home anytime I want it.

[RedScare]

Hey, ssullivan, when you get to Raleigh, say Hi to my cousin, John Odom. He is the Deputy Mayor.

[The Great Hizzy!]

What an awesome article in that it continues to put the spotlight on the city's effort to make downtown a focal point in Houston's social and cultural evolution. To pay homage to what our brow-beaten friend, Velvet J, has been pushing, I'd like to see the Chronicle adopt a "Downtown Report" that comes out every Friday or Sunday, to keep downtown in the spotlight and to help advertise what's already on tap and what's coming soon.

If any of you folks from the Chronicle are reading this thread, I hope you take such an idea into consideration.

[greystone08(returns)]

Listening to the story on KTRK, they mentioned that the two developer guys had already done a similar project in Denver. Anyone here ever seen it? If so, what did you think of it, and would it work here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, i lived in Denver for a while and noticed the big influx of retail and urban activity that the Denver Pavilions initiated. Now there are people walking up and down 16th Street Mall almost every day and it's like an Outdoor Mall basically.

I have to say, if the city denies these developers the opportunity, i'm just going to hang up all my hopes for Houston. I might even cry!!!

grey

[citykid09]

I am sure they will do everything they can to get this, but there is sure to be some snags in trying to get this thing built.

[RedScare]

They will be denied nothing. This is exactly why the city, county and Metro spent all that money sprucing up downtown. The only question is what infrastructure needs they have and whether the city can afford it.

[citykid09]

Hey, ssullivan, when you get to Raleigh, say Hi to my cousin, John Odom.

[RedScare]

Is this your cousin?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup! Sure is. I believe he may now be the former deputy mayor. Last time I talked to him, it seemed like his term was coming to an end, and he may have been term limited.

Just googled him. He is now on the convention center board. Great guy, even if if he is a Duke fan.

[citykid09]

You and your cousins must not be close?

[VelvetJ]

To pay homage to what our brow-beaten friend, Velvet J, has been pushing, I'd like to see the Chronicle adopt a "Downtown Report" that comes out every Friday or Sunday, to keep downtown in the spotlight and to help advertise what's already on tap and what's coming soon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now THAT would please me, which we all know is the most important thing.

[skwatra]

Listening to the story on KTRK, they mentioned that the two developer guys had already done a similar project in Denver. Anyone here ever seen it? If so, what did you think of it, and would it work here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i go to denver a few times a year, and this area has been busier everytime i go. the layout is nice, and works well for downtown denver. i think it'll be very good for downtown, and take us in the right direction. hopefully we'll get some good retail, restaurants and bars.

[RedScare]

Now THAT would please me, which we all know is the most important thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For you, Velvet, anything.

[Houston Retail]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/m...politan/3322833

There was a news segment on fox last night, and a chron story today breaking the news about this project.

They have asked for $ from the city and the people I know with the city are excited and ecouraged to see this project happen.

[brijonmang]

they arent the only ones...tell "your peeps" to check out these forums and show them just how excited we all are

[nate]

Good article.

Let's hope the city agrees on letting the TIRZ expand.  Those districts have long been a great catalyst for development.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Terrible idea. They may help develop certain areas, but at the expense the rest of the city.

I don't want the city giving subsidies or tax breaks to anyone. Houston is a wonderful city because of competition. We have no zoning, which keeps costs low and supply abundant. I hope that Houston continues to let private ventures rise or fall on the merits. Is it fair to developers Uptown or elsewhere that they have to compete with a subsidized development downtown? I don't think so. If this will not be profitable, then it should not be built. Cut and dry. Don't ask the taxpayers to prop up white elephants like our convention business or the disastrous redevelopment projects that cities all over the country have tried.

[RedScare]

nate, a TIRZ does not give subsidies or tax breaks to a company or a development. It dedicates the increase in tax revenue that results from increasing property values to be spent in the area that increased in value. In other words, the increased taxes are spent on public works projects, such as streets, signs and landscaping in the area that pays the taxes. It encourages more spending by the private companies, without giving them any handouts.

TIRZ' can be abused, to be sure, but the tax revenue does technically go to the benefit of the citizens by improving the public infrastructure. They are intended to be used to improve depressed areas, as I am sure most would agree that downtown main street was depressed.

[2112]

Terrible idea. They may help develop certain areas, but at the expense the rest of the city.

I don't want the city giving subsidies or tax breaks to anyone. Houston is a wonderful city because of competition. We have no zoning, which keeps costs low and supply abundant. I hope that Houston continues to let private ventures rise or fall on the merits. Is it fair to developers Uptown or elsewhere that they have to compete with a subsidized development downtown? I don't think so. If this will not be profitable, then it should not be built. Cut and dry. Don't ask the taxpayers to prop up white elephants like our convention business or the disastrous redevelopment projects that cities all over the country have tried.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I beg to differ sir. Complete free enterprise doesn

[hokieone]

Yeah I guess I got my answer on whether or not there was anyone out there that would oppose the city working with the Pavilions to get them done. As someone else said, there is always someone out there that will oppose things, which is their fair right to do. I also don't completely understand TIRZ's but doesn't uptown also have TIRZ's?

[houstonfella]

Terrible idea. They may help develop certain areas, but at the expense the rest of the city.

I don't want the city giving subsidies or tax breaks to anyone. Houston is a wonderful city because of competition. We have no zoning, which keeps costs low and supply abundant. I hope that Houston continues to let private ventures rise or fall on the merits. Is it fair to developers Uptown or elsewhere that they have to compete with a subsidized development downtown? I don't think so. If this will not be profitable, then it should not be built. Cut and dry. Don't ask the taxpayers to prop up white elephants like our convention business or the disastrous redevelopment projects that cities all over the country have tried.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The NFL and the annual Quilt Convention, as well as lots of others, would beg to differ on your opinion that the GRB is a "white elephant." So do I.

[nate]

The NFL and the annual Quilt Convention, as well as lots of others, would beg to differ on your opinion that the GRB is a "white elephant."  So do I.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does anyone think that Hilton would have ever built the Hilton of the Americas without taxpayer support?

Does anyone think a fancy hotel with $75 rooms and 50% vacancy is a good business venture?

The convention business has been in the toilet for years, but cities all over the country continue to use their taxpayer's money to finance these insane projects. I simply don't understand what the convention business does for Houston that is so worthy of this subsidy. So some quilters spend two days downtown and go to a bar on mainstreet and return to their $75 city-subsidized room. Nice. Is that worth the millions spent by the public? I don't think so. Why ask poor people in East Houston to pay higher taxes so that some quilters can enjoy the pleasures of downtown Houston?

[nate]

nate, a TIRZ does not give subsidies or tax breaks to a company or a development.  It dedicates the increase in tax revenue that results from increasing property values to be spent in the area that increased in value.  In other words, the increased taxes are spent on public works projects, such as streets, signs and landscaping in the area that pays the taxes.  It encourages more spending by the private companies, without giving them any handouts.

TIRZ' can be abused, to be sure, but the tax revenue does technically go to the benefit of the citizens by improving the public infrastructure.  They are intended to be used to improve depressed areas, as I am sure most would agree that downtown main street was depressed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In other words, the area around the Pavillions will have great landscaping for the next 30 years while the rest of the city crumbles because tax revenue cannot be spent outside the district. Last that I checked, midtown had great roads and nice sidewalks. Much of the rest of Houston is in dire need of street repair.

Targeting development in city approved areas is dangerous.

[nate]

I beg to differ sir.  Complete free enterprise doesn

[citykid09]

In other words, the area around the Pavillions will have great landscaping for the next 30 years while the rest of the city crumbles because tax revenue cannot be spent outside the district. Last that I checked, midtown had great roads and nice sidewalks. Much of the rest of Houston is in dire need of street repair.

Targeting development in city approved areas is dangerous.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have seen some pretty embarrassing streets around Houston. Streets with ditches?????? Come on you're the 4th largest city in the USA and you still have ditches. People from other cities come to Houston and see that and they laugh.

[houston-development]

a TIRZ is only a tax incentive to encourage new development. there are no kickbacks nor hand outs.

hypothetically speaking: the city makes $10k in taxes on a piece of undeveloped dirt located in a TIRZ. a developer comes in and builds a retail center. if this development were not located in a TIRZ, he would pay full boat of what the tax assessor valued his property. however being in a TIRZ, he only pays a % of that assessment but still pays more than the $10k the city was collecting. this is in addition to state and local tax revenue generated by the new businesses.

[jt16]

Why ask poor people in East Houston to pay higher taxes so that some quilters can enjoy the pleasures of downtown Houston?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because those quilters come and provide jobs that those poor people might not otherwise have.

[eelimon]

I don't really understand what you are trying to say.

Most fluctuations that you mention are caused by monetary policy, not the vagrancy of the free market. There would probably be very few recessions if the government could manage the money supply properly.

As for the airline business, compare the regulated industry before 1980 to the industry today. Flights are so much cheaper and will only get less expensive as competition forces change. Think of the CAB as a city planning commission that drives up costs and decides who gets what. The unregulated industry operates based on what consumers want, not what planners think they ought to want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why is every one ganging up on nate?

I did not agree with anything he had to say, but I am not ganging up on him.

Ya

[RedScare]

I have seen some pretty imbarising streets around Houston, streets with ditches?????? Come on your the 4th largest city in the USA and you still have ditches. People from other cities come to Houston and see that and they laugh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not half as embarrassing as your spelling. What exemplary school system produced that?

I am also continually impressed by those who know what the millions of visitors to Houston say, think and tell their friends about what they see here. None of my visiting friends have ever laughed at my ditch. I suppose you didn't get to talk to them.

Aren't you from Bryan, citykid? If I recall my days at A&M, there was a bar ditch or two up there.

[ssullivan]

Does anyone think a fancy hotel with $75 rooms and 50% vacancy is a good business venture?

Just for the record, the average weekend rates at the Hilton Americas run upwards of $135-140/night. Weeknight rates are running about twice that, in the $260-300/night range. And the occupancy rate is often more than 50%. My parents stayed at the hotel two weeks ago and the occupancy rate that weekend was way over 50%, as the place was packed both Friday and Saturday night. Both the restaurant on the first floor and the coffee bar were doing a booming business at breakfast on that Saturday, with many people buying the $14 breakfast buffet.

Hotels don't just make money off guest rooms. There's a ton of profit in their catering and meeting room services, as well as bars and restaurants. The Hilton Americas handles a ton of smaller meetings and conferences, which all pay for meeting room rentals and food, and if the event is pulling in out-of-towners, guestrooms.

I don't think the Hilton Americas is hurting all that much. If it was, Hilton would be offering some much better weekend specials at the property than they are to keep it full.