Houston Pavilions, Now Green Street

[arrodiii]

I'm on the fence about that...I would prefer a retailer get the space as opposed to another movie theater in downtown

[kylejack]

Yeah, we have Sundance. We don't need a second theater, and the space isn't big enough.

[houstonartstudent]

The first floor next to the Books A Million looks to be available.  If they did build it, Sundance probably wouldn't make it with that and Alamo Drafthouse planned nearby...but I agree retail would be nice...but so would free parking

[j_cuevas713]

I disagree, as great as retail would be, there needs to be more competition, if Sundance is all there is than it can become very stagnant. The more competition and choices people have, the more we can begin to see sustainable growth downtown. This is just a movie theater, but evem if it was retail, in order for it to survive and fight in the market, it would need competition of some kind.

[kylejack]

I disagree, as great as retail would be, there needs to be more competition, if Sundance is all there is than it can become very stagnant. The more competition and choices people have, the more we can begin to see sustainable growth downtown. This is just a movie theater, but evem if it was retail, in order for it to survive and fight in the market, it would need competition of some kind.

 

I think ticket sales for both Angelika and Sundance have shown that Downtown can currently support about one movie theater. The fact that iPic and Sundance are both "premium" style theaters makes it even worse.

[swtsig]

I disagree, as great as retail would be, there needs to be more competition, if Sundance is all there is than it can become very stagnant. The more competition and choices people have, the more we can begin to see sustainable growth downtown. This is just a movie theater, but evem if it was retail, in order for it to survive and fight in the market, it would need competition of some kind.

it's like you completely ignored the whole "supply/demand" aspect of free market capitalism. what does adding compettion have to do with "surviving and fighting in the market"? as kylejack mentioned the numbers have shown that the premium theater market in downtown is plenty served by one theater so how does adding another at this point in time do anything other than cannibalize themselves into non-existence?

[livincinco]

Has anything happened in the last five years that should make any of us feel like HP is capable of supporting significant retail? IMO, Pavilions is (and may always be) a dining and entertainment complex that has a minor retail component.

Regarding whether downtown can support two movie theaters, there were a lot of people that also questioned whether downtown could support two grocery stores, but that seems to be going pretty well.

What kills me about HP is the lack of development that has occurred between there and Discovery Green/Toyota Center. There are about five blocks that would seem to be prime opportunities for development. Anybody know why that hasn't happened?

[RedScare]

Well, there is the "restaurant row" phenomenon, but I have never seen any research suggesting that the same phenomenon applies to movie theaters. For those who have never heard of "restaurant rows", studies show that one restaurant in an area may struggle, but as more restaurants open in the same area, that area becomes known for having several restaurant choices. People who are unsure exactly what they want to eat will tend to drive to the "restaurant row", confident that at least one of the many choices will satisfy them. For instance, I may drive to Washington Avenue, or Rice Village without having a particular place in mind, and decide where to eat once I get there.

 

Again, I am unsure if this applies to movie theatres. It might. That could help explain multiplexes.

[livincinco]

I am unsure if this applies to movie theatres. It might. That could help explain multiplexes.

I was thinking more of overall entertainment options in the context of places like LA Live or CityWalk in LA. Those are primarily restaurant and entertainment driven places that have become "destinations" for a night out. The difference with LA Live is that it's built literally around the Staples Center which has three professional teams that constantly drive traffic.

[kylejack]

Regarding whether downtown can support two movie theaters, there were a lot of people that also questioned whether downtown could support two grocery stores, but that seems to be going pretty well.

 

I think you're counting chickens that aren't hatched. Georgia's is a long way from being a grocery store, and as best as I can tell, it is struggling. Their website went down for a while due to a slow payment to their PR firm, I heard.

[102IAHexpress]

HP seemed promising at first, but the moment the residential component was axed, it made the task of supplying downtown locals too difficult. No tunnel access for the daytime crowd did not help. And I cant speak for all of downtown's residents but I live at Rice Lofts and for me HP is too far to walk to on a regular basis. As far as the rumored movie theatre goes, why would I walk farther and get bummed more when I can get a better experience at sundance just down the street from me?

[fatesdisastr]

HP seemed promising at first, but the moment the residential component was axed, it made the task of supplying downtown locals too difficult. No tunnel access for the daytime crowd did not help. And I cant speak for all of downtown's residents but I live at Rice Lofts and for me HP is too far to walk to on a regular basis. As far as the rumored movie theatre goes, why would I walk farther and get bummed more when I can get a better experience at sundance just down the street from me?

 

Spoken like a true Houstonian haha. Wouldn't walk a half mile on a regular basis.

[RedScare]

Wants a pedestrian environment. Too lazy to be a pedestrian. Someone else's fault.

 

There's probably a life lesson there somewhere.

[102IAHexpress]

Maybe you don't live in downtown, but I do. And getting bummed on a regular basis gets annoying fast. The farther you walk the more times you get bummed. Simple science. It has nothing to do with laziness, I regularly cross the entire tunnel system during lunch, it rather has to do with peace of mind. I'm okay with getting bummed once on they way to Sundance, but not 3 times on the way to HP. But maybe HP knows something I don't? maybe they're turning big profits over there?

[RedScare]

Not everyone is cut out for urban living. Maybe you should look into other living arrangements. As for living downtown, I don't. However, I officed downtown from 1997. I think I've met my share of bums. It never got to me to the point of not walking where I wanted to go. Again, urban life isn't for everyone.

[102IAHexpress]

Actually i put my money where my mouth is. I live and work in downtown. My fiance lives and works in Downtown. We are fully commited to this neighborhood. But i am also realistic. and i know Downtown's limitations. I'm sorry that hurts your feelings so much. But i don't have any control over your feelings. There's a reason why there is a network of tunnel's underneath the streets of downtown. Thousands of people prefer the tunnels. HP decided to build their development without tunnel access. That's there choice in a free market, but they will get no sympathy from me when the alienated locals flock somewhere else...

[samagon]

Distances in downtown are not measured in miles, but by how many times you have to ignore someone, or say "no, sorry".

 

What 2 grocery stores are there?

 

There's Randalls, which is close to downtown, and is what I would consider the only real grocery store in the downtown area.

 

There's Phoenecia, it's nice to pick up some interesting stuff there from time to time, but in my estimation, for a place to be called a grocery store, they need to have a healthy fresh produce selection, not just deli meats, cheese, and lots of already prepared food. But Phoenecia's example of a fresh produce section is a single open cooler with week old vegetables that are all far too squishy. One thing Phoenecia has going for it though, I don't have to pass isle after isle of processed junk to get from one side to the other.

 

I'm having a hard time thinking of anything else in downtown, CVS on main maybe?

 

I'm also having a hard time envisioning a second movie theater doing well downtown, specifically in such a niche market.

Edited February 26, 2013 by samagon

[RedScare]

 I'm sorry that hurts your feelings so much. But i don't have any control over your feelings. 

 

I'm not the one whose upper lip is quivering over bums. My feelings are just fine, thank you.

 

By the way, HP is not a half mile from Rice Lofts. It is actually just over a quarter mile. 6 blocks at 250 feet per block. That's some serious commitment to downtown right there.

[kylejack]

Maybe you don't live in downtown, but I do. And getting bummed on a regular basis gets annoying fast. The farther you walk the more times you get bummed. Simple science. It has nothing to do with laziness, I regularly cross the entire tunnel system during lunch, it rather has to do with peace of mind. I'm okay with getting bummed once on they way to Sundance, but not 3 times on the way to HP. But maybe HP knows something I don't? maybe they're turning big profits over there?

 

I live downtown. Six blocks is not a long way to walk. If a person asks you for something you don't want to give them, simply say No. I don't even make up sob stories about being out of change. I just say, "No" and they leave me alone. Try it.

I'm not the one whose upper lip is quivering over bums. My feelings are just fine, thank you.

 

By the way, HP is not a half mile from Rice Lofts. It is actually just over a quarter mile. 6 blocks at 250 feet per block. That's some serious commitment to downtown right there.

 

Yeah but the round trip, man! The round trip!

[kylejack]

Distances in downtown are not measured in miles, but by how many times you have to ignore someone, or say "no, sorry".

 

What 2 grocery stores are there?

 

There's Randalls, which is close to downtown, and is what I would consider the only real grocery store in the downtown area.

 

There's Phoenecia, it's nice to pick up some interesting stuff there from time to time, but in my estimation, for a place to be called a grocery store, they need to have a healthy fresh produce selection, not just deli meats, cheese, and lots of already prepared food. But Phoenecia's example of a fresh produce section is a single open cooler with week old vegetables that are all far too squishy. One thing Phoenecia has going for it though, I don't have to pass isle after isle of processed junk to get from one side to the other.

 

I'm having a hard time thinking of anything else in downtown, CVS on main maybe?

 

I'm also having a hard time envisioning a second movie theater doing well downtown, specifically in such a niche market.

 

The two grocery stores referred to are Phoenicia and Georgia's.

Actually i put my money where my mouth is. I live and work in downtown. My fiance lives and works in Downtown. We are fully commited to this neighborhood. But i am also realistic. and i know Downtown's limitations. I'm sorry that hurts your feelings so much. But i don't have any control over your feelings. There's a reason why there is a network of tunnel's underneath the streets of downtown. Thousands of people prefer the tunnels. HP decided to build their development without tunnel access. That's there choice in a free market, but they will get no sympathy from me when the alienated locals flock somewhere else...

 

That's true, but they're avoiding the heat, not the bums.

[Pleak]

This has gotten absolutely hilarious.    Once again,  the hue and cry about make Houston more walkable- blah, blah, blah.

 

But not for me.  I might have to look at someone icky.

 

I've said it before in other threads- people really want Cinco Ranch in the Heights, Midtown, Downtown.  Where everybody looks just like them and THEY can control who lives there,  who walks on the streets, what color they paint thier house/condo/apartment door.

 

They think they are all hip and urbane but in reality they are just like their suburban parents they are so desparately trying to run away from.

[102IAHexpress]

My fiance works for  MHMRA of Harris County and is assigned to the Harris County Jail. She works with most mentally disturbed people in the county. In fact she has commited her life to them. She sees them five days a week eight hours a day. When she gets home after work she does not want to be harrased by any more mentally disturbed people then she has to on the way to a resteraunt. sometimes it's not as easy as just saying no thank you and walking away. Sometimes bums are seriously mentally ill and are a danger to themselves and others. Sometimes they are just bums and want money and nothing more. I don't want to do a case study on bums. I would rather just avoid them if i could. HP designed their development poorly. I don't want it to fail, i just don't think it's realisitic to think it will suceed... But what do i know, i just live here.

[kylejack]

I've lived downtown since 2008 and "No" has always sufficed. Nobody's ever tried to hurt me or follow me.

 

I do agree that street harassment of women downtown is a problem, though, and not just by "bums."

[samagon]

I ogle my fair share (perhaps more than my fair share) of good looking women, but I blame them for looking good, and they hopefully don't take it as harassment.

 

As far as bums go, I've found as well that saying "no" works well.

 

The problem I find is when I'm with someone who stops and talks, or tries to save every person on the street, if your fiancee is that way, then that would be a problem. Did the bum ask for someone to talk to, or for money?

 

Maybe the bum is the real victim here, they just want to panhandle their way into their next beer, and as much as your fiancee thinks they want the help, they do not want to talk about why they are where they are in life.

 

If your fiancee is like the women who I know that are like that, it's best to not breach that subject and easier to find ways to avoid bums, because she probably will never accept the fact that not everyone wants to be helped, and it will end with an argument about how callous you are.

Edited February 26, 2013 by samagon

[arrodiii]

I have lived in downtown since around 2002-2003 and a simple "No" or a shake of the head usually suffices for being an answer to panhandlers or just plain ignore them and continue walking.  I really dont think that I have ever had one continue on after I do any of these.  Sure they may curse me out or call me a liar, but I am also still going to where I was going in the first place.  If you really are intent on getting by without geting "bummed" or asked to help someone out with bus fare, food, drink, etc., it's not hard to, especially if you are used to living in a real urban environment.

 

And yes, I walk everywhere (gave up my car back in 2000); no there are no "real" grocery stores in downtown proper; the tunnels were made for commuting from one end of dt to the other in the summer without getting heat stroke, and dt should not have two movie theaters without the proper number of residents living in downtown to be able to sustain both.

[jgriff]

I was threatened by a bum downtown once. He told me to give him my shoes or he would kill me. Luckily he was too high on something to stay upright. When I worked in downtown I would walk sometimes 10 miles a day. The bums are usually not dangerous, they're just ugly and disgusting. I don't want to live, eat, go to a movie or otherwise spend any time around them. They have a right to exist, but I also have my right to avoid them and shall continue to do so. I do the same with ugly areas of Houston. Greenspoint, Sharpstown, Harwin, etc... Not going to these places makes Houston a more beautiful city to live in.

[samagon]

I have lived in downtown since around 2002-2003 and a simple "No" or a shake of the head usually suffices for being an answer to panhandlers or just plain ignore them and continue walking.  I really dont think that I have ever had one continue on after I do any of these.  Sure they may curse me out or call me a liar, but I am also still going to where I was going in the first place.  If you really are intent on getting by without geting "bummed" or asked to help someone out with bus fare, food, drink, etc., it's not hard to, especially if you are used to living in a real urban environment.

 

And yes, I walk everywhere (gave up my car back in 2000); no there are no "real" grocery stores in downtown proper; the tunnels were made for commuting from one end of dt to the other in the summer without getting heat stroke, and dt should not have two movie theaters without the proper number of residents living in downtown to be able to sustain both.

 

ha! /thread :-p

 

perhaps, for 102IAHexpress there's a way out of this without having to avoid walking where bums might tread, and simultaneously not pissing off the fiancee.

 

work with your fiancee to create a script to use, obviously she isn't satisfied with no, and you're not satisfied with wasting away while she tries to play intervention.

 

perhaps something along the lines of "I'm sorry we cannot offer you any money/beer/bus fare, but can we provide some intervention? I'm not on the clock right now, but I work in at the jail, and we'd love to help you out!" I think you'd quickly find the ones that want help, versus the ones that just want their next bottle of courvoisier. I bet most would walk away briskly.

 

but you can, and should, work something out that you can both agree upon, living downtown it is unavoidable to interact with bums, and it might end up straining your relationship if you don't work something out where you are both satisfied and not held back by trying to avoid things.

[RedScare]

Man, this thread got really good really fast. None of that boring HP stuff! This is info we can use! How to avoid bums in downtown.  

[kylejack]

Man, this thread got really good really fast. None of that boring HP stuff! This is info we can use! How to avoid bums in downtown.  

 

Only one person is giving that advice. But anyway, there's no news on HP, so the thread is adrift.

[102IAHexpress]

Who said my fiance wants to help the bums outside of work? Did i say that? She could lose her licence for that. The whole point is that we don't want to help the bums outside the proper channels. We just want to go on our merry way.  She doesn't want to talk to them anymore than i do.

 

Anyways.

 

HP has filed for banruptcy, the bookstore is gone, Yao's is gone or is leaving? And only rumors of new tenants but nothing confirmed. This thread died a long time ago.

[kylejack]

HP has filed for banruptcy, the bookstore is gone, Yao's is gone or is leaving? And only rumors of new tenants but nothing confirmed. This thread died a long time ago.

 

Yao's has been gone for a while. HP has been transferred to Magic Johnson's group. Not just rumors, new tenants include Comcast SportsNet TV studio and Scott Gertner's Skybar.

Edited February 26, 2013 by kylejack

[htownproud]

anyone with any sense would walk to a closer theater that is as good or better than the alternative, regardless of the bum situation.  when i lived in chicago and new york, i went to the closest grocery store.  i didn't go to the one farther out of the way through the ghetto (especially if I had a female with me).  this is a pretty unremarkable concept.  i'm not sure why people are giving 102IAH a hard time about using common sense.  (although it is fairly comical that most of them don't live downtown.)

[infinite_jim]

The exterior build-out (or rather build-up) for Skybar is almost done. 

 

Some bums are pretty cool (like the schitzophrenic black guy who lives at the base of the old days inn), some not (like the drunk asian guy who lives in the central bank bldg parking garage).

 

I commute 20 city blocks roundtrip, everyday and I still feel kinda out of shape.

/2 cents

Edited February 26, 2013 by infinite_jim

[kylejack]

anyone with any sense would walk to a closer theater that is as good or better than the alternative, regardless of the bum situation.  when i lived in chicago and new york, i went to the closest grocery store.  i didn't go to the one farther out of the way through the ghetto (especially if I had a female with me).  this is a pretty unremarkable concept.  i'm not sure why people are giving 102IAH a hard time about using common sense.  (although it is fairly comical that most of them don't live downtown.)

 

I live downtown, arroddii does, and samagon lives pretty close if I recall correctly.

[102IAHexpress]

Good news on Skybar. I hadn't realized it was that far along. I've known about Comcast Sportsnet Studios, but is the TV studios a net positive for HP? Isn't that just less available square feet for ground level retail? Or is this an indication of what's really to come? more comercial space leased at the expense of retail at HP?

[kylejack]

Good news on Skybar. I hadn't realized it was that far along. I've known about Comcast Sportsnet Studios, but is the TV studios a net positive for HP? Isn't that just less available square feet for ground level retail? Or is this an indication of what's really to come? more comercial space leased at the expense of retail at HP?

 

"Available square feet for ground level retail" is another way of saying unleased space. So yeah, I would say the studio and NRG are a net positive for a development that was mostly unleased and struggling.

[102IAHexpress]

Since it's fun to play arm chair real estate developer, what is your theory as to why HP has not reached its full retail potential?

[kylejack]

I think the internal outdoor mall thing was a mistake, and it should have faced outward with more than typical sidewalk space to be used for restaurant patios and etc. It feels unnatural to go through it on the ground level, because walking straight through is jaywalking.

Edited February 26, 2013 by kylejack

[Pleak]

anyone with any sense would walk to a closer theater that is as good or better than the alternative, regardless of the bum situation.  when i lived in chicago and new york, i went to the closest grocery store.  i didn't go to the one farther out of the way through the ghetto (especially if I had a female with me).  this is a pretty unremarkable concept.  i'm not sure why people are giving 102IAH a hard time about using common sense.  (although it is fairly comical that most of them don't live downtown.)

 

Why is it comical that most don't live downtown?   The vast majority of downtown's population is work-related.  So what.   We know how to walk past a bum without crying about it.  Been doing it for years.     Job I have now is in Galleria.  Guess what?   There's bums here too.

 

And downtown Houston is definately not the ghetto.   Especially not now.  It's most sketchy areas pale to what it was 15-20 years ago.      Back when the Rice Lofts was a nice covered area for all the bums to piss.   That's the time/place you might be wise not to take your other on a midnight stroll.

[Pleak]

I ogle my fair share (perhaps more than my fair share) of good looking women, but I blame them for looking good, and they hopefully don't take it as harassment.

 

 

Way to blame the victim.  

[102IAHexpress]

anyone with any sense would walk to a closer theater that is as good or better than the alternative, regardless of the bum situation.  when i lived in chicago and new york, i went to the closest grocery store.  i didn't go to the one farther out of the way through the ghetto (especially if I had a female with me).  this is a pretty unremarkable concept.  i'm not sure why people are giving 102IAH a hard time about using common sense.  (although it is fairly comical that most of them don't live downtown.)

 

It's also comical that i have been to HP more times in the last month than most of the posters have gone in the last year. Talk about some whining babys.

[samagon]

Who said my fiance wants to help the bums outside of work? Did i say that? She could lose her licence for that. The whole point is that we don't want to help the bums outside the proper channels. We just want to go on our merry way.  She doesn't want to talk to them anymore than i do.

 

I sit corrected, and apologize. 

 

I just find it to be not that big of a deal to say no, or ignore them, and I guess I have a hard time grasping at why others would, that doesn't mean your opinion is worth less than mine, just that I don't understand it.

 

I live downtown, arroddii does, and samagon lives pretty close if I recall correctly.

 

I'm about 3 miles east, but I spend most evenings riding my bicycle through downtown after everyone leaves work.

 

It's also comical that i have been to HP more times in the last month than most of the posters have gone in the last year. Talk about some whining babys.

 

 

whining babies? you're the one that's afraid of bums 

[kylejack]

It's also comical that i have been to HP more times in the last month than most of the posters have gone in the last year. Talk about some whining babys.

You said there were no new tenants. You weren't sure if Yao had left yet. Hmm.

[htownproud]

you are correct that most of downtown is not a ghetto, but i hope you get my point (and what I think was 102IAH's point, although I don't want to put words in his mouth).  why would you walk farther, while be accosted more, just to go to worse theater.  it makes no sense. 

 

and for what it's worth, dealing with bums during the business day on crowded streets is not quite the same as walking your date home at midnight on near vacant downtown streets. . . .

 

 

[Pleak]

you are correct that most of downtown is not a ghetto, but i hope you get my point (and what I think was 102IAH's point, although I don't want to put words in his mouth).  why would you walk farther, while be accosted more, just to go to worse theater.  it makes no sense. 

 

 

Understand your point - although who knows if this second unbuilt theater is actually worse?  That would be kind of hard to determine since no one actually appears to know where exactly it's going, etc, - so in a completely different way - it makes no sense

 

 

and for what it's worth, dealing with bums during the business day on crowded streets is not quite the same as walking your date home at midnight on near vacant downtown streets. . . .

 

Agreed.  But my "dealings" with bums comes from working many busy seasons downtown which last about 3-4 months and would require me to stay past when the last Park n Ride buses left.  Which if I recall is 9 pm.   So being the cheapskate that I am,  I would park in the boondocks to get the $2 parking lots (told you this was a while back - I think all of these are condos now) and hoof it in.  It was at least our good ol reliable measure of 6 blocks = 1/2 mile past of plenty of bums.    In the dark.....   Ooooh,  scary......   

 

Not really.    You leave them alone - they leave you alone.    Bums are one of HAIF's biggest red herrings.  

[infinite_jim]

I hope people so critical of bums aka "strangers" would find themselves without sanity, money, food, or a place to sleep.

[ClutchCity]

I hope people so critical of bums aka "strangers" would find themselves without sanity, money, food, or a place to sleep.

 

I had a hobo one time let me know I was in a tow-away zone downtown and showed me where I could park (It was one of my first times driving downtown). They aren't all bad. I understand some are mentally unstable, but others just seem very unlucky.

[LarryDierker]

When I sense a bum approaching, i ask them for change.

[scarface]

When I sense a bum approaching, i ask them for change.

 

I've done that too. LOL

[infinite_jim]

I hope people so critical of bums aka "strangers" would find themselves without sanity, money, food, or a place to sleep.

 

Whew! I was in a bad mood! 

 

Article about panhandling and related court decisions.

 

Because the restrictions on soliciting never seem to apply to teen-agers in bikini tops waving car-wash signs. Or to campaign canvassers seeking petition signatures to get political candidates on the ballot. Or to firemen passing the boot for a local charity. Somehow it’s only the homeless who aren’t supposed to pester anybody.