GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[VelvetJ]

I'm beginning to get this style/substance divide on HAIF.....

Well my frustration with the style/substance divide on HAIF is the tone that they both cannot coexist in Houston. It seems it has to be either one or the other. Why can't a office tower in Houston be full of tenants and have an illuminated fin at the same time? I believe it is indeed possible for a city to LOOK exciting as well as BE exciting. It does not have to be a situation of it being either one or the other.

I also agree with Dallasboi in that HP can help set the foundation for that vibrant downtown we desire, despite all of the vibrancy some residents already have inside of them. Will HP suddenly thrust Houston into the stratosphere of cities like Tokyo, Paris, or New York City, of course not but it can lay the groundwork for Houston becoming a better city by becoming a more dynamic city through a choice of diverse offerings. Personally, I love the clean manicured look of Post Oak in Uptown with the Space Age Arches and suspended street signs. But you know what, I love the Montrose with it's organic chaos and funkiness, just as well.

Also, memebag why can't Houston be a place where a automobile is still in the budget for most but can still offer up pockets of high density pedestrian friendly enviroments connected by rail as well if some of it's citizens desired? Besides, how much longer will the automobile be in the budget of Houstonians? Tolls are continuing to be raised on top of more than our share of new tollroads are being planned and rolled out. Plus I predicted $5.00 a gallon gas on this website a couple of years ago, and as of today it looks like we are well on our way.

[memebag]

When was the last time you were bit by a mosquito? It's been quite a while since I have.

My last mosquito bite was about 3 weeks ago. Are you constantly covered with petrochemical by-products?

To take pride in Houstonians wallowing in their own filth seems peculiar.

Who's wallowing in their own filth? The people who walk about and breathe all that benzene?

[memebag]

Also, memebag why can't Houston be a place where a automobile is still in the budget for most but can still offer up pockets of high density pedestrian friendly enviroments connected by rail as well if some of it's citizens desired?

It sounds nice, I just don't think it will work. Without natural barriers to confine sprawl and cheap private transportation, there aren't enough incentives to maintain high density.

Besides, how much longer will the automobile be in the budget of Houstonians? Tolls are continuing to be raised on top of more than our share of new tollroads are being planned and rolled out. Plus I predicted $5.00 a gallon gas on this website a couple of years ago, and as of today it looks like we are well on our way.

I don't know. I think Houston attracts people who don't want high density residences and good public transportation, people who enjoy a yard with a fence and sitting alone in their car for a couple of hours each day with the AC at full blast. My gut tells me the love of the private automobile is so deep we'll always figure out a way to keep them.

If I really wanted to live in a pedestrian friendly city, I know of several good ones I could move to.

[Jax]

Refreshing honesty, I suppose. There's something disgusting about a city built in a mosquito infested swamp for the purpose of refining and distributing petroleum products trying to present itself as a green oasis of foot friendliness.

I'm sorry but [EDIT] I have to disagree [/EDIT] .

I disagree that just because the city is a business city as opposed to a tourist city that it's disgusting for it to have a pleasant pedestrian environment. There are plenty of people who would love to move to another more pedestrian friendly city, but end up here for one reason or another. People don't just move to another city because they would like to walk more - they move because of jobs. You may not see it, but there is a demand for better public transportation and a higher density environment (look at Post Midtown Square).

I don't know a single person who enjoys long commutes. I also don't know anybody who would prefer the city center to be dull, lifeless, and hostile. Everybody I've met since I moved here, whether longtime residents or visiting students, wishes downtown was more vibrant, not less.

Why does the fact that the city's main industry is petroleum make having a pleasant downtown "disgusting" to you? Do you seriously think other residents of Houston are disgusted by the idea of having a pleasant downtown?

Edited November 9, 2007 by Jax

[memebag]

I'm sorry but that's the stupidest comment I've heard in a long time.

Then let's not talk.

[Gary]

I love my 3000 sq foot home, my 60'X60' backyard that backs into the bayou, and my big F250 diesel. If being "urban" requires that I densify my living space, I say screw it.

Oh by the way... I recycle plastic and am looking into diesel bio-fuels. Does that help make me less of a environmental thug?

[Jax]

I don't really think this discussion is about eco-thugs, big houses, or big cars. It's about downtown.

I don't think anybody is seriously talking about densifying already existing residential neighborhoods. This discussion is more about getting rid of the empty space downtown and turning it into a more pleasant environment (ie: Houston Pavilions).

[C2H]

That sounds like C2H is more interested in how Houston looks to outsiders than how Houston functions. It also raises the question of what makes a city an "urban city".

Well, yes and no. True, I have a lot of respect for Houston and I do want it to get more recognition for the great city that it is. But i think you're wrong about Houston functioning one way. Houston is a plethora of many different cultures, people, and ways of living. You can't put a stamp on Houston and brand it as strictly business professional when other parts of the city don't function that way. I hear people saying that the thugs come in and chase people away from downtown. Or downtown should just be for adults and no children.

Downtown has been doing all these rennovations to help it become more urban, to help establish a sense of place. Houston isn't just one way and if downtown is to become more urban, it has to accept all kinds of people, race, agegroups, skinny, fat, short, and tall.

[memebag]

Downtown has been doing all these rennovations to help it become more urban, to help establish a sense of place. Houston isn't just one way and if downtown is to become more urban, it has to accept all kinds of people, race, agegroups, skinny, fat, short, and tall.

But what do you mean by "more urban"? What scale are you using?

Edited November 9, 2007 by memebag

[VelvetJ]

It sounds nice, I just don't think it will work. Without natural barriers to confine sprawl and cheap private transportation, there aren't enough incentives to maintain high density.

I don't know. I think Houston attracts people who don't want high density residences and good public transportation, people who enjoy a yard with a fence and sitting alone in their car for a couple of hours each day with the AC at full blast. My gut tells me the love of the private automobile is so deep we'll always figure out a way to keep them.

If I really wanted to live in a pedestrian friendly city, I know of several good ones I could move to.

OMG, I hate to even say this for a number of reasons, but I think Atlanta is doing a better job at creating a environment for itself to maintain higher density and some would argue they don't have natural barriers to confine their sprawl either. I know the city overall is a sprawling monster and sprawls even moreso than Houston if I am not mistaken. But from what I see, they are really putting effort into making high density lifestyles work. I know Houston is a different animal, which is why I think strong pockets of it here would be more effective.

I understand what you mean when you say Houston attracts people who don't want high density, in fact I am one of them to a degree. Believe it or not, I have no problem with Houston's density overall. My thing is, high density should be available in this huge metropolis that we call Houston........for those of us who would like that type of lifestyle. Houston is diverse enough now for me to believe there are those who want it. Look at the Post Development in Midtown.

Though I enjoy and prefer my lifestyle at the moment, I lived in St. Louis in another life in a "urban" environment and there were aspects of that lifestyle that I really enjoyed and wouldn't mind having that option again maybe later in life, but in Houston. And with all due respect memebag, whenever this subject comes up, the first thing some suggest is moving. "Houston should have a rail option".....move! "Houston should have more entertainment options for families".......move! "A metro area of this size should have a theme park".....move! "Billboards on the North Freeway make it look tacky".......move! It really does nothing and is a distraction from the subject, so stop it or move!

Some may interpret what I'm saying as I want Houston to be Manhattan and that is far from the truth. Houston will never be Manhattan and most of us don't want that anyway. However, again my ideal is to have pockets of areas that can offer a similar style of living if it is desired.

People in Houston will always have private transportation. The same is true for most other cities. And I'm not against that. But hypothetically speaking, if I could take a bullet train from the Galleria to Intercontinental in 10 minutes.....guess what. I would leave my car at home and do it. The only reason I don't do it now is NOT because I love my car so much, but because I don't have that option.

Oh by the way, I think the HP is going to be nice.

[Jax]

I understand what you mean when you say Houston attracts people who don't want high density, in fact I am one of them to a degree. Believe it or not, I have no problem with Houston's density overall. My thing is, high density should be available in this huge metropolis that we call Houston

I agree. People don't say "wow, a 2 hour commute, I want to live THERE", or "wow, an empty downtown, I like this place". It's more likely that somebody gets a good job offer and ends up moving to Houston and then tries to find the best place to live that they can.

I know some people like having big yards, and space between their house and their neighbor. But that isn't really unique to Houston, nor should it be the only lifestyle in Houston. Toronto and Montreal for example both have dense downtown cores, but also suburbs that are styled very similar to many outlying neighborhoods in Houston. If Toronto and Montreal had boundaries as large as Houston, the suburbs wouldn't be called suburbs, just "neighborhoods outside the beltway", or something.

So I don't think this has anything to do with changing the style of the neighborhoods outside of downtown. I really think it is about making downtown more pleasant, more livable, more "urban" (if that's what you want to call it), and more similar to the successful downtowns of other cities. I'm not saying we should copy other cities, I'm only saying that there is such thing as a successful downtown, and there is no reason why Houston shouldn't have one.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Jax

[C2H]

But what do you mean by "more urban"? What scale are you using?

Definitely not new york or Chicago. But lets face it, Currently downtown Houston is DEAD, lifeless, and empty. Its only LIVE during lunch time and business hours. I'd be happy to see downtown Houston even become somewhat like downtown Denver in terms of pedestrian activity. There may not be overcrowded people on the streets NYC style but there is enough action on 16th Street mall to go hang out and draw people there. You do see quite a bit of people walking around. So if Houston could one day match the level of downtown Denver, i'd be pretty satisfied. I just hate to see the downtown of the 4th largest city in America lack so much life.

Sorry if i offended anyone but memebag did ask the question.

[memebag]

Some may interpret what I'm saying as I want Houston to be Manhattan and that is far from the truth. Houston will never be Manhattan and most of us don't want that anyway. However, again my ideal is to have pockets of areas that can offer a similar style of living if it is desired.

I just don't think "pockets" of density can survive without some pressure to maintain them. Houston's suburbs will continue to drain people as they age, build families, and get tired of drunken suburbanites pissing on their sidewalks. I speak from experience on that (I followed the Gay Trail from Montrose to the Heights to Westbury).

I with the Pavilions luck, but I don't think they will be able to change the nature of Houston and its citizens. I don't think the desire to live in a densely populated area or nice stores or pretty architecture are enough to really increase population density in the long run.

[musicman]

I'm sorry but [EDIT] I have to disagree [/EDIT] .

I disagree that just because the city is a business city as opposed to a tourist city that it's disgusting for it to have a pleasant pedestrian environment. There are plenty of people who would love to move to another more pedestrian friendly city, but end up here for one reason or another. People don't just move to another city because they would like to walk more - they move because of jobs. You may not see it, but there is a demand for better public transportation and a higher density environment (look at Post Midtown Square).

if the demand for higher density projects is there, they will be built. go down to a planning meeting and see what kind of projects are discussed, i think you'll be surprised that most aren't high density enough for your standard.

I don't know a single person who enjoys long commutes. I also don't know anybody who would prefer the city center to be dull, lifeless, and hostile. Everybody I've met since I moved here, whether longtime residents or visiting students, wishes downtown was more vibrant, not less.

Why does the fact that the city's main industry is petroleum make having a pleasant downtown "disgusting" to you? Do you seriously think other residents of Houston are disgusted by the idea of having a pleasant downtown?

i know people who enjoy their long commutes. some people at work have a hard time understanding why i live "in town" and drive to clr lake everyday. my drive is on average 30 mins which is fine to me but many think that is ridiculous. they live 2 mins from work. i personally couldn't stand that. my boss drives from cypress to clr lake and has no problem. for me, the traffic is clear lake is horrible and the traffic in town (where i go) isn't ridiculous. i had a 415 appointment in the med center today. took me 15 mins to get from my house to the parking garage. not a problem.

you mentioned how longtime residents wish downtown was more vibrant. i think you'll find that most don't care either way. people on HAIF, do care to at least comment. but jax you and i and the rest of HAIF are definitely in the minority.

[memebag]

Definitely not new york or Chicago. But lets face it, Currently downtown Houston is DEAD, lifeless, and empty.

I disagree. Everytime I go downtown at night I'm shocked by the large number of people and open businesses compared to how it was in the 80s and 90s. Back then it might have seemed empty, but tt was actually occupied by skaters. That probably isn't the sort of "urban"-ness you're looking for, but it was a deeply urban experience for anyone who participated.

[RedScare]

But lets face it, Currently downtown Houston is DEAD, lifeless, and empty. Its only LIVE during lunch time and business hours.

I just hate to see the downtown of the 4th largest city in America lack so much life.

Sorry if i offended anyone but memebag did ask the question.

Pardon me for being horrendously blunt, but just how in the hell do you know? You do not live here. You do not see downtown during the day, at lunch, or at night. You are making sweeping statements with authority....authority you flat do not have. You are either flat out guessing, or you have taken the opinions of others as your own. But, since you do not know the context of their opinions, your opinion carries the weight of a guess.

Sorry if I offended YOU, but you frankly have no idea what you are talking about....even if you happened to guess correctly....which you have not.

[Jax]

I disagree. Everytime I go downtown at night I'm shocked by the large number of people and open businesses compared to how it was in the 80s and 90s. Back then it might have seemed empty, but tt was actually occupied by skaters. That probably isn't the sort of "urban"-ness you're looking for, but it was a deeply urban experience for anyone who participated.

I agree. At night on Friday, and Saturday the Market Square area and parts of Main are relatively crowded. Not so much other nights though.

Musicman: We obviously hang out with different crowds. I think the average 20-30 year olds that I talk to want downtown to succeed just as much as you and I.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

Musicman: We obviously hang out with different crowds.

that's an understatement. LOL

I think the average 20-30 year olds that I talk to want downtown to succeed just as much as you and I.

but unfortunately those are the fickle people that go to a club for a year and then move to the next one and the initial club ends up closing. that isn't success IMO.

[Jax]

Yeah but we're the future... and I like to think the people I hang out with aren't the fickle types. I guess I'm talking about more along the lines of graduate students / young professionals. People who are past the partying stage and moving towards the buying a house having a family stage without being quite at that point yet. I guess nobody's sample of people can be perfect though, and it's most likely impossible to answer our questions about the future direction of Houston. It's all just speculation.

[crunchtastic]

well this thread has gotten more interesting.

Someone define for me, please, the measure of a downtown district's 'success'. Seriously.

Residential and associated amenities? Percent office space leased? Balance sheets on all the major companies HQd here?

This thinking that everything has to be a fun zone in order to rate---come on. People in town on business will find a way to spend a couple of hundred bucks. I will still go to Warren's and remember when it was un-ironic to get a cheap drunk on. I will pay parking and associated pre- and post- entertainment costs for sporting events. I will even, grudgingly, give Tilman Fertitta my money because the steak house is pretty damn good.

Assuming I don't have any desire to live there, and I don't work there, exactly how is my downtown failing me?

[musicman]

Yeah but we're the future... and I like to think the people I hang out with aren't the fickle types. I guess I'm talking about more along the lines of graduate students / young professionals. People who are past the partying stage and moving towards the buying a house having a family stage without being quite at that point yet. I guess nobody's sample of people can be perfect though, and it's most likely impossible to answer our questions about the future direction of Houston. It's all just speculation.

ok i won't do any whitney houston quotes but i'm sure her prognosticator cousin dionne warwick would forecast that when your graduate students / young professionals. People who are past the partying stage actually settle down, they most likely won't be living Downtown.

[Jax]

No, they most likely won't be living in Downtown Houston as it is today. My point though is they want downtown to succeed. If it were like downtown Toronto, they might live downtown, or at least spend more time downtown.

[Jax]

Someone define for me, please, the measure of a downtown district's 'success'. Seriously.

The same way as you measure success anywhere else. The presence of people. Different types of amenities (shopping, restaurants, offices, apartments) as opposed to only offices, or only residential. People walking in the streets. Businesses that succeed. Look at downtown San Francisco. That is what I call success. It doesn't have to be on that scale though to be successful, that's just an extreme example. Somebody above mentioned that he considers downtown Denver a success even though its nothing like San Francisco. That means there are successful businesses downtown that draw people there at different times of the day. That's all it takes.

I would consider the Galleria a successful area, it has all of the above minus people walling in the streets. Whether I go there or not, it's a successful area because people chose to go there.

I guess one measure of success would be a lack of abandoned buildings. When downtown has no more abandoned buildings, that will be a move in the right direction.

I find it ironic that people use downtown as a symbol of Houston. The skyline is on the news, on postcards, on logos of businesses. And yet Downtown is so underutilized. I think that it would be great if our iconic skyline was something more than pretty scenery on a drive along the 45.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Jax

[ricco67]

well this thread has gotten more interesting.

Assuming I don't have any desire to live there, and I don't work there, exactly how is my downtown failing me?

Your downtown isn't failing you, but helping you, but depending on what industry you're in, it's helping you stay employed. The more amenities that are in downtown, the more people that stay at the various hotels stay in downtown. HP will be a hub of sorts. Unlike Bayou place, HP is in the middle and next to several major hotels. While it's a pity that the residential element, the business tower will help a bit more business stay there.

ok i won't do any whitney houston quotes but i'm sure her prognosticator cousin dionne warwick would forecast that when your graduate students / young professionals. People who are past the partying stage actually settle down, they most likely won't be living Downtown.

So you think once the current crop of kids grow up they will stop going and won't be replaced by new ones? I didn't know we had a shortage of kids.

Seriously, though, kids are replaced by the younger generation as soon as the others grows up. It's the various tastes of those kids that determine whether or not a place stays open. If that closes, another one will pop right up in its place.

My concern is that with the various ADDITIONAL clubs are popping up that we get enough people coming to Houston which will require additional visitors (conventions), college kids (which UH is currently working on expanding on), and businesses to move within downtown to keep these businesses running.

That makes Mainspace, the office componant to HP, Houston Center 6, The New Omni, The (potential) new Embassy suites are absolutely critical. They bring in more people not only to downtown, but to Midtown.

Native Houstonians live in the city, but it's the visitors that explore and recommend or pan a city.

[shasta]

Wow, I never expected this topic to take this turn but it is interesting to see where people stand. No one is calling for Houston to become so urban that it forces someone in Katy to sell their Hummer and move into high density housing instead of their mcmansion. I'm saying Houston should be a city for everyone. If you prefer to be left alone in the suburbs and decide to commute then that should be an option. If you prefer to live in a self-sufficient urban part of the city then that should be an option as well. Houston should be a city for all.

I'm not saying Houston was ever super urban but almost everyone forgets what Houston looked like pre World War I and II. Let me paint a picture of what Houston used to be like. The heart of the city was no doubt downtown. Many residents lived downtown and even had the opportunity to walk to Union Station to catch a train to spend an afternoon at the beach in Galveston. A few of the Victorian style houses from downtown have been preserved but many also lived in apartment homes and other buildings in the cbd. Street car lines were abundant all along downtown and the charming "street car suburbs" of Montrose and the Heights would allow downtown workers to live in these suburbs and commute to work. In fact, Rice and the MFA were built so far out of the city that many citizens complained that it was not on the street car line. Downtown Houston had many detail oriented building from the turn of the century. Do a little research to see all of the buildings that were demolished but that we would love to have back today. We even had a "Little Germany" section of downtown and the building of the main German meeting hall today is Cabo's. Capital Square and then Market Square was an integral part of downtown and all citizens would flood downtown to catch the latest movie or play or to attend the famous city festival- the 'Notsuoh' carnival and parade that would march down to the bayou. Everyone had to be downtown to see the opening of the new Macy's on Main back then. These are just some examples.

So what makes a city a city- I'd say Culture, History, Memories, and Pride- it's NOT JUST A COLLECTION OF BUILDINGS. This is evident by the city's heart which would be it's center and in most cases where the birth of the city begins. This should be worth saving no matter where you live in the metro. Houston had a good start but chose to destroy and erase all of these elements instead of preserving them. let's compare Houston to Chicago. I'm not saying Chicago is perfect but Houston is actually an older city than Chicago and it was started as a nation's capital city. So what happened?

Simply put- Chicago MADE THE CHOICE to preserve and beautify it's city, culture, and charm and Houston MADE THE CHOICE to destroy its city, culture, and charm.

Many of the detail oriented buildings of the turn of the century were torn down and the residential population was almost forced to decline. The once mighty Market Square is now flanked by surface parking lots where by contrast Chicago was building pocket parks. The street car line that had been a part of this city in some capacity from 1870-1920 and the commuter rail to galveston was replaced with the new concept of 'freeways'. The German district and the Frost Town districts were all but erased from our memories as if they never existed. Even the charm of the street car suburbs of Montrose and the Heights took a hit to some degree. Inhumane office buildings from the 70's and 80's dazzled at the skyline level but sucked the life of the city at the pedestrian street level. The city even turned its back on our Buffalo bayou the blood line of the city and the single most reason for the location of downtown. They honored this historic water way where early cotton bails would be loaded onto ships by hiding the bayou and building a freeway over it.

Would anyone here take pride in bring visitors downtown to show off our historic urban features-downtown residential population, our 100 year plus old German district, our turn of the century and early 20th century architecture or our charming Bayou Garden District along the bayou instead of a freeway? These were all early ingredients and this is what Houston could have been today if it didn't sell out.

All I'm saying is that some damage has been done but Houston controls it's own destiny from this point on and can become a new type of city if it wants to. It's not about following existing models but by following a unique Houston model. Please never forget that Houston was the 'Magnolia City' for 120 years before it ever was the sprawling metro of the 'Space City'.

Edited November 10, 2007 by shasta

[RedScare]

Shasta,

You have WAY oversimplified your analogy, and you have ignored some monstrous facts. While Chicago was founded as the Town of Chicago in 1833, it was incorporated in 1837. This contrasts with Houston's founding in 1836. This is where the similarities end. By 1900, Chicago had 1.7 million residents in a city without automobiles. By comparison, in 1900, Houston had 44,000 residents. Because there were no automobiles, homes and businesses were crammed together to shorten the walk or bicycle ride. It was not done out of altruism or some desire for an "urban aesthetic".

As for tearing down buildings versus preserving them, I can guarantee Chicago has torn down more century old buildings than Houston ever dreamed of. How do I know? Because Chicago's population at the time was nearly 40 TIMES the size of Houston's. They flat had more buildings to tear down. Just how many buildings of any kind do you think existed in Houston in 1900? At that time, over half of "downtown" was RESIDENTIAL. Sure, many of our original downtown buildings have been destroyed. But far more of Chicago's have.

Something else you have ignored is the construction of these buildings. For numerous reasons, much of Houston's original buildings were built of wood. They were fire traps, and eventually would rot in this climate. So were many of Chicago's buildings. However, with the crushing population growth, the wood buildings were destroyed and rebuilt with masonry and steel long before you or I were around to see them.

Chicago deserves no more or less praise than Houston. It is simply different. It grew 60 to 80 years before Houston did, and it grew in the organic ways that cities grew at that time. By contrast, Houston grew organically in the ways that Sunbelt cities grew after World War II. It is disingenuous to suggest that Houstonians are bad for the way Houston grew, just as it is inaccurate to suggest Chicagoans were enlightened for the way their city grew.

Edited November 10, 2007 by RedScare

[Gary]

I don't really think this discussion is about eco-thugs, big houses, or big cars. It's about downtown.

I don't think anybody is seriously talking about densifying already existing residential neighborhoods. This discussion is more about getting rid of the empty space downtown and turning it into a more pleasant environment (ie: Houston Pavilions).

True, but I was responding to a few who seem to be frowning on people who actually enjoy Houstons lay out. I happen to be one of the few on this forum who enjoys the way Houston is. Could we improve? Sure, but I don't thnk it's following the current trend of super high density housing.

Edit: What Red said.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Gary

[shasta]

RedScare, why must people here argue everything? The primary point wasn't to compare Chicago vs. Houston it was to point out that Chicago is often thought by a whole bunch of more people to have more elements of an urban landscape and to be a more successful model of a city than Houston. Chicago wasn't perfect either- no city is perfect. They probably have torn down more buildings than Houston but as you said the scale is way bigger there and would you honestly say that modern downtown Chicago is dotted today by so many surface parking lots and a lack of connectivity?

Yes, Chicago was fueled early on by eastern money which lead to an accelerated population growth but Houston, before the car, also operated as a somewhat dense unit in Houston terms. I f you want to ignore the city beautification movement that originated in Chicago or even the birth of the modern highrise or the fact that Chicago has zoning controlling growth in its cbd, or the fact that Chicago augmented their public transportation system instead of tearing it out then fine but the point is to express that Houston had some elements of an urban downtown. I dare you to find one person who honestly believes Houston did a better job of preserving its city core than did Chicago because it seems as if Houston has many problems it is trying to correct.

[musicman]

So you think once the current crop of kids grow up they will stop going and won't be replaced by new ones? I didn't know we had a shortage of kids.

Seriously, though, kids are replaced by the younger generation as soon as the others grows up. It's the various tastes of those kids that determine whether or not a place stays open. If that closes, another one will pop right up in its place.

nope never said that. if you feel that a business that closes in a yr or two after opening is good for long term success of an area, i'd say think again. it is the long term type businesses that we should be shooting for, not party central type places that don't stay open long.

My concern is that with the various ADDITIONAL clubs are popping up that we get enough people coming to Houston which will require additional visitors....... to keep these businesses running.

any place that is good will succeed as it does now. except for hotels, it is the locals that keep most places afloat and it is the locals that can make them sink.

Native Houstonians live in the city, but it's the visitors that explore and recommend or pan a city.

LOL. I don't think i've ever asked for a recommendation about my hometown from a visitor.

[RedScare]

RedScare, why must people here argue everything?

Is it arguing to point out an incorrect statement? Nowhere do I state, or even imply that Houston has not destroyed many of its early buildings or do a "better job" of preservation than any city, including Chicago. I merely pointed out that your use of Chicago for camparison is dreadfully flawed. If pointing out the flaws in your lecture on urbanity is considered arguing, I plead Guilty.

By the way, the City Beautiful movement had nothing to do with historic preservation, but I won't point that out for fear of being argumentative.