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GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.


MontroseNeighborhoodCafe

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"People look for brands," Councilwoman Sue Lovell said. "They're not going to read the brochures you put out at the hotel. They're going to walk outside and see a brand and go to it."

Why did they make so many of the walls facing the street windowless then? HP is gonna be so hot IMO that signs won't be needed. Convention goers will get there and everyone will be talking about DG or HP. It won't be a secret, IMO.

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Why did they make so many of the walls facing the street windowless then?

Exactly. That's the way shopping malls are built, and this has turned out to be nothing more than a shopping mall. Rather than think through the design, it's easier and cheaper for a developer to get our beholden city council to change the rules.

How's that tenant list coming, I wonder. Oooh, maybe a Sunglass Hut has been added. <_<

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for HP and will be most likely be a frequent visitor to the the bowling lanes and HoB. But they should'a thought about 'branding' beforehand.

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Exactly. That's the way shopping malls are built, and this has turned out to be nothing more than a shopping mall. Rather than think through the design, it's easier and cheaper for a developer to get our beholden city council to change the rules.

How's that tenant list coming, I wonder. Oooh, maybe a Sunglass Hut has been added. <_<

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for HP and will be most likely be a frequent visitor to the the bowling lanes and HoB. But they should'a thought about 'branding' beforehand.

very true. johnny dang anyone?

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Exactly. That's the way shopping malls are built, and this has turned out to be nothing more than a shopping mall. Rather than think through the design, it's easier and cheaper for a developer to get our beholden city council to change the rules.

How's that tenant list coming, I wonder. Oooh, maybe a Sunglass Hut has been added. <_<

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for HP and will be most likely be a frequent visitor to the the bowling lanes and HoB. But they should'a thought about 'branding' beforehand.

Bingo.

Plus, this group already duped Houstonians once. The original project which received all kind of tax breaks and incentives was SO MUCH LARGER than what it became; a windowless mall. Not hotel, no condos, no apartments, no H&M, no Barnes and Noble, etc.. = NO DAMN LIGHTS.

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You guys are funny (with your pessimistic selves).

It's not pessimistic, Trae. It's about accountability, and being tired of the city making bad business decisions and giving it up to developers who don't deliver. And this is how it happens--with our tax dollars. Being a hospitable business climate shouldn't mean rolling over with the incentives and then re-writing city code to provide for lights and signs so a developer can brand his poorly conceived business plan after the fact.

Grrrrrrr : HP. I want it to succeed, but WTF? Can't even get a proper bookstore in that place.

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It's not pessimistic, Trae. It's about accountability, and being tired of the city making bad business decisions and giving it up to developers who don't deliver. And this is how it happens--with our tax dollars. Being a hospitable business climate shouldn't mean rolling over with the incentives and then re-writing city code to provide for lights and signs so a developer can brand his poorly conceived business plan after the fact.

Grrrrrrr : HP. I want it to succeed, but WTF? Can't even get a proper bookstore in that place.

I second your opinion. The city (what a bunch of feckless morons in our city government) was indeed duped; and, now, HP is proceeding in a direction that won't differentiate it that much from, say, The Woodlands Mall. This could have been soooo much better. We'll see... That previous post regarding whether HP's future will be similar to Bayou Place's is becoming more germane every day.

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It's not pessimistic, Trae. It's about accountability, and being tired of the city making bad business decisions and giving it up to developers who don't deliver. And this is how it happens--with our tax dollars. Being a hospitable business climate shouldn't mean rolling over with the incentives and then re-writing city code to provide for lights and signs so a developer can brand his poorly conceived business plan after the fact.

Grrrrrrr : HP. I want it to succeed, but WTF? Can't even get a proper bookstore in that place.

Very true. This is essentially a city-funded project, to go with the city-funded convention center, the city-funded convention hotel, the city-funded basketball arena, the city-funded Main Street Square, and the city-funded Discovery Green. If downtown ever becomes a great place, it will be thanks to no one except the city. Private developers just don't seem to have the b***s.

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I agree with Trae. Some of you guys are just finding reason to whine and complain. True the residential portion would've been nice but after One Park Place is built out and surrounding residential developments follow, it may turn out that downtown wasn't in dire need of the measley 150-200 residential units that were supposed to go above the Pavilions.

No matter how you look at it, this thing can only help downtown from its current status today. And the location of this H/P right off the rail line tells me this won't be a carbon copy of Bayou Place. A bird in the hand is better than two in the Bush

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I also agree with Trae. This has nothing to do with accountability or responsibility. You're not striving to make change by writing to city council or to the developers of HP. You're just complaining about your own idealized version of what the pavilions could have been. Demanding accountability and going on to a forum to whine about perceived problems with the project are two different things entirely. I'm not saying that we don't have a right to point out project flaws, but I think some of you guys are taking this a bit far.

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I agree with Trae. Some of you guys are just finding reason to whine and complain. True the residential portion would've been nice but after One Park Place is built out and surrounding residential developments follow, it may turn out that downtown wasn't in dire need of the measley 150-200 residential units that were supposed to go above the Pavilions.

No matter how you look at it, this thing can only help downtown from its current status today. And the location of this H/P right off the rail line tells me this won't be a carbon copy of Bayou Place. A bird in the hand is better than two in the Bush

I agree.

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I also agree with Trae. This has nothing to do with accountability or responsibility.

Really? Giving away tax incentives -- and not getting the promised result-- doesn't have anything to do with accountability? When yet another project ends up being a mere shadow of its original plan --and doesn't provide the revenue the city anticipated in return for the all goodies--that's not about municipal accountability? Entertaining even more concessions to the developer, at the council level, for a project that hasn't yet delivered a single dime of sales tax revenue--that's not about accountability?

You must not have lived here long, have a bad memory, or don't pay taxes.

And how do you assume to know what I have or haven't said to a councilmember or the mayor's office regarding city-funded projects?

Edited by crunchtastic
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Really? Giving away tax incentives -- and not getting the promised result-- doesn't have anything to do with accountability?

I'm not saying your arguments are wrong; I'm just saying that complaining about it here doesn't create accountability. You're not creating change - you're not holding anyone responsible. Whining about some problems in a forum for a few people to see doesn't make a difference. If you actually care about how badly the city is screwing up this development, then there are better ways of doing something about it. That's all I meant.

That being said, I think we can all agree HP will be a benefit to downtown, regardless of lost potential.

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To each his own. Although I would hardly call making a public argument against proposed changes to city ordinance -- in a forum dedicated to Houston building and development-- whining. I believe that public discourse and debate is one of the functions of this forum. And last time I checked, I wasn't posting in the Create Change in Houston Thread. I'm sure we could start one, though.

This response is nothing personal, by any means. In the meantime, I will continue to discuss timely news stories that deal with development issues, good and bad.

Edited by crunchtastic
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House of Blues... Lucky Strike Bowling Lanes... Pete's Piano Bar... Red Cat Jazz Cafe... lots of great restaurants... lots of retail which Downtown is majorly lacking... I for one am excited about HP. Yes, it could be better, but it's a lot better than 3 surface lots. And may guess is over time as Downtown becomes better and better more popular retail stores will open up in and around HP.

New Tenants Added...

Edited by HtownWxBoy
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Very true. This is essentially a city-funded project, to go with the city-funded convention center, the city-funded convention hotel, the city-funded basketball arena, the city-funded Main Street Square, and the city-funded Discovery Green. If downtown ever becomes a great place, it will be thanks to no one except the city. Private developers just don't seem to have the b***s.

Please. This thing has $200 million in private financing. Care to hazard a guess as to how much incentive the City threw in, to back up your "city-funded project" statement?

While some of the criticisms here may be valid, some are off the wall. As mentioned before, 150 apartments with perhaps 250 residents won't even keep a 7-11 in business, much less a multi-tenant entertainment and retail complex, such as HP. HP will be, and always has been, dependant on shoppers coming in from outside of downtown to survive and thrive. Not having a couple hundred pretentious yuppies living above my bowling alley will not ruin my bowling experience. We should probably get over our obsession with "mixed use", or at least understand what it is and how it is helpful or useful. If a retail market is located across the street or a block away from an apartment building, what goal of new urbanism has been thwarted? Aren't people still going to walk across the street to purchase their goods?

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I agree with the recent sentiments... HP is only good news for downtown. Yes, it would be cooler if there was a nice condo tower, and if the office tower was 24 stories instead of 12 stories. But hell, Houston is one of the few cities that has a construction boom continuing through the recent financial market disruption. City-wise, we're lucky (thanks to energy/oil).

The City "threw in" an "$8.8 million development grant from the City of Houston, and $5.5 million from Harris County" (Source). So about $14/170 million was funded by local government. I think with the additional tax receipts, and indirect future receipts by promoting new development, this will pay itself off in a few years.

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Very true. This is essentially a city-funded project, to go with the city-funded convention center, the city-funded convention hotel, the city-funded basketball arena, the city-funded Main Street Square, and the city-funded Discovery Green. If downtown ever becomes a great place, it will be thanks to no one except the city. Private developers just don't seem to have the b***s.

Private developers start off with oversized balls, albeit not often lots of cash. It only seems that way to people like yourself because a few million dollars sounds like it ought to be a lot, but in the context of a development of this scale, that doesn't get anybody very far. This means that they've gotta get one or more equity partners on board and then go out to find a loan...which means putting one testicle in a vice and signing over the other as collateral (which in the mean time will be surgically removed and held in escrow).

In this most compromising of situations, developers negotiate with other stakeholders with testicular preservation in mind rather than on the basis of testicular wit...which as it turns out often isn't very good to start with.

The end result is a product of collaboration, sufficiently bland as not to offend any of the stakeholders, but at the same time looking like it was designed by a eunuch.

This explanation holds true with HP, just as it holds true for ma & pa outfits that do custom homes in garrish faux styles. It has nothing to do, really, with what the developer wants and everything to do with what stakeholder require.

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