GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[RedScare]

The Shops are pretty crappy, even with the redo, so if this is a top-notch production, the Shops will be forced to respond in kind. Otherwise, they shut down. I like the prospect of the former, dread the latter.

[kjb434]

I'm hoping they will be able to serve different sectors and both be good.

The Pavillons seems more like a nightime entertainment concept with some restraunts and stores open during the day.

The important thing is for the Pavillons to bring in more residents to downtown proper. The will mean more customers to the Park Shops and possibly a renovation. I always thought the Park Shops was a great concept but never truly took off.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

I wonder what effect, if any, this will have on the existing Park mall or shops at Houston Center.  Maybe positive if it draws more shoppers downtown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It might be a positive effect. The Houston Center might just look at the success of Houston Pavillions and invest loads to compete with them. Then this all could spur the much needed retail that downtown needs. We shall see

[YakuzaIce]

Good news about the groundbreaking.

Does anyone know what the four towers will hold? They look like residential towers, and the office/hotel markets seem to soft right now.

[kjb434]

It's supposed to be a mix of all those.

[Houston19514]

Good news about the groundbreaking.

Does anyone know what the four towers will hold?  They look like residential towers, and the office/hotel markets seem to soft right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's hard to predict just based on overall market statistics. Look at downtown Dallas for example. They have a much higher office vacancy rate, and I believe a lower hotel occupancy rate than downtown Houston, and yet, there are several new hotels under development and at least one, if not several, new office buildings under development.

[texasboy]

The Park Shops will still be busy at lunchtime and workhours as usual. I don't really think the downtown workers really care about the urban environment or experience of shopping for clothes or eating at Houston Pavilions as long as they can get their food and go, which they can do at the Park Shops. For th people that work in the vicinity of Houston Pavilions, I think they will kepep it busy. Plus it seems like most of downtown's population is centered around this development. Commerce Towers, St Germain, Capitol Lofts, Houston House, Humble Tower, etc.

[Sunstar]

Any word on the tenants? Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that there would be a House of Blues, T-shirt store, pet shop, UNOS pizza, teather ball court, and a laser tag area. Not exactly enough to fill in a three-block retail development. One also has to wonder how a project like this can bring in new tenants when Bayou Place in the center of the Theater District can't get past phase I.

[texasboy]

I am all for entertainment but I hope the Houston PAvilions has just as much clothing retail as the one in Denver. Some of the Denver clothing stores are ann taylor, banana republic, express, gap, journey's, nike town, and victoria's secret.

[LTAWACS]

Only time will tell. I have my fingers crossed for this one.

[texasboy]

Only time will tell. I have my fingers crossed for this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As Houstonians I think we are a little impatient, but we should be on somethings though. *Cough* Shamrock *Cough*. I have an interest in projects that are going up in my hometown of LA, specifically the ones that will change downtown, and I have noticed they are just as slow with proposed and approved projects. I cannot even tell you how long I have been waiting for LA Live which is a Pavilions on steroids with a Times Square type theme with massive billboards giving off light pollution, but I think they have a little bit more patience than us because they have not given up on the project.

[LTAWACS]

As Houstonians I think we are a little impatient, but we should be on somethings though.  *Cough* Shamrock *Cough*.  I have an interest in projects that are going up in my hometown of LA, specifically the ones that will change downtown, and I have noticed they are just as slow with proposed and approved projects.  I cannot even tell you how long I have been waiting for LA Live which is a Pavilions on steroids with a Times Square type theme with massive billboards giving off light pollution, but I think they have a little bit more patience than us because they have not given up on the project.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, californians are known the world over for their more laid back approach.

[houstonfella]

That is funny.

The reason there is no liquor in Texas drug stores derives from Texas' arcane and utterly nonsensical liquor laws, that are kept that way by very well paid lobbyists, paid by the very wealthy liquor wholesalers.  Texas' "class" (or even lack thereof) has nothing to do with it.

The number one reason all liquor is sold from a dedicated liquor store, is that since liquor cannot be sold after 9:00 pm, the store would have to close at that time.  Profits, not class or public safety, drives this train.

There have been numerous attempts to bring these Prohibition era laws into the 21st century, all to no avail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gosh, I thought I was the only one frustrated by Texas' funky liquor laws. You cannot buy wine or beer at Kroger before noon on Sunday. You can buy beer at the football stadium at 10 a.m. on Sunday.

[RedScare]

No, houstonfella, all of us drunks have been frustrated by this stuff. It is especially annoying when a holiday falls on a Sunday.

Apparently, you can now get a beer at festivals, also at 10:00 am on Sundays, though. I think they got rid of the dorky food requirement, as well. Remember buying peanuts with your beer to qualify as a meal? Brilliant!

[kjb434]

Yeah,

I still love being able to buy hard liquor early sunday morning back in southern Lousisiana. North Louisiana is a different.

[houston-development]

Gosh, I thought I was the only one frustrated by Texas' funky liquor laws.  You cannot buy wine or beer at Kroger before noon on Sunday.  You can buy beer at the football stadium at 10 a.m. on Sunday. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

during the 1st year, technically (even though not enforced), you could not drink in the tailgating area prior to a noon kickoff. some legislation was passed to allow consumption at sporting events while eating/purchasing food. it will never be enforced in the tailgate area but it is inside the stadium. they make you buy a bag of peanuts with your drink

[LTAWACS]

I prefer to frequent the drive-thru liquor stores.

[InnerLoopOnly]

I prefer to frequent the drive-thru liquor stores.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I call BS. No way a principled urbanist such as yourself drives.

[kjb434]

Most new Urbanists include the vehicle as part of life. They just try to minimalize the use of it. Just look up New Urbanism on Google and you'll find out all kinds of stuff. Some are more serious than other. Most lifestyle centers and town center development are based on the New Urbanist principals minus the residential homes. New Urbanist would add the residential mid-rise and then a tight configuration of single family homes. If a new Urbanist would planning near a downtown area, they'll stick to the mid-rise condo/apartments.

[sevfiv]

and don't forget to add a 1/2 cup water, a dash of salt, and tada!

the new urbanist

[kjb434]

Sometimes that's what it seems to take.

What I get from a lot of New Urbanism literature I've read is a smarter approach to developing sprawl. Don't get me wrong, they do a lot a inner city dense type development. But they also realize that the dream of owning your own home with a yard is something that won't go away. They have decided set up some principles to allow for typical residential and commercial development to be laid out in a way that induces more walking and less car driving. You may still have to drive to get to a commuter station to take a train or bus into work, but once you are home you don't need your car for anything else.

The Pavillons concept and what was done in Denver is a very much New Urbanist concept in a dense urban setting.

Hows that for sequeing back into the topic?

[RedScare]

^^^

So seamless, I didn't even notice.

[kjb434]

hehe,

Hey, just a coincidence, the Houston Strategies Blog by Tory Gattis is talking about New Urbanism.

[LTAWACS]

I call BS.  No way a principled urbanist such as yourself drives. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only when I'm driving. I mean after all, this IS Harris County, aint it?

[RedScare]

hehe,

Hey, just a coincidence, the Houston Strategies Blog by Tory Gattis is talking about New Urbanism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And just as smoothly as you segued back to the Pavilions, I will segue away...sort of.

Houston Strategies, and the Orange County writer, make a valid point; that there is room for both, the New Urbanist AND the Suburbanite. There is not enough room for all of us in the city cores, nor would we want all of us in the city cores. What they suggest is a continuation (or a beginning) of the policies that encourage efficient living by those who can or wish to live in dense, vibrant inner city locales, while encouraging efficient use of the suburban space as well.

This includes upgraded mass transit systems for the inner city, new developments, such as midtown, returning retail to the inner city, such as Houston Pavilions, but also extending commuter rail to the burbs, developing 'town centers', where the suburban resident can drive to one place and walk the shops for his or her needs, before returning home in one shortened trip, and encouraging the development of infill projects, rather than moving still farther out.

While the current crop of politicians and the media pundits who promote their agendas will have you believe that the extremes are the best solutions, that is rarely, if ever, correct. There are valid points in both schemes, and as usual, the best solution will include both.

[HeightsGuy]

The Park Shops (and Foleys) will benefit tremendously by this. Neither currently are destination retail centers, rather they are convenience retail centers, meaning people already in downtown (mostly because of work) go there. People do not leave their house to go downtown to Foleys/Park Shops.

Add this place, and both Foleys and The Park Shops will benefit due to it being a "destination" retail area, meaning people will come to the Pavilions to shop, but once they are parked and shopping there is a good chance they will continue their shopping experience by strolling over to Foleys.

Think of Dillards next to the Galleria. Without the Galleria, Dillards would get much less business.

[tierwestah]

I hate to be the one to burst everyone's bubble but i figure most of you can't stand me anyway because i tend to speak the truth. So what the hell

I called the 818 number on the website and had an intresting little talk with the lady who answered the phone. She acted like she didn't really like her job that much because she tried various times to rush me off the phone.

I asked her to tell me a few details about the planned Houston Pavilions project. She didn't have anything to tell me. The only thing she said was, " The project hasn't been pubically announced yet, so there's really nothing to tell. I asked her, "Well there's a website, how is that not publicity?" She said that she knew of the website but there was no public announcement. So i asked her if the project was even going to happen. She said yes the project is going to happen but it hasn't been announced. So then she rushes me off the phone and i'm forced to hang up.

That's all i could get out the lady. Perhaps i got some lady who's so caught up in her own personal life that she didn't really want to go the extra mile and tell anything of the project. Be that as it may, if i depended on her entirely, i would say that this project doesn't sound too promising.

[Guest Mastermindbuilder]

Well, you done a good deed, tierwestah.

I'll bet you this project will be like Shamrock Towers. They might still build the Pavilions, but it maybe put on hold.

I'll beleive this will happen. Houston has done things slow, but coming. I think by this time next year, houston will be booming again. Its alot of projects that I've know of it holding out until next year, or will start ground breaking.

[Subdude]

Thanks for checking and dealing with the unpleasant lady!

[Talbot]

Yes, thanks for checking, but i still have hope for this project. I feel that it is different than the Shamrock and I still think it will be built, we just need to have some patience.

[Guest Mastermindbuilder]

Yes, I agree. Patience plays a big part.

[houston-development]

you cannot compare the developers of houston pavilions to tracy suttles; that's comparing apples to oranges.

while one has the experience and backing to take on a project of this magnitude, the other can barely even make his house payment.

you be the judge

[tierwestah]

you cannot compare the developers of houston pavilions to tracy suttles; that's comparing apples to oranges.

while one has the experience and backing to take on a project of this magnitude, the other can barely even make his house payment.

you be the judge

[HeightsGuy]

Um, if someone called me out of the blue that is either a) not one of my customers, or b ) not one of my potential customers, and starts asking me questions about the direction the company I work for is going to take regarding potential projects, I am quite certian I would be a very rude person to talk with as well........

[The Great Hizzy!]

^^^^ Because the HTML code for the smiley is essentially the same as b.) (you'll note that I used a period in mine to avoid the smiley).

[HeightsGuy]

Thanks Hizzy, fixed it, now everyone is wondering what we are talking about.... (meant for that smiley face)

[The Great Hizzy!]

Hey! You cheated! Why did you cheat?!?!

I had problems with the smiley thing too, so I understand your irrititation.

[LTAWACS]

perhaps one of us could call again and see what happens?

[YakuzaIce]

Well here is the number 818-991-2964

I may try and call when I get home.

[eelimon]

Well here is the number 818-991-2964

I may try and call when I get home.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I am new to this (forum), and I just wanted to know. Have any of you called?

What about the residences are they going to be condos or apartments?

What is the price point for them?

Did someone say there will be a hotel too?

What about the question about density of the current downtown residential community, will this be an issue that will hold up this project?

[C2H]

I just called the number folks! A man answered. He sounded more friendly than a few of you made the lady out to sound. I asked him for a few details, pretending to be a business proposer. He stated the Website hasn't been updated because they had been running behind schedule.

I asked him if the project was a go. He stated that they are spending alot of money and investing alot to insure the project is a go. That's all he could tell me. Soo, I'm hoping so, for Houston.

[kjb434]

We need to remember that for a large part the website before this place is finished is just for people like us and maybe for comercial tenants that are thinking going into the place. I think the website will come alive win construction starts. It will probably used as a vehicle to get people to go to the place and for possible new residents to rent or buy in the place.

I'd rather them work behind the scenes ensuring this place is built than pay so much attention to the website to keep up happy overhere.

This project will be the second venture like this being modeled after the Denver project. I think the developer sees Houston as the next downtown Denver as far as starving for a commercial development and an urban residential place.

Luckily having done this before, i think this developer has some legitimacy.

[H-Town Man]

For anyone who has just joined this conversation, I want to sum up all the intelligible information that has been given over the last four pages, to spare you the trouble of reading through all of it:

1. A developer has announced a mixed-use project called Houston Pavilions, to be built on three blocks of downtown land running east from Main St. across from the Courtyard by Marriott.

2. The project may include office space, but it probably won't, since the vacancy is so high.

3. There might be a Virgin Megastore, or there might not.

4. The developer might be breaking ground this fall, or it may be in 2006, or there may be no planned groundbreaking.

5. It may benefit The Park Shops. Or it may not.

6. The developer is probably going to get this done in Houston, since he did it in Denver.

7. But regardless of whether he gets it done, downtown Houston is just getting started, so there's no doubt we'll be seeing a lot of cool stuff in five or ten years.

There, I think that covers everything.

[Talbot]

Thanks for the info C2H, it sounds pretty solid, so i am hoping as well that it goes through.

[LTAWACS]

As am I.

[brijonmang]

based on allll the stuff ive heard and considering it is a reputable developer i am very optimistic about this project...it has great potential and will add momentum to the snowball on top of a hill that is downtown...we just need projects like these to really push it forward

[C2H]

Thanks for the info C2H, it sounds pretty solid, so i am hoping as well that it goes through.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah no problem, i'm just as curious as the next guy. I want to see Houston thrive just like the next guy. I think that would definitely start in the city center.

[ninjacop]

If you get cheap housing in downtown, then it'll thrive. Those people tend to shop downtown. the rich folks likes to live in downtown but shops somewhere else.

just go to NY or San Fran. you see a large diversity of people mostly low income grocery shopping in outside vendors.

That market place they set up there on the northeast side, what type of folks you think shops there. and notice the lack of crowds.

[eelimon]

....

That market place they set up there on the northeast side, what type of folks you think shops there. and notice the lack of crowds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you mean?

[ninjacop]

I meant they're not the typical downtown dwellers you see in NY or San Fran.

What do you mean?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>