GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[MontroseNeighborhoodCafe]

Dec. 4, 2004, 10:42PM

Pitching a downtown dream

Developers see loft-style offices, condos tied into flashy retailing, entertainment

By NANCY SARNOFF

Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

Picture this: A luxury hotel, residential condominiums and loft-style offices, all connected by flashy urban retail, entertainment and culture.

Now picture it in downtown Houston.

An ambitious pair of developers wants to build the city's biggest mixed-use project yet on what is now three parking lots just off Main Street.

Bill Denton, a developer from California, and Geoff Jones, a local developer, are behind this concept that seems almost too good to be true.

Denton and Jones have signed a sales contract to buy the three blocks of downtown land bordered by Main, Polk, Dallas and Caroline.

They're out there pitching their project to potential retailers and investors.

But they won't talk to the media about it until they're further along in their plans.

That's probably not a bad strategy.

Houston has seen countless developers announce huge real estate projects that never seem to make it out of the ground.

So are these guys for real?

Denton's company, Entertainment Development Group, is based in Agoura Hills, Calif.

It's certainly worth noting that he was behind a large retail project in Denver that many folks believed would never happen.

Built in 1998, Denver Pavilions is now a hugely successful entertainment and retail complex with dozens of retail stores and restaurants, a nightclub and a 15-screen movie theater.

The project is made up of four three-story buildings, linked by walkways and escalators, that cover two blocks on Denver's famous 16th Street Mall.

Tenants include Virgin Megastore, Hard Rock Cafe, NikeTown, Barnes & Noble Superstore, Wolfgang Puck Grand Cafe, Maggiano's Little Italy and Lucky Strike Lanes, a hip bowling alley concept.

According to the project's Web site, the $108 million development was financed in part by Rosche Finanz of Freiberg, Germany, and Hensel Phelps Construction Co.

The closest things downtown Houston has to cutting-edge mixed-use real estate projects are Bayou Place in the Theater District and Houston Center near the George R. Brown Convention Center.

But half of Bayou Place has sat vacant since it opened years ago.

Just last week, owner Cordish Co. said it wants to build residential units there.

And Houston Center is still facing identity issues despite recent repositioning efforts by the owner, Crescent.

It's still way too early to predict the future of these three city blocks.

Time and interest in downtown Houston will be the ultimate judge.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.mpl/business/2931451

[Sunstar]

There certainly are no shortages of proposals for downtown. Whether any of them ever get built is anyone's guess. Frankly, this one sounds like it will die on the vine. Another downtown hotel? C'mon, get real. And there have been numerous residential proposals before this one, none of which has gotten off the ground. It's good to know that people are still trying though.

[houstonsemipro]

I agree with Sunstar on this one. This will never get off the ground. Probably never see the time of day on this propose project.

[houstonsemipro]

You know, I thought of something just now. If this project get's built downtown it will open the doors for other retail and entertainment developers in downtown, and midtown areas.

[suzerain]

There certainly are no shortages of proposals for downtown. Whether any of them ever get built is anyone's guess. Frankly, this one sounds like it will die on the vine. Another downtown hotel? C'mon, get real.  And there have been numerous residential proposals before this one, none of which has gotten off the ground.  It's good to know that people are still trying though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would say the one thing going for this project is person running it has already successfully pulled off a development like this. According to my fiance, the project in DT Denver is quite nice and popular. I for one, having been disappointed in some other projects, will just not speculate over whether or not this will be built, but just enjoy the fact that projects like this are being pitched for DT Houston. Even if this one does not get built, one of the proposals will get built and then maybe skittish developers will see this type of development will work.

Remeber, 99% of people in this world are followers, including businesses. The people who run these businesses are people subejct to the same thing. Once they see one person set the trend the rest of them will jump on board. Look at the Uptown Dallas area where the developers have embraces light rail and are now contacting DART to see where other Light Rail lines are going to go so they can plan development oriented towards that rail. Look at the whole thing of people loving back into the core of the city. Every year, I hear more people in my age group, midtwenties, wanting to move out of the suburbs and into the city. Just need to get some new blood into some of these local companies who are willing to set a trend.

Suzerain

[713 To 214]

Is the City of Houston offering any TIF incentives to attract more development downtown? I would think that this project would be a no-brainer due to its close proximity to METRORAIL, Main Street retail and Minutemaid Park.

[Talbot]

I think it sounds awesome, but i wont hold my breathe so that I wont be disappointed if it does fail, but i really do want it to happen. It makes it even better that they have already done a project like this elsewhere. Also it's good that they are keeping a low profile as to not get any hopes up unlike Shamrock which I guess we wont be seeing.

[Subdude]

Even if it doesn't happen, it's interesting that at least there is starting to be a significant number of residential proposals for downtown: Holiday Inn, Bayou Place, Shamrock etc. After a slow spell of a few years it indicates that developers are beginning to see that downtown again has some potential. My guess is that this is due to the light rail and to the fact that the economy finally seems to be picking up. Still, it may take a couple of years yet for any of these proposals to become reality.

[midtown_resident]

I agree with Sunstar on this one. This will never get off the ground. Probably never see the time of day on this propose project.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For someone who's been touting the absolutivity of the Shamrock...that's quite a bit of negativity. Why do you think it will never get off the ground?

[largeTEXAS]

I know no one wants to get their hopes up just to be disappointed later. But, before the Pavillions were built in Denver, everyone was saying IT would never happen. We'll have to wait and see, but Denton is pretty sure about this thing. Frankly, it would be just the thing downtown would need to jump start its retail renaissance -

I hope it does happen.

[Houston Retail]

The hotel market is supposed to bounce back in 2007, which is about the time this would come online. The right hotel flag would make a huge impact. Ill try to post a few pictures of the pavillions, but I am confident that he can pull this off if he does it right. This development team is not to be compared with the Shamrock. Bill has been around for years and is an old retail guru. He is being calculated with his approach to the project, in fact, he has been working on this project for many years. He had the Crescent block tied up a long time ago. I think this site would suit the development better.

And I am excited about the number of projects being talked about along the rail line. Its great energy for the corridor to have.

[yaga]

The Pavillion in Denver:

[The Great Hizzy!]

At a minimum, I like the speculation for the property, and the location is great. Talk about developing an actual "retail district." The idea for Main Street Square is to make it a central retail/public gathering space. If you can make the adjacent blocks come alive with retail space and services, then you truly have an opportunity to make MSSq what it was intended to be.

I always envisioned a pair of 850-950 foot towers with spires connected by a parking structure (with retail) for those three blocks in question but this is great, too.

[Subdude]

The planned build-out of retail space on the ground floor of the Sakowitz building will help support additional retail development as well, but I think the rail has a lot more to do with it than MSS. It will be great if something is built on these blocks. It has always bothered me that there are three adjacent totally vacant blocks sitting right in the middle of downtown. It is like a giant scar.

[houstonsemipro]

What type of tenants is going to be at Sakowitz building, Subdude?

[2112]

At a minimum, I like the speculation for the property, and the location is great. Talk about developing an actual "retail district." The idea for Main Street Square is to make it a central retail/public gathering space. If you can make the adjacent blocks come alive with retail space and services, then you truly have an opportunity to make MSSq what it was intended to be.

I always envisioned a pair of 850-950 foot towers with spires connected by a parking structure (with retail) for those three blocks in question but this is great, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course, the taller the structure, the more people will live there, the more street activity! But, part of me would prefer midrise on those 3 blocks, something on the order of 5-to-15 floors.

[Talbot]

Well seeing that he did do it in Denver and his development team seems more successful than Shamrock, it raises my confidence in it a bit more. Im still waiting for the day that i see work being done for Shamrock.

[Subdude]

What type of tenants is going to be at Sakowitz building, Subdude?

No tenants have been announced. My guess is that they won't be anything major.

I'm not sure downtown can support too large an infusion of residential right now. If residential is included (unlike the Denver development), it might need to be phased in, arguing for smaller structures rather than high-rises. Maybe 4-5 stories?

[greystone08(returns)]

When i went to Denver, i was very impressed with how well they did with their downtown. The Denver Pavilion and 16th Street Mall is straight gorgeous. I think Main Street shows signs of much potential but it seems like things have slowed down after all the hype from the Superbowl died out. I'm excited about seeing new projects and proposals for Main Street but i think if Denver, a city that's half the size of Houston can pull it off, there's no reason why the 4th largest city shouldn't be able to either. Main Street does need to develop more things than just bars and clubs though if it expects to make it. More mixed activity for various ages needs to take efect

[UrbanGeranimal]

"I'm not sure downtown can support too large an infusion of residential right now. "

--------

I agree with that. There are not enough people that would seriously consider moving downtown. The long range plan by the downtown association relies in some part on attracting families. I have to disagree with them on this point. Families enjoy suburbia too much to be enticed to downtown. And that is fine with me.

[713 To 214]

^Yeah, empty-nesters and young professionals should be their target right now. With families, the key word is children. I don't think that many Houstonians with children are ready for children playing on main street and around all of the constructuon projects. . .and then there's the really big issue. . . SCHOOL/EDUCATION. What are the closes "goog\d" schools near downtown?

After that then families start thinking about how far to the nearest dry cleaners, grocery store, video rental location, etc.

[dbigtex56]

Of course, the taller the structure, the more people will live there, the more street activity!  But, part of me would prefer midrise on those 3 blocks, something on the order of 5-to-15 floors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'd think because hi-rises contain more people that they naturally would spill out to the street.

But look at the area around 2016 Main, or the Houston House. The residents pretty much communicate with the outside world via the parking garage. Of course, if there was something worth walking to once outside, the situation would be quite different.

[ricco67]

713to214,

Actually there are a couple of excellent private schools in the area. One of which my Little sister attended. I'm sure there might be a couple of more that I don't know about, but there is also a number of Day Care Centers I found out that are near there as well!

In regards to poeple not walking out, you're right, there really isn't all that much to go around in. Maybe if they moved that bloody Bus station, and build up a couple of more buildings/residences/mixed use buildings, it would pick up considerably.

Ricco

[Subdude]

You'd think because hi-rises contain more people that they naturally would spill out to the street.

But look at the area around 2016 Main, or the Houston House. The residents pretty much communicate with the outside world via the parking garage. Of course, if there was something worth walking to once outside, the situation would be quite different.

High-rises can actually hurt developing an urban environment. If you look at a lot of great cities, most of the residential is actually in the 3-6 story range. That gives you density while keeping an urban scale and maitaining a relationship to the street.

[Houston Retail]

AHHHH!  Hurry up and build this, already!  We NEED a big spark in downtown, and this just might be it!  Im sick of sitting around, as nothing is done, and meanwhile, a certain city to the north is getting massive amounts of revolutionary projects!  JUST BUILD IT!  If you want, Ill dig the first pier for the foundation just to get this moving!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You want a big spark for downtown?

Bill Denton and Geoff Jones just closed on the three blocks at Main and Dallas and are planning a project like they did in Denver (over a million sf of mixed - use space). it will be sad if this project goes up before shamrock.

[Lowbrow]

You want a big spark for downtown?

Bill Denton and Geoff Jones just closed on the three blocks at Main and Dallas and are planning a project like they did in Denver (over a million sf of mixed - use space).  it will be sad if this project goes up before shamrock.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was just wondering the other day what was going to happen to those properties.

[yaga]

This is good news! If this thing looks anything like the one in Denver this could get the ball rolling downtown!

www.denverpavilions.com

The Pavilions is a three and four-level open air shopping, dining, and entertainment center! It is divided into four separate buildings and spanning two city blocks. Located on the 16th Street Mall

[Talbot]

atleast someone has their act together. Maybe this will motivate other developers as well. I can only hope. And then perhaps we'll see Shamrock go up in our life times.

[2112]

The thing that is bugging me is: Why is Bayou Place not brimming with activity? I mean, this new development is pretty much like Bayou Place, and BP has more synergy to tap off from, mainly the theater district and its proximity, now, to the historic north downtown district and all the clubs there.

But then again, I guess you could say "build it and they will come". maybe the south downtown area will attract the midtown crowd, especially if there is a destination like a large book store.

I want to see this happen, but I am worried that it will be as dead as Bayou Place can sometimes be.

[Houston Retail]

bayou place is too far disconected from main street.

One thing it has going for it is the abundant parking, and if they ever build residnetial there it would sure help.

[The Great Hizzy!]

There aren't that many tenants at Bayou Place, and of those who are there, Hard Rock Cafe & Slick Willie's are the only two that really mean something to those who don't spend a lot of time downtown (those who would be needed to make the place swell with activity). Also, Bayou Place has no consumable retail. The new project is supposed to have manufactured retail available, which is important in helping draw interest to the project overall. I mean, people like to eat but they spend more time shopping and they shop at all times of the day.

The West End in Dallas doesn't have much consumable retail either and is mostly dependent upon people visiting the Sixth Floor Museum or what have you wanting to eat (although, the West End has more recognizable venues and better overall attendance than BP). On the other thand, Bayside in Miami not only has your Hooters, your Hard Rock Cafe and Your Bubba Gump Shrimp Co., they have a litany of stores, from Banana Republic to J. Crew. The difference in attendance between these two projects (and Bayou Place, for that matter) is very noticeable, especially on weeknights.

You also have the advantage with regard to this new project of having Foley's nearby along with the rail line, and a denser conglomeration of office buildings and residential (such as the Commerce and Kirby Towers). There's also a large hotel across the street as well as two others within a few blocks down Dallas Street. So I think it has the potential to be a great success from the get go both from the perspective of locals and of visitors.

[jt16]

This is great news! What's sad is tht this thread has merged into a new subject. I want to be so optimistic about the Shamrock, but it just doesn't look like anything will happen.

[UrbaNerd]

YAY! i hope they get this thing started!(the mixed use)

Main@Dallas is great, since Dallas St leads up to the Convention center and such. Once the CC park is built, that area could have a nice boom of more mixed use!

This spark could just be close enough to that area to ignite east DT development!

[2112]

YAY!  i hope they get this thing started!(the mixed use)

Main@Dallas is great, since Dallas St leads up to the Convention center and such.  Once the CC park is built, that area could have a nice boom of more mixed use!

This spark could just be close enough to that area to ignite east DT development!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ummm...can we NOT use "main@dallas" as the address please? How' bout main@polk? Yea, main@polk. That's better.

[The Great Hizzy!]

@ 2112

I was also thinking that, hey, look... even if the current quest for the Shamrock ends with nothing being built, such a project as the one planned for Main @ Polk could still be a catalyst for another type of residential project at that location. If it's a matter of the development group, then I don't think there's much to worry about longterm, as people have already (allegedly) shown enough interest in living at the location. And even if it is a problem with attracting interest from buyers, I think having a project like the mixed-use property down the rail line would give that lot more visibility to a broader range of interested people.

[UrbaNerd]

AHH, right! Main@POLK! In fact, they changed part of "polk" to "Avenida de Americas" to avoid such an issue!

[NYC Texan2]

This is excellent news. I am not a believer that the Shamrock is going to happen at this point due to the overhang of available condos in downtown (case in point: the St. Germain). Also, I think downtown is still lacking the attractions for families--especially multiple playgrounds, which are just a basic for people with small children. Playgrounds are a fundamental building block for life in Manhattan, and you can't have a car-less culture for children without them.

Anyway, I also think the breakout residential projects downtown will fit this profile--being done by developers from out of town who understand the drivers of urban environments. So this is a good sign.

[Lowbrow]

Also, I think downtown is still lacking the attractions for families--especially multiple playgrounds, which are just a basic for people with small children.  Playgrounds are a fundamental building block for life in Manhattan, and you can't have a car-less culture for children without them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is very true. I have 3 items keeping me from living in dowtown atm and this is one of them. Also on the list are lack of stuff to do downtown during the day (for adults this time) and my commute to westchase (anyone know what it looks like about 7am?).

Grocery store isnt that important to me since I only do it once a week.

[UrbaNerd]

Plus, you can head to midtown for that.

[ssullivan]

You want a big spark for downtown?

Bill Denton and Geoff Jones just closed on the three blocks at Main and Dallas and are planning a project like they did in Denver (over a million sf of mixed - use space).  it will be sad if this project goes up before shamrock.

YAY! I'm glad they actually closed on the deal to buy that land. I would love to see their proposed development come to fruition in that location and this is a sign that it might just happen.

[ssullivan]

Ummm...can we NOT use "main@dallas" as the address please?  How' bout main@polk?  Yea, main@polk.  That's better.

Haha. Well you know a block of Dallas had it's name changed during the construction of the Hilton Americas so that the new hotel wouldn't have a Dallas address. But that wasn't really such a big deal; Dallas and McKinney kind of merged together in that block anyway. So the Hilton actually has a McKinney address even though it's technically on Dallas.

[ssullivan]

Maybe the playground will come with the new park in front of the GRB.

[111486]

Maybe the playground will come with the new park in front of the GRB.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Playgorund? ewwwwwwwwww. Am I missing something here about a playground in downtown.

[Houston19514]

AHH, right!

[ssullivan]

The original name of Avenida de las Americas was the ever exciting "Convention Center Blvd."

[2112]

I believe, if I recall, that the whole issue there was changing the address of the GRB to something other than

[Houston19514]

I believe, if I recall, that the whole issue there was changing the address of the GRB to something other than

[UrbaNerd]

Ahh, right. I read about it a loong time ago.

ANYWAY..hopefully we hear more aout this project soon!

[new_guy]

Has anyone seen this?

Is this something old?

Houston Pavillions

[2112]

No, no, no.  Just like Polk, Dallas runs perpendicular to the GRB.  Avenida de las Americas runs parallel to, and in front of, the GRB.  Avenida de las Americas was never named "Dallas" either.  The address of the GRB has never been on either Polk or Dallas Streets.

What you are thinking of was when they renamed Dallas Street in front of the Hilton Americas Hotel just to avoid having a "Dallas Street" address for the convention center.  A really silly (and amateurish) move, in my opinion, and the city of Dallas was right in its comment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea. That sounds about what I remember. By the way, did you ever move back to Houston? Ok, back to the subject!!