2009 Nissan GT-R

[TJones]

If Nissan says it can do a 3.4 second 0-60, then the owner should be able to do a 3.4 second 0-60 without breaking the transmission or voiding the warranty.

..and you can, as long as you give it the proper break in period and stuff. These fools that claim that the transmission cratered on them, were shotgunning it, dumping the clutch at 8k rpm a couple of dozen times within a short period, with 200 miles on the car. a $400k Ferrari can't handle that kind of stress, and Ferrari ain't gonna cover that abuse either. Edmunds.com and Car and Driver, have found no fault with their trannies and Edmunds has 11,000 miles on theirs and did the proper break-in and always do the required maintenance. Bottomline though is that if you are gonna treat it like a race car the whole time, then you better go hire yourself a pitcrew to fix it. Ferrari and Porsche, and Chevy, all have the same disclaimer, if you are drag racing it, at all times, then you will void the warranty. Those "numbers" are simply to show what it is capable of, not a blueprint on how it should be driven at all times. The owner's manual specifically states that you should adhere to the traffic laws while driving their product, and doing 0-60 in 3.4 is called EXHIBITION OF POWER. That is against the law. If you take it out to Texas Motor SPeedway and drive 180 mph for 10 laps, you will VOID your warranty. That is why the black box is in place, to keep people honest about how they treat their cars.

[memebag]

..and you can, as long as you give it the proper break in period and stuff. These fools that claim that the transmission cratered on them, were shotgunning it, dumping the clutch at 8k rpm a couple of dozen times within a short period, with 200 miles on the car. a 400k Ferrari can't handle that kind of stress, and Ferrari ain't gonna cover that abuse either. Edmunds.com and Car and Driver, have found no fault with their tranies and Edmunds has 11,000 miles on thiers and did the proper break-in and always do the required maintenance. Bottomline though is that if you are gonna treat it like a race car the whole time, then you better go hire yourself a pitcrew to fix it. Ferrari and Porsche, and Chevy, all have the same disclaimer, if you are drag racing it, at all times, then you will void the warranty. Those "numbers" are simply to show what it is capable of, not a blueprint on how it should be driven at all times. The owner's manual specifically states that you should adhere to the traffic laws while driving their product, and doing 0-60 in 3.4 is called EXHIBITION OF POWER. That is against the law. If you take it out to Texas Motor SPeedway and drive 180 mph for 10 laps, you will VOID your warranty. That is why the black box is in place, to keep people honest about how they treat their cars.

Still seems crappy. It doesn't void a Porsche warranty to drive it hard.

[ricco67]

Still seems crappy. It doesn't void a Porsche warranty to drive it hard.

Sorry, I have to back TJones on this one. Even at a young age, I was referred to as an old woman for being nice an tender with the my car for the first few hundred miles while my friends took their cars to see what they could do as soon as they were handed the keys.

They burned out their trannys (and their transmissions too) long before mine even needed to be serviced and I did the same things (for the most part) that they did to their cars. My car outlasted theirs and still sold for a good price. There is something to be said about proper care for a car.

[TJones]

Still seems crappy. It doesn't void a Porsche warranty to drive it hard.

Unfortunately it DOES meme. This is page 14 from the porscheusa.com online warranty for a 911. I took the liberty of bolding the important part. Amazingly, this is almost EXACTLY how the GT-R warranty booklet reads. Hmmmm, imagine that ?

"• Wheel balancing and wheel alignment beyond the first three months of

service unless part of a warranty repair.

• Unauthorized modifications or vehicles with total loss or salvage titles.

• Modifications not authorized by Porsche Cars N.A. or it’s authorized dealers.

• Service adjustments (such as idle speed, air/fuel mixture, brake,

clutch, headlight, and drive belts) beyond the first three months of

service unless part of a warranty repair.

• Improper repairs by someone other than Porsche Cars N.A. or its au-

thorized dealers.

• Abuse, accident, acts of God, competition, racing or track use or

other events.

Note: Components and/or parts that fail during racing or driving events

(including Porsche sponsored events) will not be covered by the new

car limited warranty.

• Minor wind noise and insignificant seepage at the joints be-

tween the top and the body, or door windows in Cabriolet,

hardtop or Targa models cannot be completely avoided under

all circumstances. Your Cabriolet should not be washed in a

car wash and may experience damage to the top or rear win-

dow due to the scratching by the brushes or may experience

leaks due to the high pressure water streams directed in areas

which would not experience water in normal driving condi-

tions. It is extremely important to have the cabriolet and soft top

drains (including the body cowl drains) cleaned as part of yearly

maintenance. Failure to do so may result in subsequent damage.

Please see your authorized Porsche dealership for details con-

cerning required maintenance.

• The outside of the underbody (floor pan) or any other part of the car

except body panels.

• Paint damage caused by abuse or lack of proper maintenance.

• Environmental damage (such as that caused by acid rain or other in-

dustrial pollution, insect or bird droppings, tree sap, stones or other

flying missiles, highway maintenance chemicals, flood, storm, and

other forms of disaster.)

• Paint color matching. (Porsche Cars N.A. reserves the right to decide

whether painting the repaired or replaced panel to match the original

finish is practicable. Porsche Cars N.A. will not, under any circum-

stances, pay for painting the entire car solely for paint color match-

ing.)

• Paint damage caused by the application of unauthorized paint

sealants or polymers. See your authorized Porsche automobile dealer

for details.

•

Note: Your vehicle is a mechanical device. All mechanical de-

vices make some sort of noise and/or vibration. These noises

and vibrations can differ from vehicle to vehicle. Porsche Cars

N.A. recognizes those noises as normal and characteristic of

the product. Normal noises or vibrations as determined by

Porsche Cars N.A. can be anything from brake squeal to road

vibration. Therefore, normal noise and/or vibration and/or dete-

rioration as determined by Porsche Cars N.A. or its representa-

tive, is not covered by our new car limited warranty.

Your Responsibility for Maintenance

You must maintain your Porsche automobile according to the Maintenance

Schedule in the Maintenance Booklet and the Car Care Instructions in"

[TheNiche]

The owner's manual specifically states that you should adhere to the traffic laws while driving their product, and doing 0-60 in 3.4 is called EXHIBITION OF POWER. That is against the law. If you take it out to Texas Motor SPeedway and drive 180 mph for 10 laps, you will VOID your warranty. That is why the black box is in place, to keep people honest about how they treat their cars.

I understand their rationale for setting limits on warranties. I also recognize that there may be legal ramifications if they were to willfully perform warranty work on vehicles which were damaged as a result of "Exhibitions of Power", as it may seem as though they were condoning it. So I do not blame them for their warranty limitations (as much as I blame lawyers and the legal system). Still, if you're going to manufacture vehicles that are marketed on the basis of their (illegal) performance capabilities to buyers that are explicitly interested in those capabilities, it just seems wrong not to hold those vehicles to a different standard than subcompact economy car, for instance.

The other thing I don't like is that they must have a formula of some sort to determine whether 'w' number of launches is too many, whether 'x' rate of acceleration is too much, whether 'y' miles per hour is too fast, whether 'z' number of minutes at 180mph is too many, etc. It just seems disingenuous not to make that formula explicit, or perhaps even for there not to be some kind of a warning indicator that the vehicle's warranty has almost been voided or has been voided.

The bottom line is clarity. If I'm going to sink a major chunk of change into a performance vehicle, I desire clarity with respect to the warranty.

EDIT: For instance, the Porsche warranty is voided if the vehicle is abused. wtf does that mean? What, specifically, can I not do to it?

[TJones]

I understand their rationale for setting limits on warranties. I also recognize that there may be legal ramifications if they were to willfully perform warranty work on vehicles which were damaged as a result of "Exhibitions of Power", as it may seem as though they were condoning it. So I do not blame them for their warranty limitations (as much as I blame lawyers and the legal system). Still, if you're going to manufacture vehicles that are marketed on the basis of their (illegal) performance capabilities to buyers that are explicitly interested in those capabilities, it just seems wrong not to hold those vehicles to a different standard than subcompact economy car, for instance.

The other thing I don't like is that they must have a formula of some sort to determine whether 'w' number of launches is too many, whether 'x' rate of acceleration is too much, whether 'y' miles per hour is too fast, whether 'z' number of minutes at 180mph is too many, etc. It just seems disingenuous not to make that formula explicit, or perhaps even for there not to be some kind of a warning indicator that the vehicle's warranty has almost been voided or has been voided.

The bottom line is clarity. If I'm going to sink a major chunk of change into a performance vehicle, I desire clarity with respect to the warranty.

EDIT: For instance, the Porsche warranty is voided if the vehicle is abused. wtf does that mean? What, specifically, can I not do to it?

Ummm, you don't do clutch dumps at 6k-8k RPM 20 times in a row, you don't even do it 5 times in a row. The heat that generates will cause something to break. How come you and meme can't seem to grasp that ?

Look at it this way, there is no warranty from the factory on NASCARs or NHRA cars is there. If you wish to drive your street car as such, then expect to pay for that privledge, at your own risk. Keeping in mind that even NASCARs breakdown because of friction and heat, NHRA car's engines are broken down after EVERY run and parts replaced to try and insure no breakage on the next run, because of the heat and friction those cars generate. 10 to 20 clutch dumps at 6k-8k RPMs WILL destroy your car, and that is abuse.

If you buy a greyhound as a pet and continuously make it run on a treadmill at 30 mph for 1 minute at a time with a 2 minute break in between intervals for 1 hr. Then the dog dies of a heartattack, you gonna try to take it back to the breeder under warranty ?

[memebag]

Ummm, you don't do clutch dumps at 6k-8k RPM 20 times in a row, you don't even do it 5 times in a row. The heat that generates will cause something to break. How come you and meme can't seem to grasp that ?

Are you claiming that's the only way these transmissions broke? It seems that a lot of GT-R owners are saying otherwise.

[TJones]

Are you claiming that\'s the only way these transmissions broke? It seems that a lot of GT-R owners are saying otherwise.

I will bet dollars to doughnuts that they weren't driving to the local HEB or on the Loop takin' a Sunday drive to the coast doin\' 70mph in the middle lane, and the tranny blew up meme.

The black box tells all. Look, if you broke your mom's crystal vase and she didn't see you, and you and the cat were the only ones in the room, who you gonna blame ? You'll blame the cat, until your mom shows you the video she had hiding in the bookshelf. Same principal applies with the black box, it tells EXACTLY what was going on when the tranny blew, and if Nissan said, "We ain't fixin' that Mario ." It is because they pulled the Data recorder memory and saw the engine stats when he was racing the thug-punk in the '05 Impala seconds before shutdown. I'm saying it is HIGHLY unlikely anyone lost a tranny the way they claimed, before the dealership pulled the real story, and asked the owner if he wanted to change hishe's.

Meme, quit believing everything you read at the NAGTROC site. BTW, I found the entry where this whole B.S. started. The guy even admits to knowing he shouldn't be driving the way he was.

Here it is:

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25361

[memebag]

I will bet dollars to doughnuts that they weren\'t driving to the local HEB or on the Loop takin\' a Sunday drive to the coast doin\' 70mph in the middle lane, and the tranny blew up meme.

The black box tells all. Look, if you broke your mom\'s crystal vase and she didn\'t see you, and you and the cat were the only ones in the room, who you gonna blame ? You\'ll blame the cat, until your mom shows you the video she had hiding in the bookshelf. Same principal applies with the black box, it tells EXACTLY what was going on when the tranny blew, and if Nissan said, \"We ain\'t fixin\' that Mario .\" It is because they pulled the Data recorder memory and saw the engine stats when he was racing the thug-punk in the \'05 Impala seconds before shutdown. I\'m saying it is HIGHLY unlikely anyone lost a tranny the way they claimed, before the dealership pulled the real story, and asked the owner if he wanted to change his/her\'s.

Meme, quit believing everything you read at the NAGTROC site. BTW, I found the entry where this whole B.S. started. The guy even admits to knowing he shouldn\'t be driving the way he was.

Here it is:

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25361

So that's a "no", you aren't claiming that all of these transmissions broke due to abuse.

[TheNiche]

Ummm, you don't do clutch dumps at 6k-8k RPM 20 times in a row, you don't even do it 5 times in a row. The heat that generates will cause something to break. How come you and meme can't seem to grasp that ?

What if I did just one clutch dump at 6k-8k RPM each day? Is that abuse? What if it's every other day? What if it's once a week? Once a month? Just once? What if I'm only an aggressive driver?

I only want clarity as to how much leeway I have to use the vehicle as it was intended rather than as a typical everyday commuter car. I really don't think that that should be too much to ask for.

Look at it this way, there is no warranty from the factory on NASCARs or NHRA cars is there. If you wish to drive your street car as such, then expect to pay for that privledge, at your own risk. Keeping in mind that even NASCARs breakdown because of friction and heat, NHRA car's engines are broken down after EVERY run and parts replaced to try and insure no breakage on the next run, because of the heat and friction those cars generate. 10 to 20 clutch dumps at 6k-8k RPMs WILL destroy your car, and that is abuse.

If I buy an $80k performance vehicle, I don't want to drive the car like I'm in a NASCAR race. The maintenance of that is expensive (even before warranty-voided repairs) and the experience of going around and around a track is boring. I'm going to want to accelerate chicks from 0 to 60 in 3.4 seconds. Never mind that they have no concept of automotive engineering, if I'm going to buy an $80k performance vehicle, I'm going to be so delusional as to think that it'll impress chicks because the salesman told me it would...when in fact--had I any grasp of reality--I could've bought a used recent-year Boxster for nearly a quarter of that amount and just impressed her with the brand, which is about the one thing that most chicks actually know about cars.

But even if I were so pathetic and delusional, I'm going to want to know how many chicks I get to launch per month before I void my warranty.

If you buy a greyhound as a pet and continuously make it run on a treadmill at 30 mph for 1 minute at a time with a 2 minute break in between intervals for 1 hr. Then the dog dies of a heartattack, you gonna try to take it back to the breeder under warranty ?

If I were so stupid to have done this in the first place, then yes I'd probably also be so stupid as to try to get my money back. But if I were that much of a jerkwad, then I'd probably also lie, knowing that the greyhound lacks an onboard computer. Wishing to avoid the expense of legal action, he would probably settle out of court for some significant amount.

Your examples don't really seem to be painting me as a very bright guy. Stop insulting me and just agree that specificity in warranties is preferable, dammit.

[musicman]

What if I did just one clutch dump at 6k-8k RPM each day? Is that abuse? What if it's every other day? What if it's once a week? Once a month? Just once? What if I'm only an aggressive driver?

spoken like a true wannabe.

I only want clarity as to how much leeway I have to use the vehicle as it was intended rather than as a typical everyday commuter car. I really don't think that that should be too much to ask for.

spoken like a true wannabe.

If I buy an $80k performance vehicle, I don't want to drive the car like I'm in a NASCAR race. The maintenance of that is expensive (even before warranty-voided repairs) and the experience of going around and around a track is boring. I'm going to want to accelerate chicks from 0 to 60 in 3.4 seconds. Never mind that they have no concept of automotive engineering, if I'm going to buy an $80k performance vehicle, I'm going to be so delusional as to think that it'll impress chicks because the salesman told me it would...when in fact--had I any grasp of reality--I could've bought a used recent-year Boxster for nearly a quarter of that amount and just impressed her with the brand, which is about the one thing that most chicks actually know about cars.

spoken like a true wannabe.

But even if I were so pathetic and delusional, I'm going to want to know how many chicks I get to launch per month before I void my warranty.

If were so stupid to have done this in the first place, then yes I'd probably also be so stupid as to try to get my money back. But if I were that much of a jerkwad, then I'd probably also lie, knowing that the greyhound lacks an onboard computer. Wishing to avoid the expense of legal action, he would probably settle out of court for some significant amount.

spoken like a true wannabe.

Your examples don't really seem to be painting me as a very bright guy. Stop insulting me and just agree that specificity in warranties is preferable, dammit.

spoken like a true wannabe.

[TheNiche]

spoken like a true wannabe.

What is it that you believe I want to be?

Honestly, it doesn't matter whether I'm buying a Nissan GT-R or a Honda Civic. I want to know what are the exact limitations of the warranty, and it really does piss me off that I can't get a straight answer from anyone.

[musicman]

What is it that you believe I want to be?

a wannabe who wants to accelerate chicks

[TheNiche]

a wannabe who wants to accelerate chicks

I can only wonder what your BAC is right now.

You missed the point a little. This really has a lot more to do with TJ having tried to play down my concerns by arguing that my rationale is akin to doing stupid things (illustrated from the absurd scenarios) and also that he missed the point of my concerns, which have nothing to do with racing, or any particular desire to "abuse" a vehicle because I can...and everything to do with my concern that a car company may not honor a warranty on terms I would consider reasonable but that they don't.

EDIT: As a total and complete disclaimer, I really don't want anything in particular to do with a 'chick' that is impressed by a car. They're way too damned annoying. Not worth the hassle or expense.

[musicman]

tj keep workin niche. he wants it.

[SkyEye]

My work is done...

[TheNiche]

tj keep workin niche. he wants it.

For $30k or less, I'd give it consideration.

But going back to where I jumped in, I really only was interested in discussing ambiguities regarding warranties. That's still true.

[Jeebus]

TJ, you're getting flame baited. Just walk away. Besides, you can't help that you're selling an overpriced import whose price-tag has been set solely on years of youtube videos, import/tuner mags, and JDM blog/forum hype.

[TJones]

My work is done...

The problem is.....you never got started.

Niche, If you are so smart as to know how NOT to treat Greyhound respectively, then you should know how NOT to treat the transmission on your GT-R, given you had enough sense to read your owner's manual like you were instructed to. Considering your offer Niche, looks like you need to be looking at the Versa instead, I don't know that it is possible for you to blow up the tranny on that one, so you would have no concerns.

If you read the link I provided about the dumbass who claims to have the tranny problem, he ADMITS he knew he was driving it WRONG. Apparently he had the "clarity" to know that even before he decided to become John Force in his GT-R.

Meme, there is nothing poorly made with these cars, just poor drivers, and poor saps that believe rumors on the internet. So far, I have only seen proof of one, ONE guy who blew a transmission, and he admits to doing it, because of his poor driving habits. End of story.

So Jeebus, using your rationale, is the Corvette Z06 an overpirced Domestic, given all he youtube,Hot Rod, Motor Trend, forum hype over the years ?

[jgriff]

10 to 20 clutch dumps at 6k-8k RPMs WILL destroy your car, and that is abuse.

This contreversy is not about doing clutch dumps a 8k rpm. This is about using launch control too many times. This car has a DSG transmission. It's not like a standard. If it's dumping the clutch at 8k rpm that's the car's fault. Launch control is supposed to shift the car correctly.

You are correct about abuse not being covered under the warranty though. I bought a 2006 Porsche 911 used and had to replace the clutch at 20k miles due to abuse by the previous owner. It cost $2k. You can destroy a brand new clutch in a standard transmission car in a few minutes if you don't drive it right. You should not be able to do that in a DSG car like the GT-R though.

[Jeebus]

So Jeebus, using your rationale, is the Corvette Z06 an overpirced Domestic, given all he youtube,Hot Rod, Motor Trend, forum hype over the years ?

That all depends. Corvette was around before there was viral forms of hype. The Corvette's ability earns its price tag, as well as having been around long enough domestically to earn its price tag based on things such as performance, demand, and value.

People have been foaming at the mouth for Nissan to sell the Skyline domestically for over 20 years. Instead, they cancel the Skyline, create the GTR, then let those same American's foam at the mouth for 2 more years while the Japanese get to drive them. Then when demand is at an all time high for this newly badged car, they sell it domestically.

This would be no different if GM did this to another country over the Corvette. However, between Italian, German, and even Japanese engineering - I can't realistically see any car enthusiast group from another country going "ga-ga" over the Corvette.

Like I said TJ, it's not your fault. Nissan set the price - not you.

[TJones]

This contreversy is not about doing clutch dumps a 8k rpm. This is about using launch control too many times. This car has a DSG transmission. It's not like a standard. If it's dumping the clutch at 8k rpm that's the car's fault. Launch control is supposed to shift the car correctly.

You are correct about abuse not being covered under the warranty though. I bought a 2006 Porsche 911 used and had to replace the clutch at 20k miles due to abuse by the previous owner. It cost $2k. You can destroy a brand new clutch in a standard transmission car in a few minutes if you don't drive it right. You should not be able to do that in a DSG car like the GT-R though.

Griff, there are Dual-clutches in the paddleshift automatic. If you turn the VDC off though, which is the case here, and drive it in manual shift mode like you are at Laguna Seca, well.... It is not a DSG, it is a 6-speed dual clutch transmission with 3 driver selectable modes. The VDC off switch is ONLY for getting the car out of mud or slushy snow when it is stuck. It is not engineered for using it to always have the extra torque to the wheels, and the Owner's manual explains it in about 4 different sections.

[jgriff]

Griff, there are Dual-clutches in the paddleshift automatic. If you turn the VDC off though, which is the case here, and drive it in manual shift mode, It is not a DSG, it is a 6-speed dual clutch transmission with 3 driver selectable modes. The VDC off swich is ONLY for getting the car out of mud or slushy snow when it is stuck. It is not engineered for using it to always have the extra torque to the wheels,a nd the Owner's manual explains it in about 4 different sections.

I know there are dual clutch transmissions and paddle shifted automatics. The GTR is a dual clutch. The car is still shifting for you in a dual clutch. You don't have a clutch pedal in a GTR. It's still a DSG no matter what mode you drive it in. In manual shift mode you are selecting geears and the car is shifting for you. I think the "it's not engineered to have the extra torque to the wheels" says it all. If the car can't handle the feature don't put it on the car.

[TJones]

I know there are dual clutch transmissions and paddle shifted automatics. The GTR is a dual clutch. The car is still shifting for you in a dual clutch. You don't have a clutch pedal in a GTR. It's still a DSG no matter what mode you drive it in. In manual shift mode you are selecting geears and the car is shifting for you. I think the "it's not engineered to have the extra torque to the wheels" says it all. If the car can't handle the feature don't put it on the car.

How you gonna stand a chance to get out of the mud, when you are stranded in BFE without a cell signal ? Try not to misquote me though, would ya. If you would have read it correctly, you would be able to see it is NOT a feature of the car. Nowhere does it say you can drive the GT-R with the VDC off at all times. Typical hater.

[memebag]

If you are only supposed to turn the VDC off when stuck in the mud, why do you have to turn it off to use the launch control? And if you aren't supposed to use the launch control, why did they build it with launch control??

[TJones]

If you are only supposed to turn the VDC off when stuck in the mud, why do you have to turn it off to use the launch control? And if you aren't supposed to use the launch control, why did they build it with launch control??

Just for the record, what do you think "Launch Control" is, exactly ?

[memebag]

Just for the record, what do you think "Launch Control" is, exactly ?

"... an electronic setting on many modern sports sedans and coupes that let the driver take off from the line at a certain high speed without the wheels spinning much." (from Wikipedia)

Why do you ask?

[jm1fd]

Using a feature that the car came with is not abuse.....espescially when the car is largely controlling its own behavior when said feature is engaged. To say otherwise would be akin to telling someone that they broke their A/C because they ran it on MAX while it was really hot outside.

If there is a heat buildup issue (doesn't appear to be the case from pictures of gearboxes that I've seen) when using launch control multiple times then the car should disable the feature until the heat dissipates.

[memebag]

Also, Nissan has announced that they will remove the launch control feature from the 2010 model. That sure sounds like an admission that the transmission can't handle this feature.

[SkyEye]

From Edmund's Inside Line Nov. 20, 2008

With the Internet bursting with ugly tales of GT-R launch control abuse, broken transaxles and void warranties, a nasty rumor began; that the 2010 Nissan GT-R won't have launch control.

Could it be? Really?

So we asked and asked and asked. We asked three Nissan employees: one from the public relations department, one from engineering and one high-ranking executive. The first two confirmed its removal was being considered seriously, but the decision had not yet been made. Then the high-ranking executive confirmed the bad news.

"It's gone," he said when asked if launch control would return in 2010. "We just don't want to deal with the warranty nightmare anymore. It'll make the 2009 GT-R really special. It'll be the only R35 with launch control." -- Kelly Toepke, News Editor

Looks like they realized that they had a liabilty problem, now if TJ can accept reality......