Walmart Going Wind

[editor]

According to a note at the bottom of CoStar's news wrap-up page, a new wind farm being built in Notrees (near Odessa) will supply 15% of the electricity Wal-Mart stores and distribution centers use in Texas.

[tanith27]

Wal-mart breaks wind.

hmmm. Sounds catchy to me.

[barracuda]

100% would be better, but every bit helps. If they could follow Whole Food's lead, and offset all of their power consumption with renewable energy, it'd be pretty significant.

It's interesting that Walmart is getting serious about improving their public image. The 'low price no matter what the cost' mentality has cost a lot of American jobs, destroyed small towns and mom-and-pop business across America, and traded environmental and OSHA regulated American facilitates for Chinese factories where such standards are lax or non-existent. And unfortunately, it seems that most consumers are too seduced by low prices to give thought about the consequences of said low price.

I hope they'll keep working on improving environmental and working standards and do more to support local businesses.

[TexasVines]

100% would be better, but every bit helps. If they could follow Whole Food's lead, and offset all of their power consumption with renewable energy, it'd be pretty significant.

It's interesting that Walmart is getting serious about improving their public image. The 'low price no matter what the cost' mentality has cost a lot of American jobs, destroyed small towns and mom-and-pop business across America, and traded environmental and OSHA regulated American facilitates for Chinese factories where such standards are lax or non-existent. And unfortunately, it seems that most consumers are too seduced by low prices to give thought about the consequences of said low price.

I hope they'll keep working on improving environmental and working standards and do more to support local businesses.

whole foods is not 100% renewable no matter what they try and tell people....wind does not blow all the time and the sun doesn't shine all the time so there is "back up" and peek power being used......saying you are 100% renewable without extremely expensive and complex storage systems on site and generation on site is a 100% lie and more disingenuous than your other comments about walmart

[Original Timmy Chan's]

wind does not blow all the time and the sun doesn't shine all the time...

Obviously you've never been to Notrees!!!

It's the most aptly-named town in America!

[TexasVines]

Obviously you've never been to Notrees!!!

It's the most aptly-named town in America!

actually I have....and there are nearly no trees

but even then the sun goes down and the wind stops occasionally and or more likely it blows too hard for turbines to run

[TheNiche]

whole foods is not 100% renewable no matter what they try and tell people....wind does not blow all the time and the sun doesn't shine all the time so there is "back up" and peek power being used......saying you are 100% renewable without extremely expensive and complex storage systems on site and generation on site is a 100% lie and more disingenuous than your other comments about walmart

I don't really give a crap about what I believe are the realistic implications of global warming, myself, but you've totally missed the point. The same way that pundits miss the point when they mock Al Gore for having a huge house and a jet even though he buys carbon offsets.

For christ's sake, why is it so frickin' impossible for Americans to have a sane dialogue about environmental policy!?

[TexasVines]

I don't really give a crap about what I believe are the realistic implications of global warming, myself, but you've totally missed the point. The same way that pundits miss the point when they mock Al Gore for having a huge house and a jet even though he buys carbon offsets.

For christ's sake, why is it so frickin' impossible for Americans to have a sane dialogue about environmental policy!?

you are the one that has totally missed the point just like algore

this country can not rely on 100% wind or solar power without complex storage schemes that are not in place at this time......with the current electrical grid Whole Foods stores are probably spread over all 10 different interconnects in the USA and Walmarts just in Texas will be spread over ERCOT, SPP, WSCC, and possibly SERC.....these different interconnects don't share power across one another very often if at all and there is almost no sharing if not ANY sharing between ERCOT, the Western Interconnect and the Eastern Interconnect....so for whole foods to go to a few wind and solar farms and buy some power credits does not actually mean that power plants in the areas where the stores are located will not be built and or run.....and since wind does not blow 100% and sun does not shine 100% there will always be baseline power generated by traditional plants....and as demand for energy goes up even with green offsets from wind and solar there will be increased demand for baseline power from traditional plants until such time as storage schemes are developed to store energy when the sun shines and the wind blows for use when the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow

it is the same as algore and his green credits.....instead of algore himself investing in solar or other green energy for his house he bribes someone else to do it.....which would be all find and good if #1 algore was not wasting so much himself with a large house that just he and his wife do not need #2 with 3 massive computer monitors and a big screen TV going at the same time #3 with his use of private jets to fly all around the globe...and #4 and most important one day algore will run out of people to pay to take up for his slacking and then he will still be there wasting power

if half the USA pays the other half of the USA to not waste energy and fly on private planes that does not mean the one half is not wasting energy it just means they and their supporters are childish enough and nieve enough to think that because you payed off someone else not to waste that you are not wasting when nothing is further from the truth

if 100 units of energy are needed and algore is wasting 10 of them on a large house and private planes and another company is using 90 of them to create a product and algore pays that company to build 10 units of "clean energy" production.....perhaps in your mind that means that algore has offset his waste, but to me it just means algore has offset his guilt about his waste and since in the case of electricity more than likely algore will be wasting his energy at the same time the company he has paid to "offset" is using theirs for production....and this will not coincide 100% of the time with when green energy is up and running there is a strong chance that algore really only paid to offset about 1/3 of his actual waste or 3 units while he pats himself on his back for all 10

you can pay everyone in the world to not drive and not fly and then when you get on a private jet and fly around the world to tell everyone how wasteful they are and how great a person you are.....the fuel you used is not coming back period....it was wasted by some clown that think he does not stink when he and his lectures to the rest of us stink more than anything....the fuel is gone it is used up and it was WASTED by a selfish idiot that is full of BS no matter what he bribed someone else to do

and as for electricity since it is finite in nature and is not shared over long distances at this time you can build enough green energy plants for probably 200% of the peek usage on an interconnect and you will still need a great deal of baseline generating power for when the wind does not blow and the sun does not shine especially during peek usage

so while I am happy to see more wind and solar......for a company to claim they are 100% "green" is flat wrong because all they really are is the first company to go out into the market and pay towards what will be a finite amount of power as a % of total usage that can come from green sources with the current transmission and storage of the USA power grid.....so soon if EVERY company out there says they are 100% "green" because they did what whole foods did I think a lot of wholefools will be shocked that we still have so many conventional power plants up and running....if we went out and replaced the algore mansion with the teddy kazanski shack and then let a couple of welfare families of 5 move into the algore mansion then I would give algore credit for anything but lip service

if Whole Foods came into an area and bought out inefficient old stores and remodeled and or replaced them with new efficient stores that cut down on baseline energy use and especially peek use and other stores did not open to replace the ones bought out then there is some real "green" difference making

but just paying others to conserve while you waste like algore does is a joke that only fools can't see through....and while I like Whole Foods just fine and have friends that have done very well working for them...I don't give them credit for being 100% "green energy".... what I currently give them credit for is being the first to help the USA get to the total % saturation point of "green energy" Vs. total energy usage which is better than doing nothing at all, but is not really 100% green because of the complexities and limitations and the realities of the USA grid system, transmission system, energy storage, and peek power usage

I would give Whole Foods and any others much more credit if they invested in methods that allow them to store off peek power for peek times and or to store "at this moment green generation" for times when "green energy" was not being generated

to make it more simple...if a Whole Foods or a walmart needs 100 units of energy for a store and they build a store that is 100% NOT connected to ANY electrical grid and they put 200 units worth of wind generating capacity on the store and 100 units of solar on the store (or 300 units total of green generating capacity) there is still a very good chance (really a 100% chance) that there will be multiple times through out the year that the store does not have enough power to supply its needs....and those times will be on cloudy days with no wind and at night with no wind...and no matter how you mix up that "green generating capacity" between solar and wind there will still be 100% guaranteed times when the store will not have enough power through out the year...and it will probably happen way more often than most people would think especially in the areas where most whole foods and walmarts are located

[TheNiche]

you are the one that has totally missed the point just like algore

this country can not rely on 100% wind or solar power

Let me stop you right there. Nobody suggested that the whole country switch to wind or solar power.

[TexasVines]

Let me stop you right there. Nobody suggested that the whole country switch to wind or solar power.

but buying into the idea that one company is "100% green" when they rely on the baseline plants and the grid just as much as anyone is 100% false

to say no one is suggesting the country go 100% solar or wind while giving credit to one company for going "100% green" based on wind and solar is missing 100% of the point....I think you know this or just realized this which is why "you had to stop right there"

[RedScare]

For christ's sake, why is it so frickin' impossible for Americans to have a sane dialogue about environmental policy!?

I believe it is a combination of reasons, beginning with the fact that certain talk show hosts politicize what should in reality be a politics neutral discussion. Liteners of said talk show hosts tend to march in lockstep with that hosts ideology. A second reason is the built-in cynicism of many today. It is much easier to bash new technology than to inquire about it. Add the new American pasttime of bragging about our ignorance, and a scientist or engineer with a potential new technology is going to get trashed.

On the other side, some greens are also anti-globalization and even anti-business. Their "green" agenda is actually a disguise of their anti-corporate agenda. Green strategies only appeal to them if it hurts business. Therefore, a strategy of wind and solar, with peak/backup nuclear, is not attractive, as nuclear power is big business.

[TheNiche]

but buying into the idea that one company is "100% green" when they rely on the baseline plants and the grid just as much as anyone is 100% false

to say no one is suggesting the country go 100% solar or wind while giving credit to one company for going "100% green" based on wind and solar is missing 100% of the point....I think you know this or just realized this which is why "you had to stop right there"

No. I told you to stop right there because you were wasting your time.

At this stage in the game, an individual company such as Wal-Mart can go 100% green. For every megawatt hour utilized, they can fund green power producers to produce those megawatts as green megawatts.

If Wal-Mart used 1% of this country's electricity and wanted to convert 1% of all megawatts produced to 'green' megawatts, they can do that. No matter what they do, electricity on the grid is all the same, and it comes from both green and non-green sources; however for all intents and purposes they can completely mitigate their marginal impact on the environment as a result of electricity use.

The situation would be different if Wal-Mart consumed 80% of the nation's power, but they don't. The circumstances you describe do not apply.

It is people like yourself that rant and rave incoherently that are the undoing of people that agree with you on the basic principles...like me. ____ off.

[TexasVines]

No. I told you to stop right there because you were wasting your time.

At this stage in the game, an individual company such as Wal-Mart can go 100% green. For every megawatt hour utilized, they can fund green power producers to produce those megawatts as green megawatts.

If Wal-Mart used 1% of this country's electricity and wanted to convert 1% of all megawatts produced to 'green' megawatts, they can do that. No matter what they do, electricity on the grid is all the same, and it comes from both green and non-green sources; however for all intents and purposes they can completely mitigate their marginal impact on the environment as a result of electricity use.

The situation would be different if Wal-Mart consumed 80% of the nation's power, but they don't. The circumstances you describe do not apply.

It is people like yourself that rant and rave incoherently that are the undoing of people that agree with you on the basic principles...like me. ____ off.

actually there are many things they can do....they can implement super chilled liquid storage in the ground below their stores or parking lots to store energy off peek (or when their green energy is producing) to then cool their buildings and coolers and walkins on peek...and they could put enough solar or wind on the roof to power it enough to store for off peek and when the sun is down and the air is calm

if they are large enough like Whole Foods or Walmart they can invest in storage technologies like pumped hydro to store off peek and "this minute" green energy for use on peek or when green is not generating

these same large users can also invest in non-photovoltaic solar like solar heat towers that have the ability to hold the heated liquid long enough and at a high enough temperature so that it can still provide energy through the night

but it is easier for them to toss some money at wind and photovoltaic solar and then make false claims because most of the sheep and algore worshipers will believe it and follow right along....I like wind and I like photovoltaic solar, but I also like companies that "talk" alot about all their ideals like Whole Foods to actually be truthful and honest about what they are really doing....pretending to be "cutting edge" and on the fore front when all you are really doing is paying money towards something that was probably going to be built anyway (because it made economic sense) is not the worst thing to do, but it is less impressive to me whan you over hype it and outright lie about it

[editor]

In this thread and another you talk at length about peak energy demand. It would help your credibility if you learned how to spell it.

That said, you have many theories that don't hold up in the real world. "They can implement super chilled liquid storage in the ground below their stores or parking lots" sounds good, but how does it hold up in a cost/benefit analysis? I'd like to hear how the ideas you propose would affect the price of goods paid at the store and affect the company's long-term viability.

[RedScare]

In this thread and another you talk at length about peak energy demand. It would help your credibility if you learned how to spell it.

That said, you have many theories that don't hold up in the real world. "They can implement super chilled liquid storage in the ground below their stores or parking lots" sounds good, but how does it hold up in a cost/benefit analysis? I'd like to hear how the ideas you propose would affect the price of goods paid at the store and affect the company's long-term viability.

After TV is done with the cost/benefit analysis of super chilled liquid storage, perhaps he could explain to us sheep why peak energy demand is a deal killer for wind and solar. Why is an energy source unusable unless it can provide 100% of our energy needs, especially in light of the fact that currently no energy source contributes 100% of our energy needs? If wind, nuclear and solar provide a percentage of base energy production, and coal and/or natural gas provide for peak or backup energy usage, what is wrong with that? Is a reduction in greenhouse gasses not good enough? Since when has the equation become all or nothing?

[TexasVines]

In this thread and another you talk at length about peak energy demand. It would help your credibility if you learned how to spell it.

That said, you have many theories that don't hold up in the real world. "They can implement super chilled liquid storage in the ground below their stores or parking lots" sounds good, but how does it hold up in a cost/benefit analysis? I'd like to hear how the ideas you propose would affect the price of goods paid at the store and affect the company's long-term viability.

Whole Foods charges a premium for most of their products....most of the things they market like organic ect. don't hold up well when looked at from a reality perspective....there is not a chance in hell in todays agriculture reality that organic could come close to feeding what conventional ag does....but that does not stop whole foods from blabbing endlessly about it and other concepts that don't hold up to reality like bashing "factory farms"

Whole Foods markets their "100% green" with the idea that they are going the extra mile....are you really trying to tell me it is nothing more than just that "marketing" and or it is something they do to actually save cost or something they will not do if they have to pay any extra.....again that makes it sound like nothing but hype!

Whole Foods does not talk on and on about cost benefit analysis (of organic non-factory farms ect.), price, or long tern viability (other than their environmental talk).....so why do they suddenly get a pass on energy use?

you make it sound like the "100% green" is just really hype with a business marketing aspect really behind it VS. what they sell it as

[TexasVines]

After TV is done with the cost/benefit analysis of super chilled liquid storage, perhaps he could explain to us sheep why peak energy demand is a deal killer for wind and solar. Why is an energy source unusable unless it can provide 100% of our energy needs, especially in light of the fact that currently no energy source contributes 100% of our energy needs? If wind, nuclear and solar provide a percentage of base energy production, and coal and/or natural gas provide for peak or backup energy usage, what is wrong with that? Is a reduction in greenhouse gasses not good enough? Since when has the equation become all or nothing?

since algore and his sheep told us the world was about to end last week....yet he still climbs on a private plane every chance he gets

peak energy demand is not the only deal killer for wind and solar the mian issue with them is that you do not know if and when the power will be available and at what rate it will be available

I have no issue with nuclear, coal (clean or dirty), natural gas, biomass, or any other form of energy as long as it is provided at a competitive cost....there is nothing wrong with coal or any other form of baseline power.....until algore and his supporters come out and tell us the world is about to end and obongo says he is going to bankrupt coal entirely....please tell me both of those fools did not make those statements....and the kind of sheep that follow those two fools are the kind that also buy into "100% green" from companies like Whole Foods....so which is it....is the world about end, coal needs to be bankrupted, and 100% green is the only way....or is it all really just marking hype, babble to idiot sheep, and half truths and lies.....or is it something that the fools that buy into it are really willing to put their money behind.....it sounds like you are telling me what I already knew that algore is a hypocritical fool...obongo is an idiot when it comes to running his mouth about energy....and people that shop at Whole Foods really only "care" if it only cost a few more cents on the grocery bill each week

[RedScare]

since algore and his sheep told us the world was about to end last week....yet he still climbs on a private plane every chance he gets

peak energy demand is not the only deal killer for wind and solar the mian issue with them is that you do not know if and when the power will be available and at what rate it will be available

I have no issue with nuclear, coal (clean or dirty), natural gas, biomass, or any other form of energy as long as it is provided at a competitive cost....there is nothing wrong with coal or any other form of baseline power.....until algore and his supporters come out and tell us the world is about to end and obongo says he is going to bankrupt coal entirely....please tell me both of those fools did not make those statements....and the kind of sheep that follow those two fools are the kind that also buy into "100% green" from companies like Whole Foods....so which is it....is the world about end, coal needs to be bankrupted, and 100% green is the only way....or is it all really just marking hype, babble to idiot sheep, and half truths and lies.....or is it something that the fools that buy into it are really willing to put their money behind.....it sounds like you are telling me what I already knew that algore is a hypocritical fool...obongo is an idiot when it comes to running his mouth about energy....and people that shop at Whole Foods really only "care" if it only cost a few more cents on the grocery bill each week

So, you decide whether an energy source is viable or not based on whether a politician who supports it is a member of your political party or not? In that case, you are far worse than Mr. Gore or any of his sheep. Apparently, you cannot engage in a discussion about energy without bringing up politics and cute misspellings of politician names...yet you call others idiots and sheep. I won't go so far as to call you an idiot, but cute misspellings of people's names is not something I ever saw Einstein engage in.

[TexasVines]

So, you decide whether an energy source is viable or not based on whether a politician who supports it is a member of your political party or not? In that case, you are far worse than Mr. Gore or any of his sheep. Apparently, you cannot engage in a discussion about energy without bringing up politics and cute misspellings of politician names...yet you call others idiots and sheep. I won't go so far as to call you an idiot, but cute misspellings of people's names is not something I ever saw Einstein engage in.

I never claimed wind and solar were not viable.....I decide if a company like Whole Foods and the many people that fall in line with most of the garbage they spew are correct or not based on the facts.....the facts is as I stated before Whole Foods is not 100% "green energy" and the facts are that algore is a hypocrite and full of BS

sitting around allowing companies like Whle Foods to lie about being 100% green is not part of the solution especially when many of the clowns that fall in line with many of the garbage ideas they spew support fools like algore and obongo

perhaps if Whole Foods was called out and their sheep shoppers knew the truth we could get past listening to clowns like algore and get on to really solving the issues....but as long as dolts are allowed to think "they are 100% green" while the rest of us are terrible for shopping at all the non-green factory farm stores "when it just cost a bit more" to be so "caring" we will never solve anything

I am saying we need to make Whole Foods stand up to what they claim that they can be 100% green energy no matter what the cost....and we need to make those that blab about organic and bad mouth "factory farms" pay the real cost of their hot air.....then when we see Whole Foods go broke and we see people that blab about organic and free range go hungry and or spend a massive amount of their income on food we can figure out their full of BS and we can get on to solving real issues

as long as people like algore and his supporters blab endlessly yet when "cost" is brought up suddenly we need a cost benefit analysis we will solve nothing.....obongo seems to care nothing about what his carbon credit plans and his bankrupting of coal will cost anyone because "it is worth it" to him and his supporters.....and I am saying lets see if that is really the case starting with places like Whole Foods so we can watch them go under before the rest of us do...i prefer to see the people that are making the false claims and the lies suffer first so the rest of us can learn from and laugh at their ignorance before it drags us all down

the best way to do that is make Whole Foods and those like them live up their claims....and then when they go under and or their customers go under the rest of us will not have to suffer their ignorance

just blindly excepting others bunk science and false marketing (based on vilifying others and setting themselves apart as the ones that care) is not acceptable to me....I prefer to tell them to put up or shut up....when algore lives in a shack I might listen to him....when people that shop at Whole Foods spend a large portion of their income, or a great deal more each week, on food I might listen to them

until them I will know they are full of BS and I will mock them and call them out....because it is just like you ask....really about the cost benefit analysis and "what more will I have to pay"......well i don't care what more they have to pay or if the stores go broke....because I want then to back up what they blab endlessly about

preferably before the "end of the world" comes

[RedScare]

A very long post that essentially says, "RedScare is correct".

Such a shame, too. I would have enjoyed discussing the merits of wind, nuclear, hydro and solar energy.

[crunchtastic]

A very long post that essentially says, "RedScare is correct".

Such a shame, too. I would have enjoyed discussing the merits of wind, nuclear, hydro and solar energy.

This is a topic I plan to educate myself about in 09. I still have misgivings about nuclear (waste, specifically) that some tell me are unfounded, others mock me for conjuring bad sci fi.

[TexasVines]

A very long post that essentially says, "RedScare is correct".

Such a shame, too. I would have enjoyed discussing the merits of wind, nuclear, hydro and solar energy.

you are not correct....because just as I said before Whole Foods is not 100% green energy they are very far from 100% green in their energy use.....I see nothing in my post anywhere that says wind and solar are not viable.....what I see is where I said Whole Foods is not 100% green and you claimed "I missed the point"

if the point is for ignorant customers to walk out of a store kidding themselves that their grocery bill is only a few dollars more at one store that is "100% green energy" VS another store that is not then the point is to gain support for ignorant half truths through lies....and I want no part of that

my point is that I want these customers of Whole Foods to walk out of the store looking at their grocery bill and seeing 100% of the TRUE ACTUAL COST to be "100% TRUELY renewable" every second, of every minute, of every hour, of every day so that we can all see if they really believe in it or not...then I want them to see the cost of 100% organic....and 100% free range....and 100% non-factory farm...and 100% livable wages....then when their grocery bill is hundreds of dollars more a month want to see their reaction

just like I want to see algore make his house 100% renewable VS buying "offsets" so that someone in Indonesia can stay living in a shack with no power while algore lives in a mansion.....and I want to see algore sell 100% of his Oxy stock.....and I want to see algore invest in green carbon neutral technologies VS TV stations....and then when algores dumbass is broke I want to see the stupid look on his face

I am not sure how in the world you think you are correct when it is a fact that Whole Foods is not using 100% renewable energy and that is all I have ever claimed that you said I missed the point about....when my point is I want to see them make the real investment VS making the false claims....then I want to see their customers stand behind that investment and pay the ACTUAL REAL PRICE of it before I listen to their BS about bankrupting coal from obongo and I listen to the idiot biden say no more coal plants and I hear algore say the world is coming to an end....because if people really had to pay the actual prices of what these morons blab I think most of them would be marginalized to the looney bin where they belong instead of getting noble prizes and being elected..as soon as people see the actual cost of what their "leaders" spew VS the actual cost of a half truth I think we can all get back to the reality of the debate VS people thinking they are shopping at a store with 100% renewable energy for a few dollars more a week when the reality is that store gets its power just like every other store

so other than being wrong about me not understanding that Whole Foods is not 100% renewable please tell me what you were "right" about

[RedScare]

I am correct that you cannot have a reasonable discussion about renewable energy without going political...and your last 2 posts prove me correct again. It was TheNiche who said you missed the point, and he was correct, also.

[TexasVines]

I am correct that you cannot have a reasonable discussion about renewable energy without going political...and your last 2 posts prove me correct again. It was TheNiche who said you missed the point, and he was correct, also.

it is nearly impossible to have a discussion about any type of energy without politics because energy is the number one political issue today

and please expalin how he (you) was correct when it is a 100% fact that Whole Foods is not 100% renewable energy and the only reason they claim to be and get away with it is because most of their customers are fools and have no clue about energy of any form

and everyone on the forum has figured out that RedScare and TheNiche are the same person posting from a PC on a wired ISP and a laptop on wireless or through a proxy on one and not the other

you could be siamese twins, but I don't think so

[barracuda]

whole foods is not 100% renewable no matter what they try and tell people....wind does not blow all the time and the sun doesn't shine all the time so there is "back up" and peek power being used......saying you are 100% renewable without extremely expensive and complex storage systems on site and generation on site is a 100% lie and more disingenuous than your other comments about walmart

You seem to be missing the point. Whole Foods is using wind energy to offset its electrical usage. The company can't buy electricity directly from wind generators, but the offsets will feed into the general power grid to offset Whole Food's overall power consumption. It doesn't seem feasible for a retailer to build "extremely expensive complex storage systems on site" simply so they can make a bolder claim. I don't see what is disingenuous about offsets.

[TheNiche]

it is nearly impossible to have a discussion about any type of energy without politics because energy is the number one political issue today

Crude prices are down two thirds. Gasoline is down by half. Energy prices are last week's hot button news item.

and everyone on the forum has figured out that RedScare and TheNiche are the same person posting from a PC on a wired ISP and a laptop on wireless or through a proxy on one and not the other

you could be siamese twins, but I don't think so

Dammit! You caught me (and me).

Red and I are in fact a single space monster from the 17th dimension which are connected by a retractable neural tether slightly out of phase with your dimension, puny Hu-man. You have stumbled onto our evil plan to infiltrate TheHAIF and learn all there is to know about the Wal-Mart wind energy plan! However you keep talking about Whole Foods! Pathetic Hu-man, get back on topic or we shall phase-shift a micro-black-hole into your coordinates and destroy you. Mwahahaha!

[TexasVines]

You seem to be missing the point. Whole Foods is using wind energy to offset its electrical usage. The company can't buy electricity directly from wind generators, but the offsets will feed into the general power grid to offset Whole Food's overall power consumption. It doesn't seem feasible for a retailer to build "extremely expensive complex storage systems on site" simply so they can make a bolder claim. I don't see what is disingenuous about offsets.

right now everyone is using wind to offset electrical power.....because when the wind blows the baseline plants are throttled back and the wind power is put on the grid and that wind power on the grid does not magically find only Whole Foods stores it finds everyone on that grid...and when the wind does not blow there is no magic supply of wind that still only goes to Whole Foods the Whole Foods energy comes from the baseline conventional plants just like everyones power...wind power is being built because that is the best option for the producers of energy not because Whole foods demands it

there is also nothing cost prohibitive about ground source loops for any large retailer since the parking area is available for the wells and or the loops and people and businesses all over the USA are already installing it.....but some places don't no matter how much they "talk green"

if Whole Foods wanted to live up to what they and many of their customers talk the talk about then they would invest in on site and or off site storage mechanisms without consideration for cost because "saving the world from total destruction" and "the environment" should really be about more than marketing and dollars right?

[N Judah]

So what you're saying is that offsets just make energy cheaper overall, and more importantly don't actually *replace* environmentally-unfriendly methods of energy production. I think that makes sense. So the pollution level stays the same but we just have a bunch of extra wind farms somewhere.

[20thStDad]

Someone needs to invent a keyboard that uses the energy from your strokes to feed back to the grid. Then TexasVines and his verbose posts could power a single Wal-Mart (or Whole Foods, whichever he prefers) and no one will have to debate the greenitude of anything. But then he would stop typing and it would lose power, so it's kind of a catch-22.

[editor]

Whole Foods charges a premium for most of their products....most of the things they market like organic ect. don't hold up well when looked at from a reality perspective....there is not a chance in hell in todays agriculture reality that organic could come close to feeding what conventional ag does....but that does not stop whole foods from blabbing endlessly about it and other concepts that don't hold up to reality like bashing "factory farms"

Whole Foods markets their "100% green" with the idea that they are going the extra mile....are you really trying to tell me it is nothing more than just that "marketing" and or it is something they do to actually save cost or something they will not do if they have to pay any extra.....again that makes it sound like nothing but hype!

Off topic. If you want to rant, open a blog. They're free. Click here. If you want to discuss the topic at hand, please do so.

there is also nothing cost prohibitive about ground source loops for any large retailer since the parking area is available for the wells and or the loops and people and businesses all over the USA are already installing it.....but some places don't no matter how much they "talk green"

How much does it cost? This was asked above and you haven't answered it. You assert your suggestions are not cost prohibitive, which means that you know how much they cost. So, tell us how much it would cost to retrofit the average megamart.