Bringing new life to San Antonio's East Side

[editor]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/real_...e/34483019.html

Like many cities, San Antonio is learning that maybe plowing a freeway through its urban core was a bad idea. Now people are trying to find ways to work around the community scar that is I-37.

[TheNiche]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/real_...e/34483019.html

Like many cities, San Antonio is learning that maybe plowing a freeway through its urban core was a bad idea. Now people are trying to find ways to work around the community scar that is I-37.

I've got a friend that works at St. Phillips College in that area. Every time I talk to him he's ranting on how much he wants to start up a small retail business in the area, particularly somewhere near the old Fatty's on Commerce.

It could be a really neat area. But then, San Antonio seems like it has quite a few such potentially-neat areas.

[travelguy_73]

I grew up on the north side of SA, but now when I go home I try and spend as much time exploring the inner city as possible. Niche, you are correct that there is so much potential there! Not being an expert on such things, I would guess that SA is still a a decade behind Houston in rediscovering its urban core. There are bits and pieces of gentrification outside the usual urban neighborhoods that were rediscovered long ago, but it doesn't seem like there is all that much. And given the incredible amount of historic (or at least old) housing stock, there seems to be more potential than exists in Houston to buy a cool old house cheap and renovate it.

SA residents generally appear to still be fleeing to the suburbs. Perhaps it has something to do with not having a strong central business district, or perhaps the CBD isn't strong because the northern neighborhoods have been dominant for so long.

[TheNiche]

I grew up on the north side of SA, but now when I go home I try and spend as much time exploring the inner city as possible. Niche, you are correct that there is so much potential there! Not being an expert on such things, I would guess that SA is still a a decade behind Houston in rediscovering its urban core. There are bits and pieces of gentrification outside the usual urban neighborhoods that were rediscovered long ago, but it doesn't seem like there is all that much. And given the incredible amount of historic (or at least old) housing stock, there seems to be more potential than exists in Houston to buy a cool old house cheap and renovate it.

SA residents generally appear to still be fleeing to the suburbs. Perhaps it has something to do with not having a strong central business district, or perhaps the CBD isn't strong because the northern neighborhoods have been dominant for so long.

When he moved to SA over the summer, I used what he referred to as my "ninja real estate tactics" to try and track down an apartment for him downtown. It was a little shocking just how inexpensive the few options are downtown considering how nice much of their downtown is and also that most of the options had little or no vacancy.

It's interesting that you figure that SA is still a decade behind Houston in rediscovering its core. I noted that pricing throughout that city is still pretty much stuck in the 90's. If you can find a good job there, it's a really good deal.

[TexasVines]

this story is just nonsense.....having lived in San Antonio

1. Employment was never the largest focus of downtown a great deal of that was at many of the military bases which by design are NOT downtown

2. downtown SAs main focus has always been tourism which gives most locals little reason to live there

3. I was there just recently and did not make it downtown, but I can't think of a new large office building that has been built downtown in forever

4. most of the new employment activity in SA is at UTSA way up north, Toyota to the south, the closed military bases, the medical area up north, the other private universities, the Southwest Research Center and the Southwest Monkey Farm, or the office parks along I-10 north including USAA so most people would be foolish to live downtown when they can buy in an area much closer to their jobs and not have to put up with all the BS that urban planner babblers think is so neat.....like crime and trashy neighbors

besides the freeway (which hardly cuts off circulation since there is not and never was much "circulation" from east of it into downtown there is also a large set of active railroad tracks that cut the east off from downtown and most people don't enjoy living by them as well.....It gets old hearing the "blame the freeway game" especially from people that were probably not even born when the freeway was built

the major screw up that SA did do was putting the Alamodome across from the freeway, but the freeway had been there LONG before that planning screwup was made and the bigger screw up was not making it hold 70,000 people so they could be in the super bowl rotation especially since without a team of their own SA would be very popular to host that event and the availability nearby of hotel rooms would also help.....anyone with a brain new they were screwing it up when they first planned it, but they barely sold it on the idea it would get SA a football team.....which anyone with a brain also knew would not happen

another screw up was putting the Spurs new arena way up north, but the Spurs wanted it there because that is where the ticket holders live

When I lived there I can't think of one person I knew that had a parent that went downtown to work

this sounds like a bunch of clueless nuevo urban planner babble from people that really have ZERO clue about how SA has grown and what the major employers are in SA and why they are located where they are

[TheNiche]

this story is just nonsense.....having lived in San Antonio

1. Employment was never the largest focus of downtown a great deal of that was at many of the military bases which by design are NOT downtown

2. downtown SAs main focus has always been tourism which gives most locals little reason to live there

3. I was there just recently and did not make it downtown, but I can't think of a new large office building that has been built downtown in forever

4. most of the new employment activity in SA is at UTSA way up north, Toyota to the south, the closed military bases, the medical area up north, the other private universities, the Southwest Research Center and the Southwest Monkey Farm, or the office parks along I-10 north including USAA so most people would be foolish to live downtown when they can buy in an area much closer to their jobs and not have to put up with all the BS that urban planner babblers think is so neat.....like crime and trashy neighbors

19.9% of SA's office space is located downtown. Office vacancy downtown is 10.3%, as compared to 15.1% in the suburbs. 139,740 square feet of new office space is being constructed downtown right now.

Compare that to Dallas, which has 23% vacancy downtown, where only 15.5% of their office space is located downtown, and where there is no new office construction downtown.

SA is a smaller metropolitan area, but it is not structurally very much different from the other major Texas cities.

besides the freeway (which hardly cuts off circulation since there is not and never was much "circulation" from east of it into downtown there is also a large set of active railroad tracks that cut the east off from downtown and most people don't enjoy living by them as well.....It gets old hearing the "blame the freeway game" especially from people that were probably not even born when the freeway was built

I tend to agree that the freeway there had a less disruptive influence than is often thought. It would've been better, IMO if they had aligned it along the tracks and cantilevered over them, but the only real impact would be to a strip of several blocks that would've been on the downtown side instead of the East End side. Not a huge deal. Besides, one of the things I like about SA's downtown is that it actually is so large compared to Dallas or Houston.

When I lived there I can't think of one person I knew that had a parent that went downtown to work

That's not strange at all. I don't have any friends or family that work in downtown Houston. And Houston's downtown is much much larger than Dallas', Atlanta's, or even Los Angeles' downtown. It's the largest employment center basically in the Sunbelt.

this sounds like a bunch of clueless nuevo urban planner babble from people that really have ZERO clue about how SA has grown and what the major employers are in SA and why they are located where they are

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[TexasVines]

I would say SA is much different than other Texas cities....while it is just as old if not older than any other it has only recently (since about 1990) become anything more than a military town and a tourist town

also the reason the office vacancy rate is so low is exactly because downtown was never the major focus of office development....it was the suburbs which is why in slower times its vacancy rate is higher and downtown can not change much.....because not much was added

SA from day one and especially as a modern city had major employment centers far outside the downtown area which the same could not be said for most of the larger cities in Texas

it is the 5 major and several minor military bases that built San Antonio along with their retired personel so there was little if any need for much downtown besides the tourist attractions and most of the military employees lived closer to the bases and most of the retired had no desire to live in a crowded downtown urban setting or they also wanted to be close to the bases

so people in 2008 looking at SA and complaining about sprawl or about freeways cutting off the major urban center don't know anything about how San Antonio grew or came to be for the vast majority of its existance.....because it never had a major urban downtown core as the major employer....in fact it had the exact opposite

[TheNiche]

I would say SA is much different than other Texas cities....while it is just as old if not older than any other it has only recently (since about 1990) become anything more than a military town and a tourist town

also the reason the office vacancy rate is so low is exactly because downtown was never the major focus of office development....it was the suburbs which is why in slower times its vacancy rate is higher and downtown can not change much.....because not much was added

SA from day one and especially as a modern city had major employment centers far outside the downtown area which the same could not be said for most of the larger cities in Texas

it is the 5 major and several minor military bases that built San Antonio along with their retired personel so there was little if any need for much downtown besides the tourist attractions and most of the military employees lived closer to the bases and most of the retired had no desire to live in a crowded downtown urban setting or they also wanted to be close to the bases

so people in 2008 looking at SA and complaining about sprawl or about freeways cutting off the major urban center don't know anything about how San Antonio grew or came to be for the vast majority of its existance.....because it never had a major urban downtown core as the major employer....in fact it had the exact opposite

SA is different in some ways, and certainly it does have a unique history going back to day one. But looking at the 2008 snapshot of that city compared to any other major city in Texas, there's not much that distinguishes it as structurally different. That Downtown is the largest employment center without necessarily comprising the bulk of the region's office space is a case in point. That most (but not all) of the growth is still suburban is a case in point. And that the suburbs can grow at the same time and not to the exclusion of revitalized urban areas is also a case in point. That is all consistent with the experience elsewhere in major Texas cities in 2008.

[TexasVines]

if downtown is the major employment center (I am not sure it is) then it is still based on tourism which makes it much different than most other major cities

Toyota by nature can't be downtown, the military base conversions won't be downtown, USAA has been at their campus on north I-10 for decades.....UTSA is where it is on north I-10 as is the medical center, Fiesta Texas and Sea World are not going to be downtown or contribute to downtown with the exception of some tourist nights in the hotels, all the private universities are not downtown, Tesoro Petroleum has been on 610 north for decades, the Southwest Research Center and Monkey Farm are not going to be downtown

so San Antonio is one of the major cities in the USA that can point to very specific and very valid reasons why their downtown has never been a major urban core and since all the growth points in SA are to the north or south or specifically away from downtown (UTSA, Medical Center, Toyota, Current and Former Military Bases, New TAMUK Campus, SWRC + Monkey Farm) I don't as big a need to suddenly try and cram urban living into downtown SA since people would have drive a ways to get to USAA, UTSA, Toyota, Medical Center, and any of the former and current military facilities unless one spouse works at Toyota and the other teaches at UTSA, or one works in the Medical Center and the other teaches at Our Lady Of The Lake

also some of those neighborhoods around downtown are not necessarily declining, they are full of retired people or base workers that are perfectly happy where they are at.....and many people especially the retired are not ones to dump tons of money into an older house just to make urban planners and the gentrifiers happy....so I see a lot of people coming around and insulting people that live in a house in that area because they want to "buy it and fix it up" and or "make the neighborhood all new" or start in with a bunch of new codes and restrictions and rules which to many of the current residents will mean "drive them out and increase their tax rates or make them spend a lot of money on a solid house just to make the new interlopers happy" all for the sake of poor planning in a city that is vastly different than many others

[TheNiche]

if downtown is the major employment center (I am not sure it is) then it is still based on tourism which makes it much different than most other major cities

Toyota by nature can't be downtown, the military base conversions won't be downtown, USAA has been at their campus on north I-10 for decades.....UTSA is where it is on north I-10 as is the medical center, Fiesta Texas and Sea World are not going to be downtown or contribute to downtown with the exception of some tourist nights in the hotels, all the private universities are not downtown, Tesoro Petroleum has been on 610 north for decades, the Southwest Research Center and Monkey Farm are not going to be downtown

so San Antonio is one of the major cities in the USA that can point to very specific and very valid reasons why their downtown has never been a major urban core and since all the growth points in SA are to the north or south or specifically away from downtown (UTSA, Medical Center, Toyota, Current and Former Military Bases, New TAMUK Campus, SWRC + Monkey Farm) I don't as big a need to suddenly try and cram urban living into downtown SA since people would have drive a ways to get to USAA, UTSA, Toyota, Medical Center, and any of the former and current military facilities unless one spouse works at Toyota and the other teaches at UTSA, or one works in the Medical Center and the other teaches at Our Lady Of The Lake

I'm looking at office employment exclusively.

There are lots of little employment clusters in San Antonio's suburbs, but not one of them is larger than downtown San Antonio. And I'm weary of stating that the entirety of northwest San Antonio counts as a single cluster. It's just not plausible that a land area hundreds of times larger than downtown be compared to downtown as though it were apples-to-apples.

But frankly, I'm still not sure what your point of contention is with me. Houston and Dallas are larger in scale but otherwise similar in layout to San Antonio. And your discussion supports that!

Tesoro Petroleum has been on 610 north for decades

SA's freeway loop is 410.

[TheNiche]

also some of those neighborhoods around downtown are not necessarily declining, they are full of retired people or base workers that are perfectly happy where they are at.....and many people especially the retired are not ones to dump tons of money into an older house just to make urban planners and the gentrifiers happy....so I see a lot of people coming around and insulting people that live in a house in that area because they want to "buy it and fix it up" and or "make the neighborhood all new" or start in with a bunch of new codes and restrictions and rules which to many of the current residents will mean "drive them out and increase their tax rates or make them spend a lot of money on a solid house just to make the new interlopers happy" all for the sake of poor planning in a city that is vastly different than many others

The veterans that own their homes near bases won't get driven out by higher prices or taxes. They're protected by seniors and homestead exemptions. And if they do decide to sell (which is different from being "driven out"), they'll make a lot of money. And that's just the way it ought to be. They're veterans after all. You should show more reverence for their service to our country.

[TexasVines]

you are correct it is 410

and my point is that this article is ignorant to how San Antonio is growing and has grown......can you give me any reason that anyone that is moving to San Antonio for one of the major growth industries in SA right now would want to live EAST of Downtown.......when all the major growth centers for SA are no where NEAR east downtown....conventions and tourism both of which are what drives downtown SA are not growth industries....and the most recent large tourism growth in SA (nearly two decades ago) was on the far west Sea World, and the far north Fiesta Texas......Toyota and TAMUK-SA are in the far south of SA.....UTSA and USAA and UTHSCSA and the SA medical center are in the north of SA.....SWRC + Monkey Farm are in the northwestern part of the city......Kelly USA is in the south west part of SA....none of the private universities are in the east side of SA.....Fort Sam is on the east side, but it is not growing a great deal and Randolph is on the EXTREME east of SA so living in east downtown SA would not be appealing to most and it is not growing a great deal

so again I see ZERO reason for east downtown SA to have any type of a growth spurt or any reason that any sensible planner would look at that area for targeted growth especially residential.....because it is a LONG ways away from all the major growth points of SA

[TheNiche]

and my point is that this article is ignorant to how San Antonio is growing and has grown......can you give me any reason that anyone that is moving to San Antonio for one of the major growth industries in SA right now would want to live EAST of Downtown.......when all the major growth centers for SA are no where NEAR east downtown....conventions and tourism both of which are what drives downtown SA are not growth industries....and the most recent large tourism growth in SA (nearly two decades ago) was on the far west Sea World, and the far north Fiesta Texas......Toyota and TAMUK-SA are in the far south of SA.....UTSA and USAA and UTHSCSA and the SA medical center are in the north of SA.....SWRC + Monkey Farm are in the northwestern part of the city......Kelly USA is in the south west part of SA....none of the private universities are in the east side of SA.....Fort Sam is on the east side, but it is not growing a great deal and Randolph is on the EXTREME east of SA so living in east downtown SA would not be appealing to most and it is not growing a great deal

Yes, I certainly can, because (like I said earlier) my friend got a job at St. Phillips College, a couple of miles east of downtown. It wasn't a new position that was created from scratch, like is occuring in the South Texas Medical Center and other areas that you have cited. It was just an opening that came available from turnover.

It just goes to show that cities don't just grow, they evolve. And as I keep saying, the trends that you describe are not only characteristic of San Antonio, but of Houston and Dallas. They're evolving, continuously changing, and there's not a damned thing that exempts San Antonio from the same process.

so again I see ZERO reason for east downtown SA to have any type of a growth spurt or any reason that any sensible planner would look at that area for targeted growth especially residential.....because it is a LONG ways away from all the major growth points of SA

So what do you think of the riverwalk extensions or of the Pearl Brewrey redevelopment?

[TexasVines]

Yes, I certainly can, because (like I said earlier) my friend got a job at St. Phillips College, a couple of miles east of downtown. It wasn't a new position that was created from scratch, like is occuring in the South Texas Medical Center and other areas that you have cited. It was just an opening that came available from turnover.

It just goes to show that cities don't just grow, they evolve. And as I keep saying, the trends that you describe are not only characteristic of San Antonio, but of Houston and Dallas. They're evolving, continuously changing, and there's not a damned thing that exempts San Antonio from the same process.

So what do you think of the riverwalk extensions or of the Pearl Brewrey redevelopment?

first you seem to think I have some issue with you....I don't

again go read the article....it is EXTREMELY poorly written and researched and totally full of BS......I-37 in no way shape or from cuts anywhere NEAR the heart of downtown and in fact the area east of that freeway is also cut off by a HUGE HemisFair plaza that was built in 1968 and a massive mall that was built in 1988 so some clown saying the freeway cut anyone off from anything is just flat BS.......because there NEVER WAS anything to the east of I-37 that had anything remotely to do with downtown and the only thing there now that has ANYTHING remotely to do with downtown is a poorly placed Alamodome....which again cuts off even further anything in that area from what the actual downtown is

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Sa...mp;t=h&z=15

look at the map and with the exception of the extremely poorly placed Almadome please explain to me what was cut off from downtown.....especially when the massive HemisFair is right there doing as much or more "cutting off" than anything

so really the WHOLE PREMISE of this article is STUPID and BS and FLAT WRONG....the train station is also east of the freeway, but train travel has been dead for 50+ years and is not going to come storming back in a state such as Texas anytime in the near future.....so I-37 cut NOTHING off from downtown......that is like people looking at I-59 and saying it cut something in the area east of there off from downtown Houston.....when the FACTS are there was nothing over there that had anything remotely to do with downtown when it was built and until the GRB was built there was nothing for probably A MILE or more involving DOWNTOWN Houston on the west side of I-59

and while I am happy for your friend ONE job that you even stated was not a new position at a community college is NOT the start of a revitalization of anything......and yes cities can evolve.......but again please explain to me (with the exception of some new public housing that was mentioned in the article as if that is real attractive to development) what it is that will bring a LARGE NEW INFLUX of people to live on the east side of a city that has all its major growth centers about as far from the east side of downtown as they can possibly be.....again what LARGE growth in that area is going to attract more than just a very small handful of people.....because I sure don't see it (your ONE friend not withstanding).....the area is well away from any and all of the major employment growth areas in San Antonio and downtown SA is NOT a major growth area because unlike every other major US city its major industry is conventions and tourism and or city government jobs which are NOT high growth at this time....the vast majority of people in those areas in San Antonio surely already have a place to live and I seriously doubt that they are chomping at the bit for someone to build a new expensive highrise so they can leave where they are at and move there and if they were interested in one of the small or large older homes in that area IMO THEY WOULD ALREADY BE IN ONE

so again I see NOTHING that will wholesale attract people to this area because downtown is not the major growth area for jobs in SA and I do not see it as the major growth area for jobs in the next 10+ years because all the major growth areas for jobs in San Antonio already have established locations far away from the east side of downtown with well thought out reasons why they are where they are at

you do not make the kinds of changes to an area that the clueless pie in the sky writers and people mentioned in this article are dreaming of with out a vehicle of GROWTH (small trickles of one and two people will not get it done) and that is NOT downtown San Antonio proper because San Antonio has never been a major corporate center and one major corporation is MOVING its highest management and another major corporation already has a well established headquarters WELL AWAY from the east side of downtown and several others also have well established offices AWAY from downtown

I would have prefered Pearl stayed as a brewery and same with Lone Star, but while what is being done with them now is nice again I see it as a VERY VERY VERY contributer to any type of real growth and the rivr walk extensions are always a good idea, but they are to the NORTH AND SOUTH.....not the east

I have no issue with you and I really could care less if people have dumb pie in the sky dreams wrapped around freeway lies and extremely POOR planning....but when they fail I will shed no tears for them because they are POOR PLANS PERIOD....because tha is probably the most dead side of San Antonio period and building downtown to commute to some distant place is probably dumber than building in the suburbs to commute downtown....atleast the people in the suburbs have schools, space, price, newer construction, ect. to offer up as a reason why they picked where they did to live....and until gas went crazy there were plenty of reasons to buy those excuses.....as for San Antonio.....to get to any of the growth areas from east of downtown.....you need to DRIVE a LONG way and you have no space, higher prices when fix up cost are included, highrise prices, older homes that will require work, and much poorer schools.....so I see even less incentive or advantage for the VAST MAJORITY of people moving to SA to live on the east side VS people in other cities living in the suburbs to go downtown

[TheNiche]

first you seem to think I have some issue with you....I don't

I'm an equal opportunity smartass. Just ask around. Others will confirm that you are receiving no special treatment in the way of my responses.

again go read the article....it is EXTREMELY poorly written and researched and totally full of BS......I-37 in no way shape or from cuts anywhere NEAR the heart of downtown and in fact the area east of that freeway is also cut off by a HUGE HemisFair plaza that was built in 1968 and a massive mall that was built in 1988 so some clown saying the freeway cut anyone off from anything is just flat BS.......because there NEVER WAS anything to the east of I-37 that had anything remotely to do with downtown and the only thing there now that has ANYTHING remotely to do with downtown is a poorly placed Alamodome....which again cuts off even further anything in that area from what the actual downtown is

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Sa...mp;t=h&z=15

look at the map and with the exception of the extremely poorly placed Almadome please explain to me what was cut off from downtown.....especially when the massive HemisFair is right there doing as much or more "cutting off" than anything

so really the WHOLE PREMISE of this article is STUPID and BS and FLAT WRONG....the train station is also east of the freeway, but train travel has been dead for 50+ years and is not going to come storming back in a state such as Texas anytime in the near future.....so I-37 cut NOTHING off from downtown......

Go read my responses. I agreed with you about the freeway not being a huge deal.

And I didn't comment on the Alamodome because I didn't have any insight on it. I saw a crappy concert there when I was in high school. That's my extent of knowledge of or experience with the Alamodome.

...that is like people looking at I-59 and saying it cut something in the area east of there off from downtown Houston.....when the FACTS are there was nothing over there that had anything remotely to do with downtown when it was built and until the GRB was built there was nothing for probably A MILE or more involving DOWNTOWN Houston on the west side of I-59

On this, I would disagree with you. The downtown plat is on both sides of US 59 (it is not an Interstate, btw) is part of the original Houston grid, and were US 59 not there, people really would consider that area to be an extension of downtown...because that's what it was. But given the layout of things in 2008, it is its own distinct neighborhood irrespective of its history as a part of downtown Houston.

And frankly there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between that neighborhood and the one that we're discussing. There are also parallels to be made in East Austin and Dallas' Design District.

It all seems to further my point.

and while I am happy for your friend ONE job that you even stated was not a new position at a community college is NOT the start of a revitalization of anything......and yes cities can evolve.......but again please explain to me (with the exception of some new public housing that was mentioned in the article as if that is real attractive to development) what it is that will bring a LARGE NEW INFLUX of people to live on the east side of a city that has all its major growth centers about as far from the east side of downtown as they can possibly be.....again what LARGE growth in that area is going to attract more than just a very small handful of people.....because I sure don't see it (your ONE friend not withstanding).....the area is well away from any and all of the major employment growth areas in San Antonio and downtown SA is NOT a major growth area because unlike every other major US city its major industry is conventions and tourism and or city government jobs which are NOT high growth at this time....the vast majority of people in those areas in San Antonio surely already have a place to live and I seriously doubt that they are chomping at the bit for someone to build a new expensive highrise so they can leave where they are at and move there and if they were interested in one of the small or large older homes in that area IMO THEY WOULD ALREADY BE IN ONE

so again I see NOTHING that will wholesale attract people to this area because downtown is not the major growth area for jobs in SA and I do not see it as the major growth area for jobs in the next 10+ years because all the major growth areas for jobs in San Antonio already have established locations far away from the east side of downtown with well thought out reasons why they are where they are at

you do not make the kinds of changes to an area that the clueless pie in the sky writers and people mentioned in this article are dreaming of with out a vehicle of GROWTH (small trickles of one and two people will not get it done) and that is NOT downtown San Antonio proper because San Antonio has never been a major corporate center and one major corporation is MOVING its highest management and another major corporation already has a well established headquarters WELL AWAY from the east side of downtown and several others also have well established offices AWAY from downtown

You asked for a reason someone would want to live in east San Antonio. I gave you one. If they work there, they may be inclined to live closer to where they work. I even gave you an example, one that illustrates how even natural turnover of existing jobs can effect the continued evolution of existing neighborhoods.

Your counterpoint, as far as I can tell, is that new employment growth is happening elsewhere. Yes. That is true. And I'm not saying that you're wrong. But your argument that nobody would want to live downtown because all of the new growth is suburban is not justifiable. Obviously there is somebody. And I'm positive given the low vacancy rates among existing market-rate apartments that there are more than just a handful of others. I'm not even saying that it is a huge number of people. I'm certainly not saying that it is the majority of people. It doesn't have to be even 1% of all people moving to the San Antonio metro area each year to bring about some major demographic changes...in time.

I would have prefered Pearl stayed as a brewery and same with Lone Star, but while what is being done with them now is nice again I see it as a VERY VERY VERY contributer to any type of real growth and the rivr walk extensions are always a good idea, but they are to the NORTH AND SOUTH.....not the east

I can't understand you. Type better.

Also, I bring up the riverwalk extensions and Pearl because they would seem to be encouraging new residential development in an area that is so close that it is effectively sharing the downtown market and that by your estimation is crime-ridden and overcrowded. I'm looking for more consistency (or perhaps clarity) on your part.

I have no issue with you and I really could care less if people have dumb pie in the sky dreams wrapped around freeway lies and extremely POOR planning....but when they fail I will shed no tears for them because they are POOR PLANS PERIOD....because tha is probably the most dead side of San Antonio period and building downtown to commute to some distant place is probably dumber than building in the suburbs to commute downtown....atleast the people in the suburbs have schools, space, price, newer construction, ect. to offer up as a reason why they picked where they did to live....and until gas went crazy there were plenty of reasons to buy those excuses.....as for San Antonio.....to get to any of the growth areas from east of downtown.....you need to DRIVE a LONG way and you have no space, higher prices when fix up cost are included, highrise prices, older homes that will require work, and much poorer schools.....so I see even less incentive or advantage for the VAST MAJORITY of people moving to SA to live on the east side VS people in other cities living in the suburbs to go downtown

You're right that a lot of people have really poor plans. Pipe dreams are common, and certainly San Antonio has had their fair share, as have all the major Texas cities. It is not unique. See a pattern?

But it almost seems as though you have me confused with one of those assholes that want to try to force people to live in cities by discouraging freeway construction, encouraging the construction of expensive less-effective slower mass transit, and by making disproportionate investment in inner-cities as opposed to where people actually live. I'm not that guy.

I'm more or less libertarian-minded and a realist. I want to allow for people to live wherever the hell they want to. Most people are going to live in the suburbs. You've gotten no quarrel from me about that. But some fraction of people want to live in or near downtown SA. If I moved to SA, I'd be one of them! Specifically, I'd want to live here (http://www.thevistana.com/) and could actually afford it because SA is just like that. If there were no vacancies, as is often the case at The Majestic or Cadillac Lofts, and I happened to have a job in the suburbs, I'd probably settle for living out in the countryside. One way or another, a long commute is a possibility (albeit far from a certainty depending on where I actually worked).

Here's the reality--MY reality: 1) no kids, so I don't care about schools; 2) one person, so I don't need a lot of space, but I do want quality space and views for the same reason and because I don't intend for that circumstance to be a permanent one; 3) one vehicle, so I don't need a lot of parking; 4) disposable income, because I am an articulate guy with an education; and 5) my time is valuable, so I actually WANT to be a renter and prefer to be pampered by my landlord and not have to worry about repair, maintenance, administrative stuff, financial contingencies associated with ownership, or anything like that. I'm definitely in a small minority. But I'm also definitely not alone.

As I said earlier: different strokes for different folks. I'll add to that the corollary: live and let live.

Peace.

[crunchtastic]

Hey, I'd live on the east side of dowtown SA.

I worked at USAA and lived near 1604 and 281 for 5 of the 12 years I was there. For the first 7 years I lived just north of Monte Vista (practically downtown). Guess which commute was worse? Bingo. The house closer to work, on the north side. The commute got to be 30-40 minutes each way. I could have done it in 15-20 going out 10 from downtown. A number of people in my office got in on the early wave of gentrification in Southtown. There is demand.

Distances to a lot of major employers from the inner core of SA is really not that far. I knew people who lived downtown, King William, Southtown, and their commute was usually less than the folks I knew out on the North Central and NW sides of town, off 1604. Even though it was twice as close as the crow flies, sprawl and congestion made the family friendly suburbs as bad as the 290 NW area of Houston. Straight north up 281 was worse. Hell, now everyone is buying out past Boerne, which is now a traffic nightmare. Or worse, up 281, all the way to Canyon Lake. Southwest Research is not as easy to get to as you might think. You look at a map and say, "well, it's like 7 miles from Helotes. I'll buy my KB manse and live in style close to work!" Translates to 30 minutes each way. One of the reasons I didn't mind leaving SA. The high growth areas were, to me, at least as bad as Houston's.

The east side rocks. Back in the day, an old working class Irish and German 'hood. My dad grew up there. I was looking at old houses over there before I moved back to Houston.

[TexasVines]

if the east side "rocked" more people would already be flocking to live there.....they don't....because it doesn't

NONE of the places you listed Monte Vista, King William, Southtown are anywhere CLOSE to I-37 and east commerce which is the area being discussed in THIS ARTICLE and BY ME.....I can EASILY see why people bought and lived in ANY of the areas you mentioned.......but when there are PRE EXISTING nice things in two of those areas for sure what possible reason would anyone on earth move to the area of I-37 and east commerce which looks like a mass of surface parking when they could move to one of the areas you mentioned and be a great deal closer to ANY of the major employment growth areas of San Antonio.....the also tourist industry which is downtown SAs major industry means hotels......to move up in the hotel industry the fastest you MOVE.....A LOT....which means you often do not fart around "pioneering" new places to live wherever you move to unless you like losing money and spending the majority of your free time fixing up a house you will likely lose money on .....in the military.....you also do not go around "pioneering" new areas in each town you are transfered every 3-5 years unless you like losing money and spending all your time fixing up a house you will likely lose money on.....as a retired person you likely do not go around "pioneering new areas" especially on a fixed retirement like the military

and SWRC + Monkey Farm would certainly not be any easier to get to from the east of downtown....there are plenty of still affordable places (especially compared to a highrise or an extreme fixer upper) that are no where near Borne or far north 281

The Vistana clearly looks to me like it is on the WEST side of downtown.....which I can see a great deal more people wanting to live in since it is right by several major hospitals....I see the Pearl Brewery and The river walk extensions as contributing VERY LITTLE job growth in any part of SA.....but I can see them attracting people to live there......but AGAIN......neither of them is ANYWHERE close to I-37 and east commerce which is what is mentioned in this article.....what on earth would drive people to I-37 and east commerce when the river walk and the Pearl brewery redevelopment are as far from I-37 and east commerce as any other part of downtown SA....."hey look the river walk was extended and Pearl is now redeveloped........lets move to THE OTHER SIDE OF DOWNTOWN FROM IT WHERE ALL THE PRETTY SURFACE PARKING IS.....yes that makes complete sense...

no where did I say "I can't see why people live close to downtown SA"........in fact the north and west areas of SA I can easily see people moving to and having highrise and condo development......what am saying is the EAST SIDE OF SA near I-37 and east commerce that is specifically mentioned in this article offers NONE of the attractions that ANY other side of downtown San Antonio offer.....to me it is similar to looking at Houston where the growth around downtown is towards the TMC, Rice, and UH and where the major development is going on now is midtown......and someone taking an architecture class and then saying.......why is everyone not flocking to the area north of the county jails.....and again when you add in that many people working in downtown SA will probably be moving a great deal more because they are in the hotel industry and other people in SA will be moving a lot because they are in the military.....I see it as EXTREMELY unlikely that people will be rushing to "pioneer" yet another area of downtown SA especially when it is the ugliest.....the furthest from any of the major growth areas.....the other sides of downtown already offer a great deal more......and there is still plenty of areas north and west of downtown SA to build

for those that think east of I-37 is going anywhere in the next 2 decades....tom hicks just called.....he has a kick ass new development in Dallas he wants to sell you half of.....it is called Victory something or other

get in early it is going to really take off

[TheNiche]

if the east side "rocked" more people would already be flocking to live there.....they don't....because it doesn't

If the East Side "rocked", it'd have limestone outcrops. Oh, wait. It does!

The Vistana clearly looks to me like it is on the WEST side of downtown.....which I can see a great deal more people wanting to live in since it is right by several major hospitals

Yep, well what can I say, except that that puny little largest employment center in the metropolitan area had so few jobs and was so crowded and was so crime-ridden that I couldn't help myself and just had to live there.

Earlier comments by you targeted the whole downtown area. That you're now (amazingly!) getting back on topic is an indication to me that I'm winning an argument.

for those that think east of I-37 is going anywhere in the next 2 decades....tom hicks just called.....he has a kick ass new development in Dallas he wants to sell you half of.....it is called Victory something or other

get in early it is going to really take off

At the right price, I'd buy into it in an instant. It ain't gonna happen, but that's only because there are sites nearby that are much preferable available at the same or a lower cost. I won't say which ones, though. I'll let that be my little secret.

[TexasVines]

I said downtown SA is not the major growth area of SA.....I stand by that.....i said that people who do work downtown probably already have a place to live and nothing will bring them to downtown...I never said there were NO jobs there.....there are jobs there with people that will either have a place to live currently or they will attract people that will be moving frequently and will have no interest in pioneering a new area

you are correct in my first post #5 I did say downtown in general and I still stand by the idea that for the most part ALL of downtown will not have the same residential growth as other similar sized cities because of the growth centers of SA and where they are located and that it would make much more sense for many people in those growth areas of SA to live anywhere but downtown on any side....two of the three areas that Crunch mentioned would not be downtown to most anyone from SA

in my next post #7 I said that downtown SA is not the major growth area.....again I stand by that....again I did not say they don't have jobs there....I said it is not the growth area of SA it is probably 3rd or 4th on that list

in my next post #9 I reiterated the idea that the major growth areas are away from downtown SA and always will be and that many of the neighborhoods in and around downtown are full of people not looking to be gentrified....I stand by that

in post #12 I specifically mentioned EAST downtown twice as talked about in the article....i have yet to see why anyone would choose that side of SA

post #14 map provided and EAST side mentioned again

so I did mention the entirety of downtown SA in the first post....I stand by the notion that downtown SA will not attract much if any large residential for all the previous reasons stated dealing with the major growth industries and their locations and I stood by that point in post #7

in any other post after that I was clear that if any area of downtown was to grow it would specifically NOT be the east side and the east side was specifically mentioned

so I don't see any area of downtown attracting the residential that similar sized cities have in the past or will in the future......current trends show I am correct.......after that I mentioned several times the specific area mentioned in the article as being the least likely of any of those areas to attract residential development.....two of the 3 areas Crunch mentioned would NOT be considered downtown......the condos you showed would be

in the end SA is well behind other cities its size in downtown development of any type especially residential....and I do not see downtown SA moving up the list of growth areas of SA I see it probably falling down that list behind UTSA, Toyota, North I-10 USAA, Medical Center, SWRC + Monkey Farm, and Kelly USA so I still see in the future very little to catch SA up to other cities its size in specifically residential development and also in commercial development.....and I specifically see the east side of downtown as being the LAST area of downtown SA to have any reason or potential to be developed for any use

just having a web discussion in my very abundant current free time....not looking to "win"......but I feel I have made decent arguments to back up my points that downtown SA is not a major growth area for SA because of the specifics of how and what drives SA (I COULD be proven wrong on that but it will be a lot longer to prove that than it would be for many similar sized cities) and even more specifically I think the east side of SA is the most ridiculous area to even mention for growth or redevelopment and I don't think I will be proven wrong on that for decades if ever

I never mentioned crime in any post.....not sure where you drew that from...but the crime in SA would probably be heaviest in the east and south of downtown areas

[kingwilliam]

I had to post in this thread.

Firstly, Vine, for someone who is doing so much "talking" about San Antonio, you seem to no nothing about this city. Please, just stop. I mean really, the Spurs arena was built on the east side, not the north side. About three miles east of the Alamodome. I mean, that's just one of the many things you spewed that were incorrect.

When it comes to Southtown, King William and Monte Vista, these were neighborhoods in disarray because of the exodus to the suburbs during the 70 and 80's. These neighborhoods were run down until people, mostly artists, moved in and began to revitalize these places over the past 20 years. The SAME THING is happening on the east side in the Dignowity Hills neighborhood. More on that later.

Also, there has been a renewed effort to bring people downtown to live and work, etc. One of the big things is the River North District that is currently being created.

http://downtownsanantonio.org/pdf/CHARRETTE%20CATALOG.pdf

This will be for San Antonians not tourists.

It's also fantastic that it is also coinciding with the 2-mile urban extension of the Riverwalk.

Construction pictures:

If you don't know too much about the the 13-mile 350 Million Dollar San Antonio River Improvement Project, click the link below to be amazed.

http://www.sanantonioriver.org/pdfs/Curren...Eddies_6_12.pdf

Both the 4-mile Museum Reach (north segment) and the 9-mile Mission Reach (south segment) are under construction. With the 2-mile urban segment to be completed next year.

When completed the 14-mile River will be the country's longest linear park.

As for the area just east of downtown, maybe some of you know about the 20 story Vidorra high rise condo (with a second twin also planned) being built just east of downtown next to the rail tracks someone in here said no one wants to live near. If you don't, here ya go:

www.vidorraliving.com

Rendering:

Recent construction pictures:

The view:

Still need more proof the east side is developing? Well guess what, it was just recently made the Arts and Entertainment District of San Antonio.

This graphic is from the 2nd of this month before the Council voted to approve the zoning change and create the A&E District. Which is why it says "proposed".

This is going to help big time in the development of the near East side.

Below are pictures I took back in September of the redone Commerce Street east of downtown.

Fatty's to the left and Friedrich to the right.

Looking east:

What this same area looked like before:

Taken last year.

I know someone in this thread said their friend wanted to open up a retail business near Fatty Burgers. Well, you can see why. Also, the Friedrich Building shown above is a former Air Conditioning production warehouse that is 500,000 square feet and is now a mixed-use building home to the HQ for a beer company, an architecture firm, a marketing firm and a Web site builder.

[kingwilliam]

Ok, now here's Dignowity Hill.

http://www.neighborhoodlink.com/sat/dhna/map

This neighborhood just east of downtown is basically what Southtown, King William and Monte Vista were in the 80's. Blighted neighborhoods on the turnaround with new people moving in renovating homes to live in changing the dynamics of said neighborhood.

The first time I ever encountered the Dig was last spring during Fiesta when I dropped some friends off downtown. Because traffic was a nightmare everywhere I had to find alternatives to get out of the downtown area and back on the freeway. Driving through this area I didn't know at the time was Dignowity Hill, because of traffic and road closures, I saw a bunch of homes that had been renovated or were being renovated and the homes and newly revitalizing neighborhood reminded me of a King William in genesis.

Now over a year later, it's still transforming.

With the recent road work on Commerce, the turning of the nearby area into an A&E District as well as the BRAC process can only help in that transformation. Because of BRAC some 12,000 military people are moving from out of state to the near by Fort Sam Houston post. All looking for places to live. All moving here within the next two years.

Some pictures of Dignowity Hill.

There's also the Dignowity Pushcart Derby which has become quite popular the last couple of years within the neighborhood.

Check out these videos from this years Derby:

Here's the On The Hill blog. Neat stuff.

I got these pictures from there.

Here's a story about three people, all well off, who moved from an affluent part of the city to Dignowity Hill. Not only did they move there, they also bought several homes in the neighborhood and fixed them up, some they practically saved from being tore down!

Here's the story by the On The Hill blogger:

Before:

After:

What the images don't tell is about the people, besides Gino, who saved Rose from winding up a pile of 100 yr old lumber. You see, Rose had been scheduled to be demolished by the city because they had decided that house was an unsafe structure and most likely she was.

But three people with a healthy dose of vision, guts and good business instincts thought that Rose was worth saving. Byron and Betty, who are married to each other and partner Bill had recently bought and restored several homes in the area. Some of these restored homes were former "crack" houses or had been used by the homeless to get out of the weather. They were in pretty bad shape.

But get this, they all moved into the neighborhood. They lifted stakes from what most folks in San Antonio would consider some of the most affluent parts of town to a neighborhood that real estate agents would say was "in transition".

What's even more amazing is that these folks were all in their 70's when they got into this! Talk about looking forward and taking on some pretty daunting risks at an age when most people are just coasting along waiting for the inevitable to happen.

So here I am, 55 yrs old, looking ahead to retirement and these people are out there trying to change the world at 75.....unbelievable! These guys are my heroes!

[kingwilliam]

Like I said, the dynamics of the Dignowity neighborhood are changing.

It's basically becoming the place for young people who want to live in a neighborhood like Southtown or King William but not as expensive.

[travelguy_73]

Kingwilliam, thanks so much for your insight, pictures, and links. Being a native of the area, I have followed this thread with interest, and find the debate to be, ummm, interesting. While I don't plan to move back to SA, my parents will surely be there until they die, and I am always trying to get them back into the city to see all the good things that are going on. Who knows, maybe one day they will decide that retirement is lame and old houses are a good way to keep active.

And I love the transformation of Commerce Street! Hiding the unsightly power lines makes so much difference!