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Mowing the right-of-way


WAZ

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We all know we're supposed to mow on the public right of way in front of our houses - and if you're at a corner on the side too. But say your house backs up to a major street, and you have a fence back there and never go there. The City of Houston still expects you to mow it.

In a nutshell, this is what paragraph 10 of ordinance 10-451b says.

This is an issue for my subdivision and surely others. Neighbors in my subdivision are great about mowing the streets in front of their homes. But we back up to a four lane thoroughfare, and out of 22 homes backing up onto the thoroughfare, only two homeowners diligently mow along it.

The City of Houston should rewrite this absurd law. Having to mow on your address right of way is fine - and the other street at a corner. That's how it works everywhere. But having to jump a fence and mow out back on a third street? Ridiculous. The City should pony up the resources and mow its own streets in these circumstances.

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Please climb the fence to mow my lawn for me.

Doesn't that sound weird to you?

It does. But when you closed on your home, you agreed to take on many responsibilities that the City might conceivably be able to take care of for you if different laws were in place. Oops. :rolleyes:

Now, rather than pawning off your responsibilities on all the other neighborhoods in the City which were designed well, perhaps you should work with your civic association or HOA and raise the tiny amount of funds per home that would be necessary to have them efficiently take care of those hard-to-reach places.

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My taxes should increase because you are too lazy to mow the right of way that you get to enjoy? Should we also higher an extra guy to pick up the trash at the curb in front of your house?

Hmm, let me get back to you on that one. Right now, I need to go mow my ROW.

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It does. But when you closed on your home, you agreed to take on many responsibilities that the City might conceivably be able to take care of for you if different laws were in place. Oops. :rolleyes:

Now, rather than pawning off your responsibilities on all the other neighborhoods in the City which were designed well, perhaps you should work with your civic association or HOA and raise the tiny amount of funds per home that would be necessary to have them efficiently take care of those hard-to-reach places.

I'm amazed at how fast the misunderstandings are coming here.

First off, I AM President of my Civic Club. In fact I'm also an officer in a Super Neighborhood Council. And it's not MY house that backs up to the road.

Second, there are a few points to make or reemphasize:

- The subdivision was built in the 1950s. If you want to talk about 'bad design' - I direct you to your local cemetary.

- Many residents closed on their homes before the City wrote Ordinance 10-451b and don't know about it.

- My neighborhood is not alone in this predicament.

- The "tiny amount of funds per home" that you're talking about is actually most of our Civic Club budget. It would be a 'tiny amount of funds' to the City of Houston; not to us.

- Our taxes are going up regardless. If the City won't maintain the public ROW with our money, they'll just build new hotels downtown, new toy trains (um, light rail), and God knows what with it. Those are things that will cost ALOT more than this.

That said, the Civic Club probably will wind up coughing up the money to mow on our streach of City neglected road. As President I might even pay part of it myself. But I'm not going to just spend that money without a fight. Letters are being sent to residents who live there to see if they'll actually contribute (doubtful). And I AM trying here and elsewhere to bring some sanity to 10-451b, regardless of what insults you all might hurl at me for it.

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- The subdivision was built in the 1950s. If you want to talk about 'bad design' - I direct you to your local cemetary.

When you become a homeowner you take on many responsibilities. If you're not able to handle it, then I direct you to your local apartment block.

- Many residents closed on their homes before the City wrote Ordinance 10-451b

They should have fought the ordinance before it was passed. You know -- take an interest in their city and how it works.

and don't know about it.

Ignorance of the law is not a defense.

- My neighborhood is not alone in this predicament.

What's your point?

- The "tiny amount of funds per home" that you're talking about is actually most of our Civic Club budget. It would be a 'tiny amount of funds' to the City of Houston; not to us.

Why does the club have to be involved at all? Just have the city write a couple of tickets to the slacking homeowners and the problem will solve itself rather quickly.

- Our taxes are going up regardless.

Strawman argument.

If the City won't maintain the public ROW with our money, they'll just build new hotels downtown, new toy trains (um, light rail), and God knows what with it. Those are things that will cost ALOT more than this.

Your sarcastic question deserves a sarcastic answer: Yeah, why should the city spend money on things that will be used by millions of people when it could hire landscapers to pick up the slack for a couple of dozen lazy homeowners? Maybe the city should also hire people to follow your dog around picking up its poo, too.

That said, the Civic Club probably will wind up coughing up the money to mow on our streach of City neglected road. As President I might even pay part of it myself. But I'm not going to just spend that money without a fight. Letters are being sent to residents who live there to see if they'll actually contribute (doubtful). And I AM trying here and elsewhere to bring some sanity to 10-451b, regardless of what insults you all might hurl at me for it.

You haven't really outlined any "sanity" you're trying to bring to the ordinance -- all you've done is posit that it's not a good ordinance because it costs you time and money, and you want to shift that responsibility onto someone else.

You don't want your tax dollars being spent to subsidize light rail for people who live downtown. They don't want their tax dollars being spent so the city can mow your lawn -- a responsibility you agreed to when you purchased your home.

All that said -- maybe you might find more sympathy around here if you added some photographs illustrating the alleged absurdity of the situation.

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Perhaps those of us who have not seen fit to agree with you have grown up with a different definition of a 'Civic Club'. Having served on an HOA myself, it was always my impression that the dues paid by homeowners should go toward improvements and beautification above and beyond the minimum standards that the city requires. In fact, my old HOA maintained the city ROW abutting our property even though the city normally did so. Our caretaking looked better than theirs.

I do not begrudge your attempt to get the city to take over lawn maintanance that you and your neighbors do not wish to do yourselves. Asking me to SUPPORT your efforts, and further, to change a perfectly good ordinance in the process, is a bit much. You and your neighbors derive the benefit of that greenspace, and it is my opinion that you should at least maintain it. I can think of several homeowners near me who would gladly maintain a greenspace, rather than have their fence mere feet from a major thoroughfare.

If you find that insulting, so be it.

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I'm amazed at how fast the misunderstandings are coming here.

First off, I AM President of my Civic Club. In fact I'm also an officer in a Super Neighborhood Council. And it's not MY house that backs up to the road.

As civic club President, you need to use all resources possible. Does this hinder drainage for the street or the neighborhood in any way? If so, you may take this approach and the city will cut it. Not sure where you're located but the county also cuts this if it affects drainage.

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I'm amazed at how fast the misunderstandings are coming here.

First off, I AM President of my Civic Club. In fact I'm also an officer in a Super Neighborhood Council. And it's not MY house that backs up to the road.

Second, there are a few points to make or reemphasize:

- The subdivision was built in the 1950s. If you want to talk about 'bad design' - I direct you to your local cemetary.

- Many residents closed on their homes before the City wrote Ordinance 10-451b and don't know about it.

- My neighborhood is not alone in this predicament.

- The "tiny amount of funds per home" that you're talking about is actually most of our Civic Club budget. It would be a 'tiny amount of funds' to the City of Houston; not to us.

- Our taxes are going up regardless. If the City won't maintain the public ROW with our money, they'll just build new hotels downtown, new toy trains (um, light rail), and God knows what with it. Those are things that will cost ALOT more than this.

You bought into a badly designed subdivision within the boundaries of a municipality which has proven fiscally responsible and equitable, on the whole, as exemplified by Ordinance 10-451b. The owners merely took on political risk and it didn't work out for them. Ho hum. And while it is true that your neighborhood is not the only poorly designed one, clearly this is not the case among all neighborhoods; moreover, out of those neighborhoods that are subject to this ordinance, only a relatively small number of homes are actually affected.

If the tiny amount of funds per home that would be necessary to mow the ROWs comprises the majority of your budget, then you are either to be congratulated on not going overboard with the services that are provided by your organization, or would be well-served by contracting with some more reasonably-priced immigrant labor.

As the City takes on additional responsibilities, it has to pay for them. They have the option of borrowing money or taxing citizens, but the effect is the same. Costs get passed through to taxpayers, even for relatively small projects. ...I would caution however that--as RedScare points out--the City will never do as good a job as your Civic Assn. could because they don't care very much about doing anything more than the minimum and certainly can't overtly play favorites among various neighborhoods.

That said, the Civic Club probably will wind up coughing up the money to mow on our streach of City neglected road. As President I might even pay part of it myself. But I'm not going to just spend that money without a fight. Letters are being sent to residents who live there to see if they'll actually contribute (doubtful). And I AM trying here and elsewhere to bring some sanity to 10-451b, regardless of what insults you all might hurl at me for it.

I don't begrudge your political/fiduciary duty to try and coerce non-residents of your neighborhood out of their resources to benefit your constituency. If you feel insulted, please think again.

But perhaps putting your case forward to an online message board wasn't the best approach. Yours is not a cause that is going to be very popular among the general public (i.e. the ones you're trying to rip off).

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I don't begrudge your political/fiduciary duty to try and coerce non-residents of your neighborhood out of their resources to benefit your constituency. If you feel insulted, please think again.

But perhaps putting your case forward to an online message board wasn't the best approach. Yours is not a cause that is going to be very popular among the general public (i.e. the ones you're trying to rip off).

You're probably right. It wasn't the best approach to propose a specific change to 10-451b here. It was too specific and too open to misinterpretation. I had hoped others had a situation similar to mine. That obviously was wrong. But I still hope people can see that this is one small part of a much larger problem in our City.

It's not just about a few lawns in one subdivision - or even a few hundred lawns in a dozen subdivisions. It's that's that the City of Houston likes to build grand projects and doesn't always take care of what it already has.

I used to live near Rice Village and Kirby Drive. The state that road got to before anyone bucked up to fix it - that's a disgrace to our City. And that's just one other example.

To look at it a different way - Discovery Green is the latest and greatest thing in the City. It's a beautiful park. But what happens in 30 years when Discovery Green isn't the latest and greatest? Will it still be beautiful? Or will it be forgotten, neglected, and dangerous? The way Houston City Hall works, this is a serious question. Whose to say they won't re-write the rules to make owners of surrounding buildings take care of the park? And then whose to say those building owners will actually do it?

You know, lots of out-of-towners view Houston as a City that doesn't care about itself. I've always denied that because I care, and there are lots of other Houstonians who care. Just by participating in the HAIF, you care to some small degree about this City.

Laws like paragraph 10 of 10-451b, coupled with the laws of human nature and reality - they make it SEEM like Houstonians don't care.

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To look at it a different way - Discovery Green is the latest and greatest thing in the City. It's a beautiful park. But what happens in 30 years when Discovery Green isn't the latest and greatest? Will it still be beautiful? Or will it be forgotten, neglected, and dangerous? The way Houston City Hall works, this is a serious question. Whose to say they won't re-write the rules to make owners of surrounding buildings take care of the park? And then whose to say those building owners will actually do it?

a conservancy was setup to take care of discovery green.

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a conservancy was setup to take care of discovery green.

The Discovery Green conservancy's contract lasts fifty years.

So revise my question.

what happens in 50 years when Discovery Green isn't the latest and greatest and the Conservancy

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THAT sort of thing is the problem with Houston.

if they would only enforce the ordinances on the book, it would be cut/maintained. many civic clubs have these same type of issues when ordinances aren't enforced. (loud noise, garage sales, high weeds, etc)

why don't you turn in the addresses to neighborhood protection if you're that concerned? if not neighborhood protection, elevate it and contact yoour councilperson. what street is this?

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I saw this guy who apparently lives in one of the houses in Timbergrove that backs up to Durham near where the big bridge goes over White Oak. Since Durham was widened beyond all rationale, there is not a mowing issue. However there was an Ike debris issue. To clean up Ike debris, he had to walk up to 11th then back down, nearly to the bridge. That's like 6 blocks total. As I drove by, it appeared that he was going to attempt to heave the debris over the fence, and into his yard.. I thought the same thing, Red...why not a gate? Then I thought, who would want a portal between their yard and Durham?

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You're probably right. It wasn't the best approach to propose a specific change to 10-451b here. It was too specific and too open to misinterpretation. I had hoped others had a situation similar to mine. That obviously was wrong. But I still hope people can see that this is one small part of a much larger problem in our City.

It's not just about a few lawns in one subdivision - or even a few hundred lawns in a dozen subdivisions. It's that's that the City of Houston likes to build grand projects and doesn't always take care of what it already has.

I used to live near Rice Village and Kirby Drive. The state that road got to before anyone bucked up to fix it - that's a disgrace to our City. And that's just one other example.

To look at it a different way - Discovery Green is the latest and greatest thing in the City. It's a beautiful park. But what happens in 30 years when Discovery Green isn't the latest and greatest? Will it still be beautiful? Or will it be forgotten, neglected, and dangerous? The way Houston City Hall works, this is a serious question. Whose to say they won't re-write the rules to make owners of surrounding buildings take care of the park? And then whose to say those building owners will actually do it?

You know, lots of out-of-towners view Houston as a City that doesn't care about itself. I've always denied that because I care, and there are lots of other Houstonians who care. Just by participating in the HAIF, you care to some small degree about this City.

Laws like paragraph 10 of 10-451b, coupled with the laws of human nature and reality - they make it SEEM like Houstonians don't care.

This is SO completely backasswards that I think my head is about to explode!

The people who are criticizing your post are NOT the ones who don't care! We are the ones who DO care! I do not doubt that some out-of-towners think Houstonians don't care when we have so many homeowners who will not even lift a finger to mow the grass in their own neighborhood. To paraphrase John F. Kennedy, ask not what your city can do for you, ask what you can do for your city. Discovery Green was built and is maintained largely through the donations of proud citizens. How dare you use it as an example of your refusal to even mow a stinking strip of grass. In MY neighborhood, I mow the ROW, I pick up trash, I call in grafitti...I care enough about my neighborhood to clean it up MYSELF. And, I am not talking about just the strip in front of my house. I pick up the entire block, as well as maintain the alley in back. I don't wait around for the city to do it. I do it myself.

I expect the city to pay for police, fire and EMS. I expect them to have clean water in my tap. I expect them to keep the storm sewers clean and working. I do NOT expect them to raise my taxes to mow grass that can easily be mowed by caring homeowners. In fact, those neighborhoods that won't mow their own grass are neighborhoods that I do not want to live in, because that is indicative of neighbors who do not care.

So don't turn your neighbors' laziness into my problem. It is solely yours. I support that ordinance as an example of not wasting tax dollars on things citizens ought do for themselves. If your neighbors do not care what the neighborhood looks like, do not expect us to care for them.

EDIT: After thinking about it, I need to amend part of my post. That is, I have never heard anyone describe Houstonians as non-caring in my 32 years in this city. Far from it, we are known as a city that takes care of ourselves, rather than demanding someone else do it for us. The more I think of your complaint, the more it strikes me that you are unwilling to perform your duties as Civic Club president in encouraging the residents of your neighborhood to adhere to the ordinance that requires they maintain their adjacent right of way.

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I expect the city to pay for police, fire and EMS. I expect them to have clean water in my tap. I expect them to keep the storm sewers clean and working. I do NOT expect them to raise my taxes to mow grass that can easily be mowed by caring homeowners. In fact, those neighborhoods that won't mow their own grass are neighborhoods that I do not want to live in, because that is indicative of neighbors who do not care.

The area can't easily be mowed by the individual homeowners. That's the whole point. Do I have to draw a map for you? They'll either have to walk a mile, scale a fence, or spend hundreds of dollars to install gates.

The Civic Club probably will push residents on that road to contribute to a fund, and we'd use that fund to pay a service to mow back there. But I do WISH the City would revise 10-451b for the City to mow on ROADS that are BEHIND HOUSES and SEPARATED FROM THOSE HOUSES BY A FENCE OR WALL.

And your tax concerns are a red-herring if ever there was one. A city-wide mowing program on roads behind houses might cost a few thousand dollars. The City's budget for 2008 was over $1.7 billion. (http://www.houstontx.gov/budget/08budadopt/II_GFS.pdf) It wouldn't make a noticable difference in property taxes.

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The area can't easily be mowed by the individual homeowners. That's the whole point. Do I have to draw a map for you? They'll either have to walk a mile, scale a fence, or spend hundreds of dollars to install gates.

my parents are in their late 60's and pay someone to cut their 410'x15' easement. i think they pay $25. theirs is pretty big so i'm sure yours would be considerably less.

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I do WISH the City would revise 10-451b for the City to mow on ROADS that are BEHIND HOUSES and SEPARATED FROM THOSE HOUSES BY A FENCE OR WALL.

And your tax concerns are a red-herring if ever there was one. A city-wide mowing program on roads behind houses might cost a few thousand dollars. The City's budget for 2008 was over $1.7 billion. (http://www.houstontx.gov/budget/08budadopt/II_GFS.pdf) It wouldn't make a noticable difference in property taxes.

Wait, I thought you were complaining earlier about the excessive cost to your neighborhood!? If it is so expensive that you are whining for relief from it, it would seem to be expensive enough to warrant a counterargument based upon the inequitible use of taxpayer funds.

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The area can't easily be mowed by the individual homeowners. That's the whole point. Do I have to draw a map for you?

Yes. We don't live in your neighborhood. If you want us to be sympathetic you have to demonstrate why.

Maybe it would be easier or cheaper for the HOA/Civic Group to pay to install gates in the homeowners' fences instead of paying to have the ROW mowed.

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The area can't easily be mowed by the individual homeowners. That's the whole point. Do I have to draw a map for you? They'll either have to walk a mile, scale a fence, or spend hundreds of dollars to install gates.

The Civic Club probably will push residents on that road to contribute to a fund, and we'd use that fund to pay a service to mow back there. But I do WISH the City would revise 10-451b for the City to mow on ROADS that are BEHIND HOUSES and SEPARATED FROM THOSE HOUSES BY A FENCE OR WALL.

And your tax concerns are a red-herring if ever there was one. A city-wide mowing program on roads behind houses might cost a few thousand dollars. The City's budget for 2008 was over $1.7 billion. (http://www.houstontx.gov/budget/08budadopt/II_GFS.pdf) It wouldn't make a noticable difference in property taxes.

I don't need a map, because I can tell exactly what your complaint is, and exactly who is to blame for this problem. The homeowners, NOT the City, built those fences without access to the ROW behind them. Now, you wish to blame the City for the failure of the homeowners to provide for their own access to the ROW. Because these homeowners were too shortsighted to give themselves access, you have blamed a valid, useful and practical ordinance that provides that homeowners who gain the most benefit from adjacent ROW should at least maintain it.

It is stunning that you consider the failure of homeowners to access the ROW the City's fault, but no matter. I want to draw your attention to your estimate that the City can mow all of the ROW within its 630 square miles of land area for "a few thousand dollars". I would suggest that even at the low wages that the City pays, "a few thousand dollars" would not even cover the gasoline used in the mowers and trucks needed to transport them. And, the mowing would need to occur at least half a dozen times per year. This is not an insignificant expense. I suggest that you swallow hard and tell the homeowners to mow their ROW. Better yet, put it in a letter and blame the city. It is always good to blame someone else.

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Wait, I thought you were complaining earlier about the excessive cost to your neighborhood!? If it is so expensive that you are whining for relief from it, it would seem to be expensive enough to warrant a counterargument based upon the inequitible use of taxpayer funds.

Our Civic Club 'dues' are voluntary and less than $30 a year. Homeowners in the subdivision are required to pay much more than that in property taxes annually.

The cost to mow along that road is alot compared to the few hundred that this civic club collects in dues every year. It's miniscule compared to the annual budget of the City of Houston. In fact, the amount it'd cost to mow along ALL the City roads that are in this situation would be miniscule compared to the $1.7 billion that the City budgets annually.

Yes. We don't live in your neighborhood. If you want us to be sympathetic you have to demonstrate why.

Maybe it would be easier or cheaper for the HOA/Civic Group to pay to install gates in the homeowners' fences instead of paying to have the ROW mowed.

It's a public road. You might not live here, but nothing is stopping you from driving on it - though overgrown trees and brush are stopping you from walking on it. Someone earlier in the thread said 'we'll pay for stadiums and toy trains and museums and hotels because lots of people use them' - lots of people drive on this road, too, and lots of people walk on it, too.

Gates would be a security concern, and probably not cheaper than mowing. Plus the up-front cost would be alot.

The Civic Club and residents probably will pony up the cash to mow along the road 'out back'. As CC president I'll probably wind up putting some of my own money towards it. :( But I won't do it happily. And mark my words, I WILL keep fighting for revisions to 10-451B.

- lots of people drive on this road, too, and lots of people walk on it, too.

Correction, lots of people WOULD LIKE TO walk on it, too - if they could. Some try already.

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Because certain people are still misunderstanding me, I'll re-iterate: I am NOT saying the City needs to mow ALL rights of way in the City Limits. I'm only saying it should mow those rights of way that are PUBLIC ROADS and that are BEHIND HOUSES and SEPARATED BY FENCES.

Residents in this subdivision are great about mowing on the right of way in front of their houses. We're great about mowing the side streets at corners. But the road behind the fence out back? Not so much. And unlike some here, I don't blame them. I wouldn't climb a fence and throw a lawnmower over it either.

The last thing I'll note is that the fences weren't put there to avoid the ordinance. That ordinance came AFTER the fences were up. Sad that leaders in the neighborhood didn't catch it when it went to vote, but that's history.

Reality is such that the Civic Club will probably wind up fixing the problem. But Ordinance 10-451b really ought to change.

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Because certain people are still misunderstanding me...

Not sure why you keep saying this. I suppose it is because you cannot believe that people would actually disagree with you. We understand, and we disagree. We even have fences of our own...with GATES (I built mine myself). Knock yourself out trying to change the ordinance. Hey, if you can convince the city to mow the ROW for you, even better. We are simply disagreeing that it is a bad ordinance, or that the city should repeal it. Most of us actually like it. Otherwise, no one would mow any of the ROWs. That would be worse.

I notice you won't tell us what thoroughfare it is. I wonder why?

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Not sure why you keep saying this. I suppose it is because you cannot believe that people would actually disagree with you. We understand, and we disagree. We even have fences of our own...with GATES (I built mine myself). Knock yourself out trying to change the ordinance. Hey, if you can convince the city to mow the ROW for you, even better. We are simply disagreeing that it is a bad ordinance, or that the city should repeal it. Most of us actually like it. Otherwise, no one would mow any of the ROWs. That would be worse.

I was saying that because you appeared to be purposely obfuscating my argument in your effort to disagree with it.

I don't think Ordinance 10-451b is a bad ordinance on the whole. I'd like to see paragraph 10 in it reworded slightly - so that the City mows on streets that are behind houses and not easily accessed from them. That's all.

Actually, even if they didn't reword the ordinance; even if the City just started mowing in the areas I've refered to, I'd be happy.

I notice you won't tell us what thoroughfare it is. I wonder why?

worse.

For the record, the road in question is Fondren.

Finally, the last thing I'll say. My neighborhood and the others in the local Super Neighborhood are trying really hard to change it. But for now, in this neck of the woods, gates create a security concern.

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