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Decision 2008: McCain/Obama

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This is the new presidential election thread. I closed the old one because people got out of hand.

Certain people no longer have access to the Off Topic or Way Off Topic sections, including Politics, because they can't communicate on an adult level. I will not let this thread degenerate as far as the last one did. Anyone who gets out of hand this time will find their access to this section revoked.

  • Treat your fellow HAIFers with respect.
  • Do not make personal attacks.
  • Think before you post.

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EARLY VOTING ELECTION 2008

Early voting begins Monday morning, and runs until Friday, October 31. You may vote at any early voting location within your county of residence. A list of Harris County locations is at the link.

http://www.harrisvotes.com/docs/earlyvotin...Nov2008_ENG.pdf

Montgomery County Early Voting Locations

Edited by RedScare

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LOL. Don't mess with politics and religion. Honestly when I hear an Obama supporter like KinkaidAlum express the reasons why he's voting for Obama I have the upmost respect for him. But it seems like all the Obama supporters I know only talk about how we need "change" from Bush. Well, hell yeah we need change, but he's not running against Bush and I'm getting really tired of hearing that same argument over and over and over again. None of them can seem to communicate exactly what "change" is needed and if it's a good change. Those are the "sheep" I speak of. If you have actually compared the positions from each candidate and still support Obama then more power to you and know I am not refering to you.

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Cool, I hope everyone can be civil this time :)

LOL. Don't mess with politics and religion. Honestly when I hear an Obama supporter like KinkaidAlum express the reasons why he's voting for Obama I have the upmost respect for him. But it seems like all the Obama supporters I know only talk about how we need "change" from Bush. Well, hell yeah we need change, but he's not running against Bush and I'm getting really tired of hearing that same argument over and over and over again. None of them can seem to communicate exactly what "change" is needed and if it's a good change. Those are the "sheep" I speak of. If you have actually compared the positions from each candidate and still support Obama then more power to you and know I am not refering to you.
Edited by barracuda

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Early on, there was the experience debate, but Sarah Palin muted that advantage.

What Sara Palin did for you on McCain is exactly what Biden did for me on Obama.

I was leaning Obama until the Biden won the veepstakes. Then it felt like the whole "change" thing got thrown out the window. I guess I have to admit that, at the time, I'd bought into it a little bit, though I was still skeptical because there weren't a lot of specifics. But when Biden came on board, it was a big turn off. I don't see change coming from a man who's been in the Senate longer than I've been alive.

The Palin choice doesn't bother me nearly as much, I think primarily because I've been following her on and off for the last couple of years through the podcasts of the Alaska Public Radio Network. Her methods and history weren't a surprise to me as they were to most Americans because I was used to hearing about her.

I think it's interesting how some of the people I know harp on her inexperience, but not Barak Obama's. IMO, she's just as experienced as he is. In some ways she has more experience. But what's even more interesting to me is how the same people try to paint this as an election between Obama and Palin, and sometimes Obama versus McCain, but never ever do they mention Biden or Biden versus Palin.

I don't know if a vice presidential thread is warranted, but if someone thinks it is, feel free to start one.

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I think it's interesting how some of the people I know harp on her inexperience, but not Barak Obama's. IMO, she's just as experienced as he is. In some ways she has more experience.

I don't think experience is just about one's role in government. Obama was editor of the Harvard Law Review as a student. He went on to TEACH constitutional law. In contrast, Palin seems to have no knowledge of constitutional law at all, and a very limited knowledge of judicial history. The President and Congress are lawmakers; I don't understand why people poo-poo a law degree. It's critical education for these people. And Obama didn't just get any old law degree, he excelled at one of the best law schools in the country.

I realize that we as a nation don't value education, but I think that's really, well, uninformed. There is a chicken v. egg argument to be made here.

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I don't think experience is just about one's role in government. Obama was editor of the Harvard Law Review as a student. He went on to TEACH constitutional law. In contrast, Palin seems to have no knowledge of constitutional law at all, and a very limited knowledge of judicial history. The President and Congress are lawmakers; I don't understand why people poo-poo a law degree. It's critical education for these people. And Obama didn't just get any old law degree, he excelled at one of the best law schools in the country.

I realize that we as a nation don't value education, but I think that's really, well, uninformed. There is a chicken v. egg argument to be made here.

I certainly wasn't talking about Palin's academic prowess -- I think she did worse than even I did.

But she has leadership experience. She's led a city. She's the elected leader of a massive state. Obama, by contrast, as the junior Senator from Illinois has been a cog in Washington, and only for a very short time. Granted, he's been a very well publicized cog, but I respect being the leader of a state more than I do being one of 100 people trying to steer the country from an office building in Washington.

Again, I don't dispute Obama's educational achievements. Compared to Palin, Obama is the clear leader on that point. But that brings me back to what I said earlier -- why are we comparing the Republican VICE PRESIDENTIAL candidate to the Democrats' PRESIDENTIAL candidate. Working with your point -- shouldn't we be comparing Obama's knowledge of and experience with constitutional law to John McCain's knowledge and experience with the same?

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I agree that all four should be compared - but almost equally since VP is first in line for presidential succession. In this case, Palin spoils the whole batch. Also having small glimpses of who McCain might pick for cabinet positions doesn't help.

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What Sara Palin did for you on McCain is exactly what Biden did for me on Obama.

I think it's interesting how some of the people I know harp on her inexperience, but not Barak Obama's. IMO, she's just as experienced as he is. In some ways she has more experience. But what's even more interesting to me is how the same people try to paint this as an election between Obama and Palin, and sometimes Obama versus McCain, but never ever do they mention Biden or Biden versus Palin.

I don't know if a vice presidential thread is warranted, but if someone thinks it is, feel free to start one.

On the other hand, McCain's choice of Palin threw my off really badly. She's inexperienced. Well, so is Obama. But Obama's knowledge and intelligence dwarfs Palin's like apples to oranges? No. Like a 100 story skyscraper to little bungalow. Biden's knowledge and intelligence dwarf's hers by the same magnitude. So who does she compare to.

See McCain's candidacy is flawed from the start. It's not the best year for republicans. He's running against someone that stole 'change' message and saturated America with it, gathered fresh, young and energetic people and made them into a superb campaign crew, has no problem raising $$$$$ from new sources, has the toughest primary campaign in recent history and prevailed, against the Clinton machine (who by the way spoiled lots of fun for McCain by exhuming all Obama dirty deals and made them stale before GE).

McCain plainly didn't make the best choice with Palin. He wanted to shore up the republican base and win over Clinton supporters. Those are mutually exclusive events, and the republican base will vote for a baboon if it were the GOP nominee, so they need no shoring up. In the end he chose a candidate who is now a liability: can't do interviews or press conferences (a simple 'I choose not to answer that' is better than many of her replies), merely appearing at the debate became a milestone, has to appear with John most of the time, has to eat her words quite often. Even her SNL appearance is uninspiring. How is she helping John?

Obama's smartness and popular message makes him a good candidate, his vp choice makes him even more solid. John is a fine candidate ab initio, Palin watered that down a bit. Will John have been at this position if he had chosen any of the other likely candidate?

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I certainly wasn't talking about Palin's academic prowess -- I think she did worse than even I did.

But she has leadership experience. She's led a city. She's the elected leader of a massive state. Obama, by contrast, as the junior Senator from Illinois has been a cog in Washington, and only for a very short time. Granted, he's been a very well publicized cog, but I respect being the leader of a state more than I do being one of 100 people trying to steer the country from an office building in Washington.

Again, I don't dispute Obama's educational achievements. Compared to Palin, Obama is the clear leader on that point. But that brings me back to what I said earlier -- why are we comparing the Republican VICE PRESIDENTIAL candidate to the Democrats' PRESIDENTIAL candidate. Working with your point -- shouldn't we be comparing Obama's knowledge of and experience with constitutional law to John McCain's knowledge and experience with the same?

You are right Editor, what is happening since the nomination of Mrs. Palin is that the Obama supporters see her "perceived inexperiance" as a talking point to counteract the jabs at Obama's lack of experiance, ignoring the fact that she is not running gainst him, John Mccain is. I also believe that they are ignoring the fact that Biden is next in line behind Obama should something happen to him in office, which may be just as likely as Mccain keeling over. He does not exactly inspire change and hope even for them, where as Mccain and Palin are both all "mavericky" (for lack of a better word, haha) and cut from the same vein.

It probably represents a generational shift as well. Voters today probably don't care about someone's past drug use as compared to voters in the early 90's. It's just not that taboo a subject any more.

I'm still alive and I voted in the 90's??

And it still matters to me actually it matters more to me as I have aged.

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This is the new presidential election thread. I closed the old one because people got out of hand.

Certain people no longer have access to the Off Topic or Way Off Topic sections, including Politics, because they can't communicate on an adult level. I will not let this thread degenerate as far as the last one did. Anyone who gets out of hand this time will find their access to this section revoked.

  • Treat your fellow HAIFers with respect.
  • Do not make personal attacks.
  • Think before you post.

I for one appreciate the option to discuss this with civility. I do not necessarily believe that because I disagree with someone that they are evil or bad, or even wrong for that matter.

for the record, I voted for Senator Obama in the primary, and will vote for him again in the general election.

once again, I appreciate the concerted effort toward civility

I speak out with my vote, and you should too

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As these posts reflect, the voting public is not monolithic, and neither are their requirements, or the order in which they place them. Change to most people does not mean change every single policy, and not every voter wants every policy changed. Since no candidate is a perfect fit for every voters views, one must prioritize the differences. Joe Biden may not represent change in the traditional sense, but he very much represents a change from preemptive war and aggressive war posturing in foreign policy. In that small area, he DOES represent change to me, change from Bush's war stance, and McCain's promise to continue down that road.

I believe that there are attempts to pigeonhole attributes and shortcomings of the candidates. This is not how people judge character and ability in real life, and it is not how one should judge presidential candidates. Perhaps it is the poor debating skills of voters, the ulterior motives of the media, but it is not how one assesses people. I look at the whole package. I look for intelligence, not just from the books, but also how one deals with an issue in which he/she is not well versed. In this sense, Biden and Sarah Palin are important to me not just for what they know, but for the people who picked them.

The Biden pick suggested to me that Obama surrounds himself with knowledgable people. He is weak on foreign policy, so he picks someone who knows foreign policy. In spite of attempts earlier this summer to paint him as arrogant and elitist, this showed me that he is more concerned with getting it right than being the one who thought of it. By way of contrast, McCain picked someone who does him no good on national and international issues. He appears not to be interested in other people's thoughts or opinions. This is reminiscent of George Bush's personality, and it bothered me. A president is not an expert on every issue that comes before him or her. He must take advice from others to be effective. McCain's choice for VP is an early indicator of how he would handle this challenge. I was unimpressed.

The experience issue is not as important to me as one's thought process. Can the person think on a large scale and is that thought process impaired by pressure? Admittedly, no one had any idea whether Obama could do this back in 2007. But, after 20 months of a grueling campaign, one run extremely well, those fears are diminished. Palin is where Obama was 20 months ago, and McCain is keeping her an unknown. I might be wrong by thinking she is incompetent, but it is McCain's fault that I think so, not mine. And the experience thing here is a non-starter. Mayor of a town of 6,000, or even governor of a largely unihabited state means little. I no more think that my experience running a 4 person law office qualifies me to step in and run Exxon-Mobil tomorrow than being mayor of a town of 6,000 qualifies Palin to run the US. That's the scale we are dealing with here. I MIGHT could run Exxon, but you can't tell from what little you know about me right now.

When all is said and done, each voter decides what is important to them. Some will decide based on party affiliation. Some on race or gender. Some on single issue political stances, such as abortion or Iraq, or even esoteric terms, such as liberal or conservative. I am basing my vote on a combination of things, some more important than others. Frankly, the economy concerns me the most, and neither candidate is an expert in economics. In that situation, I looked to which candidate displays the most ability to comprehend the crisis, and who appears to be getting (or is listening to) the best advice during his campaign. And, on that basis, Obama appears immensely more qualified to me.

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My last undecided friend just came out for Obama. She voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004 (yes, there are Republicans in Boston). Powell's endorsement was the thing that did it.

She's always liked Obama's message and she's been turned off by McCain's dirty campaign (we get N.H. commercials down here in Boston) but she was worried about Obama's lack of experience. She felt a little better with the Biden pick but she said she has always admired Powell and what he represents and that if he can be comfortable with Obama than she can too.

She's the only close friend that I had left who wasn't quite sure about how to vote. Everyone else seems to have made up their mind last January!

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The Biden pick suggested to me that Obama surrounds himself with knowledgable people. He is weak on foreign policy, so he picks someone who knows foreign policy. In spite of attempts earlier this summer to paint him as arrogant and elitist, this showed me that he is more concerned with getting it right than being the one who thought of it. By way of contrast, McCain picked someone who does him no good on national and international issues. He appears not to be interested in other people's thoughts or opinions. This is reminiscent of George Bush's personality, and it bothered me. A president is not an expert on every issue that comes before him or her. He must take advice from others to be effective. McCain's choice for VP is an early indicator of how he would handle this challenge. I was unimpressed.

McCain should have picked a running mate who was strong on economic issues. That would have made the race much more competitive.

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She's always liked Obama's message and she's been turned off by McCain's dirty campaign

That's the second time in the last three days I've heard someone say something like that. I make note of it because it runs contrary to the article I read a week or so earlier which stated the Obama had run (in terms of quantity) significantly more negative ads, and that he started it months before McCain.

I rarely see any McCain ads here in Chicago. Waste of money.

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McCain should have picked a running mate who was strong on economic issues. That would have made the race much more competitive.

Yea, he picked Palin b/c she was a woman and he wanted to get all of the ticked off Hillary supporters... how bad did that backfire! :P

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McCain should have picked a running mate who was strong on economic issues. That would have made the race much more competitive.

He really should have picked Mitt Romney. That would have helped him out a lot. McCain would most likely be up in a lot of polls now. Not saying in front of Obama, but at least more competitive.

Edited by Trae

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That's the second time in the last three days I've heard someone say something like that. I make note of it because it runs contrary to the article I read a week or so earlier which stated the Obama had run (in terms of quantity) significantly more negative ads, and that he started it months before McCain.

I rarely see any McCain ads here in Chicago. Waste of money.

Yeah I hear the same thing a lot, McCain this and That, he's desperate because he's losing. Well here's todays from Factcheck.org

Obama's False Medicare Claim

October 20, 2008

He accuses McCain of proposing to cut benefits. Not true.

Summary

In a TV ad and in speeches, Obama is making bogus claims that McCain plans to cut $880 billion from Medicare spending and to reduce benefits.

A TV spot says McCain's plan requires "cuts in benefits, eligibility or both."

Obama said in a speech that McCain plans "cuts" that would force seniors to "pay more for your drugs, receive fewer services, and get lower quality care."

These claims are false, and based on a single newspaper report that says no such thing. McCain's policy director states unequivocally that no benefit cuts are envisioned. McCain does propose substantial "savings" through such means as cutting fraud, increased use of information technology in medicine and better handling of expensive chronic diseases. Obama himself proposes some of the same cost-saving measures. We're skeptical that either candidate can deliver the savings they promise, but that's no basis for Obama to accuse McCain of planning huge benefit cuts.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/ob...care_claim.html

100% Negative?

Obama falsely claimed all of McCain's ads had been "negative."

Obama: And 100 percent, John, of your ads

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That's the second time in the last three days I've heard someone say something like that. I make note of it because it runs contrary to the article I read a week or so earlier which stated the Obama had run (in terms of quantity) significantly more negative ads, and that he started it months before McCain.

I rarely see any McCain ads here in Chicago. Waste of money.

We see tons of ads here in Boston because almost all of Southern New Hampshire is in the Boston market. Southern New Hampshire (Portsmouth, Manchester, Nashua, Concord, etc...) is where the people are.

If you want to see a nasty campaign, then look at the Senate race in New Hampshire. Sununu and Shaheen's ads are hilariously negative. They are both running anti-Bush ads too, which is really interesting sense Bush carried N.H. in 2000 and almost beat Kerry in 2004. He is wildly unpopular there now.

The most "negative" ad I've seen of Obama's ties McCain to Bush (his voting record). The most negative ad I've seen of McCain's talks about Ayers, links to shady characters, and "socialist" medicine.

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The line at the West Gray community center was insane. I waited for an hour as the line creeped along. Having finally reached the head of the line, I was presented with the straight blue or red vote. Nope. Skipped that one.

Well, I consider myself the first HAIFer to Vote. Although it is my right to keep my vote secret, for the sake of disclosure and the ability to piss a few people off: I voted for McCain/Palin and now my vote IS cast.

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The line at the West Gray community center was insane. I waited for an hour as the line creeped along. Having finally reached the head of the line, I was presented with the straight blue or red vote. Nope. Skipped that one.

Well, I consider myself the first HAIFer to Vote. Although it is my right to keep my vote secret, for the sake of disclosure and the ability to piss a few people off: I voted for McCain/Palin and now my vote IS cast.

thank you for your participation in the electoral process

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The line at the West Gray community center was insane. I waited for an hour as the line creeped along. Having finally reached the head of the line, I was presented with the straight blue or red vote. Nope. Skipped that one.

Well, I consider myself the first HAIFer to Vote. Although it is my right to keep my vote secret, for the sake of disclosure and the ability to piss a few people off: I voted for McCain/Palin and now my vote IS cast.

I've never voted a straight ticket either, though I admit that sometimes, when I get to about the 40th screen listing county judges, I sort of wish I had!

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The line at the West Gray community center was insane.

A tip for anyone near downtown, I recommend Ripley House on Navigation. I've used it before for early voting, no waiting at all. Yesterday they reportedly had fewer than 400 people all day.

Plus, it's right down the street from Ninfas for apres'-voting margaritas. :)

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McCain was asking Russia for money.

That's after taunting them last summer, so the Russians apparently told the media.

That's something I think is wrong. American political candidates shouldn't be funded by people overseas. I don't know how long it's been going on, but it's been going on for years. Probably at least since the 60's, if not before.

This election cycle Hillary raised millions in Ireland. And who knows how much Obama raised during his European tour. Since the donors aren't American citizens, they aren't restricted by the campaign finance laws that Americans are, so they probably don't even have to disclose the donations.

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A tip for anyone near downtown, I recommend Ripley House on Navigation. I've used it before for early voting, no waiting at all. Yesterday they reportedly had fewer than 400 people all day.

Plus, it's right down the street from Ninfas for apres'-voting margaritas. :)

Thanks for the idea... I might combine voting with a brief tour of Eastwood. Any suggestions for an interesting drive route from Eastenders?

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John McCain has one foot in a nursing home, the other one in the grave.

I don't want Sarah Palin as my president.

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Thanks for the idea... I might combine voting with a brief tour of Eastwood. Any suggestions for an interesting drive route from Eastenders?

These are just general boundaries to create a google map....S. Lockwood b/w Harrisburg and Leeland is roughly the central street that runs through Eastwood. You can use that as a guide. Most of the nicest homes are on the west side of Lockwood. Driving down Harrisburg, Canal and Navigation also gives a feel for the near east end. The industrial areas and railyards closest to downtown are also neat, you'll see the rapid growth in townhomes. It's a pretty compact area. Cullen and Scott are easy access points from 45. Polk is a major east-west street in the hood, and McKinney and Walker are nice for checking out the houses.

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The line at the West Gray community center was insane. I waited for an hour as the line creeped along. Having finally reached the head of the line, I was presented with the straight blue or red vote. Nope. Skipped that one.

It's always long there... that's where I go to vote. I think I may instead go to the voting place at Moody Park just north of Downtown... it's close to me, also... probably shorter lines there.

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The downtown office at 1001 Preston never seems to be busy, at least not on weekends.

I have voted early there the past few times and it was practically empty, plus it's extremely easy to get to by rail.

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I have voted early there the past few times and it was practically empty, plus it's extremely easy to get to by rail.

Not if you live in the Heights. ha ha ha :lol: I miss my condo in the Med Center... was 2 blocks from rail... selling current house and planning on moving back there.

Edited by HtownWxBoy

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Grim news for McCain supporters.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27295062#27295062

Chuck Todd is one of the few numbers guys I listen to. McCain's big problem appears to be the same one he has had all along. His campaign is poorly run. And Obama's is well run. If the volunteers in these tight states are not performing, it can have a devestating effect on the electoral vote.

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John McCain has one foot in a nursing home, the other one in the grave.

I don't want Sarah Palin as my president.

...not quite... he has one foot on a banana peel, the other in the grave...

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These are just general boundaries to create a google map....S. Lockwood b/w Harrisburg and Leeland is roughly the central street that runs through Eastwood. You can use that as a guide. Most of the nicest homes are on the west side of Lockwood. Driving down Harrisburg, Canal and Navigation also gives a feel for the near east end. The industrial areas and railyards closest to downtown are also neat, you'll see the rapid growth in townhomes. It's a pretty compact area. Cullen and Scott are easy access points from 45. Polk is a major east-west street in the hood, and McKinney and Walker are nice for checking out the houses.

merci... I will try to tour this week!

Edited by sarahiki

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Grim news for McCain supporters.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27295062#27295062

Chuck Todd is one of the few numbers guys I listen to. McCain's big problem appears to be the same one he has had all along. His campaign is poorly run. And Obama's is well run. If the volunteers in these tight states are not performing, it can have a devestating effect on the electoral vote.

Chuck Todd is good.

He knows what he is talking about. The truth is, and the latest NBC poll points it out, McCain supporters are a lot less excited about McCain than Obama supporters are about Obama. You're seeing it with record fundraising (by dollars and donors) and you're seeing it with campaign volunteers. I have friends heading out from Boston to go to New Hampshire, Indiana, Virginia, and North Carolina to get out the vote. I am heading to Virginia to meet a friend from high school who lives in DC. We're then heading to Richmond to volunteer there for the 4 days prior to election day.

I have about 8 friends who are voting for McCain. They aren't giving him money. They aren't giving him time. And, none of them are even bothering to vote early.

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Palin's Kids Travel On Government Dime

That Sarah Palin, she sure is a reformer all right.

RNC Spends Over $150,000 on Palin's clothes In One Month

Anyone remember the brouhaha over John Edwards' $400 haircut? Well, the people that claimed $400 haircuts proved Edwards was out of touch with mainstream America have just spent $150,000 on clothes for Sarah Six-Pack. That's right....4 years salary for Joe the Plumber for a little over one month's worth of clothes for our beloved hockey mom. But, don't worry, it's Barack Obama who is the elitist. ;)

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Hey, you don't want your next VP looking shabby do you? ^_^

Not at all. Alaskan governor only needs to do that from her allowances; and admit that shopping at high end fashion stores in New York is elitist, Joe the plumber her hero can't afford it. Is that asking for too mucho?

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PuroAztlan is bored with this election already.

I agree, this is boring, but probably not for the same reasons you think so.

You could make it more interesting by explaining why you support Obama. I understand that you apparently don't think the president should get chilly in the grocery store, but that seems like a rather scurrilous reason for your vote.

Please don't just say, "Obama is not Bush/a neocon/mean" or just use the words "hope" and "change". I could say the same things about McCain, but that's not why I am voting for him.

What POLICIES of Obama's do you support and why? Be specific.

I would be happy to respond in kind and perhaps this wouldn't be so boring, no?

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I agree, this is boring, but probably not for the same reasons you think so. You could make it more interesting by explaining why you support Obama. I understand that you apparently don't think the president should get chilly in the grocery store, but that seems like a rather scurrilous reason for your vote. Please don't just say, "Obama is not Bush/a neocon/mean"; or just use the words "hope" and "change".

Hope and change.

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