Ion District In Midtown

[HoustonIsHome]

That's why Houston is struggling to build up density. We have a building surrounded on all sides with empty lots and the one building onsight has interest because it's different and hold done nostalgia for many Houstonians and y'all wanna flatten.

 

I could understand if this was not structurally sound and the area is running out of space but there is nothing around this thing. And soon too be more nothing once 59 construction gets on the way and I hear it tear it down.

 

At least if they restore the store fronts there will be some appeal from the train. The vast majority of new buildings have little ground floor appeal. Even attractive buildings such as 609 main. 

 

 

An attractive mixed material midrise  ( think Aris) can go up on the parking lot north of this building.

 

They can continue the theme across the street to the east with similar materials. This lot is huge and could accommodate another large midrise on top of parking.

 

Then the same can be done for the fiesta site. Or something completely different as a building on the middle lot would totally obsucure the Sears building. 

 

Anyway these three sites can accommodate 5 hilcorp sized buildings. That's a lot of space. I don't know why can't we retain a little bit of nostalgia

[j_cuevas713]

20 hours ago, Vy65 said:

It can have all the history it wants (putting aside the sad ridiculousness of treating a Sears as a cultural landmark). It’s still a dillapadated concrete block. Even with some Art Deco flair, I’d want better for a tech hub.

I'm just glad you aren't part of city planning. 

[htownproud]

Are they going to punch windows in the upper floors?  I continue to believe that the lack of windows will make this a hard sell for 20-year old innovators (note that the buildings pictured above have tons of windows).  

[houstontexasjack]

2 hours ago, htownproud said:

Are they going to punch windows in the upper floors?  I continue to believe that the lack of windows will make this a hard sell for 20-year old innovators (note that the buildings pictured above have tons of windows).  

 

This project is using James Carpenter as one of the architects, whose specialty appears to be the use of light:

 

http://www.jcdainc.com/news/rice-university-to-transform-iconic-sears-property

[samagon]

On 5/12/2018 at 9:42 AM, dbigtex56 said:

There's a peculiar sense of pride that some Houstonians take in their ignorance of and contempt for the preservation and renovation of architecturally significant old buildings. The words 'dilapidated' (sometimes spelled correctly), 'eyesore', and 'outdated' are featured prominently in their criticisms.

 

There's just as much overuse of the term 'architecturally significant' when describing old buildings. Especially old buildings that the people who call it architecturally significant have no money invested in.

 

This building is not architecturally significant. 

 

That doesn't mean it needs to be razed. Honestly, that decision is up to the owner of the property. If they want to raze it, so be it, if they want to spruce it up and make it look more like it did when it was first built, so be it. They own it, they can do what they like to it. 

 

It looks like they chose to spruce it up. With the appropriate amount of sprucing, it might actually become an architecturally (and culturally) significant building. After they're done though, it might also end up being just as forgettable as the box it's been for years. 

[Texasota]

That's not how architectural significance works. Architectural significance doesn't mean "fancy." And just because you don't like something or think it's boring, that doesn't mean it's not significant. 

[dbigtex56]

Quote

1 hour ago, samagon said:

This building is not architecturally significant.

A matter of opinion, to be sure. No one is claiming that it's in the same category as Radio City Music Hall or the Chrysler Building. It's a 1930s department store, designed in a workmanship-like manner by proven architects of the era. To current and future generations who weren't around when free-standing department stores were the norm, and may be unfamiliar with the late Art Deco/Moderne style, it is instructive and therefore significant.

 

1 hour ago, samagon said:

They own it, they can do what they like to it. 

This straw-man argument is at the core of much of the opposition to historic preservation in Houston. Of course it is, and they can. Houston has some of the weakest preservation laws in the nation. Heck, the house that stood on the lot that the Sears building now occupies was much more architecturally significant.
Rigid laws regarding preservation is a two-edged sword; it has saved such places as Greenwich Village in NYC and the French Quarter in NOLA, both of which are beloved features of their respective cities and a draw for tourism. Many visitors to Houston are disappointed to find that that only a handful of 19th century buildings have survived. On the other hand, the restrictions and red tape associated with historic preservation can discourage new development and investment.
Owning something and having the right to do with it as you please doesn't make one immune to public opinion, and sometimes criticism. There are local developers and businesses who have found out the hard way that ignoring public opinion comes at a price. I'd be surprised if the officials at Rice University didn't take into account that many Houstonians have an affection for this building.

[rechlin]

More cladding is off, exposing more places for windows.  I think they could probably add a bunch more windows without compromising the architecture, too.  Photo from last night:

 

[dbigtex56]

(If moderators think this should be a separate thread please feel free to create one)
There's been a lot of discussion about windows and the lack thereof in the Sears building. Everyone seems to be in agreement that windows are a desirable addition to an office or workspace environment.
If or when Fiesta vacates their building at the end of the lease, and if this building is also to be utilized as part of the tech center, won't windows also be an issue with that building?
Fortunately for the redevelopers, it's pretty much a blank slate. Not much effort was put into creating an architectural style in 1980s supermarkets, and punching windows in the exterior walls should be easily accomplished. However, only the perimeter would benefit. Those stuck in the middle would still be a long way from the closest window.
An atrium would resolve that problem. Imagine a garden in the center of the building, surrounded by windows. It could be a pleasant place for workers to enjoy breaks or lunch, and provide more natural light to the rest of the building. A mezzanine level could be added to compensate for the lost productive space.
Thoughts?

[MarathonMan]

I don’t think there’s been any discussion of converting the Fiesta.  And I’d guess that most would agree that there isn’t much architectural significance to the Fiesta building.  I’d wager that it comes down.  

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

3 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

An atrium would resolve that problem. Imagine a garden in the center of the building, surrounded by windows. It could be a pleasant place for workers to enjoy breaks or lunch, and provide more natural light to the rest of the building. A mezzanine level could be added to compensate for the lost productive space.
Thoughts?

 

the building is certainly large enough to where an atrium with skywalks would fit perfectly, and would make a nice feature for the building

[dbigtex56]

8 hours ago, MarathonMan said:

I don’t think there’s been any discussion of converting the Fiesta.  And I’d guess that most would agree that there isn’t much architectural significance to the Fiesta building.  I’d wager that it comes down.  

That's certainly a possibility.
On the other hand, seems like it would be cheaper to re-hab an existing building than to raze it and start again, and there may be are always budget constraints.
Money spent on a glitzy new building could better be spent on gizmos that would be useful for research and development, such as environmental chambers and 'clean' rooms.

[cspwal]

Rehabbing a modern building like the Fiesta shouldn't cost too much - there's not much change in fire-codes, it'll be a similar use, etc, but the main issue is how useful a one story building (maybe with a mezzanine) is for the plans compared to knocking it down and building a new 3 or 4 story building

[Brooklyn173]

Maybe it's just me, but I thought the reference to Fiesta and design decisions was just sarcasm regarding the 'love' for the Sears building.

[dbigtex56]

3 hours ago, Brooklyn173 said:

Maybe it's just me, but I thought the reference to Fiesta and design decisions was just sarcasm regarding the 'love' for the Sears building.

No intended sarcasm here.
Aside from both being retail outlets, the two are dissimilar. Sears spent the extra money to make the statement that this is a modern store, substantial, where quality items are sold. Fiesta is a bare-bones box with a token façade slapped on, where a wide variety of groceries can be purchased inexpensively. No further statement needed.
Because Sears abuts the Main Street corridor, aesthetics play a larger role. Fiesta? I hope they gussy up the exterior a bit, but the main concern (if, indeed it is under consideration) is creating more square footage of workspace. Preferably pleasant.
An aside: many years ago I worked in the R&D building of a well-known instrument manufacturer. That building had no windows whatsoever. No one liked it, but the engineers still came to work.

[Specwriter]

3 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

An aside: many years ago I worked in the R&D building of a well-known instrument manufacturer. That building had no windows whatsoever. No one liked it, but the engineers still came to work.

Years ago I worked on a 500,000 sq. ft. tilt wall building that had been used as a ware house. The design called for installing sky lights which defined corridors in the space and a mezzanine in part of the structure to increase the office floor space. The employees loved it because the alternative was to build an new facility further away from where they all lived and with the diffuse lighting from the sky lights the space was actually pleasant. The city loved it because it kept the tax base strong.

[IronTiger]

17 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

No intended sarcasm here.
Aside from both being retail outlets, the two are dissimilar. Sears spent the extra money to make the statement that this is a modern store, substantial, where quality items are sold. Fiesta is a bare-bones box with a token façade slapped on, where a wide variety of groceries can be purchased inexpensively. No further statement needed.
Because Sears abuts the Main Street corridor, aesthetics play a larger role. Fiesta? I hope they gussy up the exterior a bit, but the main concern (if, indeed it is under consideration) is creating more square footage of workspace. Preferably pleasant.
An aside: many years ago I worked in the R&D building of a well-known instrument manufacturer. That building had no windows whatsoever. No one liked it, but the engineers still came to work.

Yeah, the Sears was built in 1939 while Fiesta came in-line 50 years later, and looks very similar to how it did from that period, including that track marquee lighting. What I'm confused about is the actual lease agreements. An article from the time that Fiesta opened says that Sears sub-leased to Fiesta, and prior to Fiesta there was a parking lot there. Sears, on the other hand, was a 99-year lease from Rice that Rice bought back early. However, in the 1940s and 1950s, Sears only had half of the block bounded by San Jacinto/Eagle/Caroline/Wheeler, the other half was houses, and in the late 1970s aerial you could see the difference in the paving where those houses were cleared for additional parking (this "additional parking" didn't last long, by 1989 it was the Fiesta).

 

So....did Rice always own those houses, and then lease that land to Sears later on a different lease, or did Sears buy out that land itself? If the former is true, then Rice had to have made one more purchase, and if the latter is true, then there's nothing Rice can do since Sears is still sub-leasing Fiesta, unless Rice bought that too. But if Rice bought the Fiesta out, then why is it still operating and Sears isn't? You could argue that Sears is not doing well, but Fiesta has shown to empty out quickly if there's a better commercial interest waiting in the wings, and if the land Fiesta sits on is too valuable to continue operating as a grocery store, Rice wouldn't hesitate to bump it out as part of their "Innovation District" plan.

[dbigtex56]

2 hours ago, IronTiger said:

But if Rice bought the Fiesta out, then why is it still operating and Sears isn't?

 

According to HCAD records, WILLIAM MARSH RICE UNIVERSITY bought 4200 San Jacinto St. from Sears on 10/4/2017.
Just speculating, but they may be concentrating their efforts on renovating and filling the Sears building while collecting rent from Fiesta. If and when they need to expand, they'll have the space to do so.
edit: And Sears is no longer operating because...it's Sears.  "[T]he struggling retailer said it told associates at 64 Kmart and 39 Sears stores that the locations will be shut down between early March and early April 2018."

Edited May 19, 2018 by dbigtex56
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[IronTiger]

5 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

 

According to HCAD records, WILLIAM MARSH RICE UNIVERSITY bought 4200 San Jacinto St. from Sears on 10/4/2017.
Just speculating, but they may be concentrating their efforts on renovating and filling the Sears building while collecting rent from Fiesta. If and when they need to expand, they'll have the space to do so.
edit: And Sears is no longer operating because...it's Sears.  "[T]he struggling retailer said it told associates at 64 Kmart and 39 Sears stores that the locations will be shut down between early March and early April 2018."

 

So Sears really DID own the Fiesta. I don't believe the Sears was part of the shut down, it shut down early and wasn't on closing lists. They are selling off what locations they can if the price is reasonable, for all I know, the Midtown Sears was actually profitable (just not as profitable as selling back the lease). So I'm guessing Sears sold back their 99-year lease AND the Fiesta in one fell swoop, which is probably why Fiesta is still operational and Sears isn't. The Sears building is of course the more interesting but less profitable building.

[dbigtex56]

3 hours ago, IronTiger said:

for all I know, the Midtown Sears was actually profitable

You're correct that Midtown Sears closed prior to the ones announced in the link I provided.
I don't claim any expertise about profit margins on retail, but I noticed that the Midtown Sears discontinued its paint department several years ago, then electronics, and its optical department. Because the location is convenient for me, I've shopped there occasionally over the years, and often the employees outnumbered the customers. It was grim.
I feel pretty sure that taxes and utilities would have exceeded any profits. I was not surprised when its closing was announced.

[Houston19514]

18 hours ago, IronTiger said:

Yeah, the Sears was built in 1939 while Fiesta came in-line 50 years later, and looks very similar to how it did from that period, including that track marquee lighting. What I'm confused about is the actual lease agreements. An article from the time that Fiesta opened says that Sears sub-leased to Fiesta, and prior to Fiesta there was a parking lot there. Sears, on the other hand, was a 99-year lease from Rice that Rice bought back early. However, in the 1940s and 1950s, Sears only had half of the block bounded by San Jacinto/Eagle/Caroline/Wheeler, the other half was houses, and in the late 1970s aerial you could see the difference in the paving where those houses were cleared for additional parking (this "additional parking" didn't last long, by 1989 it was the Fiesta).

 

So....did Rice always own those houses, and then lease that land to Sears later on a different lease, or did Sears buy out that land itself? If the former is true, then Rice had to have made one more purchase, and if the latter is true, then there's nothing Rice can do since Sears is still sub-leasing Fiesta, unless Rice bought that too. But if Rice bought the Fiesta out, then why is it still operating and Sears isn't? You could argue that Sears is not doing well, but Fiesta has shown to empty out quickly if there's a better commercial interest waiting in the wings, and if the land Fiesta sits on is too valuable to continue operating as a grocery store, Rice wouldn't hesitate to bump it out as part of their "Innovation District" plan.

 

 

From the Rice Thresher: " Rice’s property also includes theFiesta Mart store located at 4200 San Jacinto St., but the store is not expected to be affected by this sale during the two-year remainder of itslease , according to the statement. "

[Urbannizer]

https://houston-texas-us.blogspot.com/2018/05/midtown-sears-with-facade-cover-up-gone.html?m=1

 

 

 

 

[j_cuevas713]

Damn removing the cladding alone makes the neighborhood feel better. 

[houstontexasjack]

On another forum, I saw a link to the development map below.  One item of interest is number 32 under the Central Houston New Construction plot, regarding a high rise at 4510 Main St:

 

https://www.berkadia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Q2-2018-New-Development-Maps_Houston-FINAL.pdf

 

This would be very close the land Rice University owns as part of its plan for an "innovation district" by the old Sears.  I've not yet heard anything else regarding the development.

[dbigtex56]

4 hours ago, houstontexasjack said:

On another forum, I saw a link to the development map below.  One item of interest is number 32 under the Central Houston New Construction plot, regarding a high rise at 4510 Main St:

This plot is adjacent to (or nearly so) the recently demolished 411 Richmond Ave Gulf Gas Station. Coincidence? (and I wish they'd fix the link function): https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39247-411-richmond-ave-gulf-gas-station/

[houstontexasjack]

2 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

This plot is adjacent to (or nearly so) the recently demolished 411 Richmond Ave Gulf Gas Station. Coincidence? (and I wish they'd fix the link function): https://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/39247-411-richmond-ave-gulf-gas-station/

Indeed, I think they are. HCAD discloses 411 Richmond was acquired by an entity called “401 Richmond LLC” (yes, it’s 401 not 411) about June 19, 2018. 4510 Main was acquired by an entity called “4510 S Main LLC” about June 15, 2018. Both LLC’s share the same mailing address at 6100 Main St., Houston, TX 77005—which is at Rice University (it’s the same mailing address Rice uses for the Fiesta). Looks like Rice may have picked up a couple more parcels.

 

[houstontexasjack]

I mentioned this in the Midtown forum, but thought I’d also share here. It looks like Rice picked up more land in this area at 411 Richmond and 4510 S. Main St. HCAD indicates two different LLC’s acquired these plots in mid-June. Both LLC’s have a mailing address of 6100 S. Main St, Houston, TX 77005–the same address Rice uses for mail for the Fiesta.

 

Edit:  The account information for 4510 S Main LLC is account no. 0250210000001.  The account information for 401 Richmond LLC is 

0250230000009.  The Warranty Deeds are respectively recorded as  RP-2018-268638 and RP-2018-273779, and each indicate "c/o William Marsh Rice University."

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by houstontexasjack

[houstontexasjack]

This link from the Caydon thread suggests a high rise is going up at 4510 Main:

 

https://www.berkadia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Q2-2018-New-Development-Maps_Houston-FINAL.pdf

 

[CaptainJilliams]

^ I hope some form of infill, hopefully in the form of a high rise, comes to fruition in this part of Midtown. This area desperately needs it.

 

I went to Under the Radar Brewery a couple weekends ago and the area around the Wheeler light rail station made my skin crawl. A lot of trash, small camps, and pan handlers in a small area. Once the Sears is restored and other projects go up around it, I hope the area begins to see a turnaround. It feels really disconnecting to drive through all the new developments in Midtown (Australian High Rises, Camden, etc.) only to drive through this area on your way to TMC. 

[Timoric]

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Edited July 12, 2019 by Timoric