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no gpc is required to eat menudo.

Did you happen to notice the topic? The topic deals with yet another planned TOD in Dallas. What is that now? 8 billion in private investment in completed and planned TODs in DFW? I think it could be more than that. What is the expected population of 3000 apartments? 4,500? Maybe more? This is south of downtown Dallas. In the near future, one can see the whole area around downtown Dallas as well developed. These people here would certainly help the retail develop in downtown Dallas which too is gaining a sizable after hours population.

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last time i was there, the tod i passed was empty.

A TOD can't mature if after it is completed it fills up. I don't think Mockingbird Station started off considered to be the best TOD in the nation. It had to mature some.

Look, one has to wonder what Las Colinas is going to look like when its many billions of dollars of private investment in TODs are completed. Las Colinas started off as an office park -- with pictures of its expected appearance looking something like Hong Kong -- before it evolved into the kind of business district it is today -- urban type apartment development. Now it is evolving again into a different kind of urban animal. Whatever that animal looks like, it is going to be massive and unique.

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Whatever that animal looks like, it is going to be massive and unique.

i guess the chronicle article here was wrong. it clearly said dallas was having problems populating a tod. did you see anything similar there?

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i guess the chronicle article here was wrong. it clearly said dallas was having problems populating a tod. did you see anything similar there?

No. The article wasn't wrong. They are probably having problems but I would never bet against the real estate industry in DFW. It is just relentless when it comes to figuring out how to do something right. They do have the idea formula established in Mockingbird Station. The Park Lane development will probably find similar success according to ravings about it.

Central Expressway is actually somewhat of a gamble because of the huge population of people who live along it between Central Dallas and the Telecom area in Richardson. This creates failure because most residents living in the TOD don't even ride the transit because of the seediness of some of the underling population.

This type of a huge population does not exist between Central Dallas and Las Colinas, however. When driving from DFW airport to downtown Dallas along 114, I only saw houses once outside of the new housing that is being developed in Las Colinas. It is just a 15 mile stretch of warehouses, hotels, hospitals, market hall buildings and office buildings. So, this improves the chances of the TODs succeeding along this corridor when compared to Central Expressway because most of the future traffic expected to ride on this line will come from TODs that are as of yet unbuilt.

To be honest, I think politics more than anything doom the TODs in the city of Dallas. Any developer in his or her right mind should not trust a city that is allergic to the word "Industrial."

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The Dallas Morning News had a similar story I believe not too long ago.

I think Uptown is a bubble that burst during the Industrial Blvd. political scandal and the Hispanics, African Americans and Anglos living in and around Central Dallas are the ones who will have to pay as a consequence. There is a lot of stress on all the developments of course but the metropolitan area generally explodes out of recessions.

Uptown has been a vacuum lately where it seems not much has been happening outside of it. But that anomaly just can't continue to happen and I think developers have come to realize this. There is just too much development going on in DFW as a whole to justify the spread out development in Uptown also. The development is going to have to be focussed in the future and that will probably be the area of the new expanded Art's District. Proof of this is the 42 story Museum tower that is still going up as planned while Victory had to throw in the towel on its planned tower of equal size. Perhaps Victory will become the new stalled Reunion development in the future?

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Last I heard, Museum Tower is stalled, too. Dallas has a huge oversupply in condos. Something like 18 months right now.

No way the Museum Tower won't be built. They are portioning out the privileges to own one for a limited time. They are expected to be bought up by people from all around the world because of the Arts District. Figure that phenomenon alone could build and sell out a few more condominium projects around that district as momentum continues to build around the opening of the new Art's District expansion.

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I dont think people are moving there solely because of the arts district.

In other words, Trae, if you choose to buy a condo today you have the freedom to do so. In the future, that freedom will go away as they will be the ones to choose who buys the remaining condos. So, the demand is plentiful.

There was an article yesterday on the increased demand for office space in the Art's District. Figure that future demand could squeeze available space causing buildings to be built higher in that vicinity. It does look like the premium area in Central Dallas will be considered around the Arts District. This does not bode well for the Victory or Harwood projects to the south.

:lol::lol::lol:

It was a great middle school quip, wasn't it? :lol:

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play nice guys.

i think musicman was poking fun at the screen name rather than a personal attack.

frankly, i'm quite jealous of museum tower and would love to see that kind of tower in houston. i hope it gets built one way or the other. it's a beautiful design.

on the topic at hand, i'm no longer familiar with dallas' transit situation.

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play nice guys.

i think musicman was poking fun at the screen name rather than a personal attack.

frankly, i'm quite jealous of museum tower and would love to see that kind of tower in houston. i hope it gets built one way or the other. it's a beautiful design.

on the topic at hand, i'm no longer familiar with dallas' transit situation.

The area in Dallas is just south of downtown and was the location of a massive refrigerated warehouse. This gives Dallas the opportunity to build a legitimate TOD. Let me see if I can post the location on a map here.

http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG...71%2C-96.799899

This type of development here is representative of the types that will be located in Las Colinas with its over 4 billion dollars worth of personal investment in TODs.

Edited by nucklehead
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What other parts of the world exactly?

From the parts of the world where people live above the water? I don't know how to answer this exactly. Let us just say that there are millions of zillionaires living out there who might desire to throw down a few bucks to buy a condo in close proximity to a cities premier district. I think the Arts District is becoming that place in downtown Dallas. Downtown Dallas really hasn't had a premier district for a long time now with its office rates mirroring that of the suburban business districts. The Arts District looks like it is developing into the place where development will be focussed in the uptown / downtown area.

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From the parts of the world where people live above the water? I don't know how to answer this exactly. Let us just say that there are millions of zillionaires living out there who might desire to throw down a few bucks to buy a condo in close proximity to a cities premier district. I think the Arts District is becoming that place in downtown Dallas. Downtown Dallas really hasn't had a premier district for a long time now with its office rates mirroring that of the suburban business districts. The Arts District looks like it is developing into the place where development will be focussed in the uptown / downtown area.

I call BS. Your own hometown newspaper says the condo market has tanked. Your favorite TOD, Park Lane, cancelled two condo towers.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...os.3f06298.html

Fact is, nucklehead is living in 2006. In 2008, his vision of utopian DFW is stuck in neutral. As we like to say, "Just because you say it doesn't make it true".

You've been owned, nucklehead....by your own hometown newspaper. :lol:

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I call BS. Your own hometown newspaper says the condo market has tanked. Your favorite TOD, Park Lane, cancelled two condo towers.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...os.3f06298.html

Fact is, nucklehead is living in 2006. In 2008, his vision of utopian DFW is stuck in neutral. As we like to say, "Just because you say it doesn't make it true".

You've been owned, nucklehead....by your own . . .

What is this infatuation with overly erect buildings? I said that the Museum Condos are getting built. Period.

The Park Lane lead-developer in that TOD is a Houston company. So, please, quit with the TOD bashing.

One reason for their delay in the Museum condo might be to increase the size of it. Perhaps they intend to add floors to it and make it a 100 story structure? Perhaps 300 with a total of 1000 condos? Perhaps they will build a mile high condo in the shape of a big "D"? Who cares really?

Dallas isn't into "my gravestone is taller than yours" kind of a thing even though I have heard that Dallas has a gravestone in a cemetary that measures six stories.

The change in Dallas has been subtle. It isn't about endless freeways and tall empty skyscrapers any more. Its about a world class mass transit system and nifty little mixed use TODs!

The small packages of mixed use seem like nothing until they build up. Then they feed off each other. The hope along Central Expressway is that there will one day be an urban corridor there to feed Central Dallas and the Richardson Telecom Business District with employees.

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What is this infatuation with overly erect buildings? I said that the Museum Condos are getting built. Period.

Prove it.

The Park Lane lead-developer in that TOD is a Houston company. So, please, quit with the TOD bashing.

So?

One reason for their delay in the Museum condo might be to increase the size of it. Perhaps they intend to add floors to it and make it a 100 story structure?

Perhaps 300 with a total of 1000 condos? Perhaps they will build a mile high condo in the shape of a big "D"? Who cares really?

Perhaps reading the article, and the several other Dallas Morning News articles on the subject would change your mind.

Dallas isn't into "my gravestone is taller than yours" kind of a thing even though I have heard that Dallas has a gravestone in a cemetary that measures six stories.

Since when? Certainly not in my 31 years in Texas.

The change in Dallas has been subtle. It isn't about endless freeways and tall empty skyscrapers any more. Its about a world class mass transit system and nifty little mixed use TODs!

Again, since when?

The small packages of mixed use seem like nothing until they build up. Then they feed off each other. The hope along Central Expressway is that there will one day be an urban corridor there to feed Central Dallas and the Richardson Telecom Business District with employees.

Never heard that hope from anyone other than you. Pardon me if I don't believe a word of what you say, because the reality on the ground and in the newspapers and magazines doesn't not square with your fantasy.

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Okay. Let us change directions.

Suppose a bum in Uptown put a gun to my head and said, "Tell me what you think of TOD development in Houston?"

Well, I'd tell him that the best potential for TODs in Houston would be along the 59 corridor between the Midtown and Uptown areas. In fact, I'd say that is the best potential in the state of Texas outside of Las Colinas. But there is a nagging problem there. Houston's Midtown is seperated by a set of elevated freeways. A long standing belief in Dallas is that elevated freeways divide neighborhoods and stunt growth. Growth is measured in cycles. For a neighborhood to break out of downtown Houston into Midtown only to stagnate during a downtown will add real estate barriors to the elevated freeways as future growth will follow trends that alter plans.

For example, huge gaps of real estate were left over from the bust cycle that happened in Houston during the 80s. As the metropolitan area expanded again, the new development did not begin where it left off but skipped out five to ten miles further outside of the city. It wasn't until much later that infill came back to tend to those areas that were left abandoned during the 80s.

So, when TOD development gets going in Houston when the rail system makes them possible, we won't be hearing so much outdated talk about 200 story skyscrapers.

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Okay. Let us change directions.

Suppose a bum in Uptown put a gun to my head and said, "Tell me what you think of TOD development in Houston?"

Well, I'd tell him that the best potential for TODs in Houston would be along the 59 corridor between the Midtown and Uptown areas. In fact, I'd say that is the best potential in the state of Texas outside of Las Colinas. But there is a nagging problem there. Houston's Midtown is seperated by a set of elevated freeways. A long standing belief in Dallas is that elevated freeways divide neighborhoods and stunt growth. Growth is measured in cycles. For a neighborhood to break out of downtown Houston into Midtown only to stagnate during a downtown will add real estate barriors to the elevated freeways as future growth will follow trends that alter plans.

For example, huge gaps of real estate were left over from the bust cycle that happened in Houston during the 80s. As the metropolitan area expanded again, the new development did not begin where it left off but skipped out five to ten miles further outside of the city. It wasn't until much later that infill came back to tend to those areas that were left abandoned during the 80s.

So, when TOD development gets going in Houston when the rail system makes them possible, we won't be hearing so much outdated talk about 200 story skyscrapers.

It is quite obvious that you have not been in Houston in 20 years. Being wrong about Dallas development is one thing, but trying to tell Houstonians what is not happening in Houston when we can walk outside and see it is laughably idiotic, and adds to your growing status among amusing HAIF posters. Currently, I place you just behind Plastic, and gaining fast.

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It is quite obvious that you have not been in Houston in 20 years. Being wrong about Dallas development is one thing, but trying to tell Houstonians what is not happening in Houston when we can walk outside and see it is laughably idiotic, and adds to your growing status among amusing HAIF posters. Currently, I place you just behind Plastic, and gaining fast.

Indeed, that's impressive momentum.

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It is quite obvious that you have not been in Houston in 20 years. Being wrong about Dallas development is one thing, but trying to tell Houstonians what is not happening in Houston when we can walk outside and see it is laughably idiotic, and adds to your growing status among amusing HAIF posters. Currently, I place you just behind Plastic, and gaining fast.

You just can't not get offended, can you?

I was expecting an answer like, "Well, in my opinion I think the best chance for TODs will happen in east Houston around Gulfgate.

But no.

See, Houston does have a vacuum today on its present rail line in Midtown. But Midtown is cut off by two elevated freeways. In comparison, the vacuums in DFW are huge in distance.

The next Metro rail line expansion will connect Midtown in Houston with Uptown. I do believe it is a mistake not to face up to the problems those two elevated highways cause. But you make no comment about those ugly things either. No comment about 59 (69?) possibly being the urban corridor in Houston between Uptown and Midtown. Nothing but insecurity about office development.

The problem with the energy corridor is that it goes no where but to Katy. The corridors in Dallas connect business districts.

This is why I say there will be extensive TOD development along the 59 corridor between Midtown and Uptown in the future.

Indeed, that's impressive momentum.

Please be advised that this is not a debate between the metropolitan areas of DFW or Houston. Frankly, I think that both areas are as different as night and day.

This is a thread about TODs.

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But there is a nagging problem there. Houston's Midtown is seperated by a set of elevated freeways. A long standing belief in Dallas is that elevated freeways divide neighborhoods and stunt growth. Growth is measured in cycles. For a neighborhood to break out of downtown Houston into Midtown only to stagnate during a downtown will add real estate barriors to the elevated freeways as future growth will follow trends that alter plans.

this is starting to sound very familiar from a thread about a yr ago. think he ended up being banned.

what are you trying to say with the bolded sentence?

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this is starting to sound very familiar from a thread about a yr ago. think he ended up being banned.

what are you trying to say with the bolded sentence?

Sorry. I meant to say during a downturn.

Example: If the Victory project peters out in Uptown again, it will be the second time it has done so. That is why the design of the bricked American Airline center differs from the rest of the development. The major problem with the Victory project is that it's cut off by freeways from downtown. The area of the Arts District not only has the benefit of having a continuous flow into Uptown but its going to have a park plaza built on top of it as the centerpiece of Central Dallas.

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this is starting to sound very familiar from a thread about a yr ago. think he ended up being banned.

what are you trying to say with the bolded sentence?

Excuse me? Where is the comment about the topic?

My argument was this:

1) The Corridor along 59 between Midtown and Uptown has the best potential to become urban with lots of TODs. It is a viable vacuum.

2) The weakness to Midtown development are the two elevated freeways. I gave an example of the Victory Project of how if it has petered out again as a development, it will be the second time. I also gave the reason of it being cut off from downtown by freeways as a reason for it to struggle during a downturn.

Now. Is there something perverted about talking about burying an elevated freeway? Why would they ban me for talking about "Elevated Freeways"?

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Excuse me? Where is the comment about the topic?

My argument was this:

1) The Corridor along 59 between Midtown and Uptown has the best potential to become urban with lots of TODs. It is a viable vacuum.

2) The weakness to Midtown development are the two elevated freeways. I gave an example of the Victory Project of how if it has petered out again as a development, it will be the second time. I also gave the reason of it being cut off from downtown by freeways as a reason for it to struggle during a downturn.

Now. Is there something perverted about talking about burying an elevated freeway? Why would they ban me for talking about "Elevated Freeways"?

WTF?!

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I know you weren't responding to me. I was just amazed that what he said somehow meant something "perverted" in your eyes.

Look, I am bullish on Las Colinas. Not Dallas. I don't even think Las Colinas should be considered as part of the DFW market. It is in a class by itself because when any company moves there it makes sense.

I started this thread here because the huge amount of land aquired to do the TOD south of downtown Dallas is different. I guess one could say it is similar to the Cedars conversion of the huge Sears warehouse into apartments. This project is going to be built on raw land. This is the kinds of development that will be taking place in Las Colinas after the Cowboys leave the area and DART arrives. This will shift the focus of development in DFW from Central Dallas to the area of Las Colinas.

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Excuse me? Where is the comment about the topic?

My argument was this:

1) The Corridor along 59 between Midtown and Uptown has the best potential to become urban with lots of TODs. It is a viable vacuum.

2) The weakness to Midtown development are the two elevated freeways. I gave an example of the Victory Project of how if it has petered out again as a development, it will be the second time. I also gave the reason of it being cut off from downtown by freeways as a reason for it to struggle during a downturn.

Now. Is there something perverted about talking about burying an elevated freeway? Why would they ban me for talking about "Elevated Freeways"?

it's called trolling.

your argument is faulty because midtown isn't isolated from downtown. every street in the downtown grid extends into midtown.

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it's called trolling.

your argument is faulty because midtown isn't isolated from downtown. every street in the downtown grid extends into midtown.

Okay. Your nonsense is to say "it's called trolling."

You should leave that out next time.

You are saying "Your argument is faulty because midtown isn't isolated from downtown. Every street in the downtown grid extends into midtown."

Okay. Live in tellytubbie land with that basic understanding.

There really isn't any way to respond to you without risking having the thread closed or having myself banned. I wish you the best with whatever endeavor you choose in life.

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Okay. Your nonsense is to say "it's called trolling."

You should leave that out next time.

You are saying "Your argument is faulty because midtown isn't isolated from downtown. Every street in the downtown grid extends into midtown."

Okay. Live in tellytubbie land with that basic understanding.

There really isn't any way to respond to you without risking having the thread closed or having myself banned. I wish you the best with whatever endeavor you choose in life.

The problem with your argument is that Midtown has not stagnated like Victory. They are still building and expanding it. The Pierce elevated has not isolated anything. So, once again your premise is WRONG.

THAT is what people are responding to, that you keep making statements that are full of WRONG facts and WRONG conclusions. The fact that you continue to make the statements after being proven WRONG suggests that you are a troll. It has nothing to do with the viability of TODs. It has everything to do with your incorrect statements.

Hoped that helped.

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Look, I am bullish on Las Colinas. Not Dallas. I don't even think Las Colinas should be considered as part of the DFW market. It is in a class by itself because when any company moves there it makes sense.

I started this thread here because the huge amount of land aquired to do the TOD south of downtown Dallas is different. I guess one could say it is similar to the Cedars conversion of the huge Sears warehouse into apartments. This project is going to be built on raw land. This is the kinds of development that will be taking place in Las Colinas after the Cowboys leave the area and DART arrives. This will shift the focus of development in DFW from Central Dallas to the area of Las Colinas.

Isn't Las Colinas a dry area? At least 8 years ago when my friend lived there it was. Yeah, dry areas are no fun. People need liquor to properly enjoy work or mass transit. I've done hundreds of personal studies that support this.

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Isn't Las Colinas a dry area? At least 8 years ago when my friend lived there it was. Yeah, dry areas are no fun. People need liquor to properly enjoy work or mass transit. I've done hundreds of personal studies that support this.

Las Colinas is already much more than an office park. The area has the potential to surpass downtown Dallas and Uptown combined in shear office space and residential construction. This next wave of construction so far amounts to 4 billion dollars worth of personal investment in TOD's that is just getting under way.

http://www.dart.org/about/inmotion/spring08/3.htm

The City of Irving and private developers have planned more than $4 billion in transit-oriented development.

The relocations to Las Colinas attract the TODs. The TODs will attract further relocations.

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The problem with your argument is that Midtown has not stagnated like Victory. They are still building and expanding it. The Pierce elevated has not isolated anything. So, once again your premise is WRONG.

THAT is what people are responding to, that you keep making statements that are full of WRONG facts and WRONG conclusions. The fact that you continue to make the statements after being proven WRONG suggests that you are a troll. It has nothing to do with the viability of TODs. It has everything to do with your incorrect statements.

Hoped that helped.

I see. Well, while Dallas is building a plaza over its freeways in front of its Art District, I guess Houston can just build them under their elevated freeways. Let's see which succeeds the most.

That is something Texas Cities don't have. Plazas. There is a good amount of plaza like stuff off towards the southern part of downtown Dallas around City Hall and the Convention Center where all those bronze longhorns are located. But this plaza is going to be smack dab in the heart of Central Dallas.

I think Houston is wasting its time not sinking its elevated freeways. The city does have a problem with flooding so sinking them and covering them will take a lot of money and work. But, you know, if the city don't want to put in the investment, that investment can always go somewhere else.

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I see. Well, while Dallas is building a plaza over its freeways in front of its Art District, I guess Houston can just build them under their elevated freeways. Let's see which succeeds the most.

That is something Texas Cities don't have. Plazas. There is a good amount of plaza like stuff off towards the southern part of downtown Dallas around City Hall and the Convention Center where all those bronze longhorns are located. But this plaza is going to be smack dab in the heart of Central Dallas.

I think Houston is wasting its time not sinking its elevated freeways. The city does have a problem with flooding so sinking them and covering them will take a lot of money and work. But, you know, if the city don't want to put in the investment, that investment can always go somewhere else.

We already have one of those plazas/parks in front of our convention center. It will be completly surrounded by highrises in five years. It has proven to be quite successful.

And if you think what nucklehead is saying here is bad, go check him out at Dallas Metropolis. He has that whole site believing Dallas/Irving/DFW Airport, will steal most of Houston's oil companies and Continental Airlines because "they are not smart to be away from the big North American magnet". Something like that.

Edited by Trae
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Look, I am bullish on Las Colinas. Not Dallas. I don't even think Las Colinas should be considered as part of the DFW market. It is in a class by itself because when any company moves there it makes sense.

That's a real nifty point of view, mister.

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That's a real nifty point of view, mister.

Thanks. I guess you must agree then that a transition is taking place between Central Dallas and Las Colinas then? I do think the development that was happening in the whole of Uptown north of Downtown is about to be focussed in and around the Arts District area in the future as a result of the opening of its next phase. This will be followed by the building of the park plaza as its fronting certerpiece over the freeway at the heart of Central Dallas. I really do think the Victory and Harwood projects are in trouble as a result of what will be a focus on the premium area of the Arts District while Las Colinas also begins to ramp up construction of its TODs. TODs attract relocations. Relocations attract more TODs.

I also think every political firestorm that happens in Central Dallas sends investors to "the hills" -- de Las Colinas!

It amazes me how little people in Houston know. Most in here think Central Dallas is the epitome of DFW while, even when taking in the current expansion of development happening there, the only business markets to expand over the last 20 years in DFW are the ones outside of downtown Dallas and Fort Worth. What Uptown has gained recently in office space, Downtown has lost even more so over the years through office conversions into that of a hotel, in one case, and into that of housing of some sort in the other cases.

The building of the housing in Central Dallas is impressive but that only amounts to a trendy fashion statement that can easily find reason to move away during the next development phase of new fashion trends.

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