Why Did The FM 1960 Area Stop Growing?

[Trae]

Because 1960 is busier than Washington Ave.

[hbcu]

I meant that it's quieter inside the loop than outside now and no one would have thought that years ago as loop land is becoming high property for high class folks....everyone is being pushed out so they congregate in suburban areas now....

[Forest]

I meant that it's quieter inside the loop than outside now and no one would have thought that years ago as loop land is becoming high property for high class folks....everyone is being pushed out so they congregate in suburban areas now....

BTW: Many of the neighborhoods off 1960 are very quiet because they actually have an abundance of trres. And just because you live off 1960 does not mean you actually run up and down it all day if you're out running errands. There are lots of back roads to get around so many times I may only be on 1960 for a short part of my errands. I did have to go down to Kuykandahl yesterday and that intersection is a mess but the traffic moves so I don't really get why people think traffic is so horrible. Also, I use to work in the Galleria area and I literally took a "shelter in place" attitude and rarely left the building at lunch.

[RedScare]

It was very embarassing to bring clients from out of state to that area but we had to becasue of the nearby airport.

Perhaps you embarrass easily. Every city has its "ugly side", and many are on the way to their airports (the rich generally do not prefer to live in the flight paths). The brutal truth is that on the scale of importance to limited income families, aesthetics is pretty far down the list. In an economy where gas and groceries are jumping drastically, while real wages have declined since 2000, preventive maintanance and pretty upgrades get pushed aside. Considering that much of this inventory is 30 years old or more, it really doesn't look as bad as it could.

But, to agree with Niche and mrfootball, 1960 hasn't stopped growing, it is merely different.

[KatieDidIt]

BTW: Many of the neighborhoods off 1960 are very quiet because they actually have an abundance of trres. And just because you live off 1960 does not mean you actually run up and down it all day if you're out running errands. There are lots of back roads to get around so many times I may only be on 1960 for a short part of my errands. I did have to go down to Kuykandahl yesterday and that intersection is a mess but the traffic moves so I don't really get why people think traffic is so horrible. Also, I use to work in the Galleria area and I literally took a "shelter in place" attitude and rarely left the building at lunch.

One of these days developers are going to figure out that the old fashioned grid system, neighborhoods built off alternate roads that run parallel to freeways, was actually a brillant idea.

While the whole isolated, cul-de-sac concept is great on paper, once an area become highly populated, getting there is a royal b*tch.

Compared earlier in this thread, the areas of Wilchester/West Beltway to 1960 and it got me thinking. The houses look similar, some of the lot sizes similar, but what made one boom and the other stagnate? While there are many differences now, location from downtown is bascially the same. The major difference that stands out, is how the neighborhoods are laid out and how one gets to the neighborhoods. 1960 is a constricted traffic road with an amazing amount of lights that takes people to their subdivisions. I know that people claim there are back roads, but obviously they aren't as efficent as a parallel lane of traffic flanked by grids. Western Memorial is built off parallel running Memorial. Once you get off the freeway, there are multiple ways to use the grid to get home. There are lights, but they are far between. Also, there is commercial, but the residental grid only allowed for pockets of commercial.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, but looking at the map of 1960 this sticks out like a sore thumb. Unfotunately, most of the MPCs use this system. And in my personal experience, it's not a good one.

[DaveMc]

I've lived in the FM1960 area for more than 30 years. I think the article and many of the responses have it all wrong.

To reply to the above post, sorry I live in a cul-de-sac and love it. I think that is one of the benefits of neighborhoods like Champions, Huntwick and Memorial Northwest. Traffic inside those communites is greatly deminished. Compare that to grid neighborhoods like Greenwood Forest were people drive like maniacs trying to bypass the main roadways. I lived there once, not again.

I've commuted for decades down FM1960 and with a couple exceptions (Willowbrook comes to mind) traffic moves pretty well. How can an area, especially west of I-45, expect continued growth when it appears to be nearly built out?

Of course many remember all the large trees that use to line FM1960. They have now been replaced with many strip centers. Once the left turn lane is removed and medians and other barriers are erected we can expect FM1960 traffic to be more like Willowbrook's with even more vacant shopping centers. This will put even more pressure on other east-west corridors like Richey, Louetta and Spring Cypress.

[DaveMc]

I spent time inside the loop last weekend.....it's quieter on Washington Avenue than it is on 1960....much quieter

Thank You former Mayor Bill White

You urban revitalization efforts have successfully pushed most of Houston poor and downtrodden out past the loops

and made your developer buddies rich!

Nice job.

[KatieDidIt]

I've lived in the FM1960 area for more than 30 years. I think the article and many of the responses have it all wrong.

To reply to the above post, sorry I live in a cul-de-sac and love it. I think that is one of the benefits of neighborhoods like Champions, Huntwick and Memorial Northwest. Traffic inside those communites is greatly deminished. Compare that to grid neighborhoods like Greenwood Forest were people drive like maniacs trying to bypass the main roadways. I lived there once, not again.

I've commuted for decades down FM1960 and with a couple exceptions (Willowbrook comes to mind) traffic moves pretty well. How can an area, especially west of I-45, expect continued growth when it appears to be nearly built out?

Of course many remember all the large trees that use to line FM1960. They have now been replaced with many strip centers. Once the left turn lane is removed and medians and other barriers are erected we can expect FM1960 traffic to be more like Willowbrook's with even more vacant shopping centers. This will put even more pressure on other east-west corridors like Richey, Louetta and Spring Cypress.

I can see that. We don't really have cut through traffic, so I guess that makes a difference in the effectiveness. Our neighborhood has none, it's blocked off on one side. There really isn't any congestion on the "major" roads to warrant cut through around here. Several North South access roads from the freeway to Memorial nip that in the bud. If you wanted to attempt a cut through, you'd really have to know the neighborhoods, and twist and turn you way out of it. In the end its faster to go to the light and make a turn.

[RedScare]

Thank You former Mayor Bill White

You urban revitalization efforts have successfully pushed most of Houston poor and downtrodden out past the loops

and made your developer buddies rich!

Nice job.

Just curious, DaveMc. Is there any particular reason Mayor White should NOT be improving the city he was elected to serve, in favor of the unincorporated area that has rejected his city for over 30 years?

[DaveMc]

Just curious, DaveMc. Is there any particular reason Mayor White should NOT be improving the city he was elected to serve, in favor of the unincorporated area that has rejected his city for over 30 years?

Like everything in the life. There are trade-offs.

Are the trade-offs worth it? The depends on which side you're on.

But I remember those plans were advertised as helping Houston's poor neighborhoods. From where I sit, I could easily see that it was a plan to drive those people out. It looks like the focus is now turning to the east side.

[RedScare]

Since you have not identified a single plan, I can not comment on the effectiveness of them. However, I CAN comment on the so-called "tradeoffs". As a taxpaying Houstonian, I helped elect Bill White, along with 91% of the other City of Houston voters. We did so primarily because we like what he is doing INSIDE the city limits. He owes no duty to those outside the city limits, and frankly, given the animosity shown by those outside the city limits toward Houston, I would oppose spending any time or money on non-city projects.

The unincorporated areas already receive the benefit of Houston's massive tax base funding Harris County operations, which largely ignore the City of Houston. Demanding city services while not paying city taxes sounds a bit...well...greedy.

[TheNiche]

Like everything in the life. There are trade-offs.

Are the trade-offs worth it? The depends on which side you're on.

But I remember those plans were advertised as helping Houston's poor neighborhoods. From where I sit, I could easily see that it was a plan to drive those people out. It looks like the focus is now turning to the east side.

A surprising number of the poor people "driven out" of the areas you were talking about actually owned their own homes. They decided to sell and were able to cash out, benefiting tremendously.

If Mayor White were actually responsible for inner-city revitalization, I might congradulate him. But he isn't. This is a trend that preceeded him.

Since you have not identified a single plan, I can not comment on the effectiveness of them. However, I CAN comment on the so-called "tradeoffs". As a taxpaying Houstonian, I helped elect Bill White, along with 91% of the other City of Houston voters. We did so primarily because we like what he is doing INSIDE the city limits.

In all fairness, the 91% didn't actually mean very much. He was a strong incumbent and didn't really attract any serious opposition or even turnout. I know of several people that put in protest votes for the Outlaw or the Socialist (and even one write-in for me!) over the Ashby highrise deal, though.

[RedScare]

A surprising number of the poor people "driven out" of the areas you were talking about actually owned their own homes. They decided to sell and were able to cash out, benefiting tremendously.

If Mayor White were actually responsible for inner-city revitalization, I might congradulate him. But he isn't. This is a trend that preceeded him.

In all fairness, the 91% didn't actually mean very much. He was a strong incumbent and didn't really attract any serious opposition or even turnout. I know of several people that put in protest votes for the Outlaw or the Socialist (and even one write-in for me!) over the Ashby highrise deal, though.

He was a strong incumbent without serious opposition because he did a damned fine job in his previous two terms. If he sucked, you can bet he would have had an opponent. As for your anecdotal protest votes, normally I'd tell you to bring me some real statistics, but in this case I'll just say that it takes all kinds to make up 9% of the electorate.

On to serious matters. DaveMc seems to be a bit revisionist in describing how the FM 1960 neighborhoods became what they are and when. Bill White didn't do it, as you stated. The 1986 real estate implosion did it. Those neighborhoods have been owned by the working poor for 20 years. But, it's always nice to blame a Democrat or a Houston resident for everything. And, when you can get a two-fer by blaming Bill White, so much the better!

[TheNiche]

He was a strong incumbent without serious opposition because he did a damned fine job in his previous two terms. If he sucked, you can bet he would have had an opponent. As for your anecdotal protest votes, normally I'd tell you to bring me some real statistics, but in this case I'll just say that it takes all kinds to make up 9% of the electorate.

Hey, all I'm saying is that if a serious candidate had bothered to enter the race (which I agree wouldn't have been financially prudent on their part) then people would've had a serious choice to make and it wouldn't have been a 91% victory. Maybe it would've been 70%, still impressive, but it wouldn't be 91%. That number is pretty meaningless and does not support your thesis, which I agree with.

[DaveMc]

The unincorporated areas already receive the benefit of Houston's massive tax base funding Harris County operations, which largely ignore the City of Houston. Demanding city services while not paying city taxes sounds a bit...well...greedy.

Just like Metro taxes. We pay them and Houston gets the majority of representation on the board and nearly all the projects.

I'm certain our politics are different. Heavy handed government is just another reason for me to leave the Westhiemer area and move to the unincorporated "Great Northwest". I stand by my comments about FM1960.

Our property values haven't risen? So what! It keeps my taxes down. We all have to live somewhere, and I believe the quality of life to be greater here.

Another note, I'd be very, very suprised if even half of those displaced by the cities raising property values and increasing property taxes owned their homes.

[houstonmacbro]

Just like Metro taxes. We pay them and Houston gets the majority of representation on the board and nearly all the projects.

I'm certain our politics are different. Heavy handed government is just another reason for me to leave the Westhiemer area and move to the unincorporated "Great Northwest". I stand by my comments about FM1960.

Our property values haven't risen? So what! It keeps my taxes down. We all have to live somewhere, and I believe the quality of life to be greater here.

Another note, I'd be very, very suprised if even half of those displaced by the cities raising property values and increasing property taxes owned their homes.

FM 1960 has its ups and downs, but it's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. I do think some of it deals with 1960 itself (it looks trashy in parts) and some of it on the DENSITY of apartments (not the apartments itself or even all the tenants). I was one of those tenants just a year ago and I wasn't out committing any crimes.

I think 1960 suffers from some of the same things affecting many thoroughfares. There didn't seem to be a plan developed for anything other than Champions. There are a few nice neighborhoods off 1960, but for the most part they are enclaves and don't really mingle with the commoners.

[RedScare]

Just like Metro taxes. We pay them and Houston gets the majority of representation on the board and nearly all the projects.

I'm certain our politics are different. Heavy handed government is just another reason for me to leave the Westhiemer area and move to the unincorporated "Great Northwest". I stand by my comments about FM1960.

Our property values haven't risen? So what! It keeps my taxes down. We all have to live somewhere, and I believe the quality of life to be greater here.

Another note, I'd be very, very suprised if even half of those displaced by the cities raising property values and increasing property taxes owned their homes.

Just to show you what a standup guy I am, you tell me where you want those bus routes, and I will personally go in front of the METRO board and argue for them for you.

As for our politics, I am quite certain that we both oppose our tax dollars being spent to improve adjoining jurisdictions that do not pay the tax. And I agree that rising property values are a double-edged sword.

I don't personally know of anyone displaced by rising property values, though I am well aware that the accusation is lobbed frequently to protest gentrification. The only study that I am aware of found that the residents in that study actually appreciated the gentrification, as it brought new stores to the area. Additionally, the "over 65" homestead exemption in Harris County is extremely genrous. My parents, for example, pay $166 in property taxes. Yeah, for a whole year. I doubt many elderly homeowners are getting priced out of their homes at that price.

So, is that it? Rising property values? To the best of my knowledge, Bill White did not legislate increased property values, although if he does a good job as mayor, Houston becomes a better place to live, thereby increasing its desirability, and as a consequence, property values rise. If that is the accusation against him, I feel confident that he would willingly plead guilty.

Oh, and one last thing. Earlier, you said you've lived in the 1960 area for over 30 years. What was the heavy handed government that was occurring in 1977 that made you move out of Houston? I was only 17 back then, and living in the 1960 area, so I wasn't paying attention.

[DaveMc]

My sincerest apologies to all the Bill White fans. Although he has been a little heavy handed he's been the best mayor in many years.

I meant Bob Lanier Duh, at least I got the "former" part right.

[RedScare]

My sincerest apologies to all the Bill White fans. Although he has been a little heavy handed he's been the best mayor in many years.

I meant Bob Lanier Duh, at least I got the "former" part right.

Ahhh. Makes much more sense. I'm tempted to agree with you that Mayor Bob's tactics were heavy handed, and maybe not the best approach in retrospect.

[Forest]

Traffic inside those communites is greatly deminished. Compare that to grid neighborhoods like Greenwood Forest were people drive like maniacs trying to bypass the main roadways. I lived there once, not again.

Actually people do not drive like maniacs in Greenwood Forest because the speed limit is now 20 mph almost everywhere except Champions Forest, which is 30 mph. Our constables have given out hundreds of tickets ths year alone and people have slowed down considerably. Actually, I like the grid neighborhood because it is very easy to get in and out and you don't get lost in here

[hbcu]

it's not technically 1960...it's the streets before that or anyting off of Imperial Valley Drive that has affected the area

I drove through Remington Ranch last weekend (off I-45 N near 1960) and it's a damn shame how those homebuilders have crammed so many cracker jack homes of poor quality back there...streets are extra narrow and they even have the nerves to build alleyways....there has to be almost 20,000 people crammed into that little area which is destined for ghetto...eventually, those residents will contiue moving north

but the major street extensions have been the reason why areas change...Imperial Valley starts in Greenspoint, breaks off but picks up again all of the neighborhoods on that street aren't nothing to write home about...

same with Veterans Memorial..home of the abandoned newly built strip centers built by Chinese developers..but you turn off and the homes back there are pretty small and tight and that was built in the 70s and 80s..

[Montrose1100]

Its all the crack and crystal meth in all the apartments and even some of the houses!!!

[mrfootball]

This thread is dumb.

A) One small portion of 1960 they focused on from Kuykendahl to I-45 has stagnated, the rest of it continues to grow.

B ) I can think of a number of comparable streets who have far worse issues on a regular basis...i.e. Richmond, Westheimer, etc.

C) 1960, even with all of its ugly strip centers still looks better than a lot of major thoroughfares around town.

[houstonmacbro]

This thread is dumb.

A) One small portion of 1960 they focused on from Kuykendahl to I-45 has stagnated, the rest of it continues to grow.

B ) I can think of a number of comparable streets who have far worse issues on a regular basis...i.e. Richmond, Westheimer, etc.

C) 1960, even with all of its ugly strip centers still looks better than a lot of major thoroughfares around town.

Kuykedahl to 45 has not stagnated. There are new establishments going up all the time (Office Depot recent opened as well as Panda Express) although we did lose Bennigans (no big loss in my book).

I will concede the density of apartments has a negative affect as it just concentrates too many potential issues in one local.

[Montrose1100]

Kuykedahl to 45 has not stagnated. There are new establishments going up all the time (Office Depot recent opened as well as Panda Express) although we did lose Bennigans (no big loss in my book).

I will concede the density of apartments has a negative affect as it just concentrates too many potential issues in one local.

Well Bennigans is bankrupt and closing all their resteraunts...

[mastercreatorssdd]

I think it is a combination of things.

1) drug explosion- a drug called ice or meth exploded heavily in that area in the early to mid 90's and it brought along a lot destructive, derogatory, and downtrodden imagery, personnel, and economical changes versus the up-swinging, aspiring, and prosperous tone o that area before then

2) racial inequality- I too graduated from WHS in the early 90's, and I witnessed a lot of racial injustice amidst those times (racism is wrong and mother nature will not tolerate it, the balance of power screams that). Anyways, I allowed a lot of it too happen, but a lot of it was considered okay by the masses in that area. I think the changes in that area are true yet disheartening displays of justice to what happened to the people that really were victims of that injustice. We were some of the first and only african american families in that area at that time up to now, and there are now loads of african americans in that area. Unfortunately the ways, thoughts, and economical standards of african americans are considerably lower, slower, and disintegrative versus caucasian culture by way of westernized civilizations standards.

3) commerce increase- As most affluent people in the Houston area know, the Woodlands recently was hyped due to the investment power of large and aspiring businesses. Such needs to happen in the 1960 area mentioned here. I fully intend on investing in the area by way of my business. Hopefully others will follow if they are not doing so already.

[cosmic08]

I think it is a combination of things.

1) drug explosion- a drug called ice or meth exploded heavily in that area in the early to mid 90's and it brought along a lot destructive, derogatory, and downtrodden imagery, personnel, and economical changes versus the up-swinging, aspiring, and prosperous tone o that area before then

2) racial inequality- I too graduated from WHS in the early 90's, and I witnessed a lot of racial injustice amidst those times (racism is wrong and mother nature will not tolerate it, the balance of power screams that). Anyways, I allowed a lot of it too happen, but a lot of it was considered okay by the masses in that area. I think the changes in that area are true yet disheartening displays of justice to what happened to the people that really were victims of that injustice. We were some of the first and only african american families in that area at that time up to now, and there are now loads of african americans in that area. Unfortunately the ways, thoughts, and economical standards of african americans are considerably lower, slower, and disintegrative versus caucasian culture by way of westernized civilizations standards.

3) commerce increase- As most affluent people in the Houston area know, the Woodlands recently was hyped due to the investment power of large and aspiring businesses. Such needs to happen in the 1960 area mentioned here. I fully intend on investing in the area by way of my business. Hopefully others will follow if they are not doing so already.

"Unfortunately the ways, thoughts, and economical standards of african americans are considerably lower, slower, and disintegrative versus caucasian culture by way of westernized civilizations standards."

Yikes - that is WAY harsh. That's awesome of you be proactive and help your area by opening a business, but I would ease up on comments like this. Oye

[kylejack]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5880220.html

Because I graduated from Klein (1999), moved out of Spring into the big city!

[TheNiche]

"Unfortunately the ways, thoughts, and economical standards of african americans are considerably lower, slower, and disintegrative versus caucasian culture by way of westernized civilizations standards."

Yikes - that is WAY harsh. That's awesome of you be proactive and help your area by opening a business, but I would ease up on comments like this. Oye

It is difficult to read, but the statement was well-qualified and is probably more true than not. Even many Africans non-Americans would agree. In fact, I've heard them say far worse about their American cousins.

But...it is a generalization, and it is a fallacy. Not every African-American is like that.

[hbcu]

mass transit plus cheap apartments = decline....not hard to figure out..

also, I've said this many times...run a major street from a predominately african american/hispanic area to a suburban area that has affordable housing, the area will change easily...

veterans memorial goes straight thru to 1960

humble borders a huge hispanic area and african american area of of 59 and you see how that area has changed

fondren area has a bunch of homes that people will never get money back for, but it's accessible to everywhere on the south side

Pearland, mock my words, will be the biggest bust for people who own expensive homes....you see the crime reports and Pearland borders South Park, Sunnyside, etc. with Cullen and Telephone running straight through