Why Did The FM 1960 Area Stop Growing?

[neonurse97]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5880220.html

[rps324]

The part that sort of struck me in the article, and maybe it is just the way I interpreted it, was the tone that 1960 is in a definite serious state of decline.

I mean, I know people don't like Spring ISD as much as Klein or Cy Fair, but I guess I thought it was more that the area was fine, still selling well to transferees in the area, but there was a percentage of those that were maybe more informed or picky about the schools that simply preferred some areas to the north of the creek. The tone of the article leaves me with an impression prospects are a lot dimmer for that area than I thought.

I don't know how the reality compares to the articles "tone" or not. It would be nice if they could turn things around while the curb appeal of the subdivisions is still good. Last time I was out there I didn't see anything really wrong with any of them, unless I missed something. I have not been in Westador in a long time though, not sure how that one is holding up these days.

[ricco67]

The part that sort of struck me in the article, and maybe it is just the way I interpreted it, was the tone that 1960 is in a definite serious state of decline.

I mean, I know people don't like Spring ISD as much as Klein or Cy Fair, but I guess I thought it was more that the area was fine, still selling well to transferees in the area, but there was a percentage of those that were maybe more informed or picky about the schools that simply preferred some areas to the north of the creek. The tone of the article leaves me with an impression prospects are a lot dimmer for that area than I thought.

I don't know how the reality compares to the articles "tone" or not. It would be nice if they could turn things around while the curb appeal of the subdivisions is still good. Last time I was out there I didn't see anything really wrong with any of them, unless I missed something. I have not been in Westador in a long time though, not sure how that one is holding up these days.

Well I was up there briefly a few weeks ago for the first time in awhile (Yay! no more Ex!) and I have to say compared to 20 years ago, it HAS been on a decline. Even over the past year you can tell it is falling.

[mrfootball]

We know, 1960 is ugly and overdeveloped. They didn't really choose to delineate which parts of 1960 were actually in decline. Of course we know it to be the area b/w Stuebner and I-45...not the biggest stretch of land in the world, but certainly noted that it used to be nice and now its not so nice. I wouldn't go so far as to say that its worse than some parts of Westheimer.

[neonurse97]

I haven't been in that particular area in awhile, so I can't really comment on the article. However, the article would have one to believe that FM1960 is in serious decline. The comments made by many of the readers of this article are that basically FM 1960 has become infested with crime caused by Metro, Katrina evacuees, low rent apartments, vacant strip centers and low performing schools. Some people feel like zoning is the answer.

[ricco67]

I haven't been in that particular area in awhile, so I can't really comment on the article. However, the article would have one to believe that FM1960 is in serious decline. The comments made by many of the readers of this article are that basically FM 1960 has become infested with crime caused by Metro, Katrina evacuees, low rent apartments, vacant strip centers and low performing schools. Some people feel like zoning is the answer.

Take whatever the posters on chron.com say with a giant gulp of salt. I am going to start calling them "mini-Limbaughs".

I don't think Metro,Low Rent Apartments, or Katrina people are the reasons for decline. I think it was partially the shut down of Compaq's facility as well as shifting Demo's.

[KatieDidIt]

Take whatever the posters on chron.com say with a giant gulp of salt. I am going to start calling them "mini-Limbaughs".

I don't think Metro,Low Rent Apartments, or Katrina people are the reasons for decline. I think it was partially the shut down of Compaq's facility as well as shifting Demo's.

I've noticed that once a suburban neighborhood (not an MPC) reaches about 20 years old, people leave it and move further out. Now people are leaving 1960 for Cypress and The Woodlands, and the same people who left Houston for 1960 are shocked.

[houstongirl]

I've noticed that once a suburban neighborhood (not an MPC) reaches about 20 years old, people leave it and move further out. Now people are leaving 1960 for Cypress and The Woodlands, and the same people who left Houston for 1960 are shocked.

I totally agree with this statement. People want the latest and greatest, and 1960 is neither one of those.

I grew up in Ponderosa Forest and graduated from Westfield HS in 1994. We moved into Ponderosa in the early 80's, and our home was one of the nicest in the subdivision. 20-something years later, it is worth roughly what was paid for it when purchased. There has been no growth.... or what little there was has been erased.

The situation makes me sad, as this section of 1960 is where I grew up. It used to be quiet(er), cleaner, and with much less crime. Spring ISD was once considered to be superior to KISD, believe it or not, and that's why we moved when my siblings started school.

As we all know, property values decline with the decline of the public schools in the area. So I attribute some of this to the education situation. Some of that decline is directly related to the abundance of apartments along Ella and Bammel N. Houston. The school became grossly overcrowded very, very quickly, and many parents don't want their kids in that type of environment.

I also feel the decline, paired with the other factors, grew quite quickly and was overwhelming. So overwhelming, in fact, that the residents of the area just gave up. Now there are so many strip centers in disrepair, that you can't see any of the upsides.

For goodness sake, there is a massage parlor at the entrance of Ponderosa Forest now!

[mrfootball]

I totally agree with this statement. People want the latest and greatest, and 1960 is neither one of those.

I grew up in Ponderosa Forest and graduated from Westfield HS in 1994. We moved into Ponderosa in the early 80's, and our home was one of the nicest in the subdivision. 20-something years later, it is worth roughly what was paid for it when purchased. There has been no growth.... or what little there was has been erased.

The situation makes me sad, as this section of 1960 is where I grew up. It used to be quiet(er), cleaner, and with much less crime. Spring ISD was once considered to be superior to KISD, believe it or not, and that's why we moved when my siblings started school.

As we all know, property values decline with the decline of the public schools in the area. So I attribute some of this to the education situation. Some of that decline is directly related to the abundance of apartments along Ella and Bammel N. Houston. The school became grossly overcrowded very, very quickly, and many parents don't want their kids in that type of environment.

I also feel the decline, paired with the other factors, grew quite quickly and was overwhelming. So overwhelming, in fact, that the residents of the area just gave up. Now there are so many strip centers in disrepair, that you can't see any of the upsides.

For goodness sake, there is a massage parlor at the entrance of Ponderosa Forest now!

Perhaps you don't remember the Hot Tub party place in front of the neighborhood in the 1980's? I recall my neighbor who was on the HOA at the time, putting together a campaign to put them out of business. They couldn't. Simply put, there's no zoning and nobody to complain to out here. NOBODY IS ACCOUNTABLE or at least nobody knows who is accountable. The area has become too large for the county to handle with its limited ordinance making ability and Houston's been pretty happy with the status quo extracting sales tax dollars from its Limited Purpose Annexation. Add to that the abundance of Section 8 and tax-credit apartments enabled by County/State/Federal authorities that saw an area of opportunity, with great schools, cheap land and no zoning...voila!

Your government quietly came in and screwed it up for everyone. End the subsidies and half the problem goes away once they move on to easier pickings. Create a TIRZ and/or incorporation and you're on the road to recovery.

Neighborhoods like Ponderosa and Greenwood are still very nice looking neighborhoods. Many of the original residents still live there. I was looking at those great photos of Yorkshire on the other board and couldn't help but think how much it looks like the above neighborhoods. My parents moved out here in the early 1970's. At the time, they were torn between Wilchester and Greenwood Forest. They were both at a similar price range back in the 70's and 80's. Similar looking homes, similar demographic. Its sad to see them having a difficult time with the decline in schools. Nonetheless, something needs to change over there and I hope this article wakes people up all over unincorporated Houston.

[houstongirl]

OH MY GOD!!! I do remember the Hot Tub place!!!!

The funny thing is that I was very young (6 or 7) at the time and didn't realize what it was, until you brought it up just now.

That's hilarious!

On a side note, I did always giggle at the "NUDE Furniture" store every time we drove by.

[TheNiche]

Re-posted from a different thread:

FM 1960 is not in decline, per se...you need only attempt to drive FM 1960 and perhaps visit the Wal-Mart on a weekend afternoon to realize that. It is only becoming more affordable. That's what most 35-year-old suburbs do. It ought to be celebrated. We need affordable housing.

If you want to see an area in decline, visit Ohio.

[Aldine]

I don't believe Katrina people, Metro, or Apartments led to the decline of building and housing prices along 1960. I honestly believe that (like stated above), people get tired of their old suburbs and want to move further out to be in the newer and nicer considered areas. I believe school district plays a part, and that's why the area of 1960 in Spring ISD, west of 45, and in Aldine ISD (go Aldine!!) east of 45, is underdeveloped, but overall it boils down to Cypress and Klein's northwestern areas being somewhat "nicer" the further you get from Houston's city limits. And you can tell this by the schools. Look at Jersey Village, and Klein Forest. Two examples of not-so-great schools in great school districts.

[hbcu]

Klein ISD was forced by the government to improve minority numbers in the past....they get an area in Acres Home and off of Bingle by Antoine that should not be zoned to them as you pass several Aldine schools to get there...but eventually, people started moving past the beltway along Veterans and that's how it changed..but anytime a minority district borders a suburban district, things will change...

FBISD - HISD

Galena Park - HISD

North Forest - HISD

Humble - North Forest

Aldine - HISD

Eastern Cy-Fair - HISD

eventually, you don't think the northern side of Klein will change? The threat to the Woodlands is what they build in non-regulated areas outside the Woodlands but is zoned to The Woodlands

[crone]

1960 was as ugly in 1974 as it is now. The traffic might have been worse then. Some days it took 45 minutes to get from Red Oak and 1960 to Bammel Middle school. Nearly every house in new Westador was broken into in the daytime. We were living in a disenfranchised no-mans-land. We still are. Crime has to do with the amount of males between 14 and 30. When that is a big number, crime goes up. It does not much matter what race a person is. When that number declines every politician in the English speaking world will take credit for reducing crime. In 1974 it took 30 minutes to get from Westador to Main and Elgin. Three years later, that trip took 90 minutes. The carpool could even have a beer on the way home then. The big difference between then and now IMHO is the return of Howard Beale in the form of Renaissance 1960. Now if we could just do something about those ugly signs, utility poles, and absentee owners of those awful strip shopping centers. Boycott, y'all and let them know why. Can't the water districts have more control in the areas they serve, or did they give away that right to Houston?

[Forest]

OK, parts of 1960 are in decline and I'm hopeful that there are some groups such as Renaissance 1960 that are trying to bring some thought into how we move forward. But to some degree, it's just part of a cycle. Yes, businesses have closed around the monster road construction at Kuykandahl. But Hobby Lobby didn't LEAVE 1960 -- it just moved into the old Target Center down at Steubner. What just opened next door to that in the same center? -- Staples! As someone who lives in Greenwood Forest - I love that there is all of this great shopping at my doorstep - Barnes & Noble; Kirklands, Container Store etc. plus dozens of great restaurants which tend to stay very busy. I find it hysterical that people are folding their tent and moving north -- in some cases just a few miles -- don't you see that 1960 is not the Berlin Wall ... that much of this is just part of living in Southeast Texas? Or building a home in a brand new subdivision in the middle of nowhere is no guarantee that in 10 years your area won't look just like where you left?

[KatieDidIt]

Perhaps you don't remember the Hot Tub party place in front of the neighborhood in the 1980's? I recall my neighbor who was on the HOA at the time, putting together a campaign to put them out of business. They couldn't. Simply put, there's no zoning and nobody to complain to out here. NOBODY IS ACCOUNTABLE or at least nobody knows who is accountable. The area has become too large for the county to handle with its limited ordinance making ability and Houston's been pretty happy with the status quo extracting sales tax dollars from its Limited Purpose Annexation. Add to that the abundance of Section 8 and tax-credit apartments enabled by County/State/Federal authorities that saw an area of opportunity, with great schools, cheap land and no zoning...voila!

Your government quietly came in and screwed it up for everyone. End the subsidies and half the problem goes away once they move on to easier pickings. Create a TIRZ and/or incorporation and you're on the road to recovery.

Neighborhoods like Ponderosa and Greenwood are still very nice looking neighborhoods. Many of the original residents still live there. I was looking at those great photos of Yorkshire on the other board and couldn't help but think how much it looks like the above neighborhoods. My parents moved out here in the early 1970's. At the time, they were torn between Wilchester and Greenwood Forest. They were both at a similar price range back in the 70's and 80's. Similar looking homes, similar demographic. Its sad to see them having a difficult time with the decline in schools. Nonetheless, something needs to change over there and I hope this article wakes people up all over unincorporated Houston.

My in-laws were faced with the same choice when they moved to Houston in the late 70's. Champions or Wilchester. They chose Wilchester because of the bayou/horses and because they didn't want to travel 1960. I guess those lights were daunting even back then. But they must have been very similar at some point for both our families to chose between the two.

[crunchtastic]

I find it hysterical that people are folding their tent and moving north -- in some cases just a few miles -- don't you see that 1960 is not the Berlin Wall ... that much of this is just part of living in Southeast Texas? Or building a home in a brand new subdivision in the middle of nowhere is no guarantee that in 10 years your area won't look just like where you left?

Exactly. How much more can people move? If Harris County has a median household income of $42,000 (2004 number) whether its 1960 or another part of the county, half of the general population doesn't make enough money to buy a house in, say Greenwood. They have to live somewhere. They live in apartments. Population goes up, and more people who can't afford to buy houses move in. More apartments go in. People who can afford it can keep moving away (away from Metro and apartments) or, they can decide they're going to coexist with the other half of the world who don't make as much money as they do. Not working together on a better community just perpeutates the cycle. Lots of people want to talk about 'growth,' but few want to tackle the underlying issue, which is integrating quality affordable housing into communities across the metro area.

[TheNiche]

Lots of people want to talk about 'growth,' but few want to tackle the underlying issue, which is integrating quality affordable housing into communities across the metro area.

The issue isn't about quality housing. It is about quality people.

[memebag]

The issue isn't about quality housing. It is about quality people.

Huh?

[TheNiche]

Huh?

You were the one that defended billboards from Mayor White in another thread. You liked them.

This cross is just another form of outdoor advertising. They're trying to attract parishoners just as any business would be trying to attract customers.

[memebag]

You were the one that defended billboards from Mayor White in another thread. You liked them.

This cross is just another form of outdoor advertising. They're trying to attract parishoners just as any business would be trying to attract customers.

Wrong thread.

[Jedijake]

All of the reasons that have been stated are 100% true. Diffusion from the cities, Katrina, etc etc etc.

However, there are a few other reasons that tie into the others.

The lack of zoning has already been mentioned. The so-called "less government" that allows anyone and their uncles to put up any kind of business anywhere they want supposedly adds to a free market, but has also lead to people putting up odd businesses in very strange places with little to no profit. There are too many people in the businessworld that believe in small business but have NO intelligence on how to do it and then suffer likewise

At the same time, the new trend of putting up empty shells for lease by so-called "developers" (they aren't really developing anything) has lead to decay all over the place. For some way-out reason, people think that they can put up a building and have a sign that says "for lease" and think that businesses are going to fall out of the sky, especially in this wonderful economy, without seeming to seek out what will make it unique.

How many nail salons, donut shops, etc. do we actually need? At least there has been somewhat of a decline of these eyesores in the past several months. Somebody's finally got the idea that the economy is NOT going to get any better anytime real soon so there's no point in putting up that crap.

Then, onto the apartment issue. I was very pleased that a low income complex that was going to go up at Northpointe and 249 was nixed in place of a high luxury complex. Such is not the case on 1960 ANYWHERE. I can't imagine there are enough people to possibly fill these complexes. Has anyone done any research to find out whether these are getting filled?

You used to have your nice complexes and your "lower" complexes. I moved to the Cypress area in 2002 and there were plenty of complexes, but you could be selective. Now, within the past 2 or 3 years (possibly due to someone trying to make a buck off of Katrina), beautiful complexes are being built to accommodate lower income families. Since it is becoming VERY hard to distinguish, you are getting a BIG mix of people there.

Then, as a result of the low interest rates from a couple of years ago, many many people bought houses (since they are affordable in the Houston area) and less professionals lived in the complexes.

Whenever you have areas that were built primarily for young people entering the professional world, those areas are going to turn into ghetto/crime-ridden areas within 10-20 years. My sister moved down here in 1978 and lived in Birnham Woods in Spring. She left that neighborhood in 1997, about 3-4 years after it started turning REAL bad. The problem with it was that ALL of the homes were small and custom made for young, small families just starting out. There was NOTHING to balance it. So, urban folks began to move there when more neighborhoods with a mix of smaller and larger homes were being built. 1960 in Spring is infested with those types of neighborhoods.

The Cypress area and the Woodlands particularly have the newer neighborhoods that have homes starting in the $120's-$150's but stretching to the $300's. But if you go to the southwest side of the Cy-Fair district, you will find homes going from the $80's to the very low $100's. That area is becoming bogged down with foreclosures and it is very frightning to see what is going to happen to that area.

But yeah, mostly the 1960 area is becoming more and more urban and run down and that happens everywhere in the world. At least the immediate Champions area (Champions Forest and 1960) is still pretty nice, albeit a very small area.

[Forest]

But yeah, mostly the 1960 area is becoming more and more urban and run down and that happens everywhere in the world. At least the immediate Champions area (Champions Forest and 1960) is still pretty nice, albeit a very small area.

OK, my thought is this: Imagine FM 1960 without all the nail salons, tanning places and other crap -- which were all there 10 years ago when I moved here so it's nothing new. But let's say you're someone living inside the loop renting an apartment and you want to move out into your first home. Here's your list of what you want and how you can get it by living off 1960:

--To be close to mass transit (Kuykendahl Park & Ride & Seton Lake Park & Ride off Bammel, plus bus service on 1960)

-- You want upscale restaurants you could possibly walk to (Champions Village with Barnes & Noble, Pei Wei, La Mad & across the street from that there's RockFish, Carraba's, Container Store etc.)

--You want great medical care without having to go to the Medical Center or the Woodlands(there's Methodist Willowbrook plus all of the stuff down at Red Oak & Houston Northwest)

--You want trees and not a concrete jungle of new homes (Greenwood Forest, Huntwick, Champions)

--You want to live somewhere without exorbitant fees but with a neighborhood pool and tennis courts (see above)

--You want a diverse neighborhood and neighborhood schools but not just one that is full of only young familieis overrunning the facilities (see above.)

--You want a fairly low crime rate with high Constable visibility (I'm speaking as a Greenwood Forest homeowner ... but we've def. got that one covered.)

--You want an established neighborhood with custom homes that run between $50 and $70 per square foot (see all of the above)

I guess this is really a glass half-full, half-empty thing ... but my belief is that between all of the money in Northgate, Champions, the medical centers, the churches etc... FM 1960 is not down for the count.

[mrfootball]

OK, my thought is this: Imagine FM 1960 without all the nail salons, tanning places and other crap -- which were all there 10 years ago when I moved here so it's nothing new. But let's say you're someone living inside the loop renting an apartment and you want to move out into your first home. Here's your list of what you want and how you can get it by living off 1960:

--To be close to mass transit (Kuykendahl Park & Ride & Seton Lake Park & Ride off Bammel, plus bus service on 1960)

-- You want upscale restaurants you could possibly walk to (Champions Village with Barnes & Noble, Pei Wei, La Mad & across the street from that there's RockFish, Carraba's, Container Store etc.)

--You want great medical care without having to go to the Medical Center or the Woodlands(there's Methodist Willowbrook plus all of the stuff down at Red Oak & Houston Northwest)

--You want trees and not a concrete jungle of new homes (Greenwood Forest, Huntwick, Champions)

--You want to live somewhere without exorbitant fees but with a neighborhood pool and tennis courts (see above)

--You want a diverse neighborhood and neighborhood schools but not just one that is full of only young familieis overrunning the facilities (see above.)

--You want a fairly low crime rate with high Constable visibility (I'm speaking as a Greenwood Forest homeowner ... but we've def. got that one covered.)

--You want an established neighborhood with custom homes that run between $50 and $70 per square foot (see all of the above)

I guess this is really a glass half-full, half-empty thing ... but my belief is that between all of the money in Northgate, Champions, the medical centers, the churches etc... FM 1960 is not down for the count.

I agree. There are many parts of 1960 that are booming.

NW Harris County is booming.

If you'd like to get an idea how NW Harris County neighborhoods compare to other burbs, here's one of the best sites I've found:

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/

[Vertigo58]

The horrible "look" of 1960 is what fuels the doubt about wanting to live there. The zoning or "lack of" is what let the magnificently ugly crammed shopping strips, signs, billboards, and even worse the ditches that lineit for miles. It is even worse at night, most big intersections do not even have readable signs if at all. It was very embarassing to bring clients from out of state to that area but we had to becasue of the nearby airport.

1960 began ugly and the cancer only spread more and more and more. While working weekends at the FEMA recovery center,we always had to ask each person where they were moved to and 90% said 1960 areas hoods. Truth.

[Forest]

1960 began ugly and the cancer only spread more and more and more. While working weekends at the FEMA recovery center,we always had to ask each person where they were moved to and 90% said 1960 areas hoods. Truth.

Ok, we have affordable housing .. and some of "those" people we all complain about start out living in those apartments and then become homeowners in these beautiful older neighborhoods. It's not like FM 1960 is the only big ugly street filled with strip centers and apartment complexes in Northwest Houston -- what about Louetta, Spring-Cypress etc. etc. You basically have an issue with this part of northwest Houston -- I'm thinking if you really want control and zoning -- I guess the Woodlands is your best bet. But then again, I knew a family who moved to the Woodlands only to have a less than desireable Katrina family living next door to them ..so maybe not.

[mrfootball]

Funny thing is, its pretty much this way all over Houston, save for a couple of large master-planned communities. Once you go outside these communities...same issue.

[Jedijake]

And it's like that in many many places all over the country. My parents left the Poconos in NE Pennsylvania in 2002 for the same basic reasons. And the people were not coming from down the street but rather cities 2-3 hours away (NYC, Newark, Philly).

I lived in Cypress-Station in 1994 when I first moved here. It was not great then with apartments costing $300-$350 a month. The trend was pretty obvious and the direction was very clear. It's just that certain events seem to have accelerated the process and become more public in the past 3 years (Katrina and the recession mainly).

But the question of debate still holds: who is moving into all of these apartment complexes and who is expected to lease in the empty shells of buildings meant for business?

Cheap land equals easy business for developers. What has not been anticipated is that the economy has not improved and does not show signs that it will anytime soon. This is the way the recession has hit this area.

But it's MUCH worse in MANY other places all over the country.

[TheNiche]

I lived in Cypress-Station in 1994 when I first moved here. It was not great then with apartments costing $300-$350 a month. The trend was pretty obvious and the direction was very clear. It's just that certain events seem to have accelerated the process and become more public in the past 3 years (Katrina and the recession mainly).

But the question of debate still holds: who is moving into all of these apartment complexes and who is expected to lease in the empty shells of buildings meant for business?

Cheap land equals easy business for developers. What has not been anticipated is that the economy has not improved and does not show signs that it will anytime soon. This is the way the recession has hit this area.

Actually, Cypress Station and the surrounding area has been a crappy apartment market for the whole of the last decade, and 2005 was a shot in the arm for leasing. But the state of its market in 2008 is as it was pre-2004 and all the way back to at least 1999...before that, I don't have any data.

I recall that Mr. Football's wife is politically connected somehow. He might pass along a message to push for a reform in the way that Tax Credit apartments are administered by the State. The criteria right now tend to favor that they be built in areas already getting poorer, only increasing the stock of affordable housing in a neighborhood that is already destined to be affordable. It is a self-defeating incentive which ought to be going for developments where affordable housing is becoming more scarce.

Cheap land equals easy business for developers. What has not been anticipated is that the economy has not improved and does not show signs that it will anytime soon. This is the way the recession has hit this area.

If the storefronts are vacant, then it is not easy business for developers.

I can point to numerous projects in which I've been involved (and often wantenly killed) where the land was cheap for a reason and even where proposed projects were actually infeasible at any land price. And I've witnessed where developers have recklessly tried and failed.

[hbcu]

I spent time inside the loop last weekend.....it's quieter on Washington Avenue than it is on 1960....much quieter