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McMansions in the suburbs make less sense with high energy prices


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I guess its time to put in my two cents, if anyone cares to read it:

First off, ed for making the thread civilized again.

You have all seen how I usually try to tell people who are asking our opinions that they should move depending on their lifestyle and I'm not very influenced by "school districts."

My reason for it (and Knowing a number of teachers in the past) is that its not the district that matters, but the parent involvement and the child's attitude that determines what a kid does.

A kid in private school can just as easily turn into a drug using scum on society as someone in public school.

Red pretty much summed everything I wanted to say previously on the matter so I won't go over it again,but I had to add about the schools.

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My last three jobs have been around I-45 S and Telephone, 59 S and BW8, and 290 and Gessner, and me living in nearby the city center his had a minimal impact on my driving time and driving distance.

I thought you lived in Uptown? Is that near the city center now?

It sounds like you (like most Houstonians) don't work in the CBD, and you commute to work (also like most Houstonians). If I moved closer to the city center, I'd have to commute further.

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It sounds, then, like suburbs are sustainable and that exurbs are not...but that as exurbs morph into suburbs, they become sustainable. So is there a problem?

Sure, if you want to invest time and money developing the far out areas of the city which can take decades (see example below of Bridgeland), while the inner areas already established get neglected.

Right now, they are selling homes and getting ready to have people move in to a neighborhood in the middle of nowhere. The jobs available right now to sustain anyone to even think about purchasing those homes are few and far between, with the majority having to drive 20+ miles each way I am sure. Maybe 30 years from now like all exurb to suburb transitions, closer jobs with office parks will come, but that is 30 years from now.

How far out is enough!

I mean, this website promoting Bridgeland is markting the top header with a view of the downtown Houston skyline! You have more of a chance of seeing a watertower in Hockley.

www.liveinbridgeland.com

65c2oi.jpg

They even show the location of the master plan like it is "in" Houston, pointing out locations like (but not mentioning the actual distance to it in miles so I added them):

Memorial City Mall - 15.8 miles

Galleria - 20.7

Texas Medical Center - 35.1 miles

Reliant Stadium - 34.8 miles

Downtown - 30.5 miles

not mentioned

Energy Corridor - 12.4 miles

These are distances from the welcome center on Fry Road, and this development goes way back beyond Grand Parkway! Just getting out of the neigborhood with the cul-de-sac driven design will add a couple of more miles and time each trip.

I thought you lived in Uptown? Is that near the city center now?

Of course it's near, how would you argue against it? :huh:

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Of course it's near, how would you argue against it? :huh:

Confidently! First, we'd have to define which city center we're talking about. I think the assumption is it's the CBD, but that Town & Country development claims they are the "demographic center" of Houston, whatever that means. Then we'd define what "near" means. I don't think of Uptown as near the CBD or Town & Country on the scale of daily commuting.

However, if we define the city center as the Water Wall fountain, then you do, in fact, live near the city center.

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Confidently! First, we'd have to define which city center we're talking about. I think the assumption is it's the CBD, but that Town & Country development claims they are the "demographic center" of Houston, whatever that means. Then we'd define what "near" means. I don't think of Uptown as near the CBD or Town & Country on the scale of daily commuting.

However, if we define the city center as the Water Wall fountain, then you do, in fact, live near the city center.

Comedian. . . I am a lot closer to the city center, where ever that exactly is, but I am sure it's not Spring, Cypress, Kingwood, Fairfield, Pearland, or even Bridgeland.

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Comedian. . . I am a lot closer to the city center, where ever that exactly is, but I am sure it's not Spring, Cypress, Kingwood, Fairfield, Pearland, or even Bridgeland.

As this city shifts west, I think those communities to the North and NE, becoming farther and farther from any Business District in Houston, will see the most decline. Therefore perhaps Bridgelands has a chance 30 years from now, but seriously...that is damn far out there.

I think the main point of all of this is that there is an energy crisis NOW. Living in the way out and working in the way in, doesn't make as much financial sense anymore. We don't have 30 years for those places to become evolved into self-sustaining sub-cities, as Niche so logically pointed out.

People are going to do what people are going to do. Everyone has their own personal straw that will break their back. Whether it's the cost of gas, the personal loss of time etc. Personally, I'm glad the move in is saving us some serious change. It's been a pleasant surprise and bonus.

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It sounds, then, like suburbs are sustainable and that exurbs are not...but that as exurbs morph into suburbs, they become sustainable. So is there a problem?

That depends on the area and its business base. Clear Lake is a good example- there are a lot of jobs in that area, same with The Woodlands which was built from the ground up to be a self sustaining entity. Both areas are still heavily skewed toward housing but there is still a strong business base in both. However, to me, it's seems like the trend over the past decade for master planned communities is to build nothing but housing, which turns everyone in them into commuters. I'm not discounting the fact that there is work all over this area, but the traffic into Houston on every major freeway says that there is a whole lot of commuting into the CBD going on out there.

What's the traffic like going into Cinco Ranch weekday mornings?

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As this city shifts west, I think those communities to the North and NE, becoming farther and farther from any Business District in Houston, will see the most decline. Therefore perhaps Bridgelands has a chance 30 years from now, but seriously...that is damn far out there.

I think the main point of all of this is that there is an energy crisis NOW. Living in the way out and working in the way in, doesn't make as much financial sense anymore. We don't have 30 years for those places to become evolved into self-sustaining sub-cities, as Niche so logically pointed out.

People are going to do what people are going to do. Everyone has their own personal straw that will break their back. Whether it's the cost of gas, the personal loss of time etc. Personally, I'm glad the more in, in saving us some serious change. It's been a pleasant surprise and bonus.

I think the city will shift more east as long as these gas prices last or increase. It might take a few years, but it WILL happen.

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I think the main point of all of this is that there is an energy crisis NOW. Living in the way out and working in the way in, doesn't make as much financial sense anymore. We don't have 30 years for those places to become evolved into self-sustaining sub-cities, as Niche so logically pointed out.

And to give the developers some credit, I am sure the whole masterplan was designed around the $1.50/gallon era at the time. Especially with the current housing market and foreclosures putting cheap homes back for sale, the people marketing that neighborhood are going to have to come up with more interesting positives to battle all the negatives that will keep people from living in isolation in the exurb.

I think the city will shift more east as long as these gas prices last or increase. It might take a few years, but it WILL happen.

Yeah, I can't imagine the "city center" ever getting to Grand Parkway under these conditions.

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Sure, if you want to invest time and money developing the far out areas of the city which can take decades (see example below of Bridgeland), while the inner areas already established get neglected.

Right now, they are selling homes and getting ready to have people move in to a neighborhood in the middle of nowhere. The jobs available right now to sustain anyone to even think about purchasing those homes are few and far between, with the majority having to drive 20+ miles each way I am sure. Maybe 30 years from now like all exurb to suburb transitions, closer jobs with office parks will come, but that is 30 years from now.

How far out is enough!

But even as they themselves are further from work and shopping, that doesn't mean that they stop working or shopping. They add to the labor and consumer pool, which is what justifies the transformation of closer-in jobless exurbs to sustainable suburbs.

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That depends on the area and its business base. Clear Lake is a good example- there are a lot of jobs in that area, same with The Woodlands which was built from the ground up to be a self sustaining entity. Both areas are still heavily skewed toward housing but there is still a strong business base in both. However, to me, it's seems like the trend over the past decade for master planned communities is to build nothing but housing, which turns everyone in them into commuters. I'm not discounting the fact that there is work all over this area, but the traffic into Houston on every major freeway says that there is a whole lot of commuting into the CBD going on out there.

What's the traffic like going into Cinco Ranch weekday mornings?

In the almost 3 years we lived in the Woodlands, there was one family in our little subdivisionlette up there that actually worked up at Market Street...25 minutes away. Everyone else was Beltway 8 and on inward. I think maybe I met a small handful in all that time that actually worked there. Most of the husbands came crawling in around 7:00 each night.

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I drove from Midtown to work in The Woodlands (New Trails Drive).

Lot's of good living in the urban core did me back then.

Very few people who I worked with actually live in The Woodlands. The few that did often told me they never went south of 1960

.

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But even as they themselves are further from work and shopping, that doesn't mean that they stop working or shopping. They add to the labor and consumer pool, which is what justifies the transformation of closer-in jobless exurbs to sustainable suburbs.

Sustainable suburbian work and shopping are usually in the form of poorly designed, car-centric sprawling strip centers and office parks.

No thanks . . .I have lived in College Station, Houston is better than that and I wish it could improve.

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Sustainable suburbian work and shopping are usually in the form of poorly designed, car-centric sprawling strip centers and office parks.

Yep, but they're closer to where people actually live, and that's the important thing. They also enable more reverse commuting, and that's good too.

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Yep, but they're closer to where people actually live, and that's the important thing. They also enable more reverse commuting, and that's good too.

Then the Bridgeland marketing team should remove the Houston downtown skyline from their website and replace it with office parks, Home Depot and Walmart strip centers, and a Whataburger joint. That's is the sprawling environment that will actually surround Bridgeland.

This is how these developers promote themselves to sell you and make you believe that your new homes is reasonably "in" the city, to be referencing imagery of downtown Houston.

At this rate, a few years from now a Hempstead area developer will be promoting themselves as a Houston suburb and show imagery of downtown Houston.

Again, how far out is enough. :rolleyes:

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Then the Bridgeland marketing team should remove the Houston downtown skyline from their website and replace it with office parks, Home Depot and Walmart strip centers, and a Whataburger joint. That's is the sprawling environment that will actually surround Bridgeland.

This is how these developers promote themselves to sell you and make you believe that your new homes is reasonably "in" the city, to be referencing imagery of downtown Houston.

At this rate, a few years from now a Hempstead area developer will be promoting themselves as a Houston suburb and show imagery of downtown Houston.

Again, how far out is enough. :rolleyes:

Are marketing materials really the crux of a problem?

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Perhaps someone could start a thread about where you live (no specifics) and where you work (no specifics) and what your commute time is and what route it primarily uses. I would be intested in an informal poll of this nature that would give us a glimpse.

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For occasional self-torture, I watch "Hot on Houston"... think it comes on Saturday mornings...

Those way out subdivisions... listen carefully... it's not "Minutes from downtown" ... It is "Minutes... from Hwy 6..." What?!?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig...

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For occasional self-torture, I watch "Hot on Houston"... think it comes on Saturday mornings...

Those way out subdivisions... listen carefully... it's not "Minutes from downtown" ... It is "Minutes... from Hwy 6..." What?!?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig...

Well shoot, if I drive at a high enough velocity, Galveston is only minutes from downtown, not an hour and not hours, and there's no intermediate unit of measure.

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Are marketing materials really the crux of a problem?

Sure, they are misrepresenting the developement and creating an imagery that the new home owner will be within a reasonable distance to those locations indicated on the map. The map does not even have a distance scale to show the true miles to each destination. That is just too far from CBD to be promoting Bridgeland like that.

These people buy into it, thus support crap sprawling developments like this.

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Perhaps someone could start a thread about where you live (no specifics) and where you work (no specifics) and what your commute time is and what route it primarily uses. I would be intested in an informal poll of this nature that would give us a glimpse.

Of course. Since I've been jawing as much as anyone on this thread, I live in Shady Acres and work Downtown. Oh, and I drive a hybrid;-) My route is Shepherd to Memorial most of the time but I mix it up a lot to keep the 15 minute drive interesting. If Houston ever got off it's tail and built the Nicholson Street Hike and Bike trail to Downtown I might even bike to work someday.

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Of course. Since I've been jawing as much as anyone on this thread, I live in Shady Acres and work Downtown. Oh, and I drive a hybrid;-) If Houston ever got off it's tail and built the Nicholson Street Hike and Bike trail to Downtown I might even bike to work someday.

Kirkwood and Memorial. Job is at Kirkwood and I-10. Hubby does bike or walk when the weather is nice.

Sure, they are misrepresenting the developement and creating an imagery that the new home owner will be within a reasonable distance to those locations indicated on the map. The map does not even have a distance scale to show the true miles to each destination. If they like to show downtown Houston, try at least building something within the BW8 ring at least. That is just too far from CBD to be promoting Bridgeland like that.

These people buy into it, thus support crap sprawling developments like this.

I wish some development company would get more agressive in the Northern Spring Branch area building mid-range homes. So many possibilites over there and incredible location.

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Sure, they are misrepresenting the developement and creating an imagery that the new home owner will be within a reasonable distance to those locations indicated on the map. The map does not even have a distance scale to show the true miles to each destination. That is just too far from CBD to be promoting Bridgeland like that.

These people buy into it, thus support crap sprawling developments like this.

Yeah. People are buying houses in Bridgeland because they're being misled into how far it is from dowtown. Because Bridgeland's marketing material is the first map of the city they've ever seen. :wacko:

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For occasional self-torture, I watch "Hot on Houston"... think it comes on Saturday mornings...

Those way out subdivisions... listen carefully... it's not "Minutes from downtown" ... It is "Minutes... from Hwy 6..." What?!?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig...

I know, I have heard commercials and billboards for Fall Creek. The website promotes driving times on the front page.

So much, So Close!

location_map.jpg

Just 10 minutes to take off (the only true statement)

Just 15 minutes to downtown destinations! (sure with no traffic)

18 miles (not including cul-de-sac maze exit distance), or driving from your house at minimum 72 mph

Just 20 minutes to medical miracles! (sure with no traffic)

22 miles (not including cul-de-sac maze exit distance), or driving from your house at minimum 66 mph

Just 25 minutes to spectacular shopping (Galleria is shown, completely ignoring the Walmart just down the road, only 5 minutes away.)

28 miles (not including cul-de-sac maze exit distance), or driving from your house at minimum 67 mph

I guess they neglected to calculate traffic into the equation and they expect people to drive over 60 mph in the residential areas. I guess they must allow it if they advertise it.

Keep your kids off the street please! :lol:

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Are marketing materials really the crux of a problem?

Yes! Absolutely. It's always just "minutes from the Galleria" or "minutes from Downtown." (I think "minutes from Westpark Tollway or I-10" is an even grosser representation.) Maybe "$30 from the Galleria" or "$75 from Downtown" would be a useful standard of measure. Do new residents in the region ever look further than the Chronicle?

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Or, as in my Fall Creek marketing example above, they neglect real traffic conditions, stop lights, stop signs, school zones etc.

You are not driving 70 mph from your garage to your parking space in downtown. Even changing 15 to 25 minutes is a lie. I like the idea of miles, or dollar amounts better. They should use that to show how unrealistic it is to live there.

The developers, like Bridgeland and Fall Creek want SO bad to be included in all the conveniences and ammenities people in midtown, Rice village, uptown, downtown enjoy.

Make the front page of their website promote the conveniences and ammenities that people will use and have close access to within 15 minutes, like Walmart, Home Depot, and Whataburger, or just tell them, you are living way out in BFE.

Why lie. Becuase they want to promote the craptacular sprawling development in the middle of nowhere.

Greedy bastards. <_<

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Yes! Absolutely. It's always just "minutes from the Galleria" or "minutes from Downtown." (I think "minutes from Westpark Tollway or I-10" is an even grosser representation.) Maybe "$30 from the Galleria" or "$75 from Downtown" would be a useful standard of measure. Do new residents in the region ever look further than the Chronicle?

So you don't think that people who would spend $200,000 on a new home would bother to drive out to it, at least once, to figure out what the drive feels like? :huh:

I can't think of too many people that are ever willing to buy something sight unseen on the basis that an ad made it seem nice and well-located.

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