McMansions in the suburbs make less sense with high energy prices

[Gary]

I think the clear difference between the past developements and present developements is that the past was not done for profit nor was it predetermined for us.

It was to establish new settlements on arable land near bodies of water and create a civilization, not master planned communities with no depth in them.

Read the article again if you don't get what point A and point B are in context to was I am referring to.

What do propose for the 3.5 million of us living in the burbs? Do we tear down most of the existing infrastructure in Houston, and rebuild?

I've yet to hear an answer to this, and I think it's extremely relevent to your argument.

[memebag]

I think the clear difference between the past developements and present developements is that the past was not done for profit nor was it predetermined for us.

It was to establish new settlements on arable land near bodies of water and create a civilization, not master planned communities with no depth in them.

You have an odd view of history. Neither profit nor master planned communities are recent inventions in real estate development. I don't understand what you mean by "nor was it predetermined for us", so I can't begin to comment on that.

I recommend reading Robert Breugmann's "Sprawl: A Compact History" for additional perspective on the subject.

[sarahiki]

No, Houstonians were near sighted with cheap gas, and settled for cheaper land and housing further away because of it.

Housing is still cheaper further away, but gas has gotten more expensive, thus the real savings advantage is dwindling.

I don't think you've really done the math. As I wrote earlier today, houses in the burbs can be 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of an inner loop house. If I can buy a house out there for 200K and a similar or smaller house ITL for 400K, I have to buy an awful lot of gas before it stops being a good deal to get the 200K house. I'm not sure you've realized what the disparity is these days in real estate costs.

Of course, there are innumerable things you clearly haven't realized. See above. and above. and above...

[Pumapayam]

What do propose for the 3.5 million of us living in the burbs? Do we tear down most of the existing infrastructure in Houston, and rebuild?

I've yet to hear an answer to this, and I think it's extremely relevent to your argument.

What's done is done, the damage is done, it's built, might as well use live in it rather than let it go to waste.

But the rate of these new sprawls being built by developers is well over the actual demand.

The demand only exists because they offer it so cheaply. If the homes were built with better materials and quality and had ammenties other than a rentention pond and a golf course (waste of land), I can see it being worth something.

If they built homes a bit smaller, better quality, and incorporated more infrustrature, like grided neighborhoods instead of cul-de-sacs, it would be a better developement worth the price that can eventually turn into something better.

I don't understand what you mean by "nor was it predetermined for us", so I can't begin to comment on that.

An example being Bridgeland. I don't think people were begging for a house in the middle of nowhere until they decided to make up a fancy name, stick a golf course in it and call it a masterplanned community.

But since a developer decided to create a master planned community, the demand is there.

Someone should redo Sharpstown.

I don't think you've really done the math. As I wrote earlier today, houses in the burbs can be 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of an inner loop house. If I can buy a house out there for 200K and a similar or smaller house ITL for 400K, I have to buy an awful lot of gas before it stops being a good deal to get the 200K house. I'm not sure you've realized what the disparity is these days in real estate costs.

Of course, there are innumerable things you clearly haven't realized. See above. and above. and above...

Gas money is one thing, my life wasted in traffic because I decided to live 15 miles further away is another.

I can't put a price on that, but my free time after work and before bed is worth more to me having an extra 45-90 minutes a day to do what I want.

[TheNiche]

But the rate of these new sprawls being built by developers is well over the actual demand.

Actually, the number of months of unsold inventory is coming down, Puma. You're very wrong.

The demand only exists because they offer it so cheaply. If the homes were built with better materials and quality and had ammenties other than a rentention pond and a golf course (waste of land), I can see it being worth something.

Yeah, because only quality construction is undertaken in the inner city, right?

[Cue Lemon Lady]

And FYI, retention ponds are flood control. Flood control is an amenity, and one that much of the inner city sorely lacks.

[sarahiki]

Gas money is one thing, my life wasted in traffic because I decided to live 15 miles further away is another.

I can't put a price on that, but my free time after work and before bed is worth more to me having an extra 45-90 minutes a day to do what I want.

Nobody is asking you to.

And I'm just asking you to stop and recognize that not everyone has the extra 200k lying around. So instead of implying that people are stupid, or deserve to pay $10/gallon because they're so stupid and irresponsible, just recognize that it's actually not a dumb decision to move 15 minutes away and save 200K. And have better schools. And sidewalks for their kids to ride bikes. And parks that aren't full of broken glass and condoms. And less crime.

It could be argued that it's smart, actually.

[TheNiche]

But since a developer decided to create a master planned community, the demand is there.

Someone should redo Sharpstown.

Gas money is one thing, my life wasted in traffic because I decided to live 15 miles further away is another.

I can't put a price on that, but my free time after work and before bed is worth more to me having an extra 45-90 minutes a day to do what I want.

You're right, most peoples' time is worth far more than the out-of-pocket costs of transportation, even at present. That's why toll roads with congestion pricing are such a magnificent thing. Even still, you can put a price on your time. How much would I have to pay you per hour to drive around? Would $50 per hour do it? What about $100? What about $1,000 per hour? Surely you can be bought off.

[HeightsGuy]

I don't think you've really done the math. As I wrote earlier today, houses in the burbs can be 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of an inner loop house. If I can buy a house out there for 200K and a similar or smaller house ITL for 400K, I have to buy an awful lot of gas before it stops being a good deal to get the 200K house. I'm not sure you've realized what the disparity is these days in real estate costs.

Of course, there are innumerable things you clearly haven't realized. See above. and above. and above...

I don't get it. Your "gas" money has no return on investment, why would you pull that out as a benefit to living in the burbs....?

[Gary]

What's done is done, the damage is done, it's built, might as well use live in it rather than let it go to waste.

But the rate of these new sprawls being built by developers is well over the actual demand.

The demand only exists because they offer it so cheaply. If the homes were built with better materials and quality and had ammenties other than a rentention pond and a golf course (waste of land), I can see it being worth something.

If they built homes a bit smaller, better quality, and incorporated more infrustrature, like grided neighborhoods instead of cul-de-sacs, it would be a better developement worth the price that can eventually turn into something better.

An example being Bridgeland. I don't think people were begging for a house in the middle of nowhere until they decided to make up a fancy name, stick a golf course in it and call it a masterplanned community.

But since a developer decided to create a master planned community, the demand is there.

Someone should redo Sharpstown.

Gas money is one thing, my life wasted in traffic because I decided to live 15 miles further away is another.

I can't put a price on that, but my free time after work and before bed is worth more to me having an extra 45-90 minutes a day to do what I want.

I'm just going to leave this alone because your reasoning is for the most part flawed, and you obviously have such a slanted view that you can't see what anyone here is talking about. Apparently everyone, including me, is a clueless moron where this subject is concerned, and our waste of space golf courses, and stupid culdesacs should go jump in the retention pond.

[sarahiki]

I don't get it. Your "gas" money has no return on investment, why would you pull that out as a benefit to living in the burbs....?

I don't understand the question. But it's the middle of the night where I am so perhaps I'm foggy. The point is that I don't see the logic of paying an additional 200K to save money on gas. If you happen to have the money, sure. Property is a great investment. But if you don't have the money... well, I guess the question is moot.

Good night HAIFers, inside and outside the loop.

[memebag]

Gas money is one thing, my life wasted in traffic because I decided to live 15 miles further away is another.

I can't put a price on that, but my free time after work and before bed is worth more to me having an extra 45-90 minutes a day to do what I want.

Look at your posts. This is the first in which you've owned these as your own opinions, and not universal truths. It's very different to say that you would rather spend more money for a house to spend less time in traffic than it is to say anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.

[jgriff]

I think the clear difference between the past developements and present developements is that the past was not done for profit

You just lost all credibility here. You don't think people moved to new locations in the past to make money? Remember when the Romans forcibly expanded their empire all the way to England in order to extract taxes and trade profits from all of Europe? All those gaurds maning Hadrian's wall in England were put there for profit.

[Pumapayam]

I'm just going to leave this alone because your reasoning is for the most part flawed, and you obviously have such a slanted view that you can't see what anyone here is talking about.

Positives and negative aspects exist for both ubran and suburban living

I think the negatives of sprawling suburbs outwiegh the positives.

For each response I give, a reactionary response, that is perfectly correct will show how my ideals are wrong.

And I can do the same, and go on and one, topic by topic. . .

Sprawl is not good for Houston. Sums it up for me, and that is my take.

You just lost all credibility here. You don't think people moved to new locations in the past to make money? Remember when the Romans forcibly expanded their empire all the way to England in order to extract taxes and trade profits from all of Europe? All those gaurds maning Hadrian's wall in England were put there for profit.

Point noted, still not the same. That sounds more like a modern invasion of Houston from another city.

[HeightsGuy]

I don't understand the question. But it's the middle of the night where I am so perhaps I'm foggy. The point is that I don't see the logic of paying an additional 200K to save money on gas. If you happen to have the money, sure. Property is a great investment. But if you don't have the money... well, I guess the question is moot.

Good night HAIFers, inside and outside the loop.

Let me break it down a bit more. Very rough numbers, but $200,000 is about $1200 per month on a 30yr mortgage. A couple living in The Woodlands putting 70 miles a day on their vehicles, his truck and her Tahoe, probably run through $1000 a month in gas.

Go ahead and pan my choice as it's a little exaggerated, but I know families out there shelling out $700+ a month now for gas. And sure, chalk it up to the cost of living along with the skinny latte, but at some point it's no longer how can you afford to live inside the city, but how can you not.

Again, for the record, I am not denigrating the suburbs or people who live and work in Clear Lake.

[musicman]

I can't put a price on that, but my free time after work and before bed is worth more to me having an extra 45-90 minutes a day to do what I want.

it's obviously not THAT valuable if you live 9-12 miles away from work. you could easily have 2 or more hrs more.

[TheNiche]

And sure, chalk it up to the cost of living along with the skinny latte, but at some point it's no longer how can you afford to live inside the city, but how can you not.

Because they don't both work downtown.

According the the U.S. Census' LEHD program, only 5.8% of all employed persons that reside in The Woodlands commute downtown. The odds that a husband and wife both lived in The Woodlands and worked downtown would be approximately 0.3%

[cla]

What do propose for the 3.5 million of us living in the burbs? Do we tear down most of the existing infrastructure in Houston, and rebuild?

I've yet to hear an answer to this, and I think it's extremely relevent to your argument.

Sounds like that is what puma is suggesting - build up instead of out.

[Pumapayam]

it's obviously not THAT valuable if you live 9-12 miles away from work. you could easily have 2 or more hrs more.

Everything has to be just so with you doesn't it. . .

Please come up with response that relates to the topic and less about responding for the sake of responding.

Or, puma is suggesting that instead of building new homes, that everyone buy an existing home.

[sowanome]

Sounds like that is what puma is suggesting - build up instead of out. Force everyone to live in a high rise and literally crawl all over each other in the streets.

Whats wrong with living in high rises? This is what's going on in the rest of the high population cities in America (excluding LA)....

[Pumapayam]

Sounds like that is what puma is suggesting - build up instead of out. Force everyone to live in a high rise and literally crawl all over each other in the streets.

Whats wrong with living in high rises? This is what's going on in the rest of the high population cities in America (excluding LA)....

Tokyo is already set up for almost little impact with gasoline, as is New York.

Adapting to living in smaller places and using instead parks, cafes, and other public places more is not a Houston trend.

Myself included, I have 2 empty bedrooms still. I am happy to have the big space in my house, but that is the Houston mentality. 5 years later, I still have no use for it, other than when guests come over, and I will likely never have a roommate.

[editor]

140 replies in 12 hours. I'd say this issue touches a nerve with some people.

[musicman]

Adapting to living in smaller places and using instead parks, cafes, and other public places more is not a Houston trend.

Myself included, I have 2 empty bedrooms still. I am happy to have the big space in my house, but that is the Houston mentality. 5 years later, I still have no use for it, other than when guests come over, and I will likely never have a roommate.

so you're NOT adapting to living in smaller places. wasting energy by cooling/heating space you don't need. driving farther than you need to. but yet you advocate everyone else to change their lifestyle.

[HeightsGuy]

Because they don't both work downtown.

According the the U.S. Census' LEHD program, only 5.8% of all employed persons that reside in The Woodlands commute downtown. The odds that a husband and wife both lived in The Woodlands and worked downtown would be approximately 0.3%

I didn't say they worked downtown, I said they were putting 70 miles a day each on their cars. Also, 300,000 vehicles a day pass 610 on the North Freeway. Where are they coming from if only 5.8% of The Woodlands goes through there?

[TexasVines]

the real stupidity to one side of this argument especially in relation to Houston is that people pretend that there are not plenty of places to work in the suburbs

Doctors and Dentist have offices all over now......a two parent family (that rarity) and both are teachers....both can work at schools close to home

the higher ups in fast food and restaurants can make plenty of money especially if the wife works.......someone owns the strip centers......someone manages them....someone sells the houses.....someone teaches at the community colleges and UH branch campuses......someone cleans them...someone manages the walgreens

if we listened to one side of the argument in this thread......we would have the same issue, but the traffic flow would just be reversed as people left their cramped up highrise housing and fight the traffic to get to their suburban job in a mall restaurant or strip center.....that or I guess we could have 1 pharmacy with 5,000 lines and one Mcdonalds with 5,000 lines.....that or do without

because there will always be people that prefer not to live stacked up like Japanese or to have to hit golf balls from a three story range and never play a true round of golf in your life because some don't like "sprawl" (yes I know Japan has space issues....Houston does not that is the point)....if some want to live stacked on each other be my guest....just don't force it on others

some people like open spaces.....some people like 10 acres and a horse and 3 dogs and 5 chickens......some people just have this strong desire to take that from them and cram them into a box

if people want to pay to live in the burbs there are probably plenty of near by jobs that will pay people enough to live there.....and those that choose to drive 3 hours to work.....probably did not do a good job looking for where to live VS where they work.....especially in Houston where you can find plenty of places to live close to major employment centers all over the area

it is not like it is just acres of houses all 1.5 hours drive from ANY place that employees people.....far from it especially in Houston

[TheNiche]

Whats wrong with living in high rises? This is what's going on in the rest of the high population cities in America (excluding LA)....

You got that right. They're certainly high if they're paying that kind of rent.

I didn't say they worked downtown, I said they were putting 70 miles a day each on their cars. Also, 300,000 vehicles a day pass 610 on the North Freeway. Where are they coming from if only 5.8% of The Woodlands goes through there?

Ummm...not The Woodlands.

I'm thinking that north Harris County might be a viable answer. That, and reverse commuters taking advantage of our bi-directional freeways.

[MidtownCoog]

And sure, chalk it up to the cost of living along with the skinny latte, but at some point it's no longer how can you afford to live inside the city, but how can you not.

I wonder if every exburber is participating in your economic recession?

[plumber2]

Wow, I've been reading this thread but trying to stay out of it. Heightsguy needs to lighten up on us commuters.

Some of us, who have been here a long time, just can't embrace the inner loop areas like most new comers can. We still see it as the seedy, strange, and sometimes dangerous area that it was when we were growing up.

My grandparents moved to the Heights (a suburb) in the 1920's, and stayed there for nearly 70 years.

My parents built out on Westheimer and Chimney Rock in the late 1940's. People questioned them at the time that they were moving too far out.

I followed my parents to Galveston County and have been here over 25 years. I like being able to commute to the Medical Center. Although I may have to get a motorcycle if the price of gasoline gets any higher.

People have got to live were they can afford to. Something inside the loop within my price range would scare my wife away. Hmmm.

[cla]

Whats wrong with living in high rises? This is what's going on in the rest of the high population cities in America (excluding LA)....

I didn't say there was anything wrong with living in high rises. Forcing people to live in high rises is a different story. The reason NY and Japan build up is because they can't build out. So there is no choice. The mass of land around Houston affords us the opportunity to choose whether or not we live close to the epicenter or 30 miles out.

Personally, I like choices. Let me choose to live where I want, you live where you want, and I won't denigrate your choice even if you choose to denigrate mine.

And just something else to think about. The MPC's that exist in Houston today were fueled by the needs and desires at the time they were originally conceived. Cinco Ranch goes back about 15 years or so, doesn't it? Rules and guidelines were put in place to ensure that it was developed as originally intended. Today, developers of MPC's are considering population density. I recently did some research on traditional neighborhood developments because I noticed that Cinco Ranch 2 is putting in a TND. I discovered that Newland communities, as well as other developers, are now including TNDs in all of their new MPCs. A TND will bring a more urban lifestyle within a suburban development. Apparently, developers are responding to the needs of the times. We just don't realize it because from the onset of the idea to the actual construction of that idea takes years. Telfair and Cinco are both going to benefit from the TND concept. From what I have been able to gather, these are going to be built in the final phases of the MPCs. Perhaps because it is a new concept in the suburbs and the developers are waiting to make sure the rest of the community is ready for the change? In the Cinco area, I think the apts that are going to be above the retail in phase 2 of La Centerra are part of this new urbanization of the suburbs. I think it will ease the transition of the TNDs that are planned for Cinco 2.

Of course, 10 years from now TNDs will be out and something else will be in. And 10 years from now, after he gets married and has kids, just which suburb do you think puma will move to? :-)

[Pumapayam]

Wow, I've been reading this thread but trying to stay out of it. Heightsguy needs to lighten up on us commuters.

Some of us, who have been here a long time, just can't embrace the inner loop areas like most new comers can. We still see it as the seedy, strange, and sometimes dangerous area that it was when we were growing up.

If quality people who abandoned those inner loop neighborhoods comeback and reinvest we can change that.

I know Sharpstown is not inner loop, but it has reasonably priced homes, good sized lots, and ready for people to fix up the area and for developers to redo the old mall and surrounding retaill.

[VicMan]

There are other factors too. Want to send your kids to a good school? Good luck with HISD. Why pay all that money to live in the inner loop - and pay to send your kids to private school - when you have good school districts like CCISD. You pay the school tax. Why not get your money out of that expense? Calculate the cost of sending your kids to private school, in addition to the money you must pour down the drain to HISD, and then see if inner loop living (with children at least) is such a good bargain.

People in the wealthier parts of HISD do not need a lot of good luck as the schools considered to be the best are within those parts. Also HISD has a fairly low tax rate.

Anyhow, parts of southern Katy area are in good positions as they are close to the Energy Corridor.