Road Noise And Its Implications To Neighborhoods In The Woodlands

[woody_hawkeye]

I am starting this as a separate thread instead of embedding it in another. We have certain expectations when we live in a natural environment. Although we have to to put up with concrete in an urban master planned community, there is debate on how much noise and light pollution can be tolerated. I begin with a measuring project on one location. I have two additional locations in the queue. This data was collected on Glosling, a north/south road of The Woodlands. There are no conclusions presented, only the data that was collected and some commonly known benchmarks for comparison purposes.

Woodlands Commentary - Gosling Road noise

[ricco67]

I am starting this as a separate thread instead of embedding it in another. We have certain expectations when we live in a natural environment. Although we have to to put up with concrete in an urban master planned community, there is debate on how much noise and light pollution can be tolerated. I begin with a measuring project on one location. I have two additional locations in the queue. This data was collected on Glosling, a north/south road of The Woodlands. There are no conclusions presented, only the data that was collected and some commonly known benchmarks for comparison purposes.

Woodlands Commentary - Gosling Road noise

Actually, I do believe this should have been merged with the existing conversation on this topic. The course of the conversation is bound to take the same direction. Sorry.

[woody_hawkeye]

Actually, I do believe this should have been merged with the existing conversation on this topic. The course of the conversation is bound to take the same direction. Sorry.

I think you will see shortly why I believe this should be separate. Although road design and materials have a way of impacting this, the subject goes far beyond into the design of the neighborhood itself. Although related to mobility and a convenient place to make mention of this, it turns out to be a broader subject where the abatement strategies of existing areas near roads becomes the major concern. For example, we start talking about what best to do in the residential cooridors near major streets. Do we build something to deal with the issue? Or is it a mobility issue outright where there should be no regard to noise? The Woodlands has already had one sound abatement project axed. As far as I can tell, the answer is "just deal with it".

[RedScare]

We have certain expectations when we live in a natural environment.

I don't think 4,000 square foot homes built on 55 foot wide lots qualifies as "a natural environment". In fact, the complaints and wishes of Woodlands residents to reduce nearby road noise sound distinctly urban, just like the wishes of residents along Loop 610 and Katy Freeway during the highway reconstruction in those natural environments...err...urban areas.

[TheNiche]

I don't think 4,000 square foot homes built on 55 foot wide lots qualifies as "a natural environment". In fact, the complaints and wishes of Woodlands residents to reduce nearby road noise sound distinctly urban, just like the wishes of residents along Loop 610 and Katy Freeway during the highway reconstruction in those natural environments...err...urban areas.

What's your point? Do you have anything of value to add, or are you just going to negatively stereotype a suburban master planned community that is in fact fairly diverse in terms of land use, and that in fact does place its natural elements on a pedestal?

There are plenty of ways to poke fun at The Woodlands--no doubt about that--but this probably isn't the best place for it. And to the extent that this thread may (and probably will) become more fertile ground for the criticisms that you've pre-emptively leveled, your timing is off.

[RedScare]

I believe my post was self-explanatory. And, my fun was not poked at the Woodlands at all, but, rather at Woody's suggestion that the Woodlands is a natural environment. It is not, even if they...as you accurately state...place their natural elements on a pedestal. It is simply a master planned community that attempts to salvage some of the pre-existing foliage, as opposed to clear cutting and adding new foliage back later. At the end of the day, it is still a master planned subdivision whose residents don't want to listen to road noise, just like the residents of Bellaire, Heights or Cinco Ranch.

[ricco67]

I believe my post was self-explanatory. And, my fun was not poked at the Woodlands at all, but, rather at Woody's suggestion that the Woodlands is a natural environment. It is not, even if they...as you accurately state...place their natural elements on a pedestal. It is simply a master planned community that attempts to salvage some of the pre-existing foliage, as opposed to clear cutting and adding new foliage back later. At the end of the day, it is still a master planned subdivision whose residents don't want to listen to road noise, just like the residents of Bellaire, Heights or Cinco Ranch.

Aw man! Can't we just make him THINK he's doing something interesting? I like messing with delusional people.

Like my telling Obama that his economic plan WILL work.

[RedScare]

Aw man! Can't we just make him THINK he's doing something interesting? I like messing with delusional people.

I didn't say that he isn't doing something interesting or helpful. Like I said, even city dwellers like quiet neighborhoods. I merely commented on his choice of the term "natural environment" to describe the Woodlands. That's it. Nothing more. You guys need to quit putting more into my post than is actually there.

[KatieDidIt]

Is this honestly a problem?

Don't people just not buy houses that back to roadways if they can't handle to noise, rather than making the roadway change for them?

[memebag]

I live in a suburb close to 610. I don't think any of my natural elements are on a pedestal. When I was house shopping, I looked at one that was on a busy street and had a lower price. I decided I didn't want to live on a busy street, so I picked a house on a street that gets very little traffic. As a result, I the only road noise I hear is from the trash trucks on the rare occasion that I'm home when they come by. It seems like this aspect of neighborhood design should be easily understood by any potential home buyer.

[woody_hawkeye]

I agree with many of the statements being made. The Woodlands does put the natural environment on a pedestal and is the very reason I and many of my neighbors live here. As a "natural environment" I did not mean it is a natural forest. It has a great deal of concrete and steel but values the natural forest as a host for the community. But you would not necessarily know that it is full of concrete by driving down the parkway. This is a master planned community that did not anticipate such large volumes of traffic nor incorporate plans to block the noise, nor did the residents anticipate such traffic who bought their homes here just 4-5 years ago. Therefore, dealing with the issue will require us to deal with them in context of those values. There are even echoes in a forest. Residents here wanted an earthen berm or sound wall to lower the intensity of the noise, but neither one is considered natural and upsets the master plan for visual connection with the natural amenities here.

[ricco67]

I agree with many of the statements being made. The Woodlands does put the natural environment on a pedestal and is the very reason I and many of my neighbors live here. As a "natural environment" I did not mean it is a natural forest. It has a great deal of concrete and steel but values the natural forest as a host for the community. But you would not necessarily know that it is full of concrete by driving down the parkway. This is a master planned community that did not anticipate such large volumes of traffic nor incorporate plans to block the noise, nor did the residents anticipate such traffic who bought their homes here just 4-5 years ago. Therefore, dealing with the issue will require us to deal with them in context of those values. There are even echoes in a forest. Residents here wanted an earthen berm or sound wall to lower the intensity of the noise, but neither one is considered natural and upsets the master plan for visual connection with the natural amenities here.

You mean that big ol' road (I'm assuming Woodland parkway) wasn't there 4-5 years ago?

Not.

That road was planned for for over a decade. While the SPEED of the growth may not have been anticipated, the development plans were.

Could they have created a bigger buffer between the road and the residences? Quite likely, but I don't think they were anticipating road noise as an issue or didn't want to take a hit on that lost acreage.

[musicman]

This is a master planned community that did not anticipate such large volumes of traffic

sounds like there is a plan but a homeowner didn't understand it. btw how does taking measurements at the road help your cause? do you live next to the road?

[woody_hawkeye]

sounds like there is a plan but a homeowner didn't understand it. btw how does taking measurements at the road help your cause? do you live next to the road?

For myself, I do live near a road - Gosling. It was a dead end road when I moved here. Then they built the bridge to Harris County and now the new village. One of the issues here are the construction-related trucks. The parkway is being expanded to 6 lanes further west, something never anticipated by residents. No one anticipated the volume of traffic being experienced on Gosling. Residents here are dealing with the issue as they can. Measuring will help us to understand the growth of noise in the area as these projects are completed. What will do about it? I do not know at this point. We are experimenting with some remedial efforts. We will take advantage of the water in the pond at Woodlands Parkway and Gosling to generate white noise for nearby residents. That does not accomplish exactly what is desired but it is an acceptable measure for residents. Some homes have had windows rattling with the low frequency waves generated by some trucks and stereo speakers. They may have to replace some windows. Existing trees and brush continue to be added. That will help with some of the higher frequencies. The issue becomes the speed limit, what kind of tires being used, what kind of mufflers being used and the road surface. Changing the road is not necessarily the most critical nor desired remedy. An additional high volume cooridor to parallel the parkway is being planned by changing Lake Woodlands to a 4-lane 45 MPH drive with street lights. That was perceived to be less of a highway and more of a country street. However, it might take traffic away from the parkway and make the parkway a more quiet avenue. So mobility requirements are driving change while homeowners are taking it on the chin. The longer it takes to get an east/west traffic cooridor to the south of The Woodlands, the more the problem will affect noise in The Woodlands. Having comparitive numbers always helps the cause. The reasonable goal I think is a maximum enforcable noise level of 85 db.

[TheNiche]

The reasonable goal I think is a maximum enforcable noise level of 85 db.

Ummm...how do you mean "enforcable"? Do you propose pulling over and ticketing drivers that have the wrong tires? That have the wrong mufflers?

And btw...do you remember all those other things that I suggested Red might have an opportunity to poke fun at later in the thread? You're introducing them. In fact, I'll start by saying that if road noise is causing damage to homes' windows, your homes really suck.

[RedScare]

The parkway is being expanded to 6 lanes further west, something never anticipated by residents. No one anticipated the volume of traffic being experienced on Gosling.

I'm not sure when you moved in, but in 1996, when I lived there, both of these eventualities were expected. Granted, it was not discussed as a "problem", but rather as excited bragging about rapid expansion of the development, but to not anticipate that the only major east-west artery (Research Forest was just getting started) in the Woodlands would not generate traffic noise is not the fault of planners. And, for anyone to think that building the only access from Harris County between I-45 and Kuykendahl (Gosling) would not bring massive traffic with it is blindness.

I can almost sympathize with the road noise complaints, but considering that the entire community is built as winding roads and cul-de-sacs, it forces all traffic onto the half dozen major roads...just the way the people wanted it to be. Now, some have decided that this is a problem. A quick glance at virtually every suburban master planned development of relatively large size will reveal this same plan to funnel all traffic off of residential streets onto main arteries. It allows the residential streets to remain virtually deserted, but makes for a living hell on the arteries. In contrast, a grid system increases traffic on the side streets slightly, but the arteries are much more manageable.

To not anticipate heavy traffic on the main arteries while anticipating massive growth of the neighborhood is willful ignorance.

[KatieDidIt]

How are you going to enforce road noise issues when the place doesn't have sound ordinances nor the ability to enforce any problems with sound? Or the ability to enforce anything while we are at it.

[albertnurick]

Our home backs up to Gosling; our back door faces the street with an approximately 50' greenbelt and approximately 75' of open space.

In general, traffic noise isn't a problem. The greenbelt seems to absorb normal traffic noise. The exceptions:

Occasional loud diesel trucks.

Motorcycles with loud pipes. An epidemic on nice weekend mornings.

I've been a motorcycle rider for 20+ years, and I really wish there would be a crackdown on these asshats who feel that they don't get enough attention on their precious toys, so they have to do the equivalent of putting a playing card in the spokes to get more attention.

[RedScare]

I've been a motorcycle rider for 20+ years, and I really wish there would be a crackdown on these asshats who feel that they don't get enough attention on their precious toys, so they have to do the equivalent of putting a playing card in the spokes to get more attention.

Heh, I'm with you on that one. My neighbor has a $30-40k custom that he just HAS to rev up on weekends. Luckily, he has so many toys (did I mention the 911 turbo?) that the bike only gets trailored (yes, trailored!) to the house every month or so. And, he actually is considerate enough not to do it early or late.

[musicman]

The issue becomes the speed limit, what kind of tires being used, what kind of mufflers being used and the road surface.

unfortunately your approach to resolving the problem is unrealistic. if you don't want noise, you need to buy a tract of isolated land in the woods somewhere.

The reasonable goal I think is a maximum enforcable noise level of 85 db.

lawn mowers and leaf blowers make more than 85 db. does your proposal ban these as well?

[crunchtastic]

lawn mowers and leaf blowers make more than 85 db. does your proposal ban these as well?

I thought the deed restrictions in the Woodlands specify to only use laborers who rake, sweep and bag everything by hand.

[RedScare]

I thought the deed restrictions in the Woodlands specify to only use laborers who rake, sweep and bag everything by hand.

They had to delete that provision after Lou Dobbs said it was enticing them across the border.

[crunchtastic]

They had to delete that provision after Lou Dobbs said it was enticing them across the border.

The border? You mean the beltway? Down here on the east side, you'd swear the yard crews are mowing with a '76 Kawasaki 175 dirtbike missing a muffler.

[woody_hawkeye]

The border? You mean the beltway? Down here on the east side, you'd swear the yard crews are mowing with a '76 Kawasaki 175 dirtbike missing a muffler.

There is a law that can be enforced. It is called public nuisance. 85 db is taken from that law. What is different about a motorcycle with loud pipes and a person on the street yelling at the top of their lungs or a generator running out in the street or a dog barking next door or a mower without a muffler? They all make noise that can disrupt daily lives and sound is defined as a nuisance. It is true that municipalities often make specific laws and traffic is sometimes routed around neighborhoods to reduce the nuisance imposed by some truck traffic. I know this is an ideal goal but it has to start somewhere. Those who are not ambitious to set goals have no desire to fix the problems. There are several issues here that should be addressed with local laws. Right now we do not have the ability to create laws for the community but an effort to acquire that capability is anticipated in the next legislative session.

There are three really bad cases to be addressed at the top of the list - motorcycle with loud pipes (the motorcycle is actually not the problem, it is the driver that is is problem), pickup trucks with loud mufflers, large diesel trucks. Routing would be one method of control. Ticketing another. Regular car traffic is really not the issue. I have acceptable levels of noise emitted from most motorcycles driven in a responsible way, even pickup trucks with loud mufflers when driven responsibly. Big speakers in autos is uncalled for and that can be addressed. Speed ups the volume of road noise, so the speed limits could be rigorously enforced to tame the noise in some areas. What can reasonably be done to counter the human desire to make noise is certainly an issue here. I believe it is the right of every person to have low noise levels no matter where they are in public. It is a similar principal as smoking in public places. Many people just accept noise as necessary, the same way smoking used to be accepted. Noise is not necessary for most situations. It is something imposed by one person on another. Technology supports reduction of noise levels in various ways. We can reduce noise on public roads by 6 db with just a change in surface. That means for traffic moving at about 50 MPH, it would probably seem like traffic moving at 35 (my observation). I do not know how much we could reduce noise with outlawing off-road tires on public pavement, but that does not seem to be a practical goal right off hand. Maybe.

When I gather these data, I note the mix of sound issues on the roads. It is rather amazing to see the free-for-all uncontrolled unnecessary noise that we simply allow to exist out of historical acceptance.

One example of a municipality taking the problem into the legal arena is El Paso. They have an interesting law on their books which is relatively complex to deal with these issues.

[woody_hawkeye]

I am preparing an article on road surface technology plans here. Some of you may be Civil Engineers, so you would know something about this topic. Some significant traffic arteries in The Woodlands have outlived their life expectancy by a decade. Concrete is a noisy surface medium. There is a significant chance that we will see quiet surfaces in the near future as roads are repaired. That would be very welcome news by residents along these thoroughfares.

[woody_hawkeye]

Has anyone been on Rayford Road since Montgomery County resurfaced it? You can actually hear the car's radio without having the volume turned up high. What a pleasant experience and noticable difference in sound. I had not thought about the vehicle passengers and the quality of traveling until I went out there, paying attention to the surface noise. I considered the inside of my truck quiet for the first time in a very long time.