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2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)


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I can only speak for myself, but I certainly wasn't deriding public education. I was pointing out that it is, essentially, a socialist institution. We all pay for it, everyone is entitled to it. I never said it was bad. I didn't pick up on derision in anyone else's post, either, though I may have missed something.

Maybe it was another thread. Sorry if I misquoted.

(BTW, I have been writing a really long paper due tomorrow AND trying to keep up with messages on here. I surely hope I haven't written some socialist wrant in my paper.

LOL)

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Maybe it was another thread. Sorry if I misquoted.

(BTW, I have been writing a really long paper due tomorrow AND trying to keep up with messages on here. I surely hope I haven't written some socialist wrant in my paper.

LOL)

No prob. I'm a little prickly about being termed an elitist, that's all. I'm well-educated but poor, and I always feel like that offers me pretty good immunity from elitist labels.

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Despite my screen name, I love me some public education.

My partner and I love hosting scrabble night. He's and LSU alum. I'm a UH alum. We regularly CRUSH our other couple friends. We especially enjoy beating the living tar out of Silvina and Josh; a power Dartmouth couple. They can't handle losing to Southern public grads and have some serious meltdowns. Good times.

Why is it that people always think bad things when it comes to different forms of socialism?

I am with Red. I tend to think of things like Discovery Green Park, Hermann Park, Lamar High School, Interstate 10, Social Security, NASA, the ship chanel, Hobby and Intercontinental Airports, Robertson Stadium, U of Houston, Texas Southern, the VA Health Center, etc... These are all things that would likely not exist if we were truly a 100% capitalist society.

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How do you feel about public education? Is that a "failed concept of socialism?"

Let me be clear... I'm not advocating for Socialism, nor do I want to change your mind about who you're voting for. (Okay, I would like to, but I realize I can't!). But I find it strange how so many people are crying "Socialist!" about Obama. We accept so many examples of socialized institutions in this country without thinking, but still have this Cold War era notion of commies at the doorway, regarding other forms of government intervention. I think there's a lot of inconsistency, and that's what I'm trying to point out.

yes, the public school system is a failure.

concerning socialism; sweden doesn't exactly suck. whether obama has a socialist agenda or not, i'm not comfortable with his world view. mccain is no brainiac, but i'd rather have his world view in the white house. especially with the congress that we have.

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Don't people in this thread get tired of banging their heads against the wall? You know who agrees with you and who doesn't, the arguments I have read go nowhere. Can we possibly start an "independent" thread to actually discuss issues and avoid people constantly and myopically defending their "team" at the cost of a good discussion? I doubt it. I wish I hadn't read any of the posts in this thread, it has soured my opinion of a lot of HAIFers. For that reason, I'm out of this thread for good now. My own fault for not keeping out from the beginning.

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yes, the public school system is a failure.

concerning socialism; sweden doesn't exactly suck. whether obama has a socialist agenda or not, i'm not comfortable with his world view. mccain is no brainiac, but i'd rather have his world view in the white house. especially with the congress that we have.

So I guess that makes me and the millions of others who went through the public education system failures too?

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yes, the public school system is a failure.

concerning socialism; sweden doesn't exactly suck. whether obama has a socialist agenda or not, i'm not comfortable with his world view. mccain is no brainiac, but i'd rather have his world view in the white house. especially with the congress that we have.

So what should we do? Make it better or scarp it?

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We've always subsidized industry. Now we're just more open about it to the point that it's obvious.

Don't people in this thread get tired of banging their heads against the wall? You know who agrees with you and who doesn't, the arguments I have read go nowhere. Can we possibly start an "independent" thread to actually discuss issues and avoid people constantly and myopically defending their "team" at the cost of a good discussion? I doubt it. I wish I hadn't read any of the posts in this thread, it has soured my opinion of a lot of HAIFers. For that reason, I'm out of this thread for good now. My own fault for not keeping out from the beginning.

I like that idea too.

Edited by N Judah
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Breaking news...

Sarah Palin abused her power as governor in firing head of State Troopers. It appears she is not quite the maverick politician she claims.

In other news, McCain and Palin have whipped their crowds into such a hate-filled frenzy that McCain is forced to defend Obama as a "decent man".

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Breaking news...

Sarah Palin abused her power as governor in firing head of State Troopers. It appears she is not quite the maverick politician she claims.

In other news, McCain and Palin have whipped their crowds into such a hate-filled frenzy that McCain is forced to defend Obama as a "decent man".

Did you see that woman who called Obama an Arab? Unbelievable!

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So what should we do? Make it better or scarp it?

scrap it. check out this interview with camille paglia (not a conservative).

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1285/is_/ai_55084046

i didn't intend to redirect the conversation from the election.

let me reiterate:

mccain - not so good

obama - worse

it's going to be an ugly election year. there are no easy answers, no solid expectations.

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Did you see that woman who called Obama an Arab? Unbelievable!

I didn't find it unbelievable at all. I actually thought it was predictable.

When you feed people with little information a bunch of bad information it will eventually catch up to you.

The Republicans have been running a deplorable campaign over the last week. It was reported that 100% of McCain/Palin ads running right now are negative attack ads. McCain and Palin have not so-subtly been calling Obama a terrorist or at least a terrorist sympathizer. Various people from sheriffs in Florida to the head of the Republican Party in Lehigh County, PA have been introducing Obama with his middle name. Obama has been called a liar. He's been called un-American. He's been called un-Patriotic. He's been called untrustworthy. He's been called someone who lies about foreign relationships. AND, the people calling him these things are people in positions of power that many people trust and respect.

If the tone of this campaign keeps heading in this direction, we are definitely heading towards some hate crimes. That is what happens in America when angry groups get riled up. We are now seeing things like "No Parking Here if You Support Obama" signs in North Carolina, scared old women in Minnesota believing that Obama is a terrorist because she has been led to believe it, and angry mobs yelling out "kill him!" "Treason!" and "Terrorist."

McCain should be ashamed of himself. I sorta give him credit for finally speaking up today but it's about 1 week to late. The damage has been done. People believe so much of the McCain/Palin garbage that they actually booed McCain today when he spoke up half-heartedly for Obama. Of course, the cybic in me also believes that McCain finally spoke up because most of the poll numbers seem to reflect that the attack ads are backfiring. Obama is widening his lead in most places despite the nasty turn of the campaign.

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scrap it. check out this interview with camille paglia (not a conservative).

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1285/is_/ai_55084046

i didn't intend to redirect the conversation from the election.

let me reiterate:

mccain - not so good

obama - worse

it's going to be an ugly election year. there are no easy answers, no solid expectations.

I stopped after reading four pages. Paglia's argument is against schools in general, which is so stupid. The subsequent pages has even worse premises. Are you the kind of man she described in pages 2-4? Have you ever felt like that in high school or at the workplace?

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I didn't find it unbelievable at all. I actually thought it was predictable.

When you feed people with little information a bunch of bad information it will eventually catch up to you.

The Republicans have been running a deplorable campaign over the last week. It was reported that 100% of McCain/Palin ads running right now are negative attack ads. McCain and Palin have not so-subtly been calling Obama a terrorist or at least a terrorist sympathizer. Various people from sheriffs in Florida to the head of the Republican Party in Lehigh County, PA have been introducing Obama with his middle name. Obama has been called a liar. He's been called un-American. He's been called un-Patriotic. He's been called untrustworthy. He's been called someone who lies about foreign relationships. AND, the people calling him these things are people in positions of power that many people trust and respect.

If the tone of this campaign keeps heading in this direction, we are definitely heading towards some hate crimes. That is what happens in America when angry groups get riled up. We are now seeing things like "No Parking Here if You Support Obama" signs in North Carolina, scared old women in Minnesota believing that Obama is a terrorist because she has been led to believe it, and angry mobs yelling out "kill him!" "Treason!" and "Terrorist."

McCain should be ashamed of himself. I sorta give him credit for finally speaking up today but it's about 1 week to late. The damage has been done. People believe so much of the McCain/Palin garbage that they actually booed McCain today when he spoke up half-heartedly for Obama. Of course, the cybic in me also believes that McCain finally spoke up because most of the poll numbers seem to reflect that the attack ads are backfiring. Obama is widening his lead in most places despite the nasty turn of the campaign.

Disturbing. Very disturbing. Political rallies are often intense, but usually in a positive sense and not a negative or hateful one. Some of these rallies look more like an angry lynching mob than a mainstream Presidential campaign rally. Something has stoked serious anger and hatred in these people, and they're directing that anger onto Obama based at least in part on the comments of the McCain campaign. He needs to keep pushing back against these comments, or else he legitimizes them and the lunatics that make them.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/09/m...d_n_133240.html

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Anyone think that if Obama becomes president, there will be quite a few assassination attempts on his life during his term?

I hate to think of any president, regardless of party, being targeted by assassins, but unfortunately that may be the case. We have even had HAIF members make veiled threats about armed rebellion in the event of an Obama victory. America can do better than mob rule.

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Assassination that eat and every person, whether you like Obama or not, needs to hope, pray, or whatever it is you chose to do, that nothing like this ever happens to our country ever again. Those of you not old enough to remember the day they shot Jack Kennedy in Dallas, need to just take my word for it, time stopped for a few days. It was the most strangest time I can remember in my lifetime. The Country nor the Presidency doesn't need to experience that ever again. It's a day I will never forget as long as I live.

Secondly if you think that riot broke out over Rodney King's ordeal, this would be of such magnitude it would be 1968 all over again like the days after the murder of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Worse that that, today's youth are more violent that they were back then, guns are more prevalent on the streets. The world would not be a pretty place, especially the world we live in. I hate to even think of it. the entire month of April in 1968 wasn't pleasant. Every time you turned on the TV for days, this is what you saw in your living room. Those times were harsh realities, of how much things had to change. Every night you either had gruesome news reels out of Vietnam, or all the rioting going on stateside. It was a trying time for everyone. 1968 was filled with violence, First when Dr. King was killed and the riots broke out in many major cities, the first thing goes through your mind is the Watts riots of '65, then Bobby Kennedy was killed and more violence broke out, not to the magnitude of rioting, but still there were heated protesters on TV. Seems like around then Andy Warhol was shot, might have been just before Bobby Kennedy, and then the DNC in Chicago, that was an ugly scene.

We do not for any reason need to get back to that state ever again. I don't care how bad the economy gets, or who gets elected. But to think of another assassination on the President is just something I hate to even consider, though that possibility always remains. I can just pray I never have to witness anything like that ever again.

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I hate to think of any president, regardless of party, being targeted by assassins, but unfortunately that may be the case. We have even had HAIF members make veiled threats about armed rebellion in the event of an Obama victory. America can do better than mob rule.

It was the same story under the Clintons. First, the predictions of doom, then the resentment when he ran circles around them, and it all ended with squabbling over petty things. The 90s was the decade of armed militia compounds, you know. The only domestic threat for Bush II has been a bag of pretzels.

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Well, we can add Republican hockey moms to the long list of people booed at Philadelphia sporting events...

I'm confused. I thought Joe Sixpack was lovin' Ms. Palin long time. Maybe the allure of the hockey mom wears off if you're married to one.

Edited by memebag
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I've come to realize, that I hate both candidates equally now, and I'm not voting this year.

Of course you don't HAVE to vote, and you don't have to like either candidate, so that's fine. But I always wonder, when someone says that's why they're not voting: isn't there SOME minute difference, something that one of them promises to do or not do, that affects you? Whether it's taxes or healthcare or women's rights or gay rights or foreign policy, these guys are miles apart on most issues. If any one of the issues matters to you, there probably is a candidate who would therefore be a better choice.

I guess I mean to ask, not tell. Isn't there a candidate who is a better choice for you, because of at least one issue? I'm genuinely curious, because I am so baffled by undecided voters, and non-voters.

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Of course you don't HAVE to vote, and you don't have to like either candidate, so that's fine. But I always wonder, when someone says that's why they're not voting: isn't there SOME minute difference, something that one of them promises to do or not do, that affects you? Whether it's taxes or healthcare or women's rights or gay rights or foreign policy, these guys are miles apart on most issues. If any one of the issues matters to you, there probably is a candidate who would therefore be a better choice.

I guess I mean to ask, not tell. Isn't there a candidate who is a better choice for you, because of at least one issue? I'm genuinely curious, because I am so baffled by undecided voters, and non-voters.

Exactly. I can understand getting frustrated with certain aspects of the political process (like negative advertisements and dirty smear campaigns). But there are huge differences in the way the major candidates view the issues. I can't fathom how anyone can give up his or her vote in the future of the country, even if the campaign process gets ugly sometimes.

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I can't fathom how anyone can give up his or her vote in the future of the country, even if the campaign process gets ugly sometimes.

If I was a McCain supporter before this election, I'd have a hard time voting for him after picking Palin for VP and all the kowtowing he's done to the Republican party. None of that would make me support Obama, but it could sure turn me off of McCain.

Edited by memebag
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... you have more choices than just "A" or "B" ...

I know but my voice can't be heard in this state, let alone in the whole country.

Well, To be honest, I wish Huckabee was a candidate. I'm just fed up of Palin, and McCain is really old... And I really hate Palin. I'm sure shes a swell gal in person, but as Vice President no way... and Obama? no thanks.

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I have to agree.

Montrose, you aren't picking a candidate because you LIKE them, you're picking them for what they may represent you for topics that's the most important to you.

I don't like McCain OR Obama, but McCain more closely matches what I believe in then Obama.

Just reconsider your decision not to vote, as long as you vote for a candidate that is dealing with the issues that are important to you.

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The Flyers video is pretty funny. I wondered what in the Hell either Palin or the Flyers were thinking with that decision.

Philly is a BLUE city. And, Joe Six Pack can't afford NHL prices.

The Flyers' owner is a big Republican, and has donated to McCain's campaign. He basically ignored that his fans see things differently in bringing Palin to the rink. I understand his thinking this would be a great publicity stunt, but knowing the fans would boo lustily AND knowing it would be splashed all over youtube, you'd think he would've thought better of the idea.

Apparently not.

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If I was a McCain supporter before this election, I'd have a hard time voting for him after picking Palin for VP and all the kowtowing he's done to the Republican party. None of that would make me support Obama, but it could sure turn me off of McCain.

Yep. By giving anything more than lip service to the evangelical right, he has made it very difficult for me to rationalize his actions. But I am also convinced that neither candidate is at all genuine. They can't be. Each campaign has a multitude of Carl Roves interpreting polling and focus group data, figuring out how people respond to each and every miniscule action by the candidate and how to turn the press one way or the other, all toward the end of an electoral college victory. If candidates said what they really wanted to...as I believe that they were around the outset of the primaries (and you've got to admit that both candidates came off very differently then) then both candidates would have exploitable weaknesses.

So I'm going on McCain's record, which is imperfect but generally good, that of a decent guy...we've definitely seen worse Republican candidates that I'd prefer to Obama. Obama doesn't have much of a record in national politics, but his book and his history in local Chicago politics, combined with his practiced charisma and his penchant for dodging hard questions in interviews, is frightening enough to me that I just can't vote for the guy.

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So I'm going on McCain's record, which is imperfect but generally good, that of a decent guy...we've definitely seen worse Republican candidates that I'd prefer to Obama. Obama doesn't have much of a record in national politics, but his book and his history in local Chicago politics, combined with his practiced charisma and his penchant for dodging hard questions in interviews, is frightening enough to me that I just can't vote for the guy.

I'm also going by experience as well. If Obama held office a few more years, or perhaps even held LOCAL office for a significant amount of time, you can get a good grasp of what the man believes in. As it is, McCain has experience and a proven track record, but like you said, it's imperfect, but it IS a record we can look back on and see what he may do in the future.

In fact, the past may not be well represented as to how he will be in the future.

Now one important tidbit; Remember, G.W. only held office in Texas as a for a term and a half (6 years) as his only experience in politics before winning the presidency and look how THAT turned out.

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Lincoln had one term in the US House of Representatives before he became the president. Buchanan was a Senator, Secretary of State, a diplomat, a member of the House, etc. There is no doubt which one was a better leader, though.

You're speaking as if Bush's experience had anything to do with his awful presidency - that it wasn't his character which included absolute moral certainty. Obama is a pragmatist, which is quite the opposite. McCain's camp has a lot in common with the current president in this regard. Palin? Definitely. McCain? Seemingly.

Edited by westguy
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No one booed this woman when she attended Flyers' games...

A REAL patriotic woman.

I know but my voice can't be heard in this state, let alone in the whole country.

Well, To be honest, I wish Huckabee was a candidate. I'm just fed up of Palin, and McCain is really old... And I really hate Palin. I'm sure shes a swell gal in person, but as Vice President no way... and Obama? no thanks.

...you hate Palin... but would want to see Huckabee instead? You must be a fun person to date.

Edited by BryanS
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I know but my voice can't be heard in this state, let alone in the whole country.

Well, To be honest, I wish Huckabee was a candidate. I'm just fed up of Palin, and McCain is really old... And I really hate Palin. I'm sure shes a swell gal in person, but as Vice President no way... and Obama? no thanks.

The funny thing about Mike Huckabee is that he seems very reasonable and likable in the interviews I've seen. He can be very amusing and self-deprecating. But from what I've read regarding his policy ideas, I think there's some craziness underneath that charming persona. But I guess that's besides the point since he's out of the race.

I'm glad you agree that Palin is unfit to serve the highest office. But at least consider a third party candidate to voice your disapproval. It won't count in the race, but if enough people vote their conscious, it might send a message to future candidates.

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Is anyone else wondering about the bad judgement of bringing your daughters, including the 7 year old, to Philadelphia to drop the puck at a Flyers game? I actually feel bad for the girls, especially the young one. She can't possibly grasp why people do not like her mother. Additionally, shouldn't they be in school? They are everywhere with her and it's not like it's an easy trip back home after a long weekend.

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Is anyone else wondering about the bad judgement of bringing your daughters, including the 7 year old, to Philadelphia to drop the puck at a Flyers game? I actually feel bad for the girls, especially the young one. She can't possibly grasp why people do not like her mother. Additionally, shouldn't they be in school? They are everywhere with her and it's not like it's an easy trip back home after a long weekend.

If I were going to talk about her judgement in these matters, which I try not to since I really do try not to judge other mothers, I would wonder why:

1. she drags a 4-month old baby out late at night to be pranced around after speeches

2. she enters a race like this, knowing her teen daughter is pregnant, and knowing she will reveal this to the media, and knowing the embarrassment her daughter will face as a result

3. talks about her baby's health condition and how she will advocate for children's health, but when the issue of children's health is then taken up by her opponents, she accuses them of cheaply taking advantage of her children

4. after exposing her family to national audiences, issuing press releases about them, and talking about their personal issues in her speeches, she asks the media to respect their privacy, then cries foul when that wish is not 100% complied with.

She is the one exposing her children to all of this, not the media, not anyone else. And as a mother, I can't help but to wonder how on earth she could do this to them, especially to the pregnant daughter and the little baby.

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Lincoln had one term in the US House of Representatives before he became the president. Buchanan was a Senator, Secretary of State, a diplomat, a member of the House, etc. There is no doubt which one was a better leader, though.

You're speaking as if Bush's experience had anything to do with his awful presidency - that it wasn't his character which included absolute moral certainty. Obama is a pragmatist, which is quite the opposite. McCain's camp has a lot in common with the current president in this regard. Palin? Definitely. McCain? Seemingly.

Lincoln and Bush have a lot of parallels. Both of them violated habeus corpus. Both of them have presided over civil wars. Both of them were widely reviled by citizens but redeemed for their war policy in close but successful re-election campaigns. Both of them were well-spoken (and yes, if you watch the old election footage, Bush is actually pretty well-spoken, even if he does come across as a frat boy). ...and neither actually had very much meaningful national experience.

Never mind the policy; I see more parallels in terms of biography, experience, personality, and persona between Lincoln and Bush2 and even between Bush2 and Obama, in some ways, than I could even start to make between Bush2 and McCain. And I think that Biden was an excellent Veep selection for the much the same reason that I think that McCain is preferable to Obama generally (that is, before policy analysis).

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The Flyers' owner is a big Republican, and has donated to McCain's campaign. He basically ignored that his fans see things differently in bringing Palin to the rink. I understand his thinking this would be a great publicity stunt, but knowing the fans would boo lustily AND knowing it would be splashed all over youtube, you'd think he would've thought better of the idea.

Apparently not.

Perhaps they were protesting with boos over the politicization of a publicly funded venue?

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The funny thing about Mike Huckabee is that he seems very reasonable and likable in the interviews I've seen. He can be very amusing and self-deprecating. But from what I've read regarding his policy ideas, I think there's some craziness underneath that charming persona. But I guess that's besides the point since he's out of the race.

I'm glad you agree that Palin is unfit to serve the highest office. But at least consider a third party candidate to voice your disapproval. It won't count in the race, but if enough people vote their conscious, it might send a message to future candidates.

Sounds just like me. He's for gay rights, and that really appealed to me... (Well so did Hillary Clinton, but I think I would move overseas if she became president). I'm just fed up of people telling me their parents sent them to a "Mercy House" or a therapist or psyc. ward because their parents found out their gay... Like its a mental disease. And that makes me sick.

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