2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[crunchtastic]

But her comments were mocking and snide. She actually made a mocking joke out of Habeas corpus... as though principles like a right to a fair trial are a joke, instead of something Americans should be proud of. .

Oh, I caught that too. I was frankly sickened at the loud roars that went up in the crowd after that line. It's one thing to debate the merits of whether an accused foreigner is subject to habeas corpus, it's quite another to make a 'funny' blanket statement deriding one of the cornerstones of the Constitution. The snide and mocking tone was offensive to me as well. The whole speech seemed to me more appropriate as a bit on The Daily Show, rather than a speech where she demonstrates her vice-presidentialness.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Except for the inconvenient fact that McCain has used her jet for political-related business.

McCain Frequently Used His Wife's Jet for Political Activities

The senator was able to fly so inexpensively because the law specifically exempts aircraft owned by a candidate or his family or by a privately held company they control. The Federal Election Commission adopted rules in December to close the loophole

[CSOM]

Jumping in late to this thread, but still wanted to add my 2 cents...

My poisition on this whole thing is this: I am sick of the electoral system in use here in the US. Now that being said, let me explain my reasoning.

What I am seeing more and more is that none of this is about what is right for the country, but preserving this self-serving 2 party system which seems to me to be pretty outdated. In a world as large and complex as ours, there are almost always more than 2 ways to go, but we don't get that choice. These conventions are nothing more than a waste of money as they are simply giant pep-rally's that are preaching to the choir. There was no more substance in Joe Biden's speach than Sarah Palin's speach. There is no real discussion about the issues, hardly even a position.

My opinion is that we should cut this down to it's basic format. Who is the most appropriate person to be in this poisition? I want to hear a candidate once really tell me why I should vote for them, not why I shouldn't vote for the other candidate. All too often it comes down to buzzwords that will rile up the people to think and believe all the same way. Changing one's mind is considered weak and has to be avoided... apparently we need to come to concrete decisions at birth and we can never change our minds after reasearch and further growth and examination as a person.

If I were running, I would throw out all the buzzwords, right up front, and then never use them again. You know the list. Abortion. Gun Control. Religion. Death Penalty. etc. In what appears to me, 95% of the country is on one side or the other on issues like this, and rarely if ever, do they change their minds. People vote based on these issues ("Palin's pro-life, I'm voting for her") when in reality these are minor problems in our world that will not be addressed by a President anyway.

I would advocate stripping down the polish on these things and I would challenge the opposing candidate(s) to a real debate. Travel the country, meet in arenas, churches, synogauges, mosques, schools, parks, work places, VFW halls, Union halls, etc. and have a real debate, on real questions, not those scripted by NBC and provided to the candidate 2 days in advance so their speach writer can tell them their response.

There needs to be real discussion on the issues, not just positioning based on rhetoric. No one individual knows the perfect plan to deal with Social Security, Health Care, Foreign Policy, Tax Policy, Education, Poverty, Infrastructure, and the myriad of other issues that are really central to what our government should be for. But we want our candidate to know how to "solve" all of these issues and have the right answer during their campaign, before they even get into the job. Heck, what I'm more interested in, is who their cabinet would be. Who would they appoint? Tell me that and I'll tell you if I'll vote for them.

The candidates who want to talk about real issues, in real time, and have real opinions (people like Ron Paul or the late Paul Wellstone) are often discarded by most people as wacko's or nutjobs, and would never get a chance to promote real change, because they are dangerous to the party's that support them.

So after all that, where does that leave me? I know this much - I've voted Republican historically but I really still don't know who I will vote for, and I'm not sure it's either of these candidates yet. So, vote CSOM in 2012 or 2016 or 2020, or whenever I get around to running for office.

[wernicke]

WHAT IS YOUR POINT???????????????????????? Stop the madness!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take a deep breath. Exhale. Everything is going to be OK.

First, I don't think you read the article.

The point is that after backing legislation last year requiring presidential candidates to pay the actual cost of flying on corporate jets, McCain started using his wife's jet without paying the actual cost of flying on corporate jets.

Which is just another indication of how McCain is willing to change his principles to fit his ambitions.

Seems like a salient point to me.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Take a deep breath. Exhale. Everything is going to be OK.

First, I don't think you read the article.

The point is that after backing legislation last year requiring presidential candidates to pay the actual cost of flying on corporate jets, McCain started using his wife's jet without paying the actual cost of flying on corporate jets.

Which is just another indication of how McCain is willing to change his principles to fit his ambitions.

Seems like a salient point to me.

Okay so now your focus is on the rate McCain paid for legally flying in a corporate jet, not that Palin sold the State jet in Alaska.

I am thinking A.D.D. is a real issue here.

I read the article completely, I see where it says he backed the legislation, however the legislation fell through, and isn't in effect. I also see where it says he followed the letter of the law as it currently reads. Should he have done something differently? When you don't follow the letter of the law, you are breaking the law, so which is it you are claiming he should have done. Break the law or follow the law? The NY Times, said their selves they cannot be completely accurate with their numbers, because they have no way of knowing which was a dead head and which was not. But the numbers look pretty close to what he paid the Hensley Group or King Air rather, which is of course is under the corporate umbrella of the Hensley group. So once again what's your point.

The fact that he followed the law, how does that "change his principals"?

[wernicke]

The fact that he followed the law, how does that "change his principals"?

I am obviously being nit-picky here, but...

I never said he broke the law. I said he supported legislation in congress (that is pending approval secondary to staffing issues at the FEC) that would have made his own actions a few months later illegal...

Palin sold the Alaskan government jet and endorsed flying on domestic airlines like regular people.

Again, I think it is a salient point.

[KinkaidAlum]

I agree. She did really well. She's a little scary to me; she looks all cute and appealing, and appears to be talking about nice things like small towns and families. But her comments were mocking and snide. She actually made a mocking joke out of Habeas corpus... as though principles like a right to a fair trial are a joke, instead of something Americans should be proud of. She also mocked Obama's interest in diplomacy, which makes me think she's as ready to go to war as GWB. She even criticized Obama for not using the word "victory" in reference to our current wars. Could that be because we haven't won? I feel like she's trying to stir-up the "nuke all those towel-heads" kind of sentiment. In those kinds of remarks, she is appealing to people's basest impulses with cheap humor. To me, that kind of tawdry patriotism is a strong contrast to the Dem message that Americans are more than that, and are a great people with a capacity for doing good in our country and in the world.

She actually made me feel a little sick to my stomach.

I know plenty of you will chew me up for that kind of idealism, but that's my response. I'm not trying to convince you.

SPOT ON. That is exactly how I felt.

Quite frankly, she came across as a mean girl.

The only thing you left out were all of the Biblical references geared towards turning on the base of the Party. Especially offensive was her Moses-jab at Obama when she said "what does he seek to accomplish after he's done turning back the waters..."

Is that really called for?

I also find it laughable that the Party of the Swift Boat is now apparently only about military service. The one big difference between McCain and Kerry? Kerry didn't get CAUGHT.

[Jeebus]

Quite frankly, she came across as a mean girl.

As opposed to what? A softly-spoken woman who let the press beat her up for the last week? She came out swinging - and by the context of the posts today, she connected.

[TJones]

I also find it laughable that the Party of the Swift Boat is now apparently only about military service. The one big difference between McCain and Kerry? Kerry didn't get CAUGHT.

Maybe Kerry would have been if he wouldn't have requested to leave Vietnam 8 months prior to his tour being over, so he could go run for congress.

[lockmat]

Quite frankly, she came across as a mean girl.

Even CNN is saying different things. Their entire cast last night after the speech was pretty impressed.

I'm interested to know what the moderates think. She came out swinging but she also made some points for people to think about regarding Obama.

[TJones]

Even CNN is saying different things. Their entire cast last night after the speech was pretty impressed.

I'm interested to know what the moderates think. She came out swinging but she also made some points for people to think about regarding Obama.

Moderates think we still don't like her. Still too rightwing for comfort.

[lockmat]

Moderates think we still don't like her. Still too rightwing for comfort.

Not from the videos I've seen from Reuters and other places.

Where are the rest of the HAIF moderates????? We've got a few in here but there's tons more voices. Join in on the conversation!

There's not nearly enough people discussing in this thread.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Quite frankly, she came across as a mean girl.

Mean girl? ROTFLMAO

Come after my family the way hers has been done, and I will make you wish your mother had chosen the Roe vs. Wade route. I am as easy going a person as you'll meet, until my family is crossed. Then the dancing bear becomes a rabid Grizzly.

Not from the videos I've seen from Reuters and other places.

Where are the rest of the HAIF moderates????? We've got a few in here but there's tons more voices. Join in on the conversation!

There's not nearly enough people discussing in this thread.

To be very honest, most people are tired of the whole thing. They'll make their own mind up, and vote come November. They're just tired of the same old bipartisan rhetoric.

[sarahiki]

Mean girl? ROTFLMAO

Come after my family the way hers has been done, and I will make you wish your mother had chosen the Roe vs. Wade route. I am as easy going a person as you'll meet, until my family is crossed. Then the dancing bear becomes a rabid Grizzly.

To be very honest, most people are tired of the whole thing. They'll make their own mind up, and vote come November. They're just tired of the same old bipartisan rhetoric.

If she wanted her family out of the public eye, especially given that she has an underage pregnant daughter, she shouldn't have gotten into this.

[moni]

If she wanted her family out of the public eye, especially given that she has an underage pregnant daughter, she shouldn't have gotten into this.

I really can't stand that woman. I dislike self-rightous right wing religious nuts, it is as simple as that.

[musicman]

If she wanted her family out of the public eye, especially given that she has an underage pregnant daughter, she shouldn't have gotten into this.

from her speech yesterday, seems she's a lot tougher than that.

[lockmat]

To be very honest, most people are tired of the whole thing. They'll make their own mind up, and vote come November. They're just tired of the same old bipartisan rhetoric.

Me too. The first debate is at the end of this month I believe.

[barracuda]

I agree. She did really well. She's a little scary to me; she looks all cute and appealing, and appears to be talking about nice things like small towns and families. But her comments were mocking and snide. She actually made a mocking joke out of Habeas corpus... as though principles like a right to a fair trial are a joke, instead of something Americans should be proud of. She also mocked Obama's interest in diplomacy, which makes me think she's as ready to go to war as GWB. She even criticized Obama for not using the word "victory" in reference to our current wars. Could that be because we haven't won? I feel like she's trying to stir-up the "nuke all those towel-heads" kind of sentiment. In those kinds of remarks, she is appealing to people's basest impulses with cheap humor. To me, that kind of tawdry patriotism is a strong contrast to the Dem message that Americans are more than that, and are a great people with a capacity for doing good in our country and in the world.

She actually made me feel a little sick to my stomach.

I know plenty of you will chew me up for that kind of idealism, but that's my response. I'm not trying to convince you.

I couldn't agree more. Her speech was a bunch of simple one line jokes, distortions, and attacks on Obama and his policy ideas. What are her ideas about improving the economy? How would she actually defend our country? How does she see her role as Vice President?

She didn't answer any of these questions. All we know from this speech is that she can read and deliver the words that were spelled out on the multiple teleprompters in front of her.

[Mark F. Barnes]

If she wanted her family out of the public eye, especially given that she has an underage pregnant daughter, she shouldn't have gotten into this.

Never said she wanted her family out of the public eye, but I'll bet you if YOU come after the cubs, she'll give you a wake up call. I know I would.

I was laughing at the whole "mean girl" statement, make of it what you will, if it makes you feel better about yourself and your discontent of the person, or myself if it should be the case. I personally could care less either way how you felt about me or her. That's your right to do so, I may or may not agree with it, but it's still your right none the less.

[lockmat]

I couldn't agree more. Her speech was a bunch of simple one line jokes, distortions, and attacks on Obama and his policy ideas. What are her ideas about improving the economy? How would she actually defend our country? How does she see her role as Vice President?

She didn't answer any of these questions. All we know from this speech is that she can read and deliver the words that were spelled out on the multiple teleprompters in front of her.

The tv commentators were saying before the speech last night that that's all VP candidates do at convention speeches. They're just a cheerleader for the Presidential nominee.

[barracuda]

Mean girl? ROTFLMAO

Come after my family the way hers has been done, and I will make you wish your mother had chosen the Roe vs. Wade route. I am as easy going a person as you'll meet, until my family is crossed. Then the dancing bear becomes a rabid Grizzly.

She compares herself to a pitbull with lipstick and spent most of her speech viciously attacking Obama. Sounds to me like she's asking to be attacked from all angles. If she can't stand the heat...

[ricco67]

Where are the rest of the HAIF moderates????? We've got a few in here but there's tons more voices. Join in on the conversation!

There's not nearly enough people discussing in this thread.

We're here, but I am on Red's side. There is too much bickering about half truths, petty insults, and illogical arguments to be worth posting on here. Not to mention avalanche of posts take place on here on an HOURLY basis makes it close to impossible to put something on that is relevant without throwing off everyone else's posts.

If she wanted her family out of the public eye, especially given that she has an underage pregnant daughter, she shouldn't have gotten into this.

To an extent, I agree with that, but Obama also wanted his kids out of the spotlight (granted, after he decided to grant an interview) and conceded that Palin's kids needs to be left out of the debate, which I respect.

Me too. The first debate is at the end of this month I believe.

The debate will show what she's made of and how quick she is on her feet.

I couldn't agree more. Her speech was a bunch of simple one line jokes, distortions, and attacks on Obama and his policy ideas. What are her ideas about improving the economy? How would she actually defend our country? How does she see her role as Vice President?

She didn't answer any of these questions. All we know from this speech is that she can read and deliver the words that were spelled out on the multiple teleprompters in front of her.

Isn't the VP's job during the campaign is to take jabs on the otherside to begin with? Biden did the same thing during the DNC, why not mention that?

[barracuda]

John Stewart does an incredible job dispelling the ridiculous claim that the media has been unfairly tough on Palin's family:

http://ccinsider.comedycentral.com/cc_insi...tewart-ann.html

[houstonmacbro]

I'd like to know the criteria for being "ready" to be Commander in Chief? I'd also like to know why Obama is lambasted for not meeting this mysterious criteria but somehow Sarah Palin is a smart choice despite having less "experience" than Barack Obama. The GOP argument is that Palin is the VP candidate, but in all reality, McCain will most likely become incapacitated while in office leaving this "hockey mom" in charge of the world's most powerful nation when her resume includes running a town of less than 5,000 and a state with a population less than that of many major cities.

Plus, she is a far right winger on policy and social issues but her daugher is pregnant at 17 and not married. That shows that she has little control over family affairs; how can I expect this woman to run a country of hundreds of millions when she can't even run a family of seven? She's a hypocrite in the same vein of many other politicians. "Do as I say, not as my teenage daughter does." She's under investigation for corruption charges stemming from her time as mayor of what equates to a small Houston suburb and as governor. Well, that's okay because Barack Obama has a "terrist" sounding name and was a community organizer/activist.

There's a litany of things wrong with Palin, but for some reason the AP ran a headline saying "A Star is Born." How? Why? When? These are the type of issues in any sane country that would have sank McCain's battleship, but in good old America we're ready to elect a man with a history of illnesses whose poor judgment led to one of the worst VP choices in recent memory because Barack Obama is somehow "not ready," and only speaks of hope and change instead of the real issues. Well, where does McCain stand on the issues? I hear more about his POW stint than anything on how he might run this country except a vague impression it'd be similar to what we have going on now but with a "babe" to take over in case he croaks. Wonderful.

You've pretty much summed up everything I have been thinking. And feeling.

I say, if you want more of the same, vote more of the same. If not, the choice is clear.

[crunchtastic]

She compares herself to a pitbull with lipstick and spent most of her speech viciously attacking Obama. Sounds to me like she's asking to be attacked from all angles. If she can't stand the heat...

She strikes me as one of those women who confuses being a tough delicate flower with having authentic power or leadership.

I also think she realizes she's playing to a bunch of old white men who want to give her a spanking for being a mouthy girl, but I wonder if she realizes the extent to which she's getting played. The men in charge of her political future don't think for a second she's capable of real leadership, nor do they care. She's a means to an end. And what a cynical move at that. Is it possible that the McCain handlers have beaten Karl Rove at his own game?

[houstonmacbro]

the Dem message that Americans are more than that, and are a great people with a capacity for doing good in our country and in the world.

We have the capacity, but not the will any more. I am not sure what this country is becoming, but it doesn't seem like there is a lot of goodwill towards one another any more.

Folks would just as well cut you down than help you.

[houstonmacbro]

Not from the videos I've seen from Reuters and other places.

Where are the rest of the HAIF moderates????? We've got a few in here but there's tons more voices. Join in on the conversation!

There's not nearly enough people discussing in this thread.

I am a progressive and I do not vote along party lines, although (for the sake of disclosure) I do lean to the democratic party. But I am just not feeling McCain or Palin.

Sorry.

[barracuda]

She strikes me as one of those women who confuses being a tough delicate flower with having authentic power or leadership.

I also think she realizes she's playing to a bunch of old white men who want to give her a spanking for being a mouthy girl, but I wonder if she realizes the extent to which she's getting played. The men in charge of her political future don't think for a second she's capable of real leadership, nor do they care. She's a means to an end. And what a cynical move at that. Is it possible that the McCain handlers have beaten Karl Rove at his own game?

Yes. McCain's own campaign manager said this campaign is about "personality" and not issues. Palin is just another tool they are using to try and win the election. They fully know she has no business being the VP, but they are indeed taking a page from the Karl Rove playbook and doing anything to win, regardless of how much it may damage the country.

That's the really sad irony to me. I really don't think today's Republican party leaders care about the country as long as they can win an election. Bush and Cheney and their surrogates have proved that point clearly IMO. They really don't even seem interested in running the country, They only want to win elections so they can ban abortions, keep gays from getting married, and keep the American people in a constant state of fear from "evil-doers".

I feel that I have to constantly investigate beyond the talking points to discover the lies and distortions they really are. And sure, both parties are guilty, but the Republicans have a far greater lie and manipulation machine than the Democrats. My fear is that most people take the party line as gospel, even after 8 years of near complete failure.

[BryanS]

What I find interesting is that the election is not McCain v. Obama and Palin v. Biden.

Now, especially after last night's speech, it's McCain v. Obama and Palin v. Obama. Biden has been marginalized into a non-factor and the Republicans are now going two-on-one against Obama since now even the GOP's veep candidate has more experience than the Dems presidential candidate.

I'm not saying one way is better than the other because I'm still a swing vote, but I think it's an interesting strategy.

I'd mostly lost interest in the election until Palin jumped into the ring. I think now it's going to be more interesting.

Wait until the Biden v. Palin debate. We'll see who ends up being more marginalized after that one.

Question to the candidates: "What are your views on abortion? Are there any circumstances where it should be permitted? Or not?"

Palin: "Never. Not even for rape or incest."

Can't wait to see her disclose that little tid bit during the debate...

The tv commentators were saying before the speech last night that that's all VP candidates do at convention speeches. They're just a cheerleader for the Presidential nominee.

...and as everyone should know by now... her speech was written by the Bush speech writers. Basically, what you heard last night was Bush.

[lockmat]

...and as everyone should know by now... her speech was written by the Bush speech writers. Basically, what you heard last night was Bush.

Yes, everyone knows. A CNN commentator brought that up and then they collectively agreed that is part of the reason she gave a slap in the face to the media in her speech, b/c they admitted that they didn't say the same thing about the speeches by the democrats. And don't act like the dems aren't using the same rhetoric and have the same positions as before. It's not change. It's change from Bush, but not change from dem views. They're saying the same stuff they did four years ago too.