2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[memebag]

So you're saying corporations and the rich should pay the most.

No. As I've been saying all day, corporate taxes are useless, wasteful hand-waving. The rich should pay higher tax rates than the poor.

[RedScare]

No. As I've been saying all day, corporate taxes are useless, wasteful hand-waving. The rich should pay higher tax rates than the poor.

Since the rich, by extension, own the largest percentage of corporations, the taxes not paid by corporations would be paid by the rich, so the argument could be made that there is no need to tax the corporations. Not saying I agree, but the argument is there.

A bigger mystery to me, is what low or no capital gains taxes provide. They appear only to benefit trading houses, as mentioned earlier. Encouraging rampant buying and selling unsettles the markets, most Americans own stocks in retirement funds unaffected by the tax, rapid buying and selling is traditionally the worst way to accumulate wealth, and there is no rational reason that passive income should be treated any differently than income that is produced by work. Capital gains should be taxed at the very same rates as wages.

Frankly, the best way to simplify the tax code is to get rid of all the exemptions and tax breaks. Logically, this should include homestead exemptions, though I know that is considered blasphemy. But, many of these exemptions distort rational investment, encouraging huge mortgages when a paid off home provides a safer shelter from economic downturns. Charitable giving would take an initial hit, but soon return to acceptable levels, as 65% of a charitable gift is still a gift.

[barracuda]

I agree with that. They make the most.

I agree to. Whether it's a flat or progressive tax (both a percent of income or profits), the rich will pay more. But I still think corporations should shoulder some of the income tax burden to pay back for the government that allows them to exist and succeed.

[Mark F. Barnes]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CNN Breaking News.....Palin's Husband got a DUI 22 years ago................ I'm floored by the terror.

What a bunch of crap, they are really reaching now.

[barracuda]

Frankly, the best way to simplify the tax code is to get rid of all the exemptions and tax breaks. Logically, this should include homestead exemptions, though I know that is considered blasphemy. But, many of these exemptions distort rational investment, encouraging huge mortgages when a paid off home provides a safer shelter from economic downturns. Charitable giving would take an initial hit, but soon return to acceptable levels, as 65% of a charitable gift is still a gift.

I agree. What bothers me more than anything is all the loopholes and exemptions, which the wealthy and corporate taxpayers seem able to take advantage of the most.

[houstonmacbro]

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CNN Breaking News.....Palin's Husband got a DUI 22 years ago................ I'm floored by the terror.

What a bunch of crap, they are really reaching now.

Hey Mark, I agree. Regardless of political parties, I think stuff that someone's family member does, especially this long ago, is irrelevant.

[memebag]

A bigger mystery to me, is what low or no capital gains taxes provide. They appear only to benefit trading houses, as mentioned earlier. Encouraging rampant buying and selling unsettles the markets, most Americans own stocks in retirement funds unaffected by the tax, rapid buying and selling is traditionally the worst way to accumulate wealth, and there is no rational reason that passive income should be treated any differently than income that is produced by work. Capital gains should be taxed at the very same rates as wages.

Agree, unless you want to encourage investment. Taxes are, at their most basic, a system of rewards and punishments.

Frankly, the best way to simplify the tax code is to get rid of all the exemptions and tax breaks. Logically, this should include homestead exemptions, though I know that is considered blasphemy. But, many of these exemptions distort rational investment, encouraging huge mortgages when a paid off home provides a safer shelter from economic downturns. Charitable giving would take an initial hit, but soon return to acceptable levels, as 65% of a charitable gift is still a gift.

Again, it depends on what you want to reward and what you want to punish. Homestead exemptions make sense if you want to encourage home ownership. But there's no sound argument for a tax code as complicated as ours.

But I still think corporations should shoulder some of the income tax burden to pay back for the government that allows them to exist and succeed.

Corporations have no shoulders. People have shoulders. Corporations aren't people.

[TJones]

Your favorite ex-prez said it best "is anyone really ready to be president?".

Reagan said that ? Never heard that speech, was he referring to Clinton or Dukhakis ?

Agree, unless you want to encourage investment. Taxes are, at their most basic, a system of rewards and punishments.

Again, it depends on what you want to reward and what you want to punish. Homestead exemptions make sense if you want to encourage home ownership. But there's no sound argument for a tax code as complicated as ours.

Corporations have no shoulders. People have shoulders. Corporations aren't people.

Corporations aren't people, but their shareholders, who the corporations depend on are people, and those people have shoulders. These people with shoulders depend on BIG profits. Just ask Red, he has shoulders, and he has tons of Exxon stock and like most shareholding people, he likes to get that big profit check every quarter.

BTW, why are you people so AFRAID of the "fair tax" plan.

[barracuda]

Corporations have no shoulders. People have shoulders. Corporations aren't people.

Okay, I get that point. But they are legal entities that have legal rights and responsibilities much like people, and they depend on the government to survive, and they make profits that can and are taxed by said government. Looks like we just disagree on whether they should pay taxes.

[RedScare]

McCain campaign tells media to lay off Palin's background.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26527513/

Fat chance. I had to suffer through blowhard Fred Thompson's insufferable speech about John McCain's "background" of being a POW. The campaign is really saying that only background that helps them is on the table. Sorry, it don't work that way. Palin's background...more accurately, her lack of same...is fair game. A campaign that attacks Obama's patriotism for not wearing a flag lapel pin must undergo scrutiny for selecting a VP candidate who supported secession from the United States. A candidate who advocates making ALL abortions illegal, and who advocates teaching abstinance only is subject to scrutiny when that stance produces predictable consequences in her own home. A campaign who's entire foundation is based on war, terror and the scary world outside our borders is entitled to scrutiny when it chooses a candidate that just got her passport last year. A campaign that crucified Obama for his pastor's remarks cannot complain of its OWN CANDIDATE'S remarks in her church.

A campaign that did not vet its candidate cannot complain that the media is now doing it for them. A party that funded the swift boaters 4 years ago is in a precarious position to be complaining today.

EDIT: Oh, the DWI will be given all the credit it deserves. None.

BTW, why are you people so AFRAID of the "fair tax" plan.

Because it is not "fair".

It is a terrible plan. I won't go into all the why's, since it is not in play, but it is terrible.

Just ask Red, he has shoulders, and he has tons of Exxon stock and like most shareholding people, he likes to get that big profit check every quarter.

Right, and I do not sell it, and all of it is in a retirement account, where it is not subject to tax.

[barracuda]

Speaking of Palin's background...

http://www.alternet.org/election08/97350/?page=entire

[TJones]

Right, and I do not sell it, and all of it is in a retirement account, where it is not subject to tax.

Well of course because you are very very smart. However, if your corporations gets a big kick in the pants, I.E. Obama's Tax hike, your profitsharing goes way down, doesn't it, and that will put a kink in your retirement plans.

I agree on Palin's background being "fair game", Obama's background was "fair game", so tit for tat.

[crunchtastic]

Agree, unless you want to encourage investment. Taxes are, at their most basic, a system of rewards and punishments.

Don't confuse investment with trading. Low/no capital gains taxes are a profit making tool of the banks via trading. They apply to selling, not buying. In its strictest sense, investment is buying and owning, which is not punished at all by capital gains taxes. In fact, buying and owning is rewarded with compounding.

[houstonmacbro]

Okay, I am not one to derail a party, but don't you think that after 1,180 replies, this topic is toast?

[crunchtastic]

BTW, why are you people so AFRAID of the "fair tax" plan.

I'm not afraid of a fair tax plan at all! A fair tax plan is one where those who use and benefit from the services more pay more for them. Red did a great job of explaining it.

[crunchtastic]

Well of course because you are very very smart. However, if your corporations gets a big kick in the pants, I.E. Obama's Tax hike, your profitsharing goes way down, doesn't it, and that will put a kink in your retirement plans.

/quote]

actually no, not necessarily. Many times the stock may suffer but they'll release more cash in the form of dividends, and that is compounded as well in a qualified plan. (I don't recall if Exxon pays div)

And anyways, profitsharing plans are not the same thing as a 401k or IRA. Subject to different IRS rules.

[20thStDad]

I had to suffer through blowhard Fred Thompson's insufferable speech about John McCain's "background" of being a POW.

You had to? That really sucks. I changed the channel to check baseball scores.

The conventions annoy me. Gatherings of too many long-winded like-minded people of any variety are scary to me. I keep thinking they might start chanting and bust out the kool-aid. Hmmm...that might work...

[crunchtastic]

McCain was a POW???? Serious??

OK, I can't help myself. For starters, did anyone see the token black man in the audience for Ms Palin's speech? [Hint, famous football player who ran unsuccessfully for a governorship.]

Not a single bleat about issues. And her attempt at Obama jabs sounded like she was more interested in getting to the punchline than anything else. I think her talents would be better utilized doing something like ........fundraising.

And, in the 30 seconds she spent on her own political career, there was this little matter of her taking credit for something that is required by state charter, ie. oil an gas lease revenues returned to the state budget, and budget surplus kicked back to residents each fiscal year.

I actually watched Guiliani too. Not one mention yet of policy. All those old white people at the convention are getting off on Obama jokes; I hope they get some meat in McCain's speech tomorrow night, because it hasn't showed up yet.

[sarahiki]

McCain was a POW???? Serious??

OK, I can't help myself. For starters, did anyone see the token black man in the audience for Ms Palin's speech?

Not a single bleat about issues. And her attempt at Obama jabs sounded like she was more interested in getting to the punchline than anything else. I think her talents would be better utilized doing something like ........fundraising.

And, in the 30 seconds she spent on her own political career, there was this little matter of her taking credit for something that is required by state charter, ie. oil an gas lease revenues returned to the state budget, and budget surplus kicked back to residents each fiscal year.

I actually watched Guiliani too. Not one mention yet of policy. All those old white people at the convention are getting off on Obama jokes; I hope they get some meat in McCain's speech tomorrow night, because it hasn't showed up yet.

Funny, my husband told me there was a black guy in the audience. I looked, but I couldn't find him.

[BryanS]

Funny, my husband told me there was a black guy in the audience. I looked, but I couldn't find him.

There was one or two. You might have seen a Hispanic or two as well. But overwhelmingly white and old... which is the demographic that votes.

Would love to see a responsible reporter actually interview Palin... but McCain is keeping her off limits to reporters... as well as his own mother. "They won't let me talk!"

[20thStDad]

There was one or two. You might have seen a Hispanic or two as well. But overwhelming white and old... which is the demographic that votes.

This is a good point - old people vote like crazy, way more than other demographics. They getting polled as much as everyone else? I haven't looked at the source of any polls, but if any are internet they are leaving out the most important voters.

[barracuda]

It's interesting the speakers at the RNC blasted Obama as part of the "Washington elite" (isn't McCain also?) but at the same time dismissed him as inexperienced (isn't Palin also?). So I guess 3+ years as a U. S. Senator is long enough to become Washington elite, but not quite long enough to be considered experienced.

[KinkaidAlum]

I just finished watching Rudy and Palin. I want those 2 hours back.

And, did anyone else catch Palin when she said something to the effect of Obama wants more terrorists? Did I mis-hear that? I am praying that I did (only after I pray for that gas line).

[BryanS]

This is a good point - old people vote like crazy, way more than other demographics. They getting polled as much as everyone else? I haven't looked at the source of any polls, but if any are internet they are leaving out the most important voters.

I think this demographic is often left out. They are the entire mid section of the country. All the little towns, that huge sea of red that is figuratively - and literally - middle America. I grew up in a small town. I never heard anyone ever say they were called by a pollster. Yet the town voted 80%+ republican. You add up a lot of small towns, you get a lot of people.

That's why Palin was a "good pick." It's not about qualifications anymore, or experience. Here you have a person from a small town, who goes to church, has a family, who is from an energy-rich state. Tired of paying through the nose for gas? Who cannot relate to that? ... well... Palin knows about that, if you believe the GOP rhetoric. In addition, she is the bait for the radical right; a blessing in the event that McCain dies. Because she can then place radicals on the Supreme Court. McCain would also do that... but Palin would be worse. Thankfully, Congress will remain Democratic to put some level of check on that type of judicial abuse to come.

This election will be just as close to 2000... and the only poll that matters is the one on election day, regardless of what "electoralvote.com" is saying.

The only sliver of hope may be the fact that democratic registration among 18 to 34 year olds is up 192% over 2004. Don't know if that is going to be enough to counter the radical right base.

[Jeebus]

This is a good point - old people vote like crazy, way more than other demographics. They getting polled as much as everyone else? I haven't looked at the source of any polls, but if any are internet they are leaving out the most important voters.

I'm 30, white, and hate polls. I can only imagine how those twice my age feel about them.

[RedScare]

Two things I realized while listening to Palin tonight.

1) I am truly embarrassed for the GOP. Back in the days when I was in the GOP, the GOP put forth leaders that were businessmen and foreign policy experts. They were arrogant, but it was because they knew what they were doing. Now, the GOP wants to run people that are "just your average hockey mom". What is the GOP obsession with such mediocre candidates? I want my elected officials to lead, not have a beer with me.

2) I have discovered that I am a member of the intellectual elite. And, I am unapologetic about it. I didn't set out to be one. But, the GOP kept sending one non-intellectual after another to the nomination until I feel like Einstein compared to these guys. What happened? Back in the 50s and 60s, we all read Popular Science and talked of going to the moon. American scientific superiority was serious business. We studied how to solve not only the world's problems, but our own. Now, it seems to be a race toward ignorance. The only policies that are cheered are the ones that expose our bigotry, xenophobia, lack of economic insight, and scientific antagonism. We denigrate those countries that still promote scientific and engineering know-how, and revel in our low-grade fratboy mentality. I doubt that I will ever understand it, but I certainly am not going to participate in it.

So there you have it NASCAR America, you now have the perfect candidate!

[memebag]

2) I have discovered that I am a member of the intellectual elite. And, I am unapologetic about it. I didn't set out to be one. But, the GOP kept sending one non-intellectual after another to the nomination until I feel like Einstein compared to these guys. What happened? Back in the 50s and 60s, we all read Popular Science and talked of going to the moon. American scientific superiority was serious business. We studied how to solve not only the world's problems, but our own. Now, it seems to be a race toward ignorance. The only policies that are cheered are the ones that expose our bigotry, xenophobia, lack of economic insight, and scientific antagonism. We denigrate those countries that still promote scientific and engineering know-how, and revel in our low-grade fratboy mentality. I doubt that I will ever understand it, but I certainly am not going to participate in it.

If you haven't read it yet, it's time for you to read C. M. Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons". All will be revealed.

[BryanS]

But the difference is that I'm against him for not being a more conservative Christian, as if clinging to your Bible is a bad thing. He almost made it seem like its bad to be one. It's from a different angle.

It is. Especially with Palin. Republicans might as well have just have named Toonces as VP. Because we are headed over the cliff with this idiotic moron, should McCain win (and die).

[BryanS]

YES. Especially when the focus of reports seem to be on the candidate's unwed teenage daughter's pregnancy. How petty.

I don't think it is petty at all. She wants all of America's daughters to keep their legs closed by denying them access to proper sex education, but can't seem to control her own. How can she control a country then? In fact, she was pregnant with her first born, before she was married. "No sex until marriage!" - a load of crap. Just keep it coming...

It was interesting because Palin indicated that her daughter "chose to keep it." Chose. Choice. Hmmm... sounds like Palin let daughter decide if she wanted to have an abortion... Thankfully, proper brainwashing helped her daughter make the right choice, even though she's probably not ready to have kids.

[HtownWxBoy]

I guess she was for the bridge to nowhere when she needed their votes... now she's against it. Typical politician.