2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[musicman]

A woman with a 5 children, including a 4-month-old Down syndrome baby, who has 20 months of experience running a state with a population and economy the size of Austin, who has no national or foreign policy experience, and who only won the governorship because she pointed out that the state's Republican party and governor were corrupt??

That has absolutely everything to do with it.

i was responding to your mccain melanoma question. this just indicates to me that she is ambitious and willing to address issues. if you don't want politicians to address corruption, sounds like you want more of the same.

[westguy]

That's about as reliable a news source as the one-sided junk that has been spewed on this thread in this forum (from both sides of course). It's simply tiring. I know, it's my own fault for continuing to check this thread, but the ratio of well-reasoned posts that think/talk through an issue to those that just keep re-stating their already obvious positions is not very high.

It was going to come up here, so I posted first with a site that spares the worst of it.

[wernicke]

i was responding to your mccain melanoma question. this just indicates to me that she is ambitious and willing to address issues. if you don't want politicians to address corruption, sounds like you want more of the same.

Exactly musicman. The McCain age and melanoma issue is quite serious because he has chosen such an unknown quantity that almost no one in the entire country knew who she was until Friday morning. And someone McCain himself HAD ONLY MET IN PERSON ONE TIME!

And as for addressing corruption... you are giving her a lot of credit for addressing the widely acknowledged corrupt Alaskan Republican party. In 2006 she was quoted as saying she supported "the bridge to nowhere". She wasn't against said corruption until it became a complete national joke.

[musicman]

And as for addressing corruption... you are giving her a lot of credit for addressing the widely acknowledged corrupt Alaskan Republican party.

remember you're the one who brought it up.

[Trae]

Interesting list:

1 Sarah Palin has an Abramoff problem - a Pro-Palin illegal mailer was sent during her gubernatorial campaign on behalf of Palin by the RGA, the DC group that got money from Abramoff, Reed, etc.

2 She advocated AGAINST mine safety / pollution control

3 She has an ANTI-ENVIRONMENT RECORD and is on the wrong side of global warming and doesn't think polar bears should be listed as endangered because it interferes with her drilling plans.

4 She's against sex education - abstinence only.

5 She appears to oppose windfall taxes on oil companies at the national level but supported them to benefit her state.

6 Believes Creationism should be taught in science classes

7 Don't believe the whispers that she supportive of the GLBT community. She's opposed to state health benefits for same-sex partners and only vetoed a resolution that would have ended state benefits because the Supreme Court had already declared it unconstitutional.

8 She's opposed to universal health care and stem cell research

9 No foreign policy experience? According to the folks at FOX think she has foreign policy experience because "Alaska is near Russia." Oh, and she didn't even have a passport until last year.

10 She doesn't know what the Vice President really does.

11 This choice is NOT helping McCain's polling numbers, especially with women.

12 McCain only met Sarah Palin ONCE and talked to her TWICE making this a purely cynical and desperate political appointment by HIS CAMPAIGN not by him! She's not really HIS VP choice.

13 She's deeply connected to the Bridge to Nowhere.

14 She stated that she would force her own daughter to have a rapist's child.

15 She has 3 houses

16 Terre pointed out that she's connected to VECO - the company at the heart of Ted Stevens' troubles. She also received an endorsement from Ted that has suddenly disappeared from her webpage.

17 She called candidate Clinton a whiner. Why does everyone in the McCain campaign think others are whiners?

18 She apparently hasn't taken a stand on most major political issues

19 Her selection has created a major rift among the Republicans, especially Romney & Pawlenty.

20 Past quotes by Rove make Palin's selection look like desperation.

21 Palin may have been scrubbing her own wikipedia page

22 Sarah Palin, Buchanite - Palin supported Pat Buchanan in 2000, a fact which may alienate certain Florida voters. Hat tip to misslotus

23 She was vetted too quickly and McCain only picked her the night before making the announcement.

24 She's still focused on Alaska not the fact the she would be Vice President for the whole nation.

25 She participated in a profane on-air attack againt the Alaskan State Senate President and giggled at the word b*tch..

26 Like Bush and McCain, she can't admit when she's wrong.

27 She's linked to the Dominionist movement and Joel's Army.

28 The United Steelworkers have already spoken out against her.

29 She was a bad mayor who left her town's economy in tatters.

30 She supported Obama's energy plan, but suddenly these references are disappearing.

31 Some of the PUMA's believe that John McCain is patronizing them.

32 Additionally, this choice eliminates the "He's not ready" attack on Obama.

33 This choice raises the issue of McCain's age (Is Palin ready to take over if he keels over).

34 It also raises the issue of McCain's past unfavorable statements against women.

35 Additionally, this choice reminds us that McCain is an adulterer and raises the spectre that he is just a dirty old man with wandering eyes.

36 Palin's husband is on BP's payroll creating a possible conflict of interest.

37 She made extremely poor use of Eminent Domain during her time as mayor.

38 She favors censoring library books (Alert your local librarian!)

39 Sen. Ted Stevens and Rep. Don Young (both under investigation) campaigned for her in 2006.

40 She didn't support McCain in the primaries.

41 The top 2 ALASKAN newspapers question her fitness for the job.

42 She supports aerial hunting of wolves even though it was outlawed by Congress. She's using a loophole.. Hat tip to Scarce

43. She's part of Feminists for Life and is AGAINST BIRTH CONTROL. It would be awesome if someone asked her McCain's now famous "should insurance companies cover viagra/birth control" question.

44 Undecideds apparently don't like the Palin pick. McCain can keep his base energized all he wants. Thanks marabout40!

45 More environmental problems - She fighting to prevent Belugas from being listed as endangered. Thanks again Terre!

46 In addition to polar bears, belugas, and wolves, for the first time in Alaskan history she is supporting hunting black bear sows and cubs. Thank you for the information Bodean.

47 She's either going to be distracted by being deposed soon or she is going to draw negative attention by trying to avoid being deposed.

48 There have been discussion of witness tampering and possible impeachment hearings related to charges of her abuse of power

49 MEME: Palin's selection provides a clear example of John McCain's hasty decision-making and poor judgement on important issues (like who would be best qualified to take his place if he could not complete his term).

50 She wants to destroy 1.5 MILLION ACRES of ANWR, not the 2000 acres she has lied about on the news.

51 Palin stated "I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq.."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/30/201818/606/27/580690

I'd prefer to hear it from the horses mouth. Have any websites or message boards?

I've found one thread already and they don't seem to mind his choice. It's actually a little refreshing reading their thoughts.

Here's one:

The first national polls on John McCain's pick of Sarah Palin yesterday came out today from Rasmussen and Gallup -- and contrary to what the GOP probably hoped, she scored less well with women than men.

Here's a finding from Gallup: Among Democratic women -- including those who may be disappointed that Hillary Clinton did not win the Democratic nomination -- 9% say Palin makes them more likely to support McCain, 15% less likely.

From Rasmussen: Some 38% of men said they were more likely to vote for McCain now, but only 32% of women. By a narrow 41% to 35% margin, men said she was not ready to be president -- but women soundly rejected her, 48% to 25%.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1003844485

[lockmat]

Here's one:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1003844485

Trae, I want to know what independent voters think in general. Not what dems and republicans think about Palin.

[RedScare]

That's about as reliable a news source as the one-sided junk that has been spewed on this thread in this forum (from both sides of course). It's simply tiring. I know, it's my own fault for continuing to check this thread, but the ratio of well-reasoned posts that think/talk through an issue to those that just keep re-stating their already obvious positions is not very high.

True.

It's only been two days, but I am already tired of the "isn't it great that a working mom is VP candidate" thing. I have nothing against working moms. It is the insistance that they are special just because they are moms. Last I checked, women have been having children since the dawn of man. It is what they do. My own mom had 7, but not once have I ever heard her claim to be special because of it. This has nothing to do with a woman's ability to work, lead or govern. In my view, women are absolutely equal in that regard. This is about the particular brand of woman who parades her motherhood around like a prized poodle at a dog show. Give me Maggie Thatcher. Give me Hillary Clinton. Give me Ann Richards. But, for the love of god, please don't give me Elizabeth Hasselback!

I'll give McCain credit for one very big move. This pick has completely derailed all talk of real issues that are important to the country. He desparately needed the ultra conservative base's infamous ability to derail serious political dialogue in favor of trite and meaningless drivel, and boy, did he ever get that in spades. For several hundred posts, this thread's GOP stalwarts had derided Obama's lack of experience, yet they turned on a dime when McCain picked the gubernatorial equivalent of a Fort Worth mayor as his running mate. Now, even the male posters are extolling the virtues of exurban soccer moms who can breast feed and use a Blackberry. It is enough to make me physically ill.

I don't know when I have ever had less faith in the future of my country. Even in the early days after 9/11, at least conservatives and liberals debated the merits of diplomacy versus neo-conservatism, use of the military for national defense versus preemptive wars. Now, it is whether creationism should be taught in schools!

I think I'll leave this topic to the shallow. I enjoy a spirited debate about real issues. But, when musicman feels compelled to bring up 12 year old , and lockmat calls his new favorite soccer mom "awesome" before he even knows how to pronounce her name, well, intelligent debate is going to be lost in the chaos. And, that's not to pick on them. The entire country is more fixated on , breast feeding and home schooling than any number of real issues worth debating. I'm done. I don't watch daytime TV for a reason. I'm not going to replace it with HAIF faux political threads.

[houstonmacbro]

True.

It's only been two days, but I am already tired of the "isn't it great that a working mom is VP candidate" thing. I have nothing against working moms. It is the insistance that they are special just because they are moms. Last I checked, women have been having children since the dawn of man. It is what they do. My own mom had 7, but not once have I ever heard her claim to be special because of it. This has nothing to do with a woman's ability to work, lead or govern. In my view, women are absolutely equal in that regard. This is about the particular brand of woman who parades her motherhood around like a prized poodle at a dog show. Give me Maggie Thatcher. Give me Hillary Clinton. Give me Ann Richards. But, for the love of god, please don't give me Elizabeth Hasselback!

I'll give McCain credit for one very big move. This pick has completely derailed all talk of real issues that are important to the country. He desparately needed the ultra conservative base's infamous ability to derail serious political dialogue in favor of trite and meaningless drivel, and boy, did he ever get that in spades. For several hundred posts, this thread's GOP stalwarts had derided Obama's lack of experience, yet they turned on a dime when McCain picked the gubernatorial equivalent of a Fort Worth mayor as his running mate. Now, even the male posters are extolling the virtues of exurban soccer moms who can breast feed and use a Blackberry. It is enough to make me physically ill.

I don't know when I have ever had less faith in the future of my country. Even in the early days after 9/11, at least conservatives and liberals debated the merits of diplomacy versus neo-conservatism, use of the military for national defense versus preemptive wars. Now, it is whether creationism should be taught in schools!

I think I'll leave this topic to the shallow. I enjoy a spirited debate about real issues. But, when musicman feels compelled to bring up 12 year old , and lockmat calls his new favorite soccer mom "awesome" before he even knows how to pronounce her name, well, intelligent debate is going to be lost in the chaos. And, that's not to pick on them. The entire country is more fixated on , breast feeding and home schooling than any number of real issues worth debating. I'm done. I don't watch daytime TV for a reason. I'm not going to replace it with HAIF faux political threads.

No one's really interested in the real issues of this country. We're all too busy one-upping one another like high-fiving school boys (and girls).

It's really sad.

The right is now supporting the same qualities of Palin that just a week ago they were deriding in Obama.

[musicman]

I'm not going to replace it with HAIF faux political threads.

after your beauty queen comment, it's already too late.

[lockmat]

True.

It's only been two days, but I am already tired of the "isn't it great that a working mom is VP candidate" thing. I have nothing against working moms. It is the insistance that they are special just because they are moms. Last I checked, women have been having children since the dawn of man. It is what they do. My own mom had 7, but not once have I ever heard her claim to be special because of it. This has nothing to do with a woman's ability to work, lead or govern. In my view, women are absolutely equal in that regard. This is about the particular brand of woman who parades her motherhood around like a prized poodle at a dog show. Give me Maggie Thatcher. Give me Hillary Clinton. Give me Ann Richards. But, for the love of god, please don't give me Elizabeth Hasselback!

I'll give McCain credit for one very big move. This pick has completely derailed all talk of real issues that are important to the country. He desparately needed the ultra conservative base's infamous ability to derail serious political dialogue in favor of trite and meaningless drivel, and boy, did he ever get that in spades. For several hundred posts, this thread's GOP stalwarts had derided Obama's lack of experience, yet they turned on a dime when McCain picked the gubernatorial equivalent of a Fort Worth mayor as his running mate. Now, even the male posters are extolling the virtues of exurban soccer moms who can breast feed and use a Blackberry. It is enough to make me physically ill.

I don't know when I have ever had less faith in the future of my country. Even in the early days after 9/11, at least conservatives and liberals debated the merits of diplomacy versus neo-conservatism, use of the military for national defense versus preemptive wars. Now, it is whether creationism should be taught in schools!

I think I'll leave this topic to the shallow. I enjoy a spirited debate about real issues. But, when musicman feels compelled to bring up 12 year old , and lockmat calls his new favorite soccer mom "awesome" before he even knows how to pronounce her name, well, intelligent debate is going to be lost in the chaos. And, that's not to pick on them. The entire country is more fixated on , breast feeding and home schooling than any number of real issues worth debating. I'm done. I don't watch daytime TV for a reason. I'm not going to replace it with HAIF faux political threads.

I think you're example of me is a little unfair. I never once said I liked her because of her soccer mom status. I liked her based off the accomplishments she noted in her speech and that I read online. It was based off a very short resume at the time. But I don't know if you've kept up with the thread b/c I did later say this...

I'd also like to come back down to earth a little bit. While I'm happy about what she's done and who she is, it remains to be seen how much knowledge she really does have in some areas. But I do think there's opportunity for her to learn and grow on the job. And if she's got foundational principles, I think she'll do fine. I'm just glad I don't have to worry too much since she's our VP and not our leading candidate.

[lockmat]

Also: just an fyi, nothing more, nothing less:

UTICA, New York - Republican John McCain's surprise announcement Friday of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate - some 16 hours after Democrat Barack Obama's historic speech accepting his party

[20thStDad]

Interesting list:

(50 things you posted on Palin)

You could have used up a lot less space by just stating the obvious, that she is a Republican and slightly further to the right that most people can stand.

No one's really interested in the real issues of this country. We're all too busy one-upping one another like high-fiving school boys (and girls).

It's really sad.

That's a good way to put what I've been thinking. No one is switching teams, and us independents are just annoyed by both sides.

[Trae]

Also: just an fyi, nothing more, nothing less:

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews1547.html

http://www.zogby.com/

Saw it on another board. Not sure of Zogby's reputation.

And Gallup has Obama/Biden up by 6 points.

Also, Obama is still winning where it counts the most. The electoral vote.

[wernicke]

That's a good way to put what I've been thinking. No one is switching teams, and us independents are just annoyed by both sides.

I think it is good the pick has sparked a national discussion.

I personally have a soft-spot for John McCain, for what he's been through and how he has worked in a bipartisan way on several issues, but... man... has his drastic pandering to the base been helluva disappointing, and discredited his basic political philosophy.

I even think the country will be fine with a President McCain, although I think Obama is a much better choice for moving the country forward. But I certainly cannot say the same thing about McCain's VP choice. Very troubling.

[barracuda]

That's a good way to put what I've been thinking. No one is switching teams, and us independents are just annoyed by both sides.

What issues are important to you? Maybe that would lead to a more productive discussion than referring to other people's posts as one-sided junk.

Some of us made our decisions a long time ago because of issues that are near and dear to us. Additionally, the candidates are only further entrenching themselves into their positions on many issues at this phase, so I wouldn't expect much to change in position going into the election. Otherwise, they will be accused of flip-flopping. Most of us are probably not going to switch sides this late in the game unless there are some critical revelations or major gaffes before Nov 4.

Regarding McCain, he was a Republican I respected and admired during the 2000 campaign. He was a maverick on many issues, and he did not always follow the party line, unlike most politicians. My problem with him now is he's changed dramatically for the 2008 campaign. He's essentially remade himself into a generic Republican politician, and the Palin VP choice only makes this more clear IMO. In the process, he has changed positions on a number of important issues so that he aligns with the Republican party line. I don't know which McCain would turn up during a McCain presidency -- the maverick I respected or the party shill he's become as of late.

As for Obama, he does not have as much experience as I would like in a president, but I'm willing to take the chance on him since he appears to have good judgement on most of the issues that matter to me. This includes issues like Iraq, his economic policies, energy and environment to name a few. He also picked a good VP in Biden, as he will lend Obama years of foreign policy experience until Obama fully fills his shoes as President. I don't agree with Obama on everything (FISA, for example), but I don't fully agree with any candidate for that matter.

[crunchtastic]

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews1547.html

http://www.zogby.com/

Saw it on another board. Not sure of Zogby's reputation.

In academic circles Zogby is not without criticism, but is considered to have taken polling metrics light years ahead of where they were. You can trust him as much as Gallup, etc.

Regarding Palin as VP, I keep waiting to wake up from this psychotic dream, but haven't yet.

He sold his effing soul to a party he only even loosely subscribes to, his hunger for power is so great. He doesn't believe in Palin, her history, or her ability to do ***-all. Men like McCain ( elderly career military officers, of which I know a few things) would just as soon as not have to deal with women in positions of authority, period. He looks at her overly big hoop earrings and highlights and smart-girl glasses and is thinking two things: 1) they had better be right about this and 2) I'd like to try some of that.

Please. As a woman, this is nothing but a sick joke to me. I was an early Hilary supporter, and I can tell you that a militant pro-life, small town moose hunter who wants to teach creationism in public schools is not the way to turn me off of Obama. WTF??? This is the most effed-up display of political expediency I think I've ever seen.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Trae, I want to know what independent voters think in general. Not what dems and republicans think about Palin.

Have no fear. The Independent DJ's here

I think Palin was a great choice when it came to taking the spotlight off of Obama's DNC speech into the weekend. I also feel sorry for Republicans and Conservatives going for the McCain ticket right now because of the circumstances created by Hurricane Gustav, and the fact that we will not get to see a four-day RNC appeal the way we did with the DNC. A lot of independents like myself were looking forward to the RNC to hear what Palin had to say, but the attention will be in Louisiana this week. Hopefully, the Biden-Palin debate will make up for that.

Here's Sarah Palin pros IMO:

1) She's brought new buzz to the Republican party, and I think did so more than any of the other talked about candidates would have. McCain flat-out needed some kind of buzz after Obama's DNC speech, and Palin's out-of-nowhere announcement worked.

2) She has a really high approval rating in Alaska as governor. I think I heard 70-80%. Having a majority of the home-state backing a candidate is a good thing. That wasn't the case for Gore in 2000, where Tennessee was split (I can't remember, but I think Bush may have actually won that state then. Please feel free to correct me there.)

3) McCain's announcement of Palin all of a sudden will make Palin the most talked about woman in American politics; something that Democrat Hilary Clinton could claim until this past Friday. The fact that she's a mother of five will give her that All-American image, and will win votes of people who were only looking to vote for a woman regardless of where they stood on the issue.

Here's Sarah Palin cons IMO:

1) People are not aware of her or what she would be able to do with so little knowledge in foreign policy, especially compared to Joe Biden.

2) McCain no longer can legitimately claim that Obama's inexperience is a factor, because McCain decided that the person that would be best to replace him if something happened is someone with far less experience than Obama. (Being Governor of a rural state is not equal in experience to working in Congress and at least understanding how Washington works with different issues and agendas)

3) She's not considered a moderate. In fact, she seems to appease conservatives much more than moderates, and moderates are the ones that will decide the next Prez. It's going to be hard to promote conservative ideals to a nation who has a >30% approval rating for the current conservative President. Not saying it can't be done, but Palin will have to do a lot to prove that her ideas are ones that most Americans want, and that she will be able to give McCain, a 26-year Senator, advice if both are in office.

[westguy]

In academic circles Zogby is not without criticism, but is considered to have taken polling metrics light years ahead of where they were. You can trust him as much as Gallup, etc.

Regarding Palin as VP, I keep waiting to wake up from this psychotic dream, but haven't yet.

He sold his effing soul to a party he only even loosely subscribes to, his hunger for power is so great. He doesn't believe in Palin, her history, or her ability to do ***-all. Men like McCain ( elderly career military officers, of which I know a few things) would just as soon as not have to deal with women in positions of authority, period. He looks at her overly big hoop earrings and highlights and smart-girl glasses and is thinking two things: 1) they had better be right about this and 2) I'd like to try some of that.

Please. As a woman, this is nothing but a sick joke to me. I was an early Hilary supporter, and I can tell you that a militant pro-life, small town moose hunter who wants to teach creationism in public schools is not the way to turn me off of Obama. WTF??? This is the most effed-up display of political expediency I think I've ever seen.

I think the criticism with Zogby is that he only calls landlines when a lot of people (especially younger people) are ditching them for cellphones.

Palin - I think she's going to turn off a lot of women voters. She's the younger newer beauty queen version of Hillary. It's going to call attention to the fact that he ditched his old wife for his younger mistress. Palin reminds me of those communications majors who go into pharmaceutical sales or tv anchoring. Maybe he should've called Dominique Sachse.

[crunchtastic]

Palin reminds me of those communications majors who go into pharmaceutical sales or tv anchoring. Maybe he should've called Dominique Sachse.

That made me laugh out loud! They appear to use the same lip liner.

Too bad Ms Palin can't hook me up with a fruit tray and some Zoloft samples, and then just leave.

[wernicke]

Palin reminds me of those communications majors who go into pharmaceutical sales or tv anchoring. Maybe he should've called Dominique Sachse.

First, I was a biology-journalism double major and let me tell you... journalism majors are not the sharpest tools in the shed.

Second, HA! I was thinking of the Dominique Sachse comparison earlier today. Could you imagine Dominique becoming mayor of Bonham, TX (population 9000)... then "governor" of Austin, TX (relative population/economy similar to Alaska) for 20 months... then BAM! she gets named VP running-mate!

[wernicke]

Can anyone tell me if this picture is real or not??

EDIT: On second look... it must just be a look-a-like.

[Trae]

Fake.

[Jeebus]

Obama says I'm my brother's keeper. Perhaps I am (you'd know it for fact unless you were a close friend or relative, especially from over the last couple months). But that is not Obama's or anybody else's decision to make than mine. He's talking about government-enforced redistribution of wealth from those who have earned it to those who have not, whether the individual taxpayers would want to support it or not.

I advocate charity. I believe that the individual is responsible for determining how charitiable resources ought to be put to use; their decision should reflect their own personal system of ethics. That Obama believes that his ethics are in any way superior to anybody else's and that he is willing to take property from one man to give to another is tantamount to robbery. It is unethical. It is disrespectful. It is worse than racism, sexism, or anything we have conquered in the past; it is classist. Whereas I desire that respect be granted to all human beings equally, Obama wants to punish the most productive in our society in order to reward the less productive...but ethics aside, this mentality also removes the incentive to be productive, and in so doing causes economic growth to stagnate. Reapportionment is good for some and bad for some, but stagnation is good for no one. Growth is good for all.

CONSERVATIVE POST OF THE THREAD.

[crunchtastic]

CONSERVATIVE POST OF THE THREAD.

TheNiche recognizes your comment and implied support, but does not wish to comment at this time.

[Jeebus]

In fact, Clinton ordered missile strikes against targets in Afghanistan in 1998 in an attempt to hit Osama bin Laden, but Republicans balked at this, complaining that it was as an attempt to shift attention from the Lewinsky scandal. The Republicans balked that Clinton spent too much time obsessing with terrorism, and fought him at every step as Clinton tried to enact anti-terrorism legislation. It's just hard to remember because the media was obsessed with Monica Lewinsky at the time.

Perhaps had he just not cheated on his wife, in the White House, while as our President - we wouldn't have been so distracted and could have focused on his efforts to weed out terrorism.

The Clinton Administration handed over a detailed terrorism-fighting manual to the Bush Administration when Bush took office.

The only thing the Clinton administration did on its way out was steal anything not nailed down - including the "w" keys on all the computer keyboards.

So you think the full-time job of raising 4 kids (1 of her kids is out of the house) is compatible with the 24/7 job of being President of the US? I think it is a fair question, but obviously it is easy to call sexist.

Why can't dad take care of the kids? Is he incapable or something? Does everyone really expect her to go to cabinet meetings pushing a stroller? Is she supposed to sit around and keep popping out babies at home and whipping out the teets when one needs topping off? Is this really the argument of the more liberal, more progressive, more equal side?

The super wealthy folks are benefiting the most from centuries of investments by the federal government. I wouldn't say they should be taxed exorbitantly in a lop-sided scale, but they can afford to carry more of a tax burden than productive middle class folks who have bills piling up.

The middle class has bills piling up because they have forgotten that they are just that: the middle class. Everyone wants to live like a millionaire now on a 60k annual income. It ain't happening, and now the government wants me, Joe Taxpayer, to help out all my neighbors that didn't feel like earning their home. If Bush reluctantly caved - I bet Obama is foaming to keep forclosures frozen.

Can someone break down the Obama tax plan vs. the McCain tax plan? ANYONE? I want to know how little I'll have to make with Obama to not get taxed to death.

[memebag]

Can someone break down the Obama tax plan vs. the McCain tax plan? ANYONE? I want to know how little I'll have to make with Obama to not get taxed to death.

See TaxProf Blog. The bottom 4 quintiles make out better under Obama's plan. Both will increase the deficit by trillions of dollars.

[Jeebus]

This is going to require some reading, but thanks! Anyone else have anything else like this?

[barracuda]

Perhaps had he just not cheated on his wife, in the White House, while as our President - we wouldn't have been so distracted and could have focused on his efforts to weed out terrorism.

How was that a distraction to the American public? Sure it was wrong, but it was a private matter. The only distraction is that his opponents turned into a political wedge to try and destroy his credibility.

Honestly, I find the scandal-obsessed nature of our society to be really pointless. The media and political obsession with scandals is the real distraction, not the acts themselves. Let him and his wife work it out and leave us out of it.

The only thing the Clinton administration did on its way out was steal anything not nailed down - including the "w" keys on all the computer keyboards.

FAIL. A GSA audit found nothing unusual regarding the White House condition when Clinton left office.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...19/MN169709.DTL

These myths get passed out in the news media without them doing any real verification. And then most of the MSM fails to acknowledge their failure after the fact, leaving the impression that it really happened.

The middle class has bills piling up because they have forgotten that they are just that: the middle class. Everyone wants to live like a millionaire now on a 60k annual income. It ain't happening, and now the government wants me, Joe Taxpayer, to help out all my neighbors that didn't feel like earning their home. If Bush reluctantly caved - I bet Obama is foaming to keep forclosures frozen.

I don't know about that. I can't speak for everyone, but I personally have no debt other than a home mortgage, and it appears I may be a little better off under the Obama plan. If I had an extravagant income, I would probably do better with McCain.

Can someone break down the Obama tax plan vs. the McCain tax plan? ANYONE? I want to know how little I'll have to make with Obama to not get taxed to death.

There is a tax calculator here: http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/. I haven't verified it's accuracy though.

[Jeebus]

How was that a distraction to the American public? Sure it was wrong, but it was a private matter. The only distraction is that his opponents turned into a political wedge to try and destroy his credibility.

Honestly, I find the scandal-obsessed nature of our society to be really pointless. The media and political obsession with scandals is the real distraction, not the acts themselves. Let him and his wife work it out and leave us out of it.

I guess we're going to have to dredge up the old argument about "presidents committing adultery in the white house is wrong" now? Leaving a husband and wife to work out martial issues - especially those of adultery - are not left to their privacy and discretion when they are a publicly elected official, and the highest ranking one in the land at that.

A GSA audit found nothing unusual regarding the White House condition when Clinton left office.

I was being facetious about the stolen china and "w" keys.

I don't know about that. I can't speak for everyone, but I personally have no debt other than a home mortgage, and it appears I may be a little better off under the Obama plan. If I had an extravagant income, I would probably do better with McCain.

First, define extravagant.

Also, you might be better under Obama come next spring, but you need to realize that right now you and I, aka the responsible, are paying for our neighbors' foolish and envious visions of grandeur by having the foreclosures frozen. Someone has to pay that debt, and its now the Federal Government, with our tax dollars, reallocated to more FHA loans for those who would not normally qualify - but now do due to a foreclosure on their home.

I'm not saying we should be putting people on the streets, but its not like thousands of people who are foreclosing now were homeless before. Hey, there's a reason I don't live in Rice Village, The Woodlands, or First Colony - I can't afford it. It just makes me mad that even though I was responsible enough to realize that - I still have to help pay for all those who weren't (granted, there are the occasional deserved cases in which lay-offs come to mind).

My point behind all this is that there's no way Obama would kill this program, but likely expand it to cover even more people with even thinner criteria to meet the qualifications.

There is a tax calculator here: http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/. I haven't verified it's accuracy though.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[RedScare]

Also, you might be better under Obama come next spring, but you need to realize that right now you and I, aka the responsible, are paying for our neighbors' foolish and envious visions of grandeur by having the foreclosures frozen. Someone has to pay that debt, and its now the Federal Government, with our tax dollars, reallocated to more FHA loans for those who would not normally qualify - but now do due to a foreclosure on their home.

I'm not saying we should be putting people on the streets, but its not like thousands of people who are foreclosing now were homeless before. Hey, there's a reason I don't live in Rice Village, The Woodlands, or First Colony - I can't afford it. It just makes me mad that even though I was responsible enough to realize that - I still have to help pay for all those who weren't (granted, there are the occasional deserved cases in which lay-offs come to mind).

My point behind all this is that there's no way Obama would kill this program, but likely expand it to cover even more people with even thinner criteria to meet the qualifications.

Is it safe to asume that you are just as upset at the enormous sums of money proposed to be spent by McCain on Bush's "foolish and envious visions of grandeur" in Iraq, or is only Democratic spending a problem?

I also noted that you did not apportion any blame to the lenders and hedge fund operators who lied and failed to safeguard investors' funds for these mortgages, thereby costing taxpayers billions in bank bailouts, but I'm sure that was merely an oversight.