2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[Trae]

Garbage Quote

What garbage, especially the flip-flopping part. McCain is the most flip-flopping of them all, AND it seems that Georgia had some part in this, too. Both countries were wrong.

It seems you want someone who's quick to anger and will make rash decisions to involve our military in armed conflicts on the other side of the world, even if our immediate safety is not at stake?

[TheNiche]

Feh. Taxes are punishment. We should tax everything we want to discourage.

I'm OK with that, except that the only entity that should have to account for the taxes should be the one that actually creates the discouraged good (with a rebate if it is exported).

Taxing inheritance is a good example of that. Accumulated family wealth should be discouraged in a meritocracy.

If it brings me pleasure to voluntarily transfer my wealth to anybody for any reason, then a transaction has occured which should be subject to the VAT. In your example, the inheritor is essentially selling a service, that the inheritee is made happy.

That means that I do think that inheritances and gifts should be considered taxable, but I don't think that they ought to be subject to rules that are specific to them. They are just another transaction, like any other, which should apply whether I were to give wealth to my family, to a friend, to a corporation, to a charity, or even to a specific government project.

People would not be as motivated to earn and accumulate merit (i.e. wealth) if their merit cannot be applied to the use of their choice. This applies to plenty of things society doesn't tend to like, such as prostitutes, drugs, cigarettes, liquor, and guns, as well as to inheritances. If you desire to promote meritocracy, any kind of special tax on any kind of consumption item undermines the concept of a meritocracy.

[westguy76]

McCain for the win, because there is so much to lose.

[memebag]

I'm OK with that, except that the only entity that should have to account for the taxes should be the one that actually creates the discouraged good (with a rebate if it is exported).

It's usually actions that are punished, not goods.

If it brings me pleasure to voluntarily transfer my wealth to anybody for any reason, then a transaction has occured which should be subject to the VAT. In your example, the inheritor is essentially selling a service, that the inheritee is made happy.

That means that I do think that inheritances and gifts should be considered taxable, but I don't think that they ought to be subject to rules that are specific to them. They are just another transaction, like any other, which should apply whether I were to give wealth to my family, to a friend, to a corporation, to a charity, or even to a specific government project.

People would not be as motivated to earn and accumulate merit (i.e. wealth) if their merit cannot be applied to the use of their choice. This applies to plenty of things society doesn't tend to like, such as prostitutes, drugs, cigarettes, liquor, and guns, as well as to inheritances. If you desire to promote meritocracy, any kind of special tax on any kind of consumption item undermines the concept of a meritocracy.

Merit <> wealth. Do you know what a meritocracy is?

[TheNiche]

I just look at the ever so slight, and not even guaranteed, tax "increase" under the Democrats as a necessary fee to keep the Republicans out of my bedroom. I will gladly pay.

I've heard of people refer to a 'Republican boogeyman', but I didn't realize that they actually existed. Do they hide under beds or, like most homophobes, in closets? One way or another, it sounds like you need to call an exterminator.

Me personally, though, I wouldn't vote an exterminator into political office. Just pay them to kill bugs, boogeymen and such.

[ricco67]

I've heard of people refer to a 'Republican boogeyman', but I didn't realize that they actually existed. Do they hide under beds or, like most homophobes, in closets? One way or another, it sounds like you need to call an exterminator.

Given some of the past philandering of Republicans and conservatives, they might be there just so they can watch and ask to join later.

[TheNiche]

It's usually actions that are punished, not goods.

Goods, services, whatever. Same thing. They are all consumption items.

Merit <> wealth. Do you know what a meritocracy is?

Ability + Effort = Merit. (A+B=C)

Ability + Effort = Money. (A+B=D) And Money = Wealth. (D=E)

Merit = Wealth. (C=E)

[memebag]

Goods, services, whatever. Same thing. They are all consumption items.

Ability + Effort = Merit. (A+B=C)

Ability + Effort = Money. (A+B=D) And Money = Wealth. (D=E)

Merit = Wealth. (C=E)

Minus inheritance, otherwise plutocracy = meritocracy.

[OkieEric]

Since we haven't gotten our daily Gallup poll update, I thought I would point out that McCain and Obama are now tied...and no, I don't place a lot of confidence in these daily polls, but it would be pretty interesting if McCain were to actually take a slight edge at some point

[west20th]

I've heard of people refer to a 'Republican boogeyman', but I didn't realize that they actually existed. Do they hide under beds or, like most homophobes, in closets? One way or another, it sounds like you need to call an exterminator.

Me personally, though, I wouldn't vote an exterminator into political office. Just pay them to kill bugs, boogeymen and such.

Try reading the Texas GOP party platform.

http://www.theocracywatch.org/texas_gop.htm

More than just a bogeyman, don't you think?

I couldn't agree more on having an exterminator in office. Delay never should have been elected.

Since we haven't gotten our daily Gallup poll update, I thought I would point out that McCain and Obama are now tied...and no, I don't place a lot of confidence in these daily polls, but it would be pretty interesting if McCain were to actually take a slight edge at some point

The polls will probably bounce around until after both conventions. I think the debates will clear things up a bit.

[houstonmacbro]

If this country votes in another Bush-clone after eight years of what we already have, then a lot of folks need to have their heads examined.

[Trae]

Since we haven't gotten our daily Gallup poll update, I thought I would point out that McCain and Obama are now tied...and no, I don't place a lot of confidence in these daily polls, but it would be pretty interesting if McCain were to actually take a slight edge at some point

I think this is the second time McCain has tied Obama. Also, maybe that Obama Nation book had something to do with it, though a lot of that book is lies. For example, Corsi's (the author), first 9 out of 11 sources for his footnotes are....himself. The New York Times is also putting a "dart" next to the bestsellers list, because the book was bought in big chunks by conservatives.

[OkieEric]

I think this is the second time McCain has tied Obama. Also, maybe that Obama Nation book had something to do with it, though a lot of that book is lies. For example, Corsi's (the author), first 9 out of 11 sources for his footnotes are....himself. The New York Times is also putting a "dart" next to the bestsellers list, because the book was bought in big chunks by conservatives.

Yeah, they were tied in late July for a couple of days before Obama resumed his usual 2-3 pt lead. With a 2% margin of error, I wouldn't take much out of this tie unless we see some sort of trend.

FWIW, electoral-vote.com also shows a slight tightening of the race at 275-250.

[Montrose1100]

What garbage, especially the flip-flopping part. McCain is the most flip-flopping of them all, AND it seems that Georgia had some part in this, too. Both countries were wrong.

It seems you want someone who's quick to anger and will make rash decisions to involve our military in armed conflicts on the other side of the world, even if our immediate safety is not at stake?

No, I want someone with balls and doesn't just deliver speeches to please the crowds. Especially the younger crowds who are so goo-goo-ga-ga over him. The same generation that is soooo "fed up" and anti-bush that they tie him to the republican party and tie that to "conservative", and believe every stupid blog over the internet bashing a side.

Obama sucks, McCain sucks a tiny bit less.

And we should be a bit tuff. If not, we'll get walked all over. And slightly off topic, thats why I love watching Mad Men. Ohhh America, when we had balls.

[Trae]

Yeah, they were tied in late July for a couple of days before Obama resumed his usual 2-3 pt lead. With a 2% margin of error, I wouldn't take much out of this tie unless we see some sort of trend.

FWIW, electoral-vote.com also shows a slight tightening of the race at 275-250.

Yeah, I saw that, too. It'll be like this until after both conventions.

[Trae]

No, I want someone with balls and doesn't just deliver speeches to please the crowds. Especially the younger crowds who are so goo-goo-ga-ga over him. The same generation that is soooo "fed up" and anti-bush that they tie him to the republican party and tie that to "conservative", and believe every stupid blog over the internet bashing a side.

Obama sucks, McCain sucks a tiny bit less.

And we should be a bit tuff. If not, we'll get walked all over. And slightly off topic, thats why I love watching Mad Men. Ohhh America, when we had balls.

Seriously now. This "just deliver good speech talk" was so Feburary. You have had months to look up Obama's stance on things. He has given several speeches on his policies and what he plans on doing as President.

And by bit tough, you mean, borderline going to war with Russia? I'm glad McCain is not president. He is war first, questions later:

OH NOEZ, THAT WAS TEH MSNBC!! Okay, watch this one:

[memebag]

And slightly off topic, thats why I love watching Mad Men. Ohhh America, when we had balls.

I think you're not watching Mad Men hard enough.

[Montrose1100]

Seriously now. This "just deliver good speech talk" was so Feburary. You have had months to look up Obama's stance on things. He has given several speeches on his policies and what he plans on doing as President.

And by bit tough, you mean, borderline going to war with Russia? I'm glad McCain is not president. He is war first, questions later:

Hope, Change, Change..... right out of our pocket books!

[Trae]

Hope, Change, Change..... right out of our pocket books!

Considering McCain is really no different from Bush policy wise and all, I'm thinking more change will be leaving our pockets and into ExxonMobil's wallets.

[Montrose1100]

Considering McCain is really no different from Bush policy wise and all, I'm thinking more change will be leaving our pockets and into ExxonMobil's wallets.

And in return, back into my wallet And the employees spend their money and help the economy. It doesn't just "stay" there, I'm sure one could track every penny to somehow helping us all out... not only with exxon, but with Walmart and every single company in the world. "I'm voting Democrat because: I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't. "

eriously now. This "just deliver good speech talk" was so Feburary.

But Trae, I don't feel the need to discuss in detail about what I don't like about Obama. I also Don't like McCain. You can show me all the videos on youtube against McCain, and I can make fun of Obama all I want with you, neither will change our minds. So lets agree to disagree.

[Trae]

And in return, back into my wallet And the employees spend their money and help the economy. It doesn't just "stay" there, I'm sure one could track every penny to somehow helping us all out... not only with exxon, but with Walmart and every single company in the world. "I'm voting Democrat because: I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't. "

Helps the economy huh? Where have you been? Middle class has been shrinking for a while now. That big money those oil companies and its employees earn stay up there.

I don't give a damn, another YouTube for you :

[Montrose1100]

Helps the economy huh? Where have you been? Middle class has been shrinking for a while now. That big money those oil companies and its employees earn stay up there.

Well then maybe the Government should give more tax breaks to the Middle class? And no, it does not stay up there. I see a lot of Middle class people here in Houston, where all the big, angry, evil oil companies live!

And Ohio and that area have been in decline from 'evil' Foreign companies since what, the 70s? Hardly McCain's fault. Funny how Obama supports this, yet who is traveling to Foreign countries?

You win some, you lose some. Its not called the "Rust Belt" for nothing.

[Trae]

Well then maybe the Government should give more tax breaks to the Middle class? And no, it does not stay up there. I see a lot of Middle class people here in Houston, where all the big, angry, evil oil companies live!

Obama is basically doing that, but maybe you should tell McCain he should. I see a lot of middle class in Houston, too, but that doesn't a mean a damn thing.

And Ohio and that area have been in decline from 'evil' Foreign companies since what, the 70s? Hardly McCain's fault. Funny how Obama supports this, yet who is traveling to Foreign countries?

Obama is visiting foreign countries because he is trying to strengthen relationships between the US and them (even though he isn't President). A lot of nations already see him as the President. Part of the reason why he left is because McCain kept saying "Obama doesn't know the situation in Iraq because he has never been there". Funny how once he went, the Generals and Iraqi Prime Minister agreed on Obama's plans and not McCain's.

Also, you seem to forget that McCain traveled outside the country, too. He went to South America. It didn't get much press coverage because no one really cared...

[BryanS]

I've heard of people refer to a 'Republican boogeyman', but I didn't realize that they actually existed. Do they hide under beds or, like most homophobes, in closets? One way or another, it sounds like you need to call an exterminator.

Me personally, though, I wouldn't vote an exterminator into political office. Just pay them to kill bugs, boogeymen and such.

Thanks, West20th. Using your link, I have found some of the following

[Montrose1100]

Obama is basically doing that, but maybe you should tell McCain he should. I see a lot of middle class in Houston, too, but that doesn't a mean a damn thing.

It does, blaming any corporation for the middle class gap is just ignorant. Look at Houston, and Aberdeen. In fact, look at all the Energy and oil related capitals and how healthy their economies are, and how their middle classes are doing. Do you want to take down every Fortune 500 company? Move to North Korea, this is free enterprise.

Obama is visiting foreign countries because he is trying to strengthen relationships between the US and them (even though he isn't President). A lot of nations already see him as the President. Part of the reason why he left is because McCain kept saying "Obama doesn't know the situation in Iraq because he has never been there". Funny how once he went, the Generals and Iraqi Prime Minister agreed on Obama's plans and not McCain's.

Also, you seem to forget that McCain traveled outside the country, too. He went to South America. It didn't get much press coverage because no one really cared...

I didn't forget, I was being sarcastic because your claims were ridiculous.

Anywho, I'm all for gay rights (duh) and many other things Obama supports, but I don't agree with almost everything else. Another catch 22.

[musicman]

QUOTE (Montrose1100 @ Friday, August 15th, 2008 @ 4:49pm)

Well then maybe the Government should give more tax breaks to the Middle class?

Obama is basically doing that

what is he doing specifically?

[Montrose1100]

QUOTE (Montrose1100 @ Friday, August 15th, 2008 @ 4:49pm)

Well then maybe the Government should give more tax breaks to the Middle class?

what is he doing specifically?

I'm all for tax breaks for the wealthiest, because they pay a grand percent of the taxes in this country. But the Middle class need a break too.

That's what I found as a state Senator in Illinois when we created the state Earned Income Tax Credit so we could put $100 million of tax cuts into the pockets of working families. That's what I've been focused on as a United States Senator, as I've worked to expand the child tax credit to include children in minimum wage families, and to close loopholes that shift the tax burden on to working people.

And that's what I'll do as President. Because when it comes to our economy, the American people are not the problem - they are the answer.

I'll restore simplicity to the tax code, and fairness for the American middle class. It's time to stand up to special interest carve outs. I'll end the preferential treatment that's built into our tax code by eliminating corporate loopholes and tax breaks. We shouldn't be distorting our tax code to benefit a few powerful interests - we should be insisting that everyone pays their fair share, and when I'm President, they will.

- Obama's Speech (cnn.com)

[20thStDad]

...the American people are not the problem - they are the answer.

- Obama's Speech (cnn.com)

Proof that Obama is a sound-byte wielding robot. Just insert that statement anywhere, and as meaningless as it is, they will love it.

[musicman]

the earned income tax credit is for the working poor, not the middle class.

[Montrose1100]

Proof that Obama is a sound-byte wielding robot. Just insert that statement anywhere, and as meaningless as it is, they will love it.

Thank you... I'm glad someone else thinks so.